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	<title>Comments on: Republicans Walk out of House in Protest</title>
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		<title>By: Resources and News &#187; Senate OKs tax increase to give more kids health care</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-141009</link>
		<dc:creator>Resources and News &#187; Senate OKs tax increase to give more kids health care</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 01:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-141009</guid>
		<description>[...] Republicans Walk out of House in ProtestOutside Beltway - Patrick O’Connor reports on a bizarre incident last night wherein the Republicans stormed out of the House of Representatives after a shouting match with the Democrats. The flap represents a complete breakdown in parliamentary procedure and an [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Republicans Walk out of House in ProtestOutside Beltway - Patrick O&rsquo;Connor reports on a bizarre incident last night wherein the Republicans stormed out of the House of Representatives after a shouting match with the Democrats. The flap represents a complete breakdown in parliamentary procedure and an [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ugh</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140984</link>
		<dc:creator>Ugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140984</guid>
		<description>simon - I was calling Hinderaker&#039;s source and the Rep. Cantor idiots for equating some procedural rule twisting/breaking in the House of Representatives over a single amendment to a bill that AFAIK still has to go through the Senate and receive the President&#039;s signature with things &quot;Stalin&quot; would recognize and a &quot;dictatorship.&quot;  

It&#039;s just plain dumb.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>simon - I was calling Hinderaker's source and the Rep. Cantor idiots for equating some procedural rule twisting/breaking in the House of Representatives over a single amendment to a bill that AFAIK still has to go through the Senate and receive the President's signature with things "Stalin" would recognize and a "dictatorship."  </p>
<p>It's just plain dumb.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140982</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 20:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140982</guid>
		<description>CQ did a really good piece on this issue. It looks like what happened was a genuine mistake caused by some confusion opens a partisan floodgate. We all know votes are often a forgone conclusion over their outcomes. Even close votes like this one are operations where a whip will allow fence straddling members to buck the party so long as the final vote outcome is secured. In this case, the whips got caught off guard because of a flurry of vote changes including changes by two members with the same hyphenated last name. It throws off the vote counts. Now the confusion enters. The Rs suddenly have a win they weren&#039;t expecting to get and when the dems yank it from them, all hell breaks loose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CQ did a really good piece on this issue. It looks like what happened was a genuine mistake caused by some confusion opens a partisan floodgate. We all know votes are often a forgone conclusion over their outcomes. Even close votes like this one are operations where a whip will allow fence straddling members to buck the party so long as the final vote outcome is secured. In this case, the whips got caught off guard because of a flurry of vote changes including changes by two members with the same hyphenated last name. It throws off the vote counts. Now the confusion enters. The Rs suddenly have a win they weren't expecting to get and when the dems yank it from them, all hell breaks loose.</p>
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		<title>By: Donklephant &#187; Blog Archive &#187; That House Vote Dramedy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140965</link>
		<dc:creator>Donklephant &#187; Blog Archive &#187; That House Vote Dramedy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140965</guid>
		<description>[...] Republicans are crying foul, but James Joyner reminds us&#8230;didn&#8217;t the Republicans do this with CAFTA? The 217 to 215 vote came just after [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Republicans are crying foul, but James Joyner reminds us&#8230;didn&#8217;t the Republicans do this with CAFTA? The 217 to 215 vote came just after [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Denton</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140961</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Denton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 18:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140961</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;&quot;Unprecedented&quot; - hardly.&lt;/strong&gt;  This happened several times in the last few years with the GOP parliamentary thugs in charge.  On one of them the circumstances were identical, during the last minute vote switching they declared the measure passed when it appeared it hadn&#039;t.  Guess you must have snoozed through it.  

Oh wait, you had noticed that the GOP leadership held the vote open four hours in another case while they pressured and bribed Congressmen on the floor to vote for a Medicare Drug package.

Spare me the faux partisan outrage.

By the way, the vote was held open and it finally was resolved and the Democrats won.  McNulty even apologized for misreading the vote earlier.  We are still waiting for apologies for the last few years of GOP misrule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>"Unprecedented" - hardly.</strong>  This happened several times in the last few years with the GOP parliamentary thugs in charge.  On one of them the circumstances were identical, during the last minute vote switching they declared the measure passed when it appeared it hadn't.  Guess you must have snoozed through it.  </p>
<p>Oh wait, you had noticed that the GOP leadership held the vote open four hours in another case while they pressured and bribed Congressmen on the floor to vote for a Medicare Drug package.</p>
<p>Spare me the faux partisan outrage.</p>
<p>By the way, the vote was held open and it finally was resolved and the Democrats won.  McNulty even apologized for misreading the vote earlier.  We are still waiting for apologies for the last few years of GOP misrule.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140958</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140958</guid>
		<description>Before they get on too high horses, didn&#039;t the Republicans keep the voting open for an additional THREE hours to pass the Medicaid Prescription bill?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before they get on too high horses, didn't the Republicans keep the voting open for an additional THREE hours to pass the Medicaid Prescription bill?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140957</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140957</guid>
		<description>Ok, one more possibility, it could have been 215-213, then after the gavel someone changed their vote from &quot;Yes&quot; to &quot;No&quot;, making is 214-214.  But then one wonders why McNulty, a Democract, would have prematurely closed the vote when it was not in his party&#039;s preferred outcome.  

