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	<title>Comments on: Retired Generals Call for Rumsfeld Resignation</title>
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		<title>By: chez Diva &#187; Profiles In Cowardice</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-79444</link>
		<dc:creator>chez Diva &#187; Profiles In Cowardice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-79444</guid>
		<description>[...] ****Legion a commenter at Outside the Beltway wrote this (emphasis mine): “Well, these guys are the experts in their field… if their advice was ignored by their bosses, leading to the current situation, they have a right to publically say so (after leaving active duty). I just wish even one of them had had the guts to throw their stars down on the table at the time it was happening, when there was a chance the country might’ve been able to change course. Fogleman did it to Clinton over the treatment of the commander at Khobar Towers; why couldn’t any of these guys do it to keep us out of a botched war plan?” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ****Legion a commenter at Outside the Beltway wrote this (emphasis mine): “Well, these guys are the experts in their field… if their advice was ignored by their bosses, leading to the current situation, they have a right to publically say so (after leaving active duty). I just wish even one of them had had the guts to throw their stars down on the table at the time it was happening, when there was a chance the country might&rsquo;ve been able to change course. Fogleman did it to Clinton over the treatment of the commander at Khobar Towers; why couldn&rsquo;t any of these guys do it to keep us out of a botched war plan?” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: chez Diva &#187; The anti-Rumsfeld Retired Generals</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-79364</link>
		<dc:creator>chez Diva &#187; The anti-Rumsfeld Retired Generals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-79364</guid>
		<description>[...] ****Legion a commenter at Outside the Beltway wrote this (emphasis mine): “Well, these guys are the experts in their field… if their advice was ignored by their bosses, leading to the current situation, they have a right to publically say so (after leaving active duty). I just wish even one of them had had the guts to throw their stars down on the table at the time it was happening, when there was a chance the country might’ve been able to change course. Fogleman did it to Clinton over the treatment of the commander at Khobar Towers; why couldn’t any of these guys do it to keep us out of a botched war plan?” [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ****Legion a commenter at Outside the Beltway wrote this (emphasis mine): “Well, these guys are the experts in their field… if their advice was ignored by their bosses, leading to the current situation, they have a right to publically say so (after leaving active duty). I just wish even one of them had had the guts to throw their stars down on the table at the time it was happening, when there was a chance the country might&rsquo;ve been able to change course. Fogleman did it to Clinton over the treatment of the commander at Khobar Towers; why couldn&rsquo;t any of these guys do it to keep us out of a botched war plan?” [...]</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-79116</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Apr 2006 03:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-79116</guid>
		<description>so now the haters of the military are chumming-up to a bunch of generals. cute irony!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so now the haters of the military are chumming-up to a bunch of generals. cute irony!</p>
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		<title>By: chez Diva &#187; Real Heroes and Big Zeroes</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-79051</link>
		<dc:creator>chez Diva &#187; Real Heroes and Big Zeroes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Apr 2006 17:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-79051</guid>
		<description>[...] ****Legion a commentor at Outside the Beltway wrote this (emphasis mine): &#8220;Well, these guys are the experts in their field… if their advice was ignored by their bosses, leading to the current situation, they have a right to publically say so (after leaving active duty). I just wish even one of them had had the guts to throw their stars down on the table at the time it was happening, when there was a chance the country might’ve been able to change course. Fogleman did it to Clinton over the treatment of the commander at Khobar Towers; why couldn’t any of these guys do it to keep us out of a botched war plan?&#8221;  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ****Legion a commentor at Outside the Beltway wrote this (emphasis mine): &#8220;Well, these guys are the experts in their field… if their advice was ignored by their bosses, leading to the current situation, they have a right to publically say so (after leaving active duty). I just wish even one of them had had the guts to throw their stars down on the table at the time it was happening, when there was a chance the country might&rsquo;ve been able to change course. Fogleman did it to Clinton over the treatment of the commander at Khobar Towers; why couldn&rsquo;t any of these guys do it to keep us out of a botched war plan?&#8221;  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jem</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-79005</link>
		<dc:creator>Jem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Apr 2006 08:59:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-79005</guid>
		<description>Seeing flag officers going public like this bothers me a little, even though these retired officers unquestionably have the right to do so. Military culture does not, as a rule, support taking this sort of thing into the public domain.  While it&#039;s not much of an issue for some retired colonel or more junior officer to play the heretic, it&#039;s different with flag officers.  These guys don&#039;t lose their influence when they retire--they all have former subordinates still on active duty who are now or will become influential flag officers themselves--and these comments will live on for years and will help to undermine the respect the uniformed military must have for its civilian masters, even after the current administration is gone.  Even if the retired officers are completely right in their complaints and assessments, it is likely the damage their public statements will do exceeds the benefits that might accrue.

