You must know the real story - or are deliberatly clouding the issues.
Iran conducted an act of war against the US in 78 with the occupation of an Embassy. Their puppet, Hezbola, attempted to forment a civil war in Lebanon. Further more their puppets are conducting a war from Lebanon and the Gaza Strip against the people of Israel. You also know they Iranian forces are in Iraq killing American soldiers. The Iranians have been at war with Lebanon, Israel and America for a long time.

I think anyone who compares the elections in N. Korea with the open and free (ask the U.N. elections counsel) is a fool and worth no more electrons or my time.

Regards,

Aside from the Republican Guards and other elite units, the Iraqi military was pathetic even under the iron rule of Saddam. There’s no tradition of courage under fire to build upon

I have to note that the Iraqis opposing the Maliki offensive and the incursion into Sadr City don't seem to suffer from the same lack of courage under fire that the Iraqi "army" units do, even they have no training at all. Why is that?

Lets review the accomplishments:

End threat of Saddam's WMD - Check. Accomplished in 1991 by Pres GHW Bush

Transfer tyranny from Saddam to various warlords - check

Spread democracy in the middle east - elections held. Very nice, but North Korea has elections too.

Create opening for Al Qaeda to establish itself in Iraq - Check

Counterbalance Iran - When was the last time Iran started a war? Why don't you check?

Was that a list of accomplishments?

If so, we need to add a few:

Remove the threat of Saddam's WMD - Check

Free the people of Iraq from tyranny - Check

Spread democracy in the middle east - 50% done (national elections conducted, on to the provencials!)

Discredit terrorist organizations within the territory of Iraq - Check

Co-opt the Sunni minority into the GoI - check

Train the ISF - In progress

Prevent Al Qaeda in Iraq from becoming a threat to the GoI - Check

Assist the GoI in establishing political control over the territory of Iraq - In progress

Counterbalance Iran - In progress

Regards,

Sorry, I had to go to work.
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Hal, can you not see the advances made in the competence/effectiveness of the IA/ISF in the last 12 - 18 months?
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No, quite frankly, I can't (see any progress). Rather, what I see is a massively corrupt state,
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Hey, it’s a third world nation…..if it’s as uncorrupt as S. Korea, I will be pleased!

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25+ billion wasted on a massively corrupt army riddled with militias.
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Militias that the ISF are attacking and de-arming . . . I am sure you a pleased at this turn of events.

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Are not these good things?
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Man, you sound like O’Hanlon - I'm starting to wonder if that isn't precisely who you are. Look, I'm sure there are good things happening. But if everything is as rosy as you say, then why can't we get out?
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I don’t know O’Hanlon…however, as I stated in my last post, we aren’t going to get out anytime soon. I don’t want us to. If we leave, then Iran will gain even more influence. That’s not just my opinion, but also the perception of the Saudi Officers I recently worked with. The problem in the ME is quickly changing from the ‘evil Israelis’ (who aren’t a threat to any ruling Arab families anyway) to the Persians from the East.

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The press corps is desperate - desperate for bad news.
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You keep throwing that out there, but by all objective measurements, they aren't "desperate for bad news" at all.
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Objectively, they want to sell papers/news time. The target population is no longer just the U.S. audience. Talking bad about America is a way to make money in many parts of the world. In case you haven’t noticed, the biased papers / news organizations / movies in the US are starting to lose circulation, ad revenues and box office revenues. Not to mention that numerous studies show a very liberal bias in most American news rooms.

Also, we haven't been very good at telling the good new. It may just be a price we pay for an independent press without govt. oversight. I price I am willing to pay BTW.

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After all, good news is not news.
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Dude, where's the good news?
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Have you been to Michael Yon’s site? The Long War Journal? Mudvillegazette? Any of other Milblog sites? MNC-Iraq’s site? Tons of good news is out there. It just doesn’t make the commercial news.

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The nature of the press is quite apparent and if anything, the fact that the press can't even leave the green zone without seriously taking their life into their own hands speaks volumes about the "good news' you claim is being suppressed in their desire to get the bleeding lede.
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That’s my point, during the Sunni Insurrection - they were using Sunni Stringers, now that the ‘Son’s of Iraq’ have joined the Coalition against Al Qaeda, where are these glowing reports of the ‘minutemen’? Many blogger’s are outside the wire seeing, reporting and learning the impact our forces are having first hand. Not reporting second hand rumors and propaganda.

