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	<title>Comments on: Race Still Tied After Biden Pick</title>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507800</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507800</guid>
		<description>Your point is an arguable one, James, from both sides, no disrespect to you, here.

I agree that numbers that narrow tend to point to a statistical burp as much as anything. But the timing of the change in direction does seem to me to counter that argument to some degree.

As an example... did the numbers shift because of no particular ascribable event? Well, then a statistical hiccup seems more likely a reason.  Is there an event we can logically hang the change on? Somewhat less so.

Houston&#039;s point is well taken; We&#039;re going to be dealing with numbers this tight all through this cycle, if the last few cycles are of any indication. Hell, the votes themselves were on a national basis within the statitsical margin of error. At what point do we begin to logically assume that the (small) number shifts we&#039;re seeing are genuine, despite also being within the MOE?

Hard thing to judge, this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your point is an arguable one, James, from both sides, no disrespect to you, here.</p>
<p>I agree that numbers that narrow tend to point to a statistical burp as much as anything. But the timing of the change in direction does seem to me to counter that argument to some degree.</p>
<p>As an example... did the numbers shift because of no particular ascribable event? Well, then a statistical hiccup seems more likely a reason.  Is there an event we can logically hang the change on? Somewhat less so.</p>
<p>Houston's point is well taken; We're going to be dealing with numbers this tight all through this cycle, if the last few cycles are of any indication. Hell, the votes themselves were on a national basis within the statitsical margin of error. At what point do we begin to logically assume that the (small) number shifts we're seeing are genuine, despite also being within the MOE?</p>
<p>Hard thing to judge, this.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507793</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:31:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507793</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;With a vertical axis ranging from 39-49 pct, a swing of 3-4 points is in fact dramatic, is it not? In such a tight race, these are significant changes. Thus the figure does not exaggerate.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It gives the misimpression that wat is likely random sampling error is meaningful variation. That&#039;s problematic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>With a vertical axis ranging from 39-49 pct, a swing of 3-4 points is in fact dramatic, is it not? In such a tight race, these are significant changes. Thus the figure does not exaggerate.</p></blockquote>
<p>It gives the misimpression that wat is likely random sampling error is meaningful variation. That's problematic.</p>
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		<title>By: Houston</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507593</link>
		<dc:creator>Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:05:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507593</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Because the vertical axis ranges only from 39 to 49, even a swing of 3-4 percentage points looks dramatic.

&lt;/blockquote&gt;

With a vertical axis ranging from 39-49 pct, a swing of 3-4 points &lt;B&gt;&lt;I&gt;is in fact&lt;/B&gt;&lt;/I&gt; dramatic, is it not?  In such a tight race, these are significant changes.  Thus the figure does not exaggerate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Because the vertical axis ranges only from 39 to 49, even a swing of 3-4 percentage points looks dramatic.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>With a vertical axis ranging from 39-49 pct, a swing of 3-4 points <b><i>is in fact</i></b> dramatic, is it not?  In such a tight race, these are significant changes.  Thus the figure does not exaggerate.</p>
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		<title>By: PD Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507589</link>
		<dc:creator>PD Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507589</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I also can&#039;t help but think there hasn&#039;t been enough time to really measure the affect of the Biden pick. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I agree; its a Sunday night poll and I don&#039;t think there is a lot of precedent for VP selection bumps anyway.

And there was something else that happened at the end of last week.  Obama personally went negative (the house issue) in a way that I had not ever seen him before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I also can't help but think there hasn't been enough time to really measure the affect of the Biden pick. </p></blockquote>
<p>I agree; its a Sunday night poll and I don't think there is a lot of precedent for VP selection bumps anyway.</p>
<p>And there was something else that happened at the end of last week.  Obama personally went negative (the house issue) in a way that I had not ever seen him before.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507581</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507581</guid>
		<description>I also can&#039;t help but think there hasn&#039;t been enough time to really measure the affect of the Biden pick.  The announcement came over the week end, which left maybe two days on what at least here was the nicest weekend in months.

I think the polling reflect a close race.  Not sure that it has any reflection on how the Biden pick is going to affect them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also can't help but think there hasn't been enough time to really measure the affect of the Biden pick.  The announcement came over the week end, which left maybe two days on what at least here was the nicest weekend in months.</p>
<p>I think the polling reflect a close race.  Not sure that it has any reflection on how the Biden pick is going to affect them.</p>
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		<title>By: PD Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507577</link>
		<dc:creator>PD Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507577</guid>
		<description>OTOH I think the horizontal axis is too long.  You can tell how the lines become much more jagged around Jan/Feb of 2008.  Not a lot of polling data before then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OTOH I think the horizontal axis is too long.  You can tell how the lines become much more jagged around Jan/Feb of 2008.  Not a lot of polling data before then.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507574</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 15:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507574</guid>
		<description>Houston:  Dave answers the question.

Because the vertical axis ranges only from 39 to 49, even a swing of 3-4 percentage points looks dramatic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Houston:  Dave answers the question.</p>
<p>Because the vertical axis ranges only from 39 to 49, even a swing of 3-4 percentage points looks dramatic.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507538</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:45:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507538</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s the constraint on the range between 38 and 52%, Houston.  If the range were 0 to 100% it wouldn&#039;t look quite so dramatic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's the constraint on the range between 38 and 52%, Houston.  If the range were 0 to 100% it wouldn't look quite so dramatic.</p>
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		<title>By: Houston</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507535</link>
		<dc:creator>Houston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 13:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507535</guid>
		<description>Just wondering....why do you say, &quot;The degree of variation in the chart is exaggerated by the scale,&quot; when both the horizontal and vertical scales are linear?  I don&#039;t understand...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wondering....why do you say, "The degree of variation in the chart is exaggerated by the scale," when both the horizontal and vertical scales are linear?  I don't understand...</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507530</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507530</guid>
		<description>Eh... well, look, some polls did suggest Obama was behind a few points, so if that&#039;s no longer the case, it COULD be spun to say that the Biden thing caused a slight uptick.

But, James, I suspect and suppose you know as well as I do that if we were talking about McCain, and his pick, and the polling response was this tepid, the phrase &quot;dead cat bounce&quot; would be out in force in the Dinosaur media.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eh... well, look, some polls did suggest Obama was behind a few points, so if that's no longer the case, it COULD be spun to say that the Biden thing caused a slight uptick.</p>
<p>But, James, I suspect and suppose you know as well as I do that if we were talking about McCain, and his pick, and the polling response was this tepid, the phrase "dead cat bounce" would be out in force in the Dinosaur media.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/race_still_tied_after_biden_pick/comment-page-1/#comment-507528</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=24970#comment-507528</guid>
		<description>Or, alternatively, Keating Holland has never taken a course in polling or statistics.  The biographical info is pretty scanty but it looks to me as though he or she was a journalism major.

I don&#039;t know what things are like now but back when I was in school I didn&#039;t know a single J-school student who ever took a math course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or, alternatively, Keating Holland has never taken a course in polling or statistics.  The biographical info is pretty scanty but it looks to me as though he or she was a journalism major.</p>
<p>I don't know what things are like now but back when I was in school I didn't know a single J-school student who ever took a math course.</p>
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