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	<title>Comments on: Military Propaganda for Domestic Consumption</title>
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		<title>By: Pat Lang</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106414</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Lang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 16:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106414</guid>
		<description>I tried to make it clear in the post on my blog that my objection to Caldwell&#039;s oped lies in the intended target which is the American people.  I do not believe that seeking to &quot;guide&quot; the thinking of the American people is a proper or legitimate activity for the US armed forces.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tried to make it clear in the post on my blog that my objection to Caldwell's oped lies in the intended target which is the American people.  I do not believe that seeking to "guide" the thinking of the American people is a proper or legitimate activity for the US armed forces.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106328</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106328</guid>
		<description>M1EK:  C&#039;mon.  We haven&#039;t had a formal &quot;declaration of war&quot; since 1941. Most wars we&#039;ve fought since then--and there have been many--have been on pure presidential fiat.  All of Clinton&#039;s wars were done that way.  

The 1973 War Powers Act was an acknowledgment of that reality. Indeed, Nixon considered Congress taking back any authority over war making from the president so objectionable he vetoed it, requiring an override.   

Bush got an overwhelming authorization to use force from both Houses of Congress.  That&#039;s the modern way we &quot;declare&quot; wars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M1EK:  C'mon.  We haven't had a formal "declaration of war" since 1941. Most wars we've fought since then--and there have been many--have been on pure presidential fiat.  All of Clinton's wars were done that way.  </p>
<p>The 1973 War Powers Act was an acknowledgment of that reality. Indeed, Nixon considered Congress taking back any authority over war making from the president so objectionable he vetoed it, requiring an override.   </p>
<p>Bush got an overwhelming authorization to use force from both Houses of Congress.  That's the modern way we "declare" wars.</p>
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		<title>By: M1EK</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106219</link>
		<dc:creator>M1EK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 21:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106219</guid>
		<description>James,

That&#039;s not a declaration of war. It&#039;s an authorization to use force if diplomatic efforts failed. Not the same thing at all, and I know you know it.

Do you have a link to an actual declaration of war? I&#039;d really like to see one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>That's not a declaration of war. It's an authorization to use force if diplomatic efforts failed. Not the same thing at all, and I know you know it.</p>
<p>Do you have a link to an actual declaration of war? I'd really like to see one.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106206</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106206</guid>
		<description>Robert Prather, legal wars are defined by our treaty joining the United Nations. Per our constitution treaties, once ratified and adapted, become the supreme law of the land. So yeah, the war on Iraq, authorized by cowardice in the face of lies, is illegal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert Prather, legal wars are defined by our treaty joining the United Nations. Per our constitution treaties, once ratified and adapted, become the supreme law of the land. So yeah, the war on Iraq, authorized by cowardice in the face of lies, is illegal.</p>
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		<title>By: Cernig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106205</link>
		<dc:creator>Cernig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106205</guid>
		<description>James,

I love that bit about Pentagon propaganda being OK if used abroad. Ever read the UK&#039;s Daily Telegraph online?

Robert,

&lt;i&gt;the war isn’t illegal. Congress authorized it.&lt;/i&gt;

Given that this particular war may not be an illegal one. That&#039;s because of the clause that says the Congress authorized the use of U.S. forces to uphold UNSC resolutions on Iraq in perpetuity (there was no cut-off date in the wording). As long as the UNSC keeps asking for a multi-national force, the U.S. component of that force is legal in itself although some of its conduct may not be.

However, the U.S. Congress and/or president is simply not the final word in international law in exactly the same way as the British parliament is not or the Reichstag was not. It may be a pedantic point to Americans but I assure you it isn&#039;t to the rest of us.

Regards, C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>I love that bit about Pentagon propaganda being OK if used abroad. Ever read the UK's Daily Telegraph online?</p>
<p>Robert,</p>
<p><i>the war isn&rsquo;t illegal. Congress authorized it.</i></p>
<p>Given that this particular war may not be an illegal one. That's because of the clause that says the Congress authorized the use of U.S. forces to uphold UNSC resolutions on Iraq in perpetuity (there was no cut-off date in the wording). As long as the UNSC keeps asking for a multi-national force, the U.S. component of that force is legal in itself although some of its conduct may not be.</p>
<p>However, the U.S. Congress and/or president is simply not the final word in international law in exactly the same way as the British parliament is not or the Reichstag was not. It may be a pedantic point to Americans but I assure you it isn't to the rest of us.</p>
<p>Regards, C</p>
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		<title>By: cian</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106196</link>
		<dc:creator>cian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106196</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&#039;Arguments characteristic of political discourse, not political breakdown&#039;. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Is he mad? 3000 Iraqis dead in one month alone. Hundreds of bodies turning up with holes in their heads , put there by power drills. The prime minister clinging to power with the help of a Saddamesque crazy man and his militia. The army infiltrated by death squads. A police force whose only job is to act as the nations undertakers. American troops risking their lives to protect one sect only to have that same sect turn around the next day and kill them. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi professionals fleeing the country as fast as they can. Doctors butchered for attending to Sunnis. Doctors butchered for attending to Shiites.

