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	<title>Comments on: McCain Takes Lead After Convention Bounce</title>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512138</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 11:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think the real story of the polls is that the race is really too close to pick a favorite at this point.

I am not convinced thousands and thousands of brand new voters added to the roles are going to show up to vote in communities across the nation.

I am willing to bet turn outs in most places will be good and that the national popular vote will be very close-hard to say with the electoral vote.

Either way I still think Obama has the advantage, but it isn&#039;t in the bag.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the real story of the polls is that the race is really too close to pick a favorite at this point.</p>
<p>I am not convinced thousands and thousands of brand new voters added to the roles are going to show up to vote in communities across the nation.</p>
<p>I am willing to bet turn outs in most places will be good and that the national popular vote will be very close-hard to say with the electoral vote.</p>
<p>Either way I still think Obama has the advantage, but it isn't in the bag.</p>
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		<title>By: Zelsdorf Ragshaft III</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512119</link>
		<dc:creator>Zelsdorf Ragshaft III</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 03:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512119</guid>
		<description>I guess when Obama was leading in the polls we concentrated on how the polls were taken, who responded and by what device.  Facts are facts.  McCain leads Obama  outside the margine of error.  He does now and he will in the only poll that counts.  The one on November 4.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess when Obama was leading in the polls we concentrated on how the polls were taken, who responded and by what device.  Facts are facts.  McCain leads Obama  outside the margine of error.  He does now and he will in the only poll that counts.  The one on November 4.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512118</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 03:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512118</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why?&lt;/blockquote&gt;Hmmm, upon further reflection, you&#039;re right, weighting should be determined by census data, not sample size, so age weighting is out.

My second guess, then, is that there is an assumption that those without land-lines, technology early-adopters, are not being proportionately heard from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Why?</p></blockquote>
<p>Hmmm, upon further reflection, you're right, weighting should be determined by census data, not sample size, so age weighting is out.</p>
<p>My second guess, then, is that there is an assumption that those without land-lines, technology early-adopters, are not being proportionately heard from.</p>
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		<title>By: Fence</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512117</link>
		<dc:creator>Fence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Sep 2008 03:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512117</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The problem is that the weighting would be inaccurate&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The problem is that the weighting would be inaccurate</p></blockquote>
<p>Why?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512100</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512100</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If the poll weights for age shouldn&#039;t it largely address it? Or is there some suggestion that even among young people, cell-phone only would vote differently from young landline users?&lt;/blockquote&gt;The problem is that the weighting would be inaccurate for that age group, which is an age group that tends to favor Obama.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If the poll weights for age shouldn't it largely address it? Or is there some suggestion that even among young people, cell-phone only would vote differently from young landline users?</p></blockquote>
<p>The problem is that the weighting would be inaccurate for that age group, which is an age group that tends to favor Obama.</p>
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		<title>By: Fence</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512094</link>
		<dc:creator>Fence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 21:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512094</guid>
		<description>I assume that the main problem is that it is younger people who tend to have stopped using landlines.  If the poll weights for age shouldn&#039;t it largely address it?  Or is there some suggestion that even among young people, cell-phone only would vote differently from young landline users?

