Comments on: Naval Academy Giving Breathalyzers to Middies

By: Zaphod

Zaphod — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 18:20:27 +0000

"Unfortunately, the Naval Academy has had serious problems with its honor code and has scrapped it for a wishy-washy 'Honor Concept.'" Somone needs to tell Mr. Joyner to check his facts. The United States Naval Academy has always had an Honor CONCEPT rather than an Honor CODE. It has always allowed the Midshipmen to handle honor-related issues within their own ranks, and has worked quite well. It has NOT been "replaced" with a "wishy-washy" ANYTHING. Also, alcohol abuse is a CONDUCT violation, not an HONOR violation. Two different systems handling two different kinds of offenses. For the record, I don't like the new policy either because it treats Midshipmen like kids rather than as adults. Zaphod USNA '91

By: Boyd

Boyd — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:09:15 +0000

Yes, john, I'm aware of all that (I'm ~~retarded~~ retired from the Navy). I was just trying to poke fun.

One could go further and say there are also folks who graduate from the Naval Academy who get Navy commissions and yet never go to sea. Be that as it may, the Navy doesn't take too many hills, at least not in my experience.

Still, I agree with your point. I just tried to make a little joke at your expense. Sorry.

By: yetanotherjohn

yetanotherjohn — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:44:34 +0000

Boyd,

Check out how many middies become Marines. And believe it or not, I know of at least one USNA graduate who opted to fulfill their service in the Army. The graduates of the various academies are given the choice as to which branch they want to serve their commitment. Obviously they tend to stay with the branch their academy is most identified with, but that is not absolute.

By: just me

just me — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:38:56 +0000

And the other thing, the Navy is treating its future officers more like children than they do those in the Navy.

The policy really should just be simple-follow the law, show up on time for work sober (in their case class), and if you are hung over and screw up, face disciplinary charges for the screw up.

When my husband was in the Navy showing up for work sober was important, but the people in charge didn't care how drunk he got, when not on duty provided he could still do his job the next morning and he didn't do anything illegal.

By: frank

frank — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 10:35:07 +0000

apparently the academy is not concerned with preparing their students for their careers...pathetic attitude. Indeed another example of the weakened state of today's military. BTW, see ....http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060914/hl_afp/afplifestylehealthalcohol

By: Richard Gardner

Richard Gardner — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 05:09:08 +0000

I can't find any numbers on a cursory search on the number of prior-enlisted Middies, and Napsters (Naval Academy Prep School), but I'd guess that at least 20% of the Middies are at least 19 years old when they enter the academy, and probably 15% are 20+ when they enter (could be as old as 23 per the USNA website). So we now have a Nanny State telling folks to not get too drunk.

What most outside the military do not know about is the significant number of enlisted that are accepted into the military academies.

By: Ray

Ray — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 02:56:23 +0000

So much for "a drunk in every port."

By: Boyd

Boyd — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 01:01:41 +0000

yaj: There aren't too many hills at sea, but I don't think that minor discrepancy undermines your point.

By: just me

just me — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 00:02:30 +0000

I think the drink limit policy is stupid. Not to mention that everyone is different, three drinks for me isn't going to register the same as three drinks for somebody else, especially in the case of women, who tend to get drunk faster and stay drunk longer.

I think having a policy against illegal drinking for underage students is fine (although I think the 21 drinking age is stupid and should be lowered to 18), but breathalizers should only be given with some cause.

I think a referral for substance abuse treatment for anyone who blows more than the legal limit is absolutely rediculous. Just because somebody drinks, and may even drink a little too much on a given occassion that doesn't mean they have a substance abuse problem. A referral for discipline if it violates rules is one thing, but the assumption that getting drunk means they have a problem is over the top IMO.

By: yetanotherjohn

yetanotherjohn — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:24:25 +0000

I heard one West Pointer explain their "no lying" policy very well. If you radio "Captain, did you take the hill?", then you want to be able to trust the answer. And when you get to the point that you can not trust the answer, all sorts of things break down. If they can't trust them with the question "Did you have more than three drinks tonight?" then how do they expect to trust them with the question "Did you take the hill?".

By: James Joyner

James Joyner — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:44:54 +0000

Anderson: LOL

Triumph: Although the BAC caveat rather reins that one in.

By: Anderson

Anderson — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:44:09 +0000

Neptunus Lex contrasts this treatment with the way the British Navy handles alcohol, which is to treat its sailors as adults

Rum, sodomy, & the lash ... we're batting 0 for 3.

By: Triumph

Triumph — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:17:10 +0000

...are limited to three drinks on a given night

You can bet that all of the savvy tavern owners in Annapolis will start selling 12oz glasses of Scotch and 40oz "mugs" of beer. If you're limited to three drinks, they better be big!

By: Mythilt

Mythilt — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:09:14 +0000

The honor codes of VMI and The Citidel are extremely strict, and have at their core the same statement as West Points. And they are not followed out of fear, but out of respect of what is right. I'd say that the Naval change is the one that has decided to go the route of fear, the fear of critisism from actually requiring future leaders to actually be responsible for their actions.