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	<title>Comments on: Newsweek Retracts Account of Koran Abuse by U.S. Military</title>
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		<title>By: Not Remotely Work-Safe Relevance &#167; Unqualified Offerings</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-49335</link>
		<dc:creator>Not Remotely Work-Safe Relevance &#167; Unqualified Offerings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Jun 2005 15:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-49335</guid>
		<description>[...] your RSS feed, I was struck by a quotable passage, and one too many howler monkeys  in the OTB comments sections has pushed me over the edge:   She showed her teeth. &#039;It sounds to me lik [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] your RSS feed, I was struck by a quotable passage, and one too many howler monkeys  in the OTB comments sections has pushed me over the edge:   She showed her teeth. 'It sounds to me lik [...]</p>
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		<title>By: McGuffin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46351</link>
		<dc:creator>McGuffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 22:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46351</guid>
		<description>Fersboo,

Your first two examples differ greatly from the level of detail found in and length of the Pentagon memo.

Your third example proves my point - the Pentagon issues these types of memos AFTER a screw up, i.e., after they became aware that abuse was occurring.

The Pentagon was wrong about everything in this war (troop strength, greeted as liberators, Iraqi oil would pay for the reconstruction, etc.).  It&#039;s hard to believe that they would have had accurate foresight on this issue either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fersboo,</p>
<p>Your first two examples differ greatly from the level of detail found in and length of the Pentagon memo.</p>
<p>Your third example proves my point - the Pentagon issues these types of memos AFTER a screw up, i.e., after they became aware that abuse was occurring.</p>
<p>The Pentagon was wrong about everything in this war (troop strength, greeted as liberators, Iraqi oil would pay for the reconstruction, etc.).  It's hard to believe that they would have had accurate foresight on this issue either.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46264</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 14:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46264</guid>
		<description>Jim: I see what you&#039;re saying. From what I can gather from the media accounts, the Koran allegations were clearly part of the issue, since there was a lot of chanting and sign holding emphasizing that aspect.  I&#039;m sure the generals are right, though, that the internal politics were more important.  

There&#039;s no way to know the relative impact of the two things, of course, since they overlapped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim: I see what you're saying. From what I can gather from the media accounts, the Koran allegations were clearly part of the issue, since there was a lot of chanting and sign holding emphasizing that aspect.  I'm sure the generals are right, though, that the internal politics were more important.  </p>
<p>There's no way to know the relative impact of the two things, of course, since they overlapped.</p>
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		<title>By: Fersboo</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46248</link>
		<dc:creator>Fersboo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 10:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46248</guid>
		<description>McGuffin wrote:
&#039;This begs the question, why did the Pentagon even need to issue that rule in the first place?&#039;

Because the Pentagon is always issuing dumbass rules to protect the sensetivities of someone.  Let me try to remember some of the better Pentagon issuances from Gulf War I (disclaimer - I didn&#039;t make it to the theatre, having just rotated back to stateside).

- When in theatre, GIs were not to cross their legs in the company of Saudis - they were offended by the soles of your feet.

- When in threatre, female GIs were not to drive, leave base not escorted by men, nor could they remove their BDU blouse while performing manual labor - the Saudis were threatened by American females.

- When a picture of a GI landed on the front page of a major newspaper, showing said GI&#039;s NBC mask askew, someone got their panties in a bunch and new emphasis was issued on how GIs must be in proper uniform at all times on the battlefield (this was probably the Panama campaign to rid the world of Pineapple Face, not GWI)

So McGuffin, there are three examples that this coffee-less, 6am addled brain can remember of silly Pentagon rulings designed to lessen the abuse of someone else&#039;s sensibilities.  The Koran ruling is nothing new, nor is it special; and your  arguement of why the Pentagon would ever &quot;need&quot; to issue such a ruling is moot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>McGuffin wrote:<br />
'This begs the question, why did the Pentagon even need to issue that rule in the first place?'</p>
<p>Because the Pentagon is always issuing dumbass rules to protect the sensetivities of someone.  Let me try to remember some of the better Pentagon issuances from Gulf War I (disclaimer - I didn't make it to the theatre, having just rotated back to stateside).</p>
<p>- When in theatre, GIs were not to cross their legs in the company of Saudis - they were offended by the soles of your feet.</p>
<p>- When in threatre, female GIs were not to drive, leave base not escorted by men, nor could they remove their BDU blouse while performing manual labor - the Saudis were threatened by American females.</p>
<p>- When a picture of a GI landed on the front page of a major newspaper, showing said GI's NBC mask askew, someone got their panties in a bunch and new emphasis was issued on how GIs must be in proper uniform at all times on the battlefield (this was probably the Panama campaign to rid the world of Pineapple Face, not GWI)</p>
<p>So McGuffin, there are three examples that this coffee-less, 6am addled brain can remember of silly Pentagon rulings designed to lessen the abuse of someone else's sensibilities.  The Koran ruling is nothing new, nor is it special; and your  arguement of why the Pentagon would ever "need" to issue such a ruling is moot.</p>
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		<title>By: McGuffin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46239</link>
		<dc:creator>McGuffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 04:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46239</guid>
		<description>This begs the question, why did the Pentagon even need to issue that rule in the first place?

