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	<title>Comments on: Netroots The Left&#8217;s New Machine</title>
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		<title>By: Bluey Blog &#124; Robert B. Bluey &#187; The Leftosphere&#8217;s Activists vs. the Rightosphere&#8217;s Pundits</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123180</link>
		<dc:creator>Bluey Blog &#124; Robert B. Bluey &#187; The Leftosphere&#8217;s Activists vs. the Rightosphere&#8217;s Pundits</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 02:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123180</guid>
		<description>[...] Jonathan Chait&#8217;s lengthy article in The New Republic has generated much debate among bloggers. One post, by James Joyner at Outside the Beltway, convinced me to weigh in on the subject. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Jonathan Chait&#8217;s lengthy article in The New Republic has generated much debate among bloggers. One post, by James Joyner at Outside the Beltway, convinced me to weigh in on the subject. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123137</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 19:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123137</guid>
		<description>A follow-up:  something I noticed about Chait&#039;s article is that, aside from being light on empirics (as Easterbrook pointed out), it doesn&#039;t speak about truth, or facts.  The whole point of journalistic process, &#039;faireness&#039;, &#039;objectivity&#039; is to encourage fact-finding and the dissemination of truth.  Without that, the process is worthless.  But Chait doesn&#039;t seem to think that that is worth mentioning.  Possibly partly because he works for TNR, whose record on the war is not something that he&#039;d like to bring up.  But also because the elites of the MSM haven&#039;t been all that concerned about truth, for the past couple of decades.  They find &#039;he said, she said&#039; stories to be more their style.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A follow-up:  something I noticed about Chait's article is that, aside from being light on empirics (as Easterbrook pointed out), it doesn't speak about truth, or facts.  The whole point of journalistic process, 'faireness', 'objectivity' is to encourage fact-finding and the dissemination of truth.  Without that, the process is worthless.  But Chait doesn't seem to think that that is worth mentioning.  Possibly partly because he works for TNR, whose record on the war is not something that he'd like to bring up.  But also because the elites of the MSM haven't been all that concerned about truth, for the past couple of decades.  They find 'he said, she said' stories to be more their style.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123135</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 19:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123135</guid>
		<description>I have to second the critiques of Douthat&#039;s comment.  The raw, screaming hatred of President Clinton was not just a Freeper phenomenon- it was talk radio and numerous magazines.  The allegedly liberal elite media people never found a rumor that they weren&#039;t willing to print, even from paid Republican operatives.  They kicked President Clinton even as he left the White House, then suddenly decided that they had been mistaken, and that they should be soft and cuddly towards the President (Bush).

As Bush has scr*wed the country, the media spent years quite happily going along with the GOP theme of &#039;opposition = treason&#039;.  The allegedly liberal media did not lead opposition to the war, or to Bush - it followed the American people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to second the critiques of Douthat's comment.  The raw, screaming hatred of President Clinton was not just a Freeper phenomenon- it was talk radio and numerous magazines.  The allegedly liberal elite media people never found a rumor that they weren't willing to print, even from paid Republican operatives.  They kicked President Clinton even as he left the White House, then suddenly decided that they had been mistaken, and that they should be soft and cuddly towards the President (Bush).</p>
<p>As Bush has scr*wed the country, the media spent years quite happily going along with the GOP theme of 'opposition = treason'.  The allegedly liberal media did not lead opposition to the war, or to Bush - it followed the American people.</p>
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		<title>By: jpe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123119</link>
		<dc:creator>jpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 17:48:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123119</guid>
		<description>Y&#039;know, my reading is above is less than charitable.  Consider it stricken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Y'know, my reading is above is less than charitable.  Consider it stricken.</p>
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		<title>By: jpe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123117</link>
		<dc:creator>jpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 17:45:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123117</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;While the left still dominated academe and the most influential newspapers, they couldn’t command an audience anymore.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If the author can&#039;t tell the difference between the Times and The Nation, I&#039;d question his intelligence.

