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	<title>Comments on: More on the Honduran Crisis</title>
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	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/</link>
	<description>Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs</description>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1083281</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1083281</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;If the U.S. President was impeached and remove from Office and order by the court to leave the White House, wouldn’t force be justified or should he allow to continue?&lt;/em&gt;

Yes, but for a president to be impeached there is a multi-step, transparent process in which formal charges are filed and a trial held to determine if he should be removed.

It wouldn&#039;t be done in secret with the order executed in the pre-dawn hours with a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=16175&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; media blackout in place&lt;/a&gt; while he was forcibly exiled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>If the U.S. President was impeached and remove from Office and order by the court to leave the White House, wouldn&rsquo;t force be justified or should he allow to continue?</em></p>
<p>Yes, but for a president to be impeached there is a multi-step, transparent process in which formal charges are filed and a trial held to determine if he should be removed.</p>
<p>It wouldn't be done in secret with the order executed in the pre-dawn hours with a <a href="http://www.poliblogger.com/?p=16175" rel="nofollow"> media blackout in place</a> while he was forcibly exiled.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1083279</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If the U.S. President was impeached and remove from Office and order by the court to leave the White House, wouldn’t force be justified or should he allow to continue?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the U.S. President was impeached and remove from Office and order by the court to leave the White House, wouldn&rsquo;t force be justified or should he allow to continue?</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1083278</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1083278</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;There was no procedure to remove him or not to remove him so they broke nothing.&lt;/em&gt;

By that logic they could have shot him dead, as there is no prohibition against that, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>There was no procedure to remove him or not to remove him so they broke nothing.</em></p>
<p>By that logic they could have shot him dead, as there is no prohibition against that, either.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1083277</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 22:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1083277</guid>
		<description>“How is arresting and exiling an elected president a &quot;small infraction&quot;?”

There was no procedure to remove him or not to remove him so they broke nothing.

“Plus once you have removed an elected president by force, it becomes more likely that it will happen again.”

Again how else do you remove a President that defies the Courts, legislators and the Constitution?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“How is arresting and exiling an elected president a "small infraction"?”</p>
<p>There was no procedure to remove him or not to remove him so they broke nothing.</p>
<p>“Plus once you have removed an elected president by force, it becomes more likely that it will happen again.”</p>
<p>Again how else do you remove a President that defies the Courts, legislators and the Constitution?</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1082703</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 13:52:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If I understand properly what congress did was that it voted to accept Zelaya resignation after he had already been ousted.  So no, that&#039;s not the same thing as impeachment, it is instead an ex post facto action.

In regards to legitimacy, once your government has decided to do whatever it wants when it wants to, it damages its ability to claim legitimacy for itself. 

Plus once you have removed an elected president by force, it becomes more likely that it will happen again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I understand properly what congress did was that it voted to accept Zelaya resignation after he had already been ousted.  So no, that's not the same thing as impeachment, it is instead an ex post facto action.</p>
<p>In regards to legitimacy, once your government has decided to do whatever it wants when it wants to, it damages its ability to claim legitimacy for itself. </p>
<p>Plus once you have removed an elected president by force, it becomes more likely that it will happen again.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnG</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1082326</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 05:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1082326</guid>
		<description>When a Congress unanimously votes to remove the President from office isn&#039;t that a de facto impeachment?  Or is the position that since there was no impeachment process in the Constitution that therefore nothing Congress could have done would have been satisfactory?  Apparently Zelaya&#039;s popularity inside Honduras has plummeted since this fiasco began.  If just about everyone in Honudras agrees that what was done was justified then I don&#039;t understand how the legitimacy of the national institutions has been reduced.  Unless you believe that governmental legtimacy comes from some place other than the governed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When a Congress unanimously votes to remove the President from office isn't that a de facto impeachment?  Or is the position that since there was no impeachment process in the Constitution that therefore nothing Congress could have done would have been satisfactory?  Apparently Zelaya's popularity inside Honduras has plummeted since this fiasco began.  If just about everyone in Honudras agrees that what was done was justified then I don't understand how the legitimacy of the national institutions has been reduced.  Unless you believe that governmental legtimacy comes from some place other than the governed?</p>
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		<title>By: Trumwill</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1082214</link>
		<dc:creator>Trumwill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1082214</guid>
		<description>Whether he goes to jail or not is probably less important than whether or not he is the president of the nation.

