When discussing healthcare, and the reasons that costs are going up, what if Bush had said, "Well Americans need to take more responsibility for their own health. I work out every day and stay in shape. Obesity is the main culprit in many diseases such as cancer, heart disease and diabetes, which are drains on the healthcare system. By the way, I noticed that John Edward's wife is just really FAT. She is an example of what I'm talking about. She is a prime example of the type of unhealthy fat ass who is a drain on our health care costs because she doesn't try to control it. So not only is he an ambulance chaser, his wife is a big fat health risk. Would you want HER in your insurance group?" OH THE OUTRAGE.

You just don't do this. You don't use the families of candidates to prove a point or to dig at the opponent's base.

It was a cheap shot, and all of you KNOW IT.

Bush tried to weasel his way past the question and Kerry unloaded on him with a good answer revealing the hypocricy (sic) of the conservative position regarding gay Americans.**

I posted over on Captain's Quarters on this topic and came here looking for positive reasons for Kedwards references to Mary Cheney. The main reason seems to be exposing hypocrisy (surprise!). Andrew Sullivan is at least clear: Bush and Cheney don't believe that gays are home-wrecking demons but want the votes of those who do. Really? That assumes there is a substantial gays-are-home-wrecking-demons bloc and Bush has appealed to them. What's the evidence? Matt Yglesias thinks that to know homosexuals is to love them, that Bush manefestly doesn't know any homosexuals, and therefore mentioning Mary Cheney proves . . . uh . . . well, what does it prove?

so Ken, as the local proponrnt of the hypocrisy theory, what WAS Kerry's point and in what way is Mary Cheney proof of it? What Kerry did was put *his opinion* in *her* mouth. That sounds like John Edwards channeling the thoughts of his client as she is being born.

Second, Ken, anybody, what is hypocritical about the conservative position on homosexuals? What *is* the conservative position on homosexuality and how does it concern the Cheneys?

And third, why is alleged hypocrisy a reason for Kedwards' gratuitous references to Mary Cheney?

Judging from Sullivan’s and other's comments, I suspect any responses to these questions are going to involve ranting at a fantasy right-wing boogey-man and other massive irrelevancies.

If it wasn't his intent to be derisive then what does it say about his diplomatic skills?

George Bush may have fired off a few cheap shots at him but he has left Kerry's family alone. And you know as well as I there are a few zingers there.

Yeah, but the problem is that when you are shown that your stakes are wrong (not to say all your stakes are wrong), you won't remove them. You keep them there. The president is a fine example of this. Condoleeza Rice even admitted they were wrong, but still went ahead anyways with their plans in Iraq.

A leader isn't someone who puts down a stake and sticks to it. If you can't admit to a mistake (something President Bush has never done), you can't lead. This is not a Republican attack, rather an attack on anyone who won't admit when they are wrong. If you are wrong, and you won't admit you are wrong, then things can never get better.

What do they say to alcoholics and drug users? Admitting your problem is the first step on the road to recovery? Bush made some mistakes (again, to be clear, he also did some things right), but by no admitting these mistakes, he is continuing to dig a hole we won't be able to pull ourselves out of.

While I don't think Kerry's remark was anything to be proud of (quite the opposite), the Bush response is even worse. The saying is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

I find it disturbing that our current administration, by focusing effort on this one line, is all but admitting this is the most important issue at hand. It's not. Their are other issues at hand that are much more important. Dick Cheney's daughter is not going to solve the problem in Iraq, it's not going to help Health Care and social services, it's not going to help bring in new jobs, and it's not going to help our foreign relations.

Indeed, Kerry may have made a mistake in saying what he said. But the reaction from the Bush camp/supporters is even worse. I guarantee you that Kerry, having said what he said, will not solve any of the problems. And nor will the Bush response. It's a waste of time, and frankly, the fact that the Bush camp is spending a lot of time on it is pretty scary.

