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	<title>Comments on: Did Anyone Commit a Crime in Plame Game?</title>
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		<title>By: Hal</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61904</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 04:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61904</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s Fitz that&#039;s going to determine whether there&#039;s a crime, and what the charges are.  Luckily for us all, we don&#039;t have to rely on Barone&#039;s legal abilities, nor James Joyner&#039;s.

From what we already know, &lt;a href=&quot;http://nytimes.com/2005/10/24/politics/24cnd-leak.html?hp&amp;ex=1130212800&amp;en=db7d02c93e5913ef&amp;ei=5094&amp;partner=homepage&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Cheney is almost certainly Libby&#039;s initial source&lt;/a&gt;.  It seems almost certain that a large part of the motivation here was to protect Cheney - i.e. it&#039;s a coverup.  Thus, Cheney knew all along who leaked.  It defies credulity to think that he hid this from Bush (and given the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/357107p-304312c.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;NY Daily News report of Bush chewing Karl n&#039; Libby&#039;s hide over this&lt;/a&gt;, the probability of this is essentially zero).  So, Bush knew as well and all the while he was lying to the American people about it.

What a president!  What a vice president!

As I said when this first broke, James, what spills out of this is going to shock even you hard core, oh-so-jaded, inside the beltway types.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's Fitz that's going to determine whether there's a crime, and what the charges are.  Luckily for us all, we don't have to rely on Barone's legal abilities, nor James Joyner's.</p>
<p>From what we already know, <a href="http://nytimes.com/2005/10/24/politics/24cnd-leak.html?hp&amp;ex=1130212800&amp;en=db7d02c93e5913ef&amp;ei=5094&amp;partner=homepage" rel="nofollow">Cheney is almost certainly Libby's initial source</a>.  It seems almost certain that a large part of the motivation here was to protect Cheney - i.e. it's a coverup.  Thus, Cheney knew all along who leaked.  It defies credulity to think that he hid this from Bush (and given the <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/357107p-304312c.html" rel="nofollow">NY Daily News report of Bush chewing Karl n' Libby's hide over this</a>, the probability of this is essentially zero).  So, Bush knew as well and all the while he was lying to the American people about it.</p>
<p>What a president!  What a vice president!</p>
<p>As I said when this first broke, James, what spills out of this is going to shock even you hard core, oh-so-jaded, inside the beltway types.</p>
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		<title>By: odograph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61892</link>
		<dc:creator>odograph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 02:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61892</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And when THAT happens, we ALL lose, conservatives and liberals, for we then fail to hear about what happens, and instead end up with âgovernment approvedâ PR.&lt;/i&gt;

In this case I think the grand jury process has helped us see through the âgovernment approvedâ PR.  (News reports just now are that Cheney told Libby/Rove &quot;wife works at CIA.)

The problem with a blanked protection or denouncement of unnamed sources is that scoundrels can be found on either side of the line.  A scoundrel could be acting as an unnamed source, or be undone by an unnamed source.

It would be nice to have a shield law ... but only for the good guys.  Unfortuntely I don&#039;t thing can be written.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And when THAT happens, we ALL lose, conservatives and liberals, for we then fail to hear about what happens, and instead end up with âgovernment approvedâ PR.</i></p>
<p>In this case I think the grand jury process has helped us see through the âgovernment approvedâ PR.  (News reports just now are that Cheney told Libby/Rove "wife works at CIA.)</p>
<p>The problem with a blanked protection or denouncement of unnamed sources is that scoundrels can be found on either side of the line.  A scoundrel could be acting as an unnamed source, or be undone by an unnamed source.</p>
<p>It would be nice to have a shield law ... but only for the good guys.  Unfortuntely I don't thing can be written.</p>
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		<title>By: Former Intel</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61891</link>
		<dc:creator>Former Intel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 02:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61891</guid>
		<description>Truly whether Plame was covert and thereby whether an outing is even possibly a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act is a red herring, or at least something more suited for a court than the court of public opinion.  It seems to me, as a former intelligence worker much more likely that her particular assignment in the CIA, WMD work, was a classified fact.  When it comes to the revelation of classified facts by cleared people, the vagueness of potential criminality evaporates quickly.  Ignorance is no excuse, revealing classified information is a crime, period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truly whether Plame was covert and thereby whether an outing is even possibly a violation of the Intelligence Identities Protection Act is a red herring, or at least something more suited for a court than the court of public opinion.  It seems to me, as a former intelligence worker much more likely that her particular assignment in the CIA, WMD work, was a classified fact.  When it comes to the revelation of classified facts by cleared people, the vagueness of potential criminality evaporates quickly.  Ignorance is no excuse, revealing classified information is a crime, period.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Veerhoff</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61887</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Veerhoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 02:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61887</guid>
		<description>OK, I think that the issue of whether a crime was comitted or not is NOT the real issue. The act of having a grand jury investigate these proceedings creates another very chilling effect, and that is self censorship of the media.