We&#039;ll see what comes of it. Could well be that they made a tactical error. It&#039;s still not one I find outrageous.

I still think that most of the culpability falls not with the actions of those three bodies but with the failure of the constitution to give them a more legitimate avenue to attempt to remove a president from office.

It&#039;s likely that the (apparent) unanimity between congress, the military, and the courts would have met whatever threshold might have existed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether he goes to jail or not is probably less important than whether or not he is the president of the nation.</p>
<p>We'll see what comes of it. Could well be that they made a tactical error. It's still not one I find outrageous.</p>
<p>I still think that most of the culpability falls not with the actions of those three bodies but with the failure of the constitution to give them a more legitimate avenue to attempt to remove a president from office.</p>
<p>It's likely that the (apparent) unanimity between congress, the military, and the courts would have met whatever threshold might have existed.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1082095</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1082095</guid>
		<description>I never said there was an easy route here, just better ones than early morning exiles.

The irony is that he may yet find himself back in the country and in jail facing charges, yet empowered in the justeyes of some in the public and in the international community because of the coup.  These types of actions actions tend to have any number of unintended consequences and the situation is far from over.  The coup has taken a president who was creating an constitutional crisis and made him the victim and it has weakened the legitimacy of congress, the Supreme Court and the military.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never said there was an easy route here, just better ones than early morning exiles.</p>
<p>The irony is that he may yet find himself back in the country and in jail facing charges, yet empowered in the justeyes of some in the public and in the international community because of the coup.  These types of actions actions tend to have any number of unintended consequences and the situation is far from over.  The coup has taken a president who was creating an constitutional crisis and made him the victim and it has weakened the legitimacy of congress, the Supreme Court and the military.</p>
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		<title>By: Trumwill</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1082015</link>
		<dc:creator>Trumwill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1082015</guid>
		<description>Beyond attempts to block his plans, what do you propose should have happened to him? I thought I remembered you saying that he should serve out his term and be replaced in January. Was there anything on top of that which I missed?

What they need is a mechanism for impeachment. Beyond that, he could be convicted of a crime and still not be constitutionally removed from office. Honduras was likely in for six more months of the president trying to break the law and the courts and military trying to stop him. That strikes me as problematic, not the least of which because they could fail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beyond attempts to block his plans, what do you propose should have happened to him? I thought I remembered you saying that he should serve out his term and be replaced in January. Was there anything on top of that which I missed?</p>
<p>What they need is a mechanism for impeachment. Beyond that, he could be convicted of a crime and still not be constitutionally removed from office. Honduras was likely in for six more months of the president trying to break the law and the courts and military trying to stop him. That strikes me as problematic, not the least of which because they could fail.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1081636</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1081636</guid>
		<description>I will confess to some frustration at the moment, but mostly because people want to argue, but not read what I have written.  I never said that nothing should have happened to Zelaya.

And I find this formulation odd:&lt;blockquote&gt;Steve seems more outrage by a possible small infraction of their Congress, Supreme Court and military than the large infractions by the former President.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

How is arresting and exiling an elected president a &quot;small infraction&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will confess to some frustration at the moment, but mostly because people want to argue, but not read what I have written.  I never said that nothing should have happened to Zelaya.</p>
<p>And I find this formulation odd:<br />
<blockquote>Steve seems more outrage by a possible small infraction of their Congress, Supreme Court and military than the large infractions by the former President.</p></blockquote>
<p>How is arresting and exiling an elected president a "small infraction"?</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1081634</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Add on, Steve seem to say that the former President was wrong but no one should have done anything about since a process wasn’t already establish. I for one usually give an executive branch a good deal of leeway but this was out of bound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Add on, Steve seem to say that the former President was wrong but no one should have done anything about since a process wasn&rsquo;t already establish. I for one usually give an executive branch a good deal of leeway but this was out of bound.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1081632</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1081632</guid>
		<description>I am with Trumwill on this. Steve seems more outrage by a possible small infraction of their Congress, Supreme Court and military than the large infractions by the former President.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am with Trumwill on this. Steve seems more outrage by a possible small infraction of their Congress, Supreme Court and military than the large infractions by the former President.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1081629</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1081629</guid>
		<description>Snearing?  Not my intent, although sarcasm clearly was.

