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	<title>Comments on: Obama&#8217;s Cairo Speech</title>
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		<title>By: Today&#8217;s Blogmarks &#124; New Trommetter Times</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-2/#comment-1057397</link>
		<dc:creator>Today&#8217;s Blogmarks &#124; New Trommetter Times</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1057397</guid>
		<description>[...]  Obama&#8217;s Cairo Speech  (outsidethebeltway.com) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Obama&#8217;s Cairo Speech  (outsidethebeltway.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: An Interested Party</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056964</link>
		<dc:creator>An Interested Party</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 00:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056964</guid>
		<description>The bottom line with Iran is that the overthrow of Mosaddeq led to the Shah taking power and his corrupt and despotic regime (remember &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;SAVAK&lt;/A&gt;?) led to Khomeini and the religious fanatics taking over...now, I have no sympathy for the mullahs in Tehran...but when Iranians make the complaint that we toppled their government in 1953 and paved the way for the Shah, they make a valid point...is it so terribly hard to understand why they would mistrust us?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The bottom line with Iran is that the overthrow of Mosaddeq led to the Shah taking power and his corrupt and despotic regime (remember <a HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK" rel="nofollow">SAVAK</a>?) led to Khomeini and the religious fanatics taking over...now, I have no sympathy for the mullahs in Tehran...but when Iranians make the complaint that we toppled their government in 1953 and paved the way for the Shah, they make a valid point...is it so terribly hard to understand why they would mistrust us?</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056679</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056679</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s fine bit. Hide behind James. Clearly, you need a place to hide, and perhaps David is not available at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That's fine bit. Hide behind James. Clearly, you need a place to hide, and perhaps David is not available at the moment.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Florack</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056676</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Florack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:12:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056676</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Show me where James says that Iran is an Arab state&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I would suggest actually reading it. 

Note that even at the link James cites, the responses all speak about Arab states, even though the speech is also directed at Iran, indeed having an entire section on the topic. 

The trouble here, is that you refuse to acknowledge is the idea that the word &#039;arab&#039; tends to be applied, (Perhaps unfairly) to the entire region as a catch all. 

Again, you&#039;re simply looking for a point to stick the pry bar... and it ain&#039;t working for you. Why not just own up to the idea? Is your position so thin you need to stand on this kind of nonsense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Show me where James says that Iran is an Arab state</p></blockquote>
<p>I would suggest actually reading it. </p>
<p>Note that even at the link James cites, the responses all speak about Arab states, even though the speech is also directed at Iran, indeed having an entire section on the topic. </p>
<p>The trouble here, is that you refuse to acknowledge is the idea that the word 'arab' tends to be applied, (Perhaps unfairly) to the entire region as a catch all. </p>
<p>Again, you're simply looking for a point to stick the pry bar... and it ain't working for you. Why not just own up to the idea? Is your position so thin you need to stand on this kind of nonsense?</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056673</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056673</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So, does that mean you&#039;re going to be jumping into this thread then, andtake James to task for the same thing?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Show me where James says that Iran is an Arab state. Bit, why not just man up and take responsibilty for your own remarks? Do some research, study some history, and come back when you are informed. I suggest adding &quot;Cyrus the Great&quot; to your Google list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So, does that mean you're going to be jumping into this thread then, andtake James to task for the same thing?</p></blockquote>
<p>Show me where James says that Iran is an Arab state. Bit, why not just man up and take responsibilty for your own remarks? Do some research, study some history, and come back when you are informed. I suggest adding "Cyrus the Great" to your Google list.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056672</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056672</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The Buddhists (especially those in Thailand getting their heads chopped off)are waiting....&lt;/blockquote&gt;Wait, what?  What does that have to do with anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The Buddhists (especially those in Thailand getting their heads chopped off)are waiting....</p></blockquote>
<p>Wait, what?  What does that have to do with anything?</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056669</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056669</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;.Immaculate conception theorists hold that once the shah was restored, his repressive misrule made the Ayatollah Khomeini inevitable.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That would be inaccurate, in some ways, it was the Shah&#039;s liberal policies that led to his downfall. Does not change the fact that our meddling in the affairs of a sovereign state and use of them as a proxy made a large contribution to the mess today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>.Immaculate conception theorists hold that once the shah was restored, his repressive misrule made the Ayatollah Khomeini inevitable.</p></blockquote>
<p>That would be inaccurate, in some ways, it was the Shah's liberal policies that led to his downfall. Does not change the fact that our meddling in the affairs of a sovereign state and use of them as a proxy made a large contribution to the mess today.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Florack</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056668</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Florack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056668</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But your saying that Iran is an Arab nation does&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So, does that mean you&#039;re going to be jumping &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obama_cairo_speech_bigger_here_than_there/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;into this thread&lt;/a&gt; then, andtake James to task for the same thing? You&#039;re a poor argument looking for an excuse to exist, Anjin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But your saying that Iran is an Arab nation does</p></blockquote>
<p>So, does that mean you're going to be jumping <a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obama_cairo_speech_bigger_here_than_there/" rel="nofollow">into this thread</a> then, andtake James to task for the same thing? You're a poor argument looking for an excuse to exist, Anjin.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Florack</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056653</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Florack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056653</guid>
		<description>Hmmm. 
Shaw&#039;s got this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.<br />
Shaw's got this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Obama Cario Speech Bigger Here than There?</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056633</link>
		<dc:creator>Obama Cario Speech Bigger Here than There?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056633</guid>
		<description>[...] Exum makes an interesting point: Does anyone else get the sense that Obama&#8217;s big speech in Cairo today is a bigger deal in the Western world than it is in the Arabic-speaking and Islamic worlds? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Exum makes an interesting point: Does anyone else get the sense that Obama&#8217;s big speech in Cairo today is a bigger deal in the Western world than it is in the Arabic-speaking and Islamic worlds? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: davod</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056619</link>
		<dc:creator>davod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056619</guid>
		<description>The Buddhists (especially those in Thailand getting their heads chopped off)are waiting....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Buddhists (especially those in Thailand getting their heads chopped off)are waiting....</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056611</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056611</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What makes the Muslim world so special that the President of the USA had to travel half way round the world to give a speech? &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Christianity - 1.637 billion - 1.923 billion
&lt;b&gt;Islam - 1.450 billion - 1.514 billion&lt;/b&gt;
Buddhism - 489 million - 1.512 billion
Hinduism - 965 million - 971 million
Judaism - 14 million