Regardless of your political viewpoints, the United States has had a very long history of an anatagonistic media towards the government. And rightly so. The media&#039;s role is to question who or what philosophy is in power at that time, and offer commentary. There is rarely an absolute &quot;truth&quot; when it comes to reporting any event.

The actions that have occurred in this case instead create a disincentive for journalists to actively seek out information, and act as a government watchdog. The threat of censorship through litigation and indictment IS real. And when THAT happens, we ALL lose, conservatives and liberals, for we then fail to hear about what happens, and instead end up with &quot;government approved&quot; PR. 

Smaller organizations, right leaning or left, will no longer take the risk to find &quot;unnamed&quot; sources if they know that it will end up being challenged in an expensive court battle. Nor will &quot;unnamed&quot; sources feel safe in reporting those items that they see as unethical, immoral or illegal.

As Edmund Burke stated &quot;The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I think that the issue of whether a crime was comitted or not is NOT the real issue. The act of having a grand jury investigate these proceedings creates another very chilling effect, and that is self censorship of the media.</p>
<p>Regardless of your political viewpoints, the United States has had a very long history of an anatagonistic media towards the government. And rightly so. The media's role is to question who or what philosophy is in power at that time, and offer commentary. There is rarely an absolute "truth" when it comes to reporting any event.</p>
<p>The actions that have occurred in this case instead create a disincentive for journalists to actively seek out information, and act as a government watchdog. The threat of censorship through litigation and indictment IS real. And when THAT happens, we ALL lose, conservatives and liberals, for we then fail to hear about what happens, and instead end up with "government approved" PR. </p>
<p>Smaller organizations, right leaning or left, will no longer take the risk to find "unnamed" sources if they know that it will end up being challenged in an expensive court battle. Nor will "unnamed" sources feel safe in reporting those items that they see as unethical, immoral or illegal.</p>
<p>As Edmund Burke stated "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."</p>
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		<title>By: Paul M. Neville</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61884</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul M. Neville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61884</guid>
		<description>There is one possible crime that has been overlooked. If Mr. Wilson was sent to Africa to conduct an investigation at the behest of the CIA how could he publish an article about his secret mission without the permission of the CIA? If he was not given permission did he not break some law by publishing his article?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is one possible crime that has been overlooked. If Mr. Wilson was sent to Africa to conduct an investigation at the behest of the CIA how could he publish an article about his secret mission without the permission of the CIA? If he was not given permission did he not break some law by publishing his article?</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Ehrlich</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61873</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Ehrlich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61873</guid>
		<description>Anderson, Plame went to work at Langley every work day.  She drove a gold Jaguar convertible.  She worked at a desk as an analyst.  Just how is that covert.  You need to look up the word.  I thought it was illegal for the CIA to act covertly within the United States.  Was her cover at the CIA, working at the CIA?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anderson, Plame went to work at Langley every work day.  She drove a gold Jaguar convertible.  She worked at a desk as an analyst.  Just how is that covert.  You need to look up the word.  I thought it was illegal for the CIA to act covertly within the United States.  Was her cover at the CIA, working at the CIA?</p>
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		<title>By: DL</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61872</link>
		<dc:creator>DL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 01:02:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61872</guid>
		<description>The real question is who appointed the judge?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real question is who appointed the judge?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61868</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 00:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61868</guid>
		<description>I think there are some questionable assumptions that Ms. Plame was not a &quot;covert agent&quot; because she did not work outside the United States in the five years before the disclosure of her identity.  First of all, I&#039;m not sure that she did not work outside the U.S. from 1998 to 2003 and Mr. Barone simply asserts that to be true.  