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the impact of the Tet Offensive on our operations in S. Vietnam.
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My god. Vietnam. . . . .. Seriously, can we just stop . . . hand wringing over Vietnam? I mean, I was born under the sign of that quagmire in '62 and have had my fill of the bellyaching over Vietnam.
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Those who don’t study history are bound to repeat it's errors. I don't want to return to the days in which America was a defeated power abandoning it’s allies and friends. I joined the Army in ’76 and saw first hand what it took to rebuild it from that defeat – never again.

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They failed to break either the US or Iraqi governments and are now losing military, economic and political power.
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Wow, I would have been absolutely stunned to hear that the US was ever in danger of being "broken".
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We came very close to losing this war politically two years ago. Without the stubborn resolution of one man and a few Senators, we would have abandoned Iraq to the fanatics.

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That's the problem with your Vietnam framing - you can't seem to see this as anything more than a battle of wills with America when it's a civil war between Iraqis.
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Which civil war is this? The Baathist vrs the Puppet Occupier's Government, the Sunni vrs the Shia, or the Shia Govt vrs the Shia Militias, or is it the Iraqi Govt vrs the Iranian supported Militias? Looks like we have finished of the first two and are moving on to the last two. (psst. . . .that’s progress)

This is a battle of wills – Modernity vrs the Religious Fanatics. The question is, who will blink first. Is Osama bin Laden correct in stating we are a weak horse - a few casualties will send us running. Are we willing to stand and fight and bleed for individual freedom and religious choice? Are the Iranian Theocrats correct in that they can Hezbolize Iraq and drive us out? Or will we stand by our allies to construct a new political instrument in the ME? Our actions over the next decade will decide this.

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Just accept that we have found a way to achieve what was initially identified as success. A stable democratic government that is an ally in the War on Terror.
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Again, wow. Setting the bar somewhere around 3x the height of K2, aren't we? I don't think anyone –
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That was the original geo-political goal clearly stated following the removal of Saddam Hussein.

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At best we're going to get a stable religious theocratic government that's BFF with our buddy Iran.
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Wait, the IA and IP are fighting the Iranian Qods forces and their puppets (the Sadr Militia) to remove their political influence from Iraq – How does that lead to the BFF thingie?

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As I said, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining...
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The problem is you can’t recognize tinkling from the real thing. Look, this is just the way COIN is, two or three steps forward and one back. Heck, it took the Brits 15 year to end a counter-insurgency on an island in the South Pacific. We have made amazing progress in the last 18 months.

Take a breath and just make an honest evaluation. Understand that we. just. might. actually. establish. a. democracy. in. the. Arab. Middle. East.

What impact do you really think a functioning democracy might have on it’s neighbors? I don’t expect to change your mind with a couple of posts. Just step back and take a second look.

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We will have armed forces in that country for 25+ years as a counter-weight to Iran.
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No doubt. I'm sure all those people dying for this pipe dream have tears in their eyes as their last breath leaves them, knowing that this is so. Not to mention the high fives all their relatives have upon hearing that they're dead or horribly injured in pursuit of your madness.
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Relax. I have friends in this fight. I do not take their sacrifices, nor their families sacrifices, lightly. I loathe the loss of each and every one. I train the young officers (many who are going back for their 2nd or 3rd Army tour – that’s a 12 month plus per tour) who are going in harms way. I do not take a cavalier attitude about their service.

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On a strategic level, this nation can sustain indefinitely the loss of 1000 people a year for and the minimal amount of GDP we are currently spending. Political capital is another thing all together. That’s what worries me and why I am so concerned with the biased reporting.

Regards,

We will have armed forces in that country for 25+ years as a counter-weight to Iran.

Ah, So. We are in Iraq to:

Remove the threat of Saddam's WMD

Free the people of Iraq from tyranny

Spread democracy in the middle east

Counterbalance Iran

If the standard on being qualified to send US troops into combat now that you have to have military experience then MR and Mrs Clinton and Obama fail that test. Of course it did not preclude Bill from ordering US forces into several deployments (Somalia, Northern Watch, Southern Watch, Bosnia, etc).