It says to me, someone who is still leaving his options open (and as someone who voted for Bush in 2000), worried that this administration is not concerned about real problems.

Elizabeth Edwards better hope "Obesity in America" issues aren't refered back to her as an example...fair game I say... she paraded it around in the campaign ! Unless she's ashamed of her fat butt and celulite thighs ! What would Wendy's think ?

The Difference I see between Dems and Conservatives is that we put stakes in the ground that represent our stands and values. Dems just do an existenstial dance around these while trying to yank them out like so many Bush-Cheny lawn signs.
Do we really want to have more of the drifting policies and morals of the Carter-Clinton years ?. The popular theme now is that events will determine this election. Lord I hope not...I Pray it principles not events.

I agree with Anjin-San: where is the Vice President & Mrs. Cheney’s indignation when the far right spews hatred at gays? Or is it like Santorum says: hate is love.

And for all those who justify Bush's actions with War is Peace and talk about, "marriage doesn't matter when your dead!", (not addressing anyone or any one argument in particular, but I've heard this before) I say, "Give me liberty or give me death." Corny, I know.

This is the same thing: continually bringing up Mary Cheney, as if she is supposed to "stand in" for all gay republicans, is just narrow.

And the fact that it came up in two debates in a row makes the Dems look like they're using someone's personal life to try to drive a wedge between Bush and his base.

Oh wait, that was going too far. What a low blow. Ouch. What a dirty trick. Cheap shot. Kicking someone in the balls. Sleazy. Punching below the belt. Stabbing a defenseless homeless person. Referring to someone as grossly obese. Referencing "retarded children." Calling someone crazy and in need of prescription drugs. Talking about barebacking. What a lack of class.

How, you may ask? (What, isn't it obvious yet?) Well, think of it this way. There's something wrong with being gay. It's just too different. It's sick. If we accept it, then our society will go into decline. Our President and Vice President are doing the good work of fighting the gayness that threatens to harm America. At the same time, the Vice President's daughter is gay. Don't you see how unfair it is to point that out?

"Regarding health care, Bob, Michael Moore, who is grossly obese, as well as Elizabeth Edwards, who is decidedly overweight, show that this country needs to get serious about health care."

"One million families in this country need help caring for their retarded children."

"Even though my wife often looks and acts like she needs prescription drugs, I can assure you that the Kerry family does not have to worry about paying for them. How about the millions of Americans who, not as blessed as is the Kerry family, can't afford to pay for their medications."

"While gays in this country can't help but being that way, God bless them, there is a very real problem with gays and the practice of 'barebacking,' which is the act of having anal intercourse without using the proper protection. A recent case is the famous columnist and pundit Andrew Sullivan, who advertised in gay publications, under an assumed name, for an anonymous partner with whom to have unprotected 'bareback' sex. I have a plan that will educate all gays and lesbians about safe sex practices and the proper use of protection."

Yes, there are many things the Senator could have said, but didn't. I wonder why.

Bush lost all three debates. He can't possibly run on his record, which is pretty much a disaster. So now at crunch time we see signs of what is starting to look like desperation.

Where is the Vice President & Mrs. Cheney's indignation when the far right spews hatred at gays?

Even over a month ago, Cheney brought her up as being gay in a speech he gave as an example.

However, unless Mary herself said "yes that is true", how does Kerry and her Dad know for a fact that Mary's sexual relations with women are by choice or not? Maybe she is really a closet bisexual and only tells people she is gay.

In that case, maybe it would be valuable to issue a statement saying that "although being 100% straight or gay is not a choice, there is an underrepresented bisexual community in our country that suffers strong prejudice from people who are not, and the use of Mary Cheney as an example of a 100% gay person without her confirmation that she is shows the lack of respect for this seemingly substantial number of citizens."

James, for someone who touts his "outside the beltway" sensibilities, you seem to be as out of touch with American sensibilities as are those inside the beltway. Kerry's remark did not go over well with parents. Neither did Cahill's remark that Mary is "fair game."