Second, it is not necessary that the agent work outside the U.S. to be considered a &quot;covert agent&quot;, if that person was working as an agent of the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.  I don&#039;t know whether Ms. Plame worked in this department or not, but the fact that she may not have worked outside the US is not dispositive of the issue.

Take a look at United States Code, Title 50, Section 426(4), which includes the definition for covert agent.  There are three separate alternative definitions (A), (B), and (C), and alternatives within each subdefinition (pay close attention to the relevant &quot;and&quot; and &quot;or&quot;):  

&quot;The term &#039;&#039;covert agent&#039;&#039; means -
(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an
intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency -
    (i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and
    (ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; OR 

(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and -
     (i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, OR
     (ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; or
(C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose past or present intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information and who is a present or former agent of, or a present or former informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are some questionable assumptions that Ms. Plame was not a "covert agent" because she did not work outside the United States in the five years before the disclosure of her identity.  First of all, I'm not sure that she did not work outside the U.S. from 1998 to 2003 and Mr. Barone simply asserts that to be true.  </p>
<p>Second, it is not necessary that the agent work outside the U.S. to be considered a "covert agent", if that person was working as an agent of the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.  I don't know whether Ms. Plame worked in this department or not, but the fact that she may not have worked outside the US is not dispositive of the issue.</p>
<p>Take a look at United States Code, Title 50, Section 426(4), which includes the definition for covert agent.  There are three separate alternative definitions (A), (B), and (C), and alternatives within each subdefinition (pay close attention to the relevant "and" and "or"):  </p>
<p>"The term ''covert agent'' means -<br />
(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an<br />
intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency -<br />
    (i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and<br />
    (ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States; OR </p>
<p>(B) a United States citizen whose intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information, and -<br />
     (i) who resides and acts outside the United States as an agent of, or informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency, OR<br />
     (ii) who is at the time of the disclosure acting as an agent of, or informant to, the foreign counterintelligence or foreign counterterrorism components of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; or<br />
(C) an individual, other than a United States citizen, whose past or present intelligence relationship to the United States is classified information and who is a present or former agent of, or a present or former informant or source of operational assistance to, an intelligence agency.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61855</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61855</guid>
		<description>&quot;Plame was pretty clearly âcovertâ by some definition&quot;, perhaps if one takes anyoneâs hair brain definition of what covert means.  I suspect most people donât have a clue what an overt, covert or clandestine agent is. From what I heard of Plame she was a covert in some paper classification given to her by some friends. 

If Rove-Libby or anyone purposely lied to a Grand Jury, they should be prosecuted. I thought that this should apply to Clinton when he lied but it didnât turn out that way. Getting a fact wrong or not remembering every little detail doesnât constitute perjury. None of us have a perfect memory. However if it can be show that anyone knowingly gave false testimony, persecute him or her.   