Clearly because pervasive Koran abuse was occurring and they were trying to stop it (or at least look like they were trying to stop it).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This begs the question, why did the Pentagon even need to issue that rule in the first place?</p>
<p>Clearly because pervasive Koran abuse was occurring and they were trying to stop it (or at least look like they were trying to stop it).</p>
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		<title>By: Homeland Security Blog Area</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46224</link>
		<dc:creator>Homeland Security Blog Area</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 02:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46224</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Major Mathew Schram&#039;s Memorial Day&lt;/strong&gt;
Great post from Blackfive via Michell Malkin re another reason not to read NEWSWEEK.  A MUST READ!...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Major Mathew Schram's Memorial Day</strong><br />
Great post from Blackfive via Michell Malkin re another reason not to read NEWSWEEK.  A MUST READ!...</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Henley</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46222</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Henley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 May 2005 01:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46222</guid>
		<description>James, unfortunately your comments engine ate the link in my original post, which was to VOA News. (How refreshing to be able to complain about SOMEONE ELSE&#039;S comment preview engine!) Anyway, Myers said of Eichenberry:

&lt;em&gt;&quot;It is the judgment of our commander in Afghanistan, General Eichenberry, that in fact the violence that we saw in Jalalabad was not necessarily the result of the allegations about disrespect for the Koran, but more tied up in the political process and the reconciliation process that President Karzai and his cabinet are conducting in Afghanistan.  He thought it was not at all tied to the article in the magazine,&quot; he explained.&lt;/em&gt;

I can&#039;t get from there to your adjusted position in the original item (gasoline on small fire). By this I mean, I&#039;m certain you are saying what YOU meant, but I don&#039;t think what Myers was saying is what you were saying.

One innocent explanation would be that Myers and Eichenberry were wrong then, but honestly wrong, not spinning for the committee and the media, and they now believe what Scott McLellan and Donald Rumsfeld claim, that the riots really WERE about the Newsweek Koran-flushing story. It would be interesting to ask them NOW if their views have changed from THEN. It would be . . . &lt;em&gt;convenient&lt;/em&gt; if they had - when we thought the story was true we believed it unimportant; now that we believe it untrue we also just happen to have decided it&#039;s terribly, TERRIBLY important. Some bloggers, not posting to this site, may prove to have followed the same evolutionary path.