Seems like Caller ID would have similar impact, with wider demographic.  If I see a number I don&#039;t know, I let voice mail get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume that the main problem is that it is younger people who tend to have stopped using landlines.  If the poll weights for age shouldn't it largely address it?  Or is there some suggestion that even among young people, cell-phone only would vote differently from young landline users?</p>
<p>Seems like Caller ID would have similar impact, with wider demographic.  If I see a number I don't know, I let voice mail get it.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512086</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512086</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Not in and of itself; you could have ported a land line number to the VoIP line, and in any case a random dialer could hit your number if it is connected to the general exchange (i.e., if it&#039;s not, say, a free Skype account).&lt;/blockquote&gt;In my specific case, it was originally a Vonage number that was ported to my cable operator.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I&#039;m not sure if there&#039;s a listing in the database mentioned above for VoIP like there is for cell/land lines, but since there&#039;s presumably no additional charge for a VoIP line to receive a call my guess would be that it&#039;s closer to a landline than to a cell.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I wasn&#039;t so much thinking about that, but rather the fact that my VoIP line isn&#039;t connected to any geographic region except in regards to E911 routing.  Especially with Vonage (not so much with cable), you could plug your VoIP modem into any internet connection anywhere in the world, and your calls would be routed to you.  I could have signed up for the number in Maine, but be living permanently in California, so it becomes problematic for geography sensitive polls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Not in and of itself; you could have ported a land line number to the VoIP line, and in any case a random dialer could hit your number if it is connected to the general exchange (i.e., if it's not, say, a free Skype account).</p></blockquote>
<p>In my specific case, it was originally a Vonage number that was ported to my cable operator.</p>
<blockquote><p>I'm not sure if there's a listing in the database mentioned above for VoIP like there is for cell/land lines, but since there's presumably no additional charge for a VoIP line to receive a call my guess would be that it's closer to a landline than to a cell.</p></blockquote>
<p>I wasn't so much thinking about that, but rather the fact that my VoIP line isn't connected to any geographic region except in regards to E911 routing.  Especially with Vonage (not so much with cable), you could plug your VoIP modem into any internet connection anywhere in the world, and your calls would be routed to you.  I could have signed up for the number in Maine, but be living permanently in California, so it becomes problematic for geography sensitive polls.</p>
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		<title>By: Billy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512085</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512085</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I have a VoIP line, I wonder if that would prevent polls from contacting me. Anybody know?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not in and of itself; you could have ported a land line number to the VoIP line, and in any case a random dialer could hit your number if it is connected to the general exchange (i.e., if it&#039;s not, say, a free Skype account).  I&#039;m not sure if there&#039;s a listing in the database mentioned above for VoIP like there is for cell/land lines, but since there&#039;s presumably no additional charge for a VoIP line to receive a call my guess would be that it&#039;s closer to a landline than to a cell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I have a VoIP line, I wonder if that would prevent polls from contacting me. Anybody know?</p></blockquote>
<p>Not in and of itself; you could have ported a land line number to the VoIP line, and in any case a random dialer could hit your number if it is connected to the general exchange (i.e., if it's not, say, a free Skype account).  I'm not sure if there's a listing in the database mentioned above for VoIP like there is for cell/land lines, but since there's presumably no additional charge for a VoIP line to receive a call my guess would be that it's closer to a landline than to a cell.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512079</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512079</guid>
		<description>I have a VoIP line, I wonder if that would prevent polls from contacting me.  Anybody know?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a VoIP line, I wonder if that would prevent polls from contacting me.  Anybody know?</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512069</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512069</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s what the pollster.com article says, Bit:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Sampling -- The process of drawing of random sample of cell phone numbers is relatively easy and essentially the same as the &quot;random digit dial&quot; (RDD) technique for sampling landline telephone numbers. Here&#039;s the oversimplified version of how it works: Companies like Survey Sampling and Marketing Systems Group obtain listings of the special telephone exchanges (the first three digits of a seven digit telephone number) assigned for cell phone usage and draw a sample from all possible numbers that could occur within those exchanges. They randomly generate numbers from the pool of all possible numbers in those exchanges.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here's what the pollster.com article says, Bit:</p>
<blockquote><p>Sampling -- The process of drawing of random sample of cell phone numbers is relatively easy and essentially the same as the "random digit dial" (RDD) technique for sampling landline telephone numbers. Here's the oversimplified version of how it works: Companies like Survey Sampling and Marketing Systems Group obtain listings of the special telephone exchanges (the first three digits of a seven digit telephone number) assigned for cell phone usage and draw a sample from all possible numbers that could occur within those exchanges. They randomly generate numbers from the pool of all possible numbers in those exchanges.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey W. Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512068</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey W. Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512068</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a nation-wide database which notes which numbers are mobile and which aren&#039;t.  It is tied into the number portability database in realtime.  Telemarketers and others are required to use that database to avoid calling a number which pays a toll to receive a call.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's a nation-wide database which notes which numbers are mobile and which aren't.  It is tied into the number portability database in realtime.  Telemarketers and others are required to use that database to avoid calling a number which pays a toll to receive a call.</p>
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		<title>By: Billy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512067</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:10:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512067</guid>
		<description>Bithead, to answer your point about number portability, cell phones are generally unlisted numbers.  Unless you&#039;re dialing randomly, you know &lt;i&gt;exactly&lt;/i&gt; what kind of number you&#039;re calling and to whom you expect to speak.  Additionally, &quot;young people&quot; who don&#039;t have land lines would not have ported their numbers from a land line because &lt;i&gt;they never had one&lt;/i&gt;; their &lt;i&gt;parents&lt;/i&gt; did.  