Obstruction of justice is a charge that can be abuse since it is a vague statute. I thought Martha Stewart was railroad on this charge even though she is a liberal.  Law should be apply evenly to everyone.Are there any liberals out there who will agree to condemn any reporter or democrat that get indicted for violating these standard?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Plame was pretty clearly âcovertâ by some definition", perhaps if one takes anyoneâs hair brain definition of what covert means.  I suspect most people donât have a clue what an overt, covert or clandestine agent is. From what I heard of Plame she was a covert in some paper classification given to her by some friends. </p>
<p>If Rove-Libby or anyone purposely lied to a Grand Jury, they should be prosecuted. I thought that this should apply to Clinton when he lied but it didnât turn out that way. Getting a fact wrong or not remembering every little detail doesnât constitute perjury. None of us have a perfect memory. However if it can be show that anyone knowingly gave false testimony, persecute him or her.   </p>
<p>Obstruction of justice is a charge that can be abuse since it is a vague statute. I thought Martha Stewart was railroad on this charge even though she is a liberal.  Law should be apply evenly to everyone.Are there any liberals out there who will agree to condemn any reporter or democrat that get indicted for violating these standard?</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61850</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61850</guid>
		<description>Fitzgerald was chosen specifically because he has no political agenda.  Now that it appears indictments are imminent, the Bushites do not hesitate to attack him personally and direct cries of foul at Democrats. (for what I am not sure) Sad indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fitzgerald was chosen specifically because he has no political agenda.  Now that it appears indictments are imminent, the Bushites do not hesitate to attack him personally and direct cries of foul at Democrats. (for what I am not sure) Sad indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61846</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:13:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61846</guid>
		<description>If I recall correctly, a democrat did not appoint Fitzgerald (as they currently have no power).  And, as James said, Fitzgerald has a sterling reputation.

Herb, you are an idiot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I recall correctly, a democrat did not appoint Fitzgerald (as they currently have no power).  And, as James said, Fitzgerald has a sterling reputation.</p>
<p>Herb, you are an idiot.</p>
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		<title>By: odograph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61845</link>
		<dc:creator>odograph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61845</guid>
		<description>You know Herb, there was a day when Bob Hope could make a joke about Democrats ... then a joke about Republicans ... and then Democrats again.

Saner times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know Herb, there was a day when Bob Hope could make a joke about Democrats ... then a joke about Republicans ... and then Democrats again.</p>
<p>Saner times.</p>
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		<title>By: Herb</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61843</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61843</guid>
		<description>There seems to be no end to how low the Democrats will go to get Bush. It is indeed strange that one big bunch of Democrats, Many Foreign Countries, The UN and many others firmly held that Iraq had WMD and now they take the stand that it was a big lie from Bush. The democrats don&#039;t mention that their own were just as strong on the Iraq WMD as was Bush.

As for Fitzgerld, he&#039;s just another politically oriented prosicutor that is out to make a big name for himself and don,t care whos toes he steps on or who he hurts to achieve it.

This Plame thing makes any good American sick. Sick of the poiticians and the games, Sick of the millions of dollars wasted for political gain and sick of those lying, kniving, Democrats.

I don&#039;t like murderers, thieves, rapists and liars, hence, I don,t like democrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be no end to how low the Democrats will go to get Bush. It is indeed strange that one big bunch of Democrats, Many Foreign Countries, The UN and many others firmly held that Iraq had WMD and now they take the stand that it was a big lie from Bush. The democrats don't mention that their own were just as strong on the Iraq WMD as was Bush.</p>
<p>As for Fitzgerld, he's just another politically oriented prosicutor that is out to make a big name for himself and don,t care whos toes he steps on or who he hurts to achieve it.</p>
<p>This Plame thing makes any good American sick. Sick of the poiticians and the games, Sick of the millions of dollars wasted for political gain and sick of those lying, kniving, Democrats.</p>
<p>I don't like murderers, thieves, rapists and liars, hence, I don,t like democrats.</p>
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		<title>By: odograph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61842</link>
		<dc:creator>odograph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61842</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think we need to wait for indictments before we state allegence to the higher principles of democracy.  Indeed, if democracy has fallen to &quot;who gets indictments&quot; ... it&#039;s pretty much gone off the tracks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't think we need to wait for indictments before we state allegence to the higher principles of democracy.  Indeed, if democracy has fallen to "who gets indictments" ... it's pretty much gone off the tracks.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/outside_the_beltway_republicans_spinning_possible_perjury_charges/comment-page-1/#comment-61838</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 20:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12414#comment-61838</guid>
		<description>At this point, JJ is right insofar as we should just wait for the indictments.  Plame was pretty clearly &quot;covert&quot; by some definition, but it could end up being a jury question whether she was &quot;covert&quot; according to the relevant statute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At this point, JJ is right insofar as we should just wait for the indictments.  Plame was pretty clearly "covert" by some definition, but it could end up being a jury question whether she was "covert" according to the relevant statute.</p>
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