Still, it&#039;s possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, unfortunately your comments engine ate the link in my original post, which was to VOA News. (How refreshing to be able to complain about SOMEONE ELSE'S comment preview engine!) Anyway, Myers said of Eichenberry:</p>
<p><em>"It is the judgment of our commander in Afghanistan, General Eichenberry, that in fact the violence that we saw in Jalalabad was not necessarily the result of the allegations about disrespect for the Koran, but more tied up in the political process and the reconciliation process that President Karzai and his cabinet are conducting in Afghanistan.  He thought it was not at all tied to the article in the magazine," he explained.</em></p>
<p>I can't get from there to your adjusted position in the original item (gasoline on small fire). By this I mean, I'm certain you are saying what YOU meant, but I don't think what Myers was saying is what you were saying.</p>
<p>One innocent explanation would be that Myers and Eichenberry were wrong then, but honestly wrong, not spinning for the committee and the media, and they now believe what Scott McLellan and Donald Rumsfeld claim, that the riots really WERE about the Newsweek Koran-flushing story. It would be interesting to ask them NOW if their views have changed from THEN. It would be . . . <em>convenient</em> if they had - when we thought the story was true we believed it unimportant; now that we believe it untrue we also just happen to have decided it's terribly, TERRIBLY important. Some bloggers, not posting to this site, may prove to have followed the same evolutionary path.</p>
<p>Still, it's possible.</p>
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		<title>By: hermit</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46204</link>
		<dc:creator>hermit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 22:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46204</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I understand: Newsweek said Somebody (anonymous Pentagon person) Said Somebody (unidentified military person) Said (in some unidentified report) that Somebody (unidentified military person); a) dissed the Koran and even b) flushed one down a toilet.  Flushing an entire book down a 3-inch pipe with an S-bend that is regularly clogged by tampons, wads of toilet paper, etc, is physically impossible, so the accuracy of the article is suspect,and beyond that it just says something we&#039;ve been hearing now for years. Why is this news? Then, moslem fanatics (not Newsweek) rioted and killed people. The only link to Newsweek is if we accept the murderer&#039;s excuse for what they did. Do we?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm not sure I understand: Newsweek said Somebody (anonymous Pentagon person) Said Somebody (unidentified military person) Said (in some unidentified report) that Somebody (unidentified military person); a) dissed the Koran and even b) flushed one down a toilet.  Flushing an entire book down a 3-inch pipe with an S-bend that is regularly clogged by tampons, wads of toilet paper, etc, is physically impossible, so the accuracy of the article is suspect,and beyond that it just says something we've been hearing now for years. Why is this news? Then, moslem fanatics (not Newsweek) rioted and killed people. The only link to Newsweek is if we accept the murderer's excuse for what they did. Do we?</p>
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		<title>By: McGehee</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46200</link>
		<dc:creator>McGehee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 22:10:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46200</guid>
		<description>Better than [quarter in the cuss jar] for brains...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Better than [quarter in the cuss jar] for brains...</p>
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		<title>By: Hal</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46183</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 20:28:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46183</guid>
		<description>Yea, I guess after having &lt;a href=&quot;http://corrente.blogspot.com/2005/05/flushing-newsweek.html&quot;&gt;the same thing reported previously in half a dozen or so other newspapers for the last two years&lt;/a&gt;, one should really be more careful.

Microscopes for eyes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea, I guess after having <a href="http://corrente.blogspot.com/2005/05/flushing-newsweek.html">the same thing reported previously in half a dozen or so other newspapers for the last two years</a>, one should really be more careful.</p>
<p>Microscopes for eyes.</p>
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		<title>By: LJD</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46177</link>
		<dc:creator>LJD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 20:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46177</guid>
		<description>&quot;A source&quot;, &quot;on condition of anonymity&quot;, not doubt... 

Why be so afraid to call a space, a spade.
Newsweek did not even follow THEIR OWN verification protocol.  They went with the story because it was inflammatory, and damaging to the administration, as always.

Those that defend this B.S. are of the same, warped mindset. &quot;Allegations&quot; of Koran abuse by an attorney&#039;s &quot;clients&quot;, doesn&#039;t make it so.  I&#039;d rather side with American rednecks, than muslim extremists being held for enacting or planning violence against civilians, simply because of their faith or country of origin.  Where the hell did you all get it twisted around?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"A source", "on condition of anonymity", not doubt... </p>
<p>Why be so afraid to call a space, a spade.<br />
Newsweek did not even follow THEIR OWN verification protocol.  They went with the story because it was inflammatory, and damaging to the administration, as always.</p>
<p>Those that defend this B.S. are of the same, warped mindset. "Allegations" of Koran abuse by an attorney's "clients", doesn't make it so.  I'd rather side with American rednecks, than muslim extremists being held for enacting or planning violence against civilians, simply because of their faith or country of origin.  Where the hell did you all get it twisted around?</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46165</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 18:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46165</guid>
		<description>&quot;Anybody here considered that, if the totally unproven and unfounded implications of the above posts are true, an actual Koran was not âdesecratedâ? Rather, as an interrogation technique, the prisoner was lead to believe that a Koran was being desecrated?
If so, would this be o.k.? After all mind games are fair game in interrogation, and no actual Koran was disrepected. So whatâs the harm?&quot;

LJD, if you&#039;re going to concede our &quot;totally unproven and unfounded implications&quot; for the sake of argument, maybe you should read the comments in question first.  Real, not virtual, desecrations are alleged &amp; being investigated.

Also, if you&#039;d read my 2d comment, you&#039;d see that I recognized the terrible threat under which our troops live every day, and that I never implied that most, or even a great many, troops would desecrate Qur&#039;ans.  My point is, simply, that it would beggar belief that NONE of our guys has done such things.