Or it could be that somebody was planning on changing their vote from &quot;No&quot; to &quot;Yes&quot;, but McNulty closed the vote as 214-214 before the vote was changed, and the Republicans are in fact arguing that it should have been counted anyway.  I can&#039;t play the youtube video, so can someone tell me if it&#039;s got the details?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, one more possibility, it could have been 215-213, then after the gavel someone changed their vote from "Yes" to "No", making is 214-214.  But then one wonders why McNulty, a Democract, would have prematurely closed the vote when it was not in his party's preferred outcome.  </p>
<p>Or it could be that somebody was planning on changing their vote from "No" to "Yes", but McNulty closed the vote as 214-214 before the vote was changed, and the Republicans are in fact arguing that it should have been counted anyway.  I can't play the youtube video, so can someone tell me if it's got the details?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140953</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140953</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Michael, I think your point two is wrong - I had understood the incident (and maybe it&#039;s me who&#039;s got it wrong) as being that votes were allowed after the gavel came down, not that there was confusion about votes cast before the gavel dropped.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
215 + 213 = 428
214 + 214 = 428

Since they were both in agreement about the total number of votes counted, that argument wouldn&#039;t make sense.  It sounded more like one (or more) votes were counted as a &quot;No&quot; by the Democrats, but as a &quot;Yes&quot; by the Republicans.  Unless those numbers are wrong, if it was 214-213 instead of 215-213, then I can see where an late &quot;No&quot; vote would cause the argument.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The video shows the acting speaker saying, essentially, that they mistakenly gaveled the tally while people were still voting.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Ok, that still doesn&#039;t explain why both sides are claiming the same total number of votes.  Unless one (or more) people who had not  yet cast their vote were recorded as voting either &quot;Yes&quot; or &quot;No&quot;, depend on which side of the isle you were listening from.  Was there an under-vote, or misrepresented votes, and in who&#039;s count?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Michael, I think your point two is wrong - I had understood the incident (and maybe it's me who's got it wrong) as being that votes were allowed after the gavel came down, not that there was confusion about votes cast before the gavel dropped.</p></blockquote>
<p>215 + 213 = 428<br />
214 + 214 = 428</p>
<p>Since they were both in agreement about the total number of votes counted, that argument wouldn't make sense.  It sounded more like one (or more) votes were counted as a "No" by the Democrats, but as a "Yes" by the Republicans.  Unless those numbers are wrong, if it was 214-213 instead of 215-213, then I can see where an late "No" vote would cause the argument.</p>
<blockquote><p>The video shows the acting speaker saying, essentially, that they mistakenly gaveled the tally while people were still voting.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ok, that still doesn't explain why both sides are claiming the same total number of votes.  Unless one (or more) people who had not  yet cast their vote were recorded as voting either "Yes" or "No", depend on which side of the isle you were listening from.  Was there an under-vote, or misrepresented votes, and in who's count?</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140941</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140941</guid>
		<description>James - oh, I guess that makes sense if he was calling you guys and the commenters here &quot;fncking idiots.&quot; I was presuming good faith (and ability to use emoticons) on his part - my bad. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James - oh, I guess that makes sense if he was calling you guys and the commenters here "fncking idiots." I was presuming good faith (and ability to use emoticons) on his part - my bad. ;)</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140931</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140931</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;it is merely asserted that it happened, not established&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Right.  The video shows the acting speaker saying, essentially, that they mistakenly gaveled the tally while people were still voting.


&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Ugh&quot;&#039;s comment at 9:04 is distressingly ignorant in its assertion that &quot;once passed [last night], this bill immediately became the law of the land.&quot; I seem to remember the Constitution envisioning a role for the Senate and the President in bills becoming the law of the land.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I gather he was being sardonic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>it is merely asserted that it happened, not established</p></blockquote>
<p>Right.  The video shows the acting speaker saying, essentially, that they mistakenly gaveled the tally while people were still voting.</p>
<blockquote><p>"Ugh"'s comment at 9:04 is distressingly ignorant in its assertion that "once passed [last night], this bill immediately became the law of the land." I seem to remember the Constitution envisioning a role for the Senate and the President in bills becoming the law of the land.</p></blockquote>
<p>I gather he was being sardonic.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140930</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:10:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140930</guid>
		<description>Michael, I think your point two is wrong - I had understood the incident (and maybe it&#039;s me who&#039;s got it wrong) as being that votes were allowed after the gavel came down, not that there was confusion about votes cast before the gavel dropped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I think your point two is wrong - I had understood the incident (and maybe it's me who's got it wrong) as being that votes were allowed after the gavel came down, not that there was confusion about votes cast before the gavel dropped.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140927</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140927</guid>
		<description>I think Dan&#039;s point is right, James, at least to some extent. Certainly, both are procedural chicanery, but while holding open votes long after the minimum period has expired may be unseemly, but it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;far&lt;/i&gt; from unprecedented. This, on the other hand, is something quite different: the allegation that after the vote was gavelled to a close, more votes were taken. That really is different, and really is deplorable.