I stand by the basic point, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Snearing?  Not my intent, although sarcasm clearly was.</p>
<p>I stand by the basic point, however.</p>
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		<title>By: Trumwill</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1081626</link>
		<dc:creator>Trumwill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1081626</guid>
		<description>Dude, no reason to snear.

From my perspective, the president tried to do something outside his authority to extend his grip on power. Not something that should be taken lightly. In return, the court and the military did something outside their authority. Also not something to be taken lightly. I guess I&#039;m less inclined to be outraged at the latter because they stepped in and then stepped away leaving others (the legislature) to determine what happened next (who the next president would be). Had they said &quot;We&#039;re in charge until this is all sorted out&quot; or even &quot;This is the guy in charge now&quot; (and that guy had strong ties to the military), I would be much more alarmed. 
Instead, what appears to have happened (and if my perceptions are wrong, let me know), three branches of the government cooperated in the transition. That&#039;s very far from ideal, but also a quite different thing (in my mind) from the military stepping in and assuming control for itself. 

But the problem here is that the constitution (apparently) lacked provisions for removing the president. That is what needs to be changed. Then the military won&#039;t have an opening to intervene again (unless they are determined to be a part of that process). It&#039;s definitely not a good thing to have men with guns &quot;winging it&quot;, which is why rules need to be put in place. The system broke down. I find that far more scary than what happened, because what happened could have been a whole lot worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dude, no reason to snear.</p>
<p>From my perspective, the president tried to do something outside his authority to extend his grip on power. Not something that should be taken lightly. In return, the court and the military did something outside their authority. Also not something to be taken lightly. I guess I'm less inclined to be outraged at the latter because they stepped in and then stepped away leaving others (the legislature) to determine what happened next (who the next president would be). Had they said "We're in charge until this is all sorted out" or even "This is the guy in charge now" (and that guy had strong ties to the military), I would be much more alarmed.<br />
Instead, what appears to have happened (and if my perceptions are wrong, let me know), three branches of the government cooperated in the transition. That's very far from ideal, but also a quite different thing (in my mind) from the military stepping in and assuming control for itself. </p>
<p>But the problem here is that the constitution (apparently) lacked provisions for removing the president. That is what needs to be changed. Then the military won't have an opening to intervene again (unless they are determined to be a part of that process). It's definitely not a good thing to have men with guns "winging it", which is why rules need to be put in place. The system broke down. I find that far more scary than what happened, because what happened could have been a whole lot worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/comment-page-1/#comment-1081479</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/more_on_the_honduran_crisis/#comment-1081479</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;What is the due process that should have been followed? Absent a due process written into law, what precisely should have been done?&lt;/em&gt;

Yes, the ONLY option was exile.  It&#039;s so obvious.

Let&#039;s see:  his term was to end in January and if the Court coudl order the military to oust the president, I suspect they could have ordered them to collect the ballot boxes or any number of other things.

This notion that the ONLY way to solve this is arrest, exile and replacement of an elected president is laughable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>What is the due process that should have been followed? Absent a due process written into law, what precisely should have been done?</em></p>
<p>Yes, the ONLY option was exile.  It's so obvious.</p>
<p>Let's see:  his term was to end in January and if the Court coudl order the military to oust the president, I suspect they could have ordered them to collect the ballot boxes or any number of other things.</p>
<p>This notion that the ONLY way to solve this is arrest, exile and replacement of an elected president is laughable.</p>
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