That&#039;s why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What makes the Muslim world so special that the President of the USA had to travel half way round the world to give a speech? </p></blockquote>
<p>Christianity - 1.637 billion - 1.923 billion<br />
<b>Islam - 1.450 billion - 1.514 billion</b><br />
Buddhism - 489 million - 1.512 billion<br />
Hinduism - 965 million - 971 million<br />
Judaism - 14 million</p>
<p>That's why.</p>
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		<title>By: davod</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056527</link>
		<dc:creator>davod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056527</guid>
		<description>What makes the Muslim world so special that the President of the USA had to travel half way round the world to give a speech? 

Hinduism - 4000 to 2500 BCE
Judaism - 2000 BCE
Zoroastrianism - 1000 BCE
Buddhism - 560 to 490 BCE
Shinto - 500+ BCE
Confucianism - 500 BCE
Jainism - 420 BCE
Taoism - 440 CE
Christianity - 30+ CE
&lt;strong&gt;Islam - 622 CE&lt;/strong&gt;
Sikhism - 1500 CE
Bahá&#039;í - 1863 CE</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What makes the Muslim world so special that the President of the USA had to travel half way round the world to give a speech? </p>
<p>Hinduism - 4000 to 2500 BCE<br />
Judaism - 2000 BCE<br />
Zoroastrianism - 1000 BCE<br />
Buddhism - 560 to 490 BCE<br />
Shinto - 500+ BCE<br />
Confucianism - 500 BCE<br />
Jainism - 420 BCE<br />
Taoism - 440 CE<br />
Christianity - 30+ CE<br />
<strong>Islam - 622 CE</strong><br />
Sikhism - 1500 CE<br />
Bahá'í - 1863 CE</p>
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		<title>By: davod</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056508</link>
		<dc:creator>davod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 08:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056508</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don&#039;t dispute the notion that the CIA or MI5 were operating in Iran. I dispute the notion of any causal agency.&quot;

A non-fiction book on MI6 discusses the 1953 coup, saying the Brits and USA were involved in the coup.  The book goes so far as to say that the CIA wanted to back out at the last minute but the Brits refused to broadcast the recall messages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"I don't dispute the notion that the CIA or MI5 were operating in Iran. I dispute the notion of any causal agency."</p>
<p>A non-fiction book on MI6 discusses the 1953 coup, saying the Brits and USA were involved in the coup.  The book goes so far as to say that the CIA wanted to back out at the last minute but the Brits refused to broadcast the recall messages.</p>
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		<title>By: davod</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/obamas_cairo_speech/comment-page-1/#comment-1056503</link>
		<dc:creator>davod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 08:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=37170#comment-1056503</guid>
		<description>&quot;Put up or shut up:&quot;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3448336.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Foreign Policy Immaculately Conceived By Adam Garfinkle - Hindsight is not necessarily 20/20&lt;/a&gt;

I recommend reading the complete section on Iran as the small portion included below does not cover the complexities of the situation.

