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	<title>Comments on: McCain Proposes Prize for Battery Breakthrough</title>
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	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/</link>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-427095</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-427095</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Another problem with hydrogen is the lack of infrastructure to transport it to where it will need to be distributed.&lt;/blockquote&gt;There is technology in the works to use CO2 to convert Hydrogen gas into hydrocarbon gas, which could be transported using existing pipelines to people&#039;s homes.  Anybody with a gas furnace or oven could then re-fuel their vehicles at home from the same source.  The bonus of this is that it could be carbon negative, removing greenhouse gases while providing a usable fuel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Another problem with hydrogen is the lack of infrastructure to transport it to where it will need to be distributed.</p></blockquote>
<p>There is technology in the works to use CO2 to convert Hydrogen gas into hydrocarbon gas, which could be transported using existing pipelines to people's homes.  Anybody with a gas furnace or oven could then re-fuel their vehicles at home from the same source.  The bonus of this is that it could be carbon negative, removing greenhouse gases while providing a usable fuel.</p>
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		<title>By: another matt</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-427073</link>
		<dc:creator>another matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-427073</guid>
		<description>Another problem with hydrogen is the lack of infrastructure to transport it to where it will need to be distributed.  We already have a distribution infrastructure for electricity (although likely new &quot;outlets&quot; will need to be put in place).

I say if an inventor comes up with a super capacitor that meets the &quot;battery package&quot; requirements, she ought to get the $300 million.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another problem with hydrogen is the lack of infrastructure to transport it to where it will need to be distributed.  We already have a distribution infrastructure for electricity (although likely new "outlets" will need to be put in place).</p>
<p>I say if an inventor comes up with a super capacitor that meets the "battery package" requirements, she ought to get the $300 million.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-426643</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-426643</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The problem with hydrogen is that thermodynamics is completely against it. Compressing the hydrogen to such a degree that it represents a useful vehicle fuel requires a tremendous energy input, making hydrogen an uneconomic way of fueling your vehicle. By contrast, the theoretical power density of batteries is quite high.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Theoretically you can regain that energy when you decompress it, so that the only net loss is due to the inefficiencies of your pump.  Still, the main heat loss is in the creation of the hydrogen in the first place, since it&#039;s not readily available in gaseous form.

Batteries have the same problem, it takes more energy to charge a battery that is will discharge, plus you have breakdown of the chemicals in the battery itself.  Super-capacitors may be a more efficient alternative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The problem with hydrogen is that thermodynamics is completely against it. Compressing the hydrogen to such a degree that it represents a useful vehicle fuel requires a tremendous energy input, making hydrogen an uneconomic way of fueling your vehicle. By contrast, the theoretical power density of batteries is quite high.</p></blockquote>
<p>Theoretically you can regain that energy when you decompress it, so that the only net loss is due to the inefficiencies of your pump.  Still, the main heat loss is in the creation of the hydrogen in the first place, since it's not readily available in gaseous form.</p>
<p>Batteries have the same problem, it takes more energy to charge a battery that is will discharge, plus you have breakdown of the chemicals in the battery itself.  Super-capacitors may be a more efficient alternative.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey W. Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-426545</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey W. Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-426545</guid>
		<description>The problem with hydrogen is that thermodynamics is completely against it.  Compressing the hydrogen to such a degree that it represents a useful vehicle fuel requires a tremendous energy input, making hydrogen an uneconomic way of fueling your vehicle.  By contrast, the theoretical power density of batteries is quite high.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with hydrogen is that thermodynamics is completely against it.  Compressing the hydrogen to such a degree that it represents a useful vehicle fuel requires a tremendous energy input, making hydrogen an uneconomic way of fueling your vehicle.  By contrast, the theoretical power density of batteries is quite high.</p>
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		<title>By: Smurfyhoser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-426518</link>
		<dc:creator>Smurfyhoser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-426518</guid>
		<description>This is one of the ideas from McCain I&#039;ve kinda liked. But... why a battery, specifically? Matt&#039;s right: Hydrogen powered vehicles could benefit from this sort of incentive at least as much, and there are probably other options too. $300 mil could also subsidize the first generation of Honda FCX&#039;s pretty nicely (or a Detroit version, if they have one), and some of the incentives around getting hydrogen filling stations created. 