The more reasonable interpretation is that the distinction between The Nation and the Times is elided to score political points (&#039;no one will buy what the left is selling!&#039; being the implication of the passage above).  And that&#039;s not surprising; this is a good conservative blog, but conservative nonethless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>While the left still dominated academe and the most influential newspapers, they couldn&rsquo;t command an audience anymore.</p></blockquote>
<p>If the author can't tell the difference between the Times and The Nation, I'd question his intelligence.</p>
<p>The more reasonable interpretation is that the distinction between The Nation and the Times is elided to score political points ('no one will buy what the left is selling!' being the implication of the passage above).  And that's not surprising; this is a good conservative blog, but conservative nonethless.</p>
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		<title>By: carpeicthus</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123110</link>
		<dc:creator>carpeicthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 17:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123110</guid>
		<description>Not quite true -- only when waging war on a whim. With actual provocation there&#039;s a different story. Most liberal bloggers supported the war in Afghanistan despite deep reservations about the leadership -- reservations that quickly proved correct when they screwed it up in pretty severe ways. And that was against a nation that was harboring the people who attacked us. If a nation provided a direct attack, France&#039;s support would be nice, but very few people would lose any sleep over it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not quite true -- only when waging war on a whim. With actual provocation there's a different story. Most liberal bloggers supported the war in Afghanistan despite deep reservations about the leadership -- reservations that quickly proved correct when they screwed it up in pretty severe ways. And that was against a nation that was harboring the people who attacked us. If a nation provided a direct attack, France's support would be nice, but very few people would lose any sleep over it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Hackbarth</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123108</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Hackbarth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 17:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123108</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The left sees these policies as actively endangering the existence of this nation that - believe it or not! - liberals love too. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;d take it a little farther in that the Left has a different vision for America. On foreign policy for example they want American force only to be used with permission from other nations through organizations like the U.N. Requiring France&#039;s permission to do anything is absurd if you&#039;re the leader of the free world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The left sees these policies as actively endangering the existence of this nation that - believe it or not! - liberals love too. </p></blockquote>
<p>I'd take it a little farther in that the Left has a different vision for America. On foreign policy for example they want American force only to be used with permission from other nations through organizations like the U.N. Requiring France's permission to do anything is absurd if you're the leader of the free world.</p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123080</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 15:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123080</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The Left objects to the Bush/Cheney policies.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I&#039;d say it a bit more strongly than that, though. The left sees these policies as actively endangering the existence of this nation that - believe it or not! - liberals love too. The hard-right religious base&#039;s efforts to unify church &amp; state, the replacement of scientific evidence &amp; experiment with dogma &amp; evangelical teachings, the placement of party politics above any other concern, including basic national security, the entire concept of a &#039;permanent majority party&#039;, the list goes on and on. 

The derision and insult level is further enhanced by the right&#039;s reflection of Bush&#039;s own personality &amp; management philosophy - he &amp; the GOP actively define themselves, not just as Americans, but as capital-A AMERICA. It&#039;s in all the rhetoric - if you don&#039;t support with Bush, you don&#039;t support America, if you work against the Republicans, you&#039;re working against America, if you&#039;re not out beating the drums for the nearest GOP candidate, you must be supporting the terrorists, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The Left objects to the Bush/Cheney policies.</p></blockquote>
<p>I'd say it a bit more strongly than that, though. The left sees these policies as actively endangering the existence of this nation that - believe it or not! - liberals love too. The hard-right religious base's efforts to unify church &amp; state, the replacement of scientific evidence &amp; experiment with dogma &amp; evangelical teachings, the placement of party politics above any other concern, including basic national security, the entire concept of a 'permanent majority party', the list goes on and on. </p>
<p>The derision and insult level is further enhanced by the right's reflection of Bush's own personality &amp; management philosophy - he &amp; the GOP actively define themselves, not just as Americans, but as capital-A AMERICA. It's in all the rhetoric - if you don't support with Bush, you don't support America, if you work against the Republicans, you're working against America, if you're not out beating the drums for the nearest GOP candidate, you must be supporting the terrorists, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123078</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 14:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123078</guid>
		<description>Mark,

It isn&#039;t so much that I don&#039;t understand what he means, it is that I have found, for years, that his style of bloggging sophomoric.  I was actually extremely surprised when I learned that he had a Ph.D. in economics.  It read to me like a bright college kid who still thought that ranting was a form of argumentation.

It isn&#039;t that I can&#039;t take a little ranting, and I read some blogs that are hardly paragons of rhetorical virtue.  Still, I don&#039;t find Black&#039;s style to be especially impressive or useful and think that, on balance, it appeals to our baser instincts (like many blogs do, both left and right) rather than actually being enlightening.

Of course, on balance it is the blogs that engage in confrontation politics that get the most traffic, so clearly I am not in the majority in my views.

For what it is worth, I stopped listening to Rush Limbaugh (and partisan talk radio in general) years ago because I got sick of everything being about scoring political points and ranting/emotion masquerading as analysis and thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,</p>
<p>It isn't so much that I don't understand what he means, it is that I have found, for years, that his style of bloggging sophomoric.  I was actually extremely surprised when I learned that he had a Ph.D. in economics.  It read to me like a bright college kid who still thought that ranting was a form of argumentation.</p>
<p>It isn't that I can't take a little ranting, and I read some blogs that are hardly paragons of rhetorical virtue.  Still, I don't find Black's style to be especially impressive or useful and think that, on balance, it appeals to our baser instincts (like many blogs do, both left and right) rather than actually being enlightening.</p>
<p>Of course, on balance it is the blogs that engage in confrontation politics that get the most traffic, so clearly I am not in the majority in my views.</p>
<p>For what it is worth, I stopped listening to Rush Limbaugh (and partisan talk radio in general) years ago because I got sick of everything being about scoring political points and ranting/emotion masquerading as analysis and thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: carpeicthus</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123075</link>
		<dc:creator>carpeicthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 14:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123075</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;But it&#039;s clearly much more personal than that--even moreso than the Right&#039;s animus toward Bill Clinton. &lt;/em&gt;

I disagree strongly. I read FreeRepulic throughout the Clinton years -- it was far more personal than policy-based. The entire notion that Clinton was a liberal Democrat was personal, not policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>But it's clearly much more personal than that--even moreso than the Right's animus toward Bill Clinton. </em></p>
<p>I disagree strongly. I read FreeRepulic throughout the Clinton years -- it was far more personal than policy-based. The entire notion that Clinton was a liberal Democrat was personal, not policy.</p>
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		<title>By: carpeicthus</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123074</link>
		<dc:creator>carpeicthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 14:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123074</guid>
		<description>Re: blogs vs. talk radio, could it simply be that more liberals know how to read?