These rumors may be lies from the Qaeda playbook, but given our track record in Iraq &amp; at Gitmo, they&#039;re not so implausible that Newsweek committed some sort of abomination by finding them credible, especially coming from a previously reliable source who gets his paycheck from the U.S. gov&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Anybody here considered that, if the totally unproven and unfounded implications of the above posts are true, an actual Koran was not âdesecratedâ? Rather, as an interrogation technique, the prisoner was lead to believe that a Koran was being desecrated?<br />
If so, would this be o.k.? After all mind games are fair game in interrogation, and no actual Koran was disrepected. So whatâs the harm?"</p>
<p>LJD, if you're going to concede our "totally unproven and unfounded implications" for the sake of argument, maybe you should read the comments in question first.  Real, not virtual, desecrations are alleged &#038; being investigated.</p>
<p>Also, if you'd read my 2d comment, you'd see that I recognized the terrible threat under which our troops live every day, and that I never implied that most, or even a great many, troops would desecrate Qur'ans.  My point is, simply, that it would beggar belief that NONE of our guys has done such things.</p>
<p>These rumors may be lies from the Qaeda playbook, but given our track record in Iraq &#038; at Gitmo, they're not so implausible that Newsweek committed some sort of abomination by finding them credible, especially coming from a previously reliable source who gets his paycheck from the U.S. gov't.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46158</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 18:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46158</guid>
		<description>Yea, that&#039;s why they&#039;re performing millitary court martials.  You know how the millitary loves to fake that stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea, that's why they're performing millitary court martials.  You know how the millitary loves to fake that stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Fersboo</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46156</link>
		<dc:creator>Fersboo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 17:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46156</guid>
		<description>A very telling response Hal, sufferer of erectile dysfunction.  Pay attention LJD or can I just call you LJ?

Hal wrote:
&#039;In any event, it wouldnât matter if they were faked, as the people they were interrogating certainly believed it&#039;.

.........

In any event, it wouldn&#039;t matter if the &#039;massive, verified reports of torture, sexual humiliation, abuse of children to force confessions&#039; allegations were faked, as the people whom hate the United States and Western Civilization certainly believe it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A very telling response Hal, sufferer of erectile dysfunction.  Pay attention LJD or can I just call you LJ?</p>
<p>Hal wrote:<br />
'In any event, it wouldnât matter if they were faked, as the people they were interrogating certainly believed it'.</p>
<p>.........</p>
<p>In any event, it wouldn't matter if the 'massive, verified reports of torture, sexual humiliation, abuse of children to force confessions' allegations were faked, as the people whom hate the United States and Western Civilization certainly believe it.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/newsweek_retracts_account_of_koran_abuse_by_us_military/comment-page-1/#comment-46154</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2005 17:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">/?p=10560#comment-46154</guid>
		<description>Yes, yes, we&#039;re all just here to hate our country - that is a given.

I think the massive, verified reports of torture, sexual humiliation, abuse of children to force confessions all pretty much point to wide spread problems.  Granted, the vast majority of our troops are doing a heck of a job under incredibly dismal and increasingly desperate conditions.  But it doesn&#039;t take all that many people to really screw the pooch in this respect.  And it&#039;s not like everyone works in the prisons, you know.

Lastly, I find it quite hilarious to suggest that people who are willing to torture other human beings, savage them with dogs and use electrical &quot;stimulation&quot; are going to &quot;fake&quot; flushing a Koran down the toilet.  I can just hear them now: &quot;Yes, there are limits, dammit.  And we won&#039;t cross them.  Torture, sure.  But desecrating the enemy&#039;s religious objects?&quot;

In any event, it wouldn&#039;t matter if they were faked, as the people they were interrogating certainly believed it.  And when they have gone home (after finally being proven that they weren&#039;t of &quot;interest&quot;), they will tell the same tale - and have, check out the link in my previous comment.  It&#039;s not like this story just sprung from the brow of Zeus, ya know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, yes, we're all just here to hate our country - that is a given.</p>
<p>I think the massive, verified reports of torture, sexual humiliation, abuse of children to force confessions all pretty much point to wide spread problems.  Granted, the vast majority of our troops are doing a heck of a job under incredibly dismal and increasingly desperate conditions.  But it doesn't take all that many people to really screw the pooch in this respect.  And it's not like everyone works in the prisons, you know.</p>
<p>Lastly, I find it quite hilarious to suggest that people who are willing to torture other human beings, savage them with dogs and use electrical "stimulation" are going to "fake" flushing a Koran down the toilet.  I can just hear them now: "Yes, there are limits, dammit.  And we won't cross them.  Torture, sure.  But desecrating the enemy's religious objects?"</p>
<p>In any event, it wouldn't matter if they were faked, as the people they were interrogating certainly believed it.  And when they have gone home (after finally being proven that they weren't of "interest"), they will tell the same tale - and have, check out the link in my previous comment.  It's not like this story just sprung from the brow of Zeus, ya know.</p>
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