If Caldwell&#039;s read on what is happening in Iraq makes James more comfortable with his own, fine. But for God&#039;s sake don&#039;t diminish the horror visited on thousands of Iraqi innocents every day</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>'Arguments characteristic of political discourse, not political breakdown'. </p></blockquote>
<p>Is he mad? 3000 Iraqis dead in one month alone. Hundreds of bodies turning up with holes in their heads , put there by power drills. The prime minister clinging to power with the help of a Saddamesque crazy man and his militia. The army infiltrated by death squads. A police force whose only job is to act as the nations undertakers. American troops risking their lives to protect one sect only to have that same sect turn around the next day and kill them. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi professionals fleeing the country as fast as they can. Doctors butchered for attending to Sunnis. Doctors butchered for attending to Shiites.</p>
<p>If Caldwell's read on what is happening in Iraq makes James more comfortable with his own, fine. But for God's sake don't diminish the horror visited on thousands of Iraqi innocents every day</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Prather</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106193</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Prather</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106193</guid>
		<description>ken,

You said: &lt;em&gt;Congressional cowardice is not justification for an illegal, immoral and unjust war.&lt;/em&gt;

One problem: the war isn&#039;t illegal.  Congress authorized it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ken,</p>
<p>You said: <em>Congressional cowardice is not justification for an illegal, immoral and unjust war.</em></p>
<p>One problem: the war isn't illegal.  Congress authorized it.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106189</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106189</guid>
		<description>M1EK:  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html&quot; title=&quot;Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq&lt;/a&gt;


... &quot;Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M1EK:  <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html" title="Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq" rel="nofollow">Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq</a></p>
<p>... "Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution."</p>
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		<title>By: M1EK</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106185</link>
		<dc:creator>M1EK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106185</guid>
		<description>&quot;This war was initiated by a duly elected president, who has since been re-elected, with the overwhelming support of both Houses of Congress.&quot;

Can you point me to the declaration of war which was passed by both houses of Congress, please? Thanks in advance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"This war was initiated by a duly elected president, who has since been re-elected, with the overwhelming support of both Houses of Congress."</p>
<p>Can you point me to the declaration of war which was passed by both houses of Congress, please? Thanks in advance.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Loser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106182</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Loser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106182</guid>
		<description>If Caldwell were to try to sell this honestly to his colleagues he&#039;d be laughed out of the room.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Caldwell were to try to sell this honestly to his colleagues he'd be laughed out of the room.</p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106181</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106181</guid>
		<description>James,
I think the problem is that a lot of people, including both Lang and myself, see the term &#039;propaganda&#039; as having an inherently spin-based, even non-factual, implication. It&#039;s all about salesmanship - trying to convince a group of people to support what we&#039;re trying to do. 

There&#039;s nothing wrong, in concept, with that target group being the US population, but the assumption is that if this were a legitimate national interest, we shouldn&#039;t have to stretch things, let alone make stuff up, to get popular support. Caldwell&#039;s piece doesn&#039;t give me much hope, either, being full of complete crap:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I don&#039;t see a civil war in Iraq. I don&#039;t see a constituency for civil war. The vast majority of the people want hope for their families, not to massacre their neighbors or divide their country.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
No shit, Sherlock. Has anyone ever really imagined that Iraqis _want_ a civil war?
&lt;blockquote&gt;No wonder no &quot;rebel army&quot; steps forward to claim credit for vicious car bombs and cowardly executions of civilians.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Huh? Is he serious? Or does he just think anything not accompanied by a Fox News runner blurb didn&#039;t actually happen? Militas performing executions, kidnappings, etc. are a pretty regular occurrence. But it gets scant coverage in this country unless it&#039;s directed at Americans.
&lt;blockquote&gt;I see debates among Iraqis -- often angry and sometimes divisive -- but arguments characteristic of political discourse, not political breakdown.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Except for when significant chunks of a party walk out on the Prime Minister...
&lt;blockquote&gt;The Council of Representatives meets here in Baghdad as the sole legitimate sovereign representative of the people, 12 million of whom braved bombs and threats last December to vote.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, a gov&#039;t whose leader we have undermined &amp; derided as ineffective &amp; would love to replace with Ahmad Chalabi...
&lt;blockquote&gt;No party has seceded or claimed independent territory.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Again, no shit. The various factions don&#039;t want control of _part_ of the country, they want _all_ of it. Secession is by no means a requirement for &#039;civil war&#039;.
&lt;blockquote&gt;I see a representative government exercising control over the sole legitimate armed authority in Iraq, the Iraqi Security Force.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
Really? So when US Army and Marine units perform patrols, raids, etc. without ISF participation (or after the ISF crumbles/runs away/starts shooting at our troops on the side of the insurgents) they&#039;re committing war crimes? Good to know.
&lt;blockquote&gt;I studied civil wars at West Point and at the Army Command and Staff College. I respect the credentials and opinions of those who want to hang that label here. But I respectfully -- and strongly -- disagree. I see the Iraqi people suffering from overlapping terrorist campaigns by extremist groups combined with the mass criminality that too often accompanies the sudden toppling of a dictatorship. This poses a different military challenge than does a civil war.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It poses a different military challenge to _US_. Not to the Iraqis. The reason their civil war doesn&#039;t look like ours is that in the 1860s, the US wasn&#039;t occupied by a foreign power with a vested interest in one side winning over the other. I&#039;ll admit, combining a civil war with a war against an occupying force complicates things slightly, but again - only for us.