&quot;The immaculate conception theory of U.S. foreign policy operates from three central premises. The first is that foreign policy decisions always involve one and only one major interest or principle at a time. The second is that it is always possible to know the direct and peripheral impact of crisis-driven decisions several months or years into the future. The third is that U.S. foreign policy decisions are always taken with all principals in agreement and are implemented down the line as those principals intend — in short, they are logically coherent.&quot;

&quot;...Immaculate conception theorists hold that once the shah was restored, his repressive misrule made the Ayatollah Khomeini inevitable. Not only is the shah’s repression distorted and exaggerated in their telling of it, but it was the bungling of the Carter administration that allowed the clerics to seize power. Illustrating the difference between an ignoramus and a fool, some of that administration’s cabinet members not merely believed — they actually said it publicly — that Ayatollah Khomeini was a “saint” who would soon retire from politics. Worse, the administration actively dissuaded the Iranian military, via the infamous Huyser mission among other modalities, from preventing the mullahs from taking power. Supporting the shah was good policy. Failure to adjust when the shah’s touch slipped was unfortunate but not fatal. The mismanagement of the endgame was disastrous, but it was also entirely avoidable.&quot;

&quot;As serious students of modernization know (alas, that leaves out almost all write-from-the-hip journalists), land reform is absolutely essential to economic and eventually political modernization; by almost any standard the shah’s efforts in this regard were impressive. Iranian modernization as directed from the Peacock throne probably went farther and was more sustainable than any that Mossadegh and his disputatious colleagues and successors could have achieved. Indeed, had Iran come under a form of even limited neo-imperial Soviet influence like that from which Egypt, Algeria, Iraq, Syria, and other countries have so much suffered, its “reforms” might have actually been retrogressive.&quot;

&quot;More than that, though the immaculate conceptionists tend not to know it, the shah granted the vote to women in 1964. It was this act that first galvanized clerical opposition to the regime and was the catalyst for the first occasion upon which Ruhollah Khomeini went out and got himself arrested. We know how the story turned sad in 1978, but the success of the shah’s reforms went so deep in Iranian society that the rule of the Islamic Republic will, in the end, not stick. Perhaps the best illustration of this is that the mullahs have not dared suggest that the vote be taken away from women, though this is precisely what their theology would mandate.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Put up or shut up:"</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3448336.html" rel="nofollow">Foreign Policy Immaculately Conceived By Adam Garfinkle - Hindsight is not necessarily 20/20</a></p>
<p>I recommend reading the complete section on Iran as the small portion included below does not cover the complexities of the situation.</p>
<p>"The immaculate conception theory of U.S. foreign policy operates from three central premises. The first is that foreign policy decisions always involve one and only one major interest or principle at a time. The second is that it is always possible to know the direct and peripheral impact of crisis-driven decisions several months or years into the future. The third is that U.S. foreign policy decisions are always taken with all principals in agreement and are implemented down the line as those principals intend — in short, they are logically coherent."</p>
<p>"...Immaculate conception theorists hold that once the shah was restored, his repressive misrule made the Ayatollah Khomeini inevitable. Not only is the shah&rsquo;s repression distorted and exaggerated in their telling of it, but it was the bungling of the Carter administration that allowed the clerics to seize power. Illustrating the difference between an ignoramus and a fool, some of that administration&rsquo;s cabinet members not merely believed — they actually said it publicly — that Ayatollah Khomeini was a “saint” who would soon retire from politics. Worse, the administration actively dissuaded the Iranian military, via the infamous Huyser mission among other modalities, from preventing the mullahs from taking power. Supporting the shah was good policy. Failure to adjust when the shah&rsquo;s touch slipped was unfortunate but not fatal. The mismanagement of the endgame was disastrous, but it was also entirely avoidable."</p>
<p>"As serious students of modernization know (alas, that leaves out almost all write-from-the-hip journalists), land reform is absolutely essential to economic and eventually political modernization; by almost any standard the shah&rsquo;s efforts in this regard were impressive. Iranian modernization as directed from the Peacock throne probably went farther and was more sustainable than any that Mossadegh and his disputatious colleagues and successors could have achieved. Indeed, had Iran come under a form of even limited neo-imperial Soviet influence like that from which Egypt, Algeria, Iraq, Syria, and other countries have so much suffered, its “reforms” might have actually been retrogressive."</p>
<p>"More than that, though the immaculate conceptionists tend not to know it, the shah granted the vote to women in 1964. It was this act that first galvanized clerical opposition to the regime and was the catalyst for the first occasion upon which Ruhollah Khomeini went out and got himself arrested. We know how the story turned sad in 1978, but the success of the shah&rsquo;s reforms went so deep in Iranian society that the rule of the Islamic Republic will, in the end, not stick. Perhaps the best illustration of this is that the mullahs have not dared suggest that the vote be taken away from women, though this is precisely what their theology would mandate."</p>
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