I&#039;m not all that young myself, but haven&#039;t had a land line in years.  I do not receive telemarketing calls of any kind except for robo-calls, and even they are exceedingly rare.  The last time I was called or polled in an election, I had a land line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bithead, to answer your point about number portability, cell phones are generally unlisted numbers.  Unless you're dialing randomly, you know <i>exactly</i> what kind of number you're calling and to whom you expect to speak.  Additionally, "young people" who don't have land lines would not have ported their numbers from a land line because <i>they never had one</i>; their <i>parents</i> did.  </p>
<p>I'm not all that young myself, but haven't had a land line in years.  I do not receive telemarketing calls of any kind except for robo-calls, and even they are exceedingly rare.  The last time I was called or polled in an election, I had a land line.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512061</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512061</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I&#039;ve seen a number of Obama folks maintain that polls as presently administered are inaccurate because cell-phone-only users are not contacted (and many young people do not have land lines).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Pew aside, I have but two words:&lt;strong&gt; Number portability.&lt;/strong&gt; How would they know what kind of phone they&#039;re calling?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I've seen a number of Obama folks maintain that polls as presently administered are inaccurate because cell-phone-only users are not contacted (and many young people do not have land lines).</p></blockquote>
<p>Pew aside, I have but two words:<strong> Number portability.</strong> How would they know what kind of phone they're calling?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512056</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512056</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Another question with these polls is how they weight the RV and LV populations. In some states voter registration is radically increasing for this election. If the pollsters don&#039;t track it, their weights can come out wrong.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I agree, I think this year the likely voter screen may actually make the polls less accurate if they&#039;re relying on past voting behavior, given how many first-time voters we had during the primaries.  

Does anybody know if any of these polls took into consideration a combination of not voting in the general 2 and 4 years ago, but having voted in this year&#039;s primary?  And do they classify those people as likely voters or not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Another question with these polls is how they weight the RV and LV populations. In some states voter registration is radically increasing for this election. If the pollsters don't track it, their weights can come out wrong.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree, I think this year the likely voter screen may actually make the polls less accurate if they're relying on past voting behavior, given how many first-time voters we had during the primaries.  </p>
<p>Does anybody know if any of these polls took into consideration a combination of not voting in the general 2 and 4 years ago, but having voted in this year's primary?  And do they classify those people as likely voters or not?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey W. Baker</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/mccain_takes_lead_after_convention_bounce/comment-page-1/#comment-512053</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey W. Baker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25109#comment-512053</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always wondered if that effect is substantial or not.  You&#039;d think that, if it was a major effect, we would have seen its impact in 2004 when cell phone penetration and land line abandonment was well underway.  Personally, I&#039;ve never been contacted by a pollster, which seems to defy the odds given how long I&#039;ve been a registered voter and how frequently the polls are taken.

Another question with these polls is how they weight the RV and LV populations.  In some states voter registration is radically increasing for this election.  If the pollsters don&#039;t track it, their weights can come out wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've always wondered if that effect is substantial or not.  You'd think that, if it was a major effect, we would have seen its impact in 2004 when cell phone penetration and land line abandonment was well underway.  Personally, I've never been contacted by a pollster, which seems to defy the odds given how long I've been a registered voter and how frequently the polls are taken.</p>
<p>Another question with these polls is how they weight the RV and LV populations.  In some states voter registration is radically increasing for this election.  If the pollsters don't track it, their weights can come out wrong.</p>
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