Even if Maliki's forces eventually win in Basra, how is that a good thing? It's about political supremacy at gunpoint in advance of the regional elections, not establishing the rule of law. And Maliki's allies are more closely tied to Iran than Sadr has ever been. The National Council Of Resistance of Iran explicitly accuses the Badr Brigade and ISCI of being Iran's main proxies and of knowingly sheltering over a thousand Iranian agents in their higher ranks. Conservatives often cite NCRI as a reliable source when talking about Iran's nuclear program but when it contradicts the current Sadr=bad, Badr=good narrative it is sidelined and ignored. Unfortunately, other less partisan sources confirm that Maliki's "Persian Ex-Pats" are more beholden to Iran than any of their rivals.

And no, Mike, the desertion under fire of an entire 80-man company wasn't an isolated incident no matter how often you say it was. It follows a long line of such incidents including the over 1,300 desertions in Basra recently and stretching back to the wholesale desertion of the original Iraqi force in Fallujah. Deal with it.

Regards, C

It's like you guys really do live up to the stereotype and only get your news from Fox. My lord, just 30 milliseconds of googling would have turned up the answer for you.

Regardless in 10 years I predict that most everyone will say they were for it and supported 100%.

Really? How'd that work out with Vietnam?

Most polls I’ve seen says most people would like to get out but they want out under the right conditions and not just cut and run.

Cut n' run. Geebus. More proof that you really do have a mono culture of information sources. In any event, call it what you like, but from actual polls - not fantasy polls based on interviews with Leprachauns and
Michael O’Hanlon - demonstrate that almost half of Americans want us out in less than a year and just shy of 2/3 want us out in under 2 years.

But still, keep framing it as "cut n' run". I'm sure it's great thing for 2/3 of America to hear their position characterized.

Perhaps a few are staking their "reputations" on it, but given the fact that, even with the "good news" of the surge, over 2/3 of Americans simply want to get out and think the whole thing wasn't justified and a bad idea.

Guess democracy is good only as long as it agrees with you.

But hey, as a democrat, by all means push the forever war. Push it hard and call everyone who disagrees with you losers who only want to sap our POE. Regularly. Please.

Here is a snippet from the US army in some of its first major combat in WWII.

Meanwhile, Allied losses were staggering. Some units were completely devoured; some broke and ran; others fought bravely with inferior equipment. A makeshift British task force positioned on one flank of the mile wide Kasserine Pass was responsible for delaying the Germans long enough for important Allied regroupings to the rear.

We should have just pulled out of WWII then. Why fight on when such massive failure is all we can expect. Only the more experienced British units were able to step in and stave off defeat. We just can't expect the American army to ever be able to stand up and fight on its own.

Unfortunately quite a few people and just about the whole democratic party has staked their reputation behind the doom and gloom version of Iraq and it is influencing their ability to objectively view the Iraq war. As an example James declared from several thousand miles away that Basra was a defeat for Maliki and thus a victory for Sadr. Of course those a little closer to the action might see a bit more of what is really going on.

Having one unit flee or show lack of courage is nothing special.

Remember during the Panama we had a Bradley company who stop and refuse to advance until a light company of Rangers walk past them. For those who don’t know what a Bradley Company is, they have infantry with Armor vehicles with small cannons which have a great deal more firepower them a light infantry unit.

Thats true--of course a better example is Viet Nam when you had pro-War cowards like Bush, Cheney, Rove, etc... actively avoid combat and let their militaristic fantasies be played out by surrogates. A similar thing is happening here.

And there's also still the very valid question of whether the western-style military we're trying to turn them into is even appropriate or effective in this arena. That's a question I don't think has been debated much in the blogosphere, and I'm _certain_ it's never been addressed in the higher echelons of the current administration...

Remember during the Panama we had a Bradley company who stop and refuse to advance until a light company of Rangers walk past them. For those who don’t know what a Bradley Company is, they have infantry with Armor vehicles with small cannons which have a great deal more firepower them a light infantry unit.

Also had an old college roommate in the first Gulf war who with couple of his unit members told me a good story. They were in an ITV platoon. The platoon in front of them came across a column of tanks and they high tale it out of there. His platoon came on line and start shooting the tanks like ducks in a row. Then the M1s came up and finish the job.

Point of the story is that even the U.S. military with all its training have skittish units. Overall they are pretty good but there are always exceptions and it not necessary due to a lack of courage either. History shows that it takes a while for troops to find their rhythm.