With that said, however, I should add that at the moment, it is merely asserted that it happened, not established. The video posted supposedly &quot;of the events&quot; does nothing to establish what took place. What&#039;s driven this story thusfar is the accounts of Representatives and staffers (on both sides), who surely shouldn&#039;t be considered a disinterested (and thus reliable) source. But there &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; a reliable source: the whole thing was carried live, on CSPAN. I want to see the &lt;i&gt;unedited&lt;/i&gt; video posted to youtube, not just a snippet. 

&quot;Ugh&quot;&#039;s comment at 9:04 is distressingly ignorant in its assertion that &quot;once passed [last night], this bill immediately became the law of the land.&quot; I seem to remember the Constitution envisioning a role for the Senate and the President in bills becoming the law of the land.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Dan's point is right, James, at least to some extent. Certainly, both are procedural chicanery, but while holding open votes long after the minimum period has expired may be unseemly, but it's <i>far</i> from unprecedented. This, on the other hand, is something quite different: the allegation that after the vote was gavelled to a close, more votes were taken. That really is different, and really is deplorable.</p>
<p>With that said, however, I should add that at the moment, it is merely asserted that it happened, not established. The video posted supposedly "of the events" does nothing to establish what took place. What's driven this story thusfar is the accounts of Representatives and staffers (on both sides), who surely shouldn't be considered a disinterested (and thus reliable) source. But there <i>is</i> a reliable source: the whole thing was carried live, on CSPAN. I want to see the <i>unedited</i> video posted to youtube, not just a snippet. </p>
<p>"Ugh"'s comment at 9:04 is distressingly ignorant in its assertion that "once passed [last night], this bill immediately became the law of the land." I seem to remember the Constitution envisioning a role for the Senate and the President in bills becoming the law of the land.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140923</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140923</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
“have you noticed these things seem to happen late at night? It seems like calmer heads always lose out in these extended sessions.”
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Sundowning&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sundowning&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
“have you noticed these things seem to happen late at night? It seems like calmer heads always lose out in these extended sessions.”
</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Sundowning" rel="nofollow">Sundowning</a></p>
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		<title>By: Balloon Juice</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140921</link>
		<dc:creator>Balloon Juice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140921</guid>
		<description>[...] appears I am not the only one to notice the connection. Good for James Joyner. And, as he notes, there is a difference between the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] appears I am not the only one to notice the connection. Good for James Joyner. And, as he notes, there is a difference between the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/republicans_walk_out_of_house_in_protest/comment-page-1/#comment-140910</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/08/20282/#comment-140910</guid>
		<description>Ok, so here&#039;s how I&#039;m reading this story, someone tell me what the Democrats did wrong:

1.) A vote was cast, sometime before and leading up to 11pm.

2.) After the vote was gaveled closed, the Majority party believed the vote was 214-214, while the Minority party believed the vote was 215-213.  Nobody is saying why there was this confusion, wasn&#039;t somebody counting?  Can we get a C-SPAN instant replay?

3.) Because of the disagreement, Majority leader Hoyer offered a re-vote, instead of just making official what his Majority party believed should be official.  If nobody was keeping count the first time, I can&#039;t think of any other way to resolve it.

4.) Republicans don&#039;t want the re-vote, I can only assume they want their belief that the vote was 215-213 made official, so they walk out.

5.) With disagreement about the actual outcome of the vote, and Republicans refusing a re-vote, and I  assume not enough reps left for quorum, the House didn&#039;t record any outcome of the vote in the official record.  What other choice was there, really?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, so here's how I'm reading this story, someone tell me what the Democrats did wrong:</p>
<p>1.) A vote was cast, sometime before and leading up to 11pm.</p>
<p>2.) After the vote was gaveled closed, the Majority party believed the vote was 214-214, while the Minority party believed the vote was 215-213.  Nobody is saying why there was this confusion, wasn't somebody counting?  Can we get a C-SPAN instant replay?</p>
<p>3.) Because of the disagreement, Majority leader Hoyer offered a re-vote, instead of just making official what his Majority party believed should be official.  If nobody was keeping count the first time, I can't think of any other way to resolve it.</p>
<p>4.) Republicans don't want the re-vote, I can only assume they want their belief that the vote was 215-213 made official, so they walk out.</p>
<p>5.) With disagreement about the actual outcome of the vote, and Republicans refusing a re-vote, and I  assume not enough reps left for quorum, the House didn't record any outcome of the vote in the official record.  What other choice was there, really?</p>
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