I kid because I care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: blogs vs. talk radio, could it simply be that more liberals know how to read?</p>
<p>I kid because I care.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123071</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 14:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123071</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Then again, we are talking about someone who seems to think that labeling people a &quot;wanker&quot; is analysis and/or humor.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think it&#039;s quite this simple. Here&#039;s my take:

Black has done a lot of analysis over the years. Those of us that read him regularly think we understand the point he is making when he labels someone a &#039;wanker&#039;. He doesn&#039;t even have to be explicit about the analysis since it is so obvious. If he did analyze every situation he posts about, he would end up repeating himself since he has analyzed many similar situations in the past.

The choice of the word &#039;wanker&#039; is unimportant, any sarcastic or slightly derogatory word would do as well.

I&#039;m not sure what the closest analogy on the right would be? Maybe Instapundit and his &quot;heh&quot; and &quot;indeeds&quot; or whatever he says these days?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Then again, we are talking about someone who seems to think that labeling people a "wanker" is analysis and/or humor.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don't think it's quite this simple. Here's my take:</p>
<p>Black has done a lot of analysis over the years. Those of us that read him regularly think we understand the point he is making when he labels someone a 'wanker'. He doesn't even have to be explicit about the analysis since it is so obvious. If he did analyze every situation he posts about, he would end up repeating himself since he has analyzed many similar situations in the past.</p>
<p>The choice of the word 'wanker' is unimportant, any sarcastic or slightly derogatory word would do as well.</p>
<p>I'm not sure what the closest analogy on the right would be? Maybe Instapundit and his "heh" and "indeeds" or whatever he says these days?</p>
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		<title>By: Trackback - Powered by HaloScan.com</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123070</link>
		<dc:creator>Trackback - Powered by HaloScan.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 14:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Trackback URL for this entry:http://haloscan.com/tb/atrios/5203574550976484713Netroots The Left&#8217;s New MachineExcerpt: Jonathan Chait has a longish cover piece in TNR entitled, &#8220;The Left&#8217;s New Machine: How the netroots became the most important mass movement in U.S. politics.&#8221; What particularly struck me was this: The most significant fact of Ameri...Weblog: Outside The Beltway &#124; OTBTracked: 05.02.07 - 5:06 am [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Trackback URL for this entry:http://haloscan.com/tb/atrios/5203574550976484713Netroots The Left&#8217;s New MachineExcerpt: Jonathan Chait has a longish cover piece in TNR entitled, &#8220;The Left&#8217;s New Machine: How the netroots became the most important mass movement in U.S. politics.&#8221; What particularly struck me was this: The most significant fact of Ameri...Weblog: Outside The Beltway | OTBTracked: 05.02.07 - 5:06 am [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--></p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123068</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 14:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123068</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The Left objects to the Bush/Cheney policies.&lt;/em&gt;

No doubt.  But it&#039;s clearly much more personal than that--even moreso than the Right&#039;s animus toward Bill Clinton.  Indeed, even before the flap over the 2000 recount, there was a personal dislike of Bush and Cheney.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The Left objects to the Bush/Cheney policies.</em></p>
<p>No doubt.  But it's clearly much more personal than that--even moreso than the Right's animus toward Bill Clinton.  Indeed, even before the flap over the 2000 recount, there was a personal dislike of Bush and Cheney.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/comment-page-1/#comment-123065</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 13:40:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/05/netroots_the_lefts_new_machine/#comment-123065</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Douthat is right that much of the netroots is fueled by anti-Bush-Cheney rage.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This framing always bothers me. I read it as implying a mindless anger against Bush/Cheney on a personal level. Am I reading too much into your phrasing? If so, I apologize.

The Left objects to the Bush/Cheney policies.

Anytime the Left says something disparaging about Bush/Cheney personally, they are playing into the Right&#039;s hands by allowing the Right to dismiss the Left&#039;s arguments with their cute phrases like &quot;BDS&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Douthat is right that much of the netroots is fueled by anti-Bush-Cheney rage.</p></blockquote>
<p>This framing always bothers me. I read it as implying a mindless anger against Bush/Cheney on a personal level. Am I reading too much into your phrasing? If so, I apologize.</p>
<p>The Left objects to the Bush/Cheney policies.</p>
<p>Anytime the Left says something disparaging about Bush/Cheney personally, they are playing into the Right's hands by allowing the Right to dismiss the Left's arguments with their cute phrases like "BDS".</p>
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