While I understand the role of a military spokesman is to put a certain point of view forward, MG Caldwell&#039;s article is chock full of willful ignorance and total crap. I&#039;m with Lang here - this is propaganda in its worst connotation, and disgraceful for a uniformed officer to put forward to his own countrymen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,<br />
I think the problem is that a lot of people, including both Lang and myself, see the term 'propaganda' as having an inherently spin-based, even non-factual, implication. It's all about salesmanship - trying to convince a group of people to support what we're trying to do. </p>
<p>There's nothing wrong, in concept, with that target group being the US population, but the assumption is that if this were a legitimate national interest, we shouldn't have to stretch things, let alone make stuff up, to get popular support. Caldwell's piece doesn't give me much hope, either, being full of complete crap:</p>
<blockquote><p>I don't see a civil war in Iraq. I don't see a constituency for civil war. The vast majority of the people want hope for their families, not to massacre their neighbors or divide their country.</p></blockquote>
<p>No shit, Sherlock. Has anyone ever really imagined that Iraqis _want_ a civil war?</p>
<blockquote><p>No wonder no "rebel army" steps forward to claim credit for vicious car bombs and cowardly executions of civilians.</p></blockquote>
<p>Huh? Is he serious? Or does he just think anything not accompanied by a Fox News runner blurb didn't actually happen? Militas performing executions, kidnappings, etc. are a pretty regular occurrence. But it gets scant coverage in this country unless it's directed at Americans.</p>
<blockquote><p>I see debates among Iraqis -- often angry and sometimes divisive -- but arguments characteristic of political discourse, not political breakdown.</p></blockquote>
<p>Except for when significant chunks of a party walk out on the Prime Minister...</p>
<blockquote><p>The Council of Representatives meets here in Baghdad as the sole legitimate sovereign representative of the people, 12 million of whom braved bombs and threats last December to vote.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, a gov't whose leader we have undermined &amp; derided as ineffective &amp; would love to replace with Ahmad Chalabi...</p>
<blockquote><p>No party has seceded or claimed independent territory.</p></blockquote>
<p>Again, no shit. The various factions don't want control of _part_ of the country, they want _all_ of it. Secession is by no means a requirement for 'civil war'.</p>
<blockquote><p>I see a representative government exercising control over the sole legitimate armed authority in Iraq, the Iraqi Security Force.</p></blockquote>
<p>Really? So when US Army and Marine units perform patrols, raids, etc. without ISF participation (or after the ISF crumbles/runs away/starts shooting at our troops on the side of the insurgents) they're committing war crimes? Good to know.</p>
<blockquote><p>I studied civil wars at West Point and at the Army Command and Staff College. I respect the credentials and opinions of those who want to hang that label here. But I respectfully -- and strongly -- disagree. I see the Iraqi people suffering from overlapping terrorist campaigns by extremist groups combined with the mass criminality that too often accompanies the sudden toppling of a dictatorship. This poses a different military challenge than does a civil war.</p></blockquote>
<p>It poses a different military challenge to _US_. Not to the Iraqis. The reason their civil war doesn't look like ours is that in the 1860s, the US wasn't occupied by a foreign power with a vested interest in one side winning over the other. I'll admit, combining a civil war with a war against an occupying force complicates things slightly, but again - only for us.</p>
<p>While I understand the role of a military spokesman is to put a certain point of view forward, MG Caldwell's article is chock full of willful ignorance and total crap. I'm with Lang here - this is propaganda in its worst connotation, and disgraceful for a uniformed officer to put forward to his own countrymen.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/comment-page-1/#comment-106180</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/12/military_propaganda_for_domestic_consumption/#comment-106180</guid>
		<description>James, you are leaving out the fact that any support that Bush enjoyed for his war on Iraq was based upon Bush and his administration, and other war supporters, telling lies to the American people. 

That these lies intimidated Congress into giving him an excuse to attack is irrelevant to the issue. Congressional cowardice is not justification for an illegal, immoral and unjust war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, you are leaving out the fact that any support that Bush enjoyed for his war on Iraq was based upon Bush and his administration, and other war supporters, telling lies to the American people. </p>
<p>That these lies intimidated Congress into giving him an excuse to attack is irrelevant to the issue. Congressional cowardice is not justification for an illegal, immoral and unjust war.</p>
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