Is he serious about solving the problem? Seems like a half-baked stunt to exclude something so obvious. Sad, too, because I want to like him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is one of the ideas from McCain I've kinda liked. But... why a battery, specifically? Matt's right: Hydrogen powered vehicles could benefit from this sort of incentive at least as much, and there are probably other options too. $300 mil could also subsidize the first generation of Honda FCX's pretty nicely (or a Detroit version, if they have one), and some of the incentives around getting hydrogen filling stations created. </p>
<p>Is he serious about solving the problem? Seems like a half-baked stunt to exclude something so obvious. Sad, too, because I want to like him.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Hess</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-426443</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Hess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-426443</guid>
		<description>We could probably use the prize model to promote the development of a bunch of different alternative energy technologies. I think there was a bill a while back that was trying to set up an &quot;H-Prize&quot; for the development of hydrogen fuel cells. Not sure what happened to it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We could probably use the prize model to promote the development of a bunch of different alternative energy technologies. I think there was a bill a while back that was trying to set up an "H-Prize" for the development of hydrogen fuel cells. Not sure what happened to it.</p>
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		<title>By: John425</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-426442</link>
		<dc:creator>John425</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-426442</guid>
		<description>...and what if the Energizer Bunny or Duracel company wins?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>...and what if the Energizer Bunny or Duracel company wins?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-426431</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:37:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-426431</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The problem with this proposal is that the inventor of such a battery would stand to gain much, much more than $300 million just from marketing the device. The financial incentive for battery development is clearly there already. So what does the &quot;prize&quot; add?&lt;/blockquote&gt;The prize pays when you have a prototype, the market only pays when you have demand and production.  It&#039;s the difference between getting $300k after 1 year, or $3m after 5 years.  Sure the $3m over 5 years is more money, but investors would like the possibility of return (or at least reduction in debt) after only 1 year.

Take the Ansari X prize that gave us the first privately built space vehicle.  It cost way more to develop than the prize paid out, and stands to gain way more in revenue from the technology in the future, but it took the competition for the prize money to spur the initial investment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The problem with this proposal is that the inventor of such a battery would stand to gain much, much more than $300 million just from marketing the device. The financial incentive for battery development is clearly there already. So what does the "prize" add?</p></blockquote>
<p>The prize pays when you have a prototype, the market only pays when you have demand and production.  It's the difference between getting $300k after 1 year, or $3m after 5 years.  Sure the $3m over 5 years is more money, but investors would like the possibility of return (or at least reduction in debt) after only 1 year.</p>
<p>Take the Ansari X prize that gave us the first privately built space vehicle.  It cost way more to develop than the prize paid out, and stands to gain way more in revenue from the technology in the future, but it took the competition for the prize money to spur the initial investment.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Plunk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-426411</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Plunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-426411</guid>
		<description>I agree with Alex.  These prizes can make more sense than just funding research.  The prize is a tangible carrot propelling those who would not otherwise take up the task.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Alex.  These prizes can make more sense than just funding research.  The prize is a tangible carrot propelling those who would not otherwise take up the task.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Prather</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-426173</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Prather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-426173</guid>
		<description>Jeff,

Even if the battery is developed, there is still the risk that it won&#039;t sell for one reason or another and recovering a big chunk of the development money is an incentive alone.

In addition, when you&#039;re trying to direct peoples&#039; innovation and/or research this far ahead, a prize seems to bring people out of the woodwork to put forward their ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>Even if the battery is developed, there is still the risk that it won't sell for one reason or another and recovering a big chunk of the development money is an incentive alone.</p>
<p>In addition, when you're trying to direct peoples' innovation and/or research this far ahead, a prize seems to bring people out of the woodwork to put forward their ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: jeff b</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/comment-page-1/#comment-425664</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 03:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/06/mccain-proposes-prize-for-battery-breakthrough/#comment-425664</guid>
		<description>The problem with this proposal is that the inventor of such a battery would stand to gain much, much more than $300 million just from marketing the device.  The financial incentive for battery development is clearly there already.  So what does the &quot;prize&quot; add?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with this proposal is that the inventor of such a battery would stand to gain much, much more than $300 million just from marketing the device.  The financial incentive for battery development is clearly there already.  So what does the "prize" add?</p>
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