Even if the uniformed military&#039;s respect is not returned or deserved by the civilian leadership (as in the Clinton years), it is poor leadership practice to allow the folks at the top of the chain of command to be undermined.  The civilian leadership won&#039;t order the current crop of senior officers to go out and dispute these statements--they won&#039;t have to.  The current uniformed DoD leadership will have to defend the civilian leadership (even if they agree with those griping in retirement about the sins of Rumsfeld and his team) in order to preserve good order and discipline.  Those speaking out have not just acted to undermine the political leadership in a time of war, but their contemporaries and successors in the uniformed leadership as well.

By the way, I&#039;m a serving military officer (in the Reserves) and have served on the Joint Staff during the Clinton and George W. Bush Administrations.  Though my time in the Pentagon never gave me access to the senior leadership of the Pentagon&#039;s E-Ring (I used to see Lt Gen Newbold and sometimes then-Lt Gen Abazaid in briefings--but there&#039;s no way either would remember me if I bumped into him on the street), I did hear the occasional whisper of discontent. There&#039;s nothing unusual about having friction between the uniformed and civilian sides of the Pentagon.  It&#039;s just not that common for the disputes to play out in public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing flag officers going public like this bothers me a little, even though these retired officers unquestionably have the right to do so. Military culture does not, as a rule, support taking this sort of thing into the public domain.  While it's not much of an issue for some retired colonel or more junior officer to play the heretic, it's different with flag officers.  These guys don't lose their influence when they retire--they all have former subordinates still on active duty who are now or will become influential flag officers themselves--and these comments will live on for years and will help to undermine the respect the uniformed military must have for its civilian masters, even after the current administration is gone.  Even if the retired officers are completely right in their complaints and assessments, it is likely the damage their public statements will do exceeds the benefits that might accrue.</p>
<p>Even if the uniformed military's respect is not returned or deserved by the civilian leadership (as in the Clinton years), it is poor leadership practice to allow the folks at the top of the chain of command to be undermined.  The civilian leadership won't order the current crop of senior officers to go out and dispute these statements--they won't have to.  The current uniformed DoD leadership will have to defend the civilian leadership (even if they agree with those griping in retirement about the sins of Rumsfeld and his team) in order to preserve good order and discipline.  Those speaking out have not just acted to undermine the political leadership in a time of war, but their contemporaries and successors in the uniformed leadership as well.</p>
<p>By the way, I'm a serving military officer (in the Reserves) and have served on the Joint Staff during the Clinton and George W. Bush Administrations.  Though my time in the Pentagon never gave me access to the senior leadership of the Pentagon's E-Ring (I used to see Lt Gen Newbold and sometimes then-Lt Gen Abazaid in briefings--but there's no way either would remember me if I bumped into him on the street), I did hear the occasional whisper of discontent. There's nothing unusual about having friction between the uniformed and civilian sides of the Pentagon.  It's just not that common for the disputes to play out in public.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-78988</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Apr 2006 03:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-78988</guid>
		<description>Well, &quot;success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan&quot;.

While McMaster&#039;s book may be required reading, I&#039;m not so sure that people are drawing the correct conclusions from his work. And as noted above, we don&#039;t hear about anyone who is so concerned that they resign in disgust or refuse an assignment. And it&#039;s hard to estimate the influence of ego. You don&#039;t get to be a general unless you have a high opinion of your abilities and most of them are dedicated enough to beleive they can make a silk purse of of a sow&#039;s ear.

So it&#039;s hard to draw any useful conclusions from the complaints of a few generals who have opted to opine in public. And how to separate personal opinions about Rumsfeld/DoD staff &quot;style&quot; vice military competence? For all we know some of this angst is over &quot;manners&quot;. Generals like to be stroked, maybe more so than the average human. Perhaps Rumsfeld had the temerity to challenge someones deeply felt belief. We have no way of knowing the motivations behind any of this.

The other challenge is separating out resentment over how DoD allocates resources and sets priorities. It&#039;s pretty clear that the current modernization trends disfavor large segments of the more traditional combat services. Unlike the 70s, we are not going to witness a rehash of the battles between conventional and &quot;special&quot; forces. Spec Ops has clearly got the upper hand today and let&#039;s face it, it&#039;s always been a small and insular community with not much use for the rest of the services. How many times has someone told you, &quot;I could tell you what I do, but I&#039;d have to kill you.&quot;

Rumsfeld has probably had the most difficult challenges a Sec Def has seen since 1947. Unlike the late great Caspar Weinberger, who was able to turn on the money spigot and basically say to all the services, make it better faster...Rumsfeld has to tell the services &quot;here&#039;s five loaves and three fishes, go make a war and then make a peace and do it better, faster and cheaper.&quot;

To sum up, sure generals should be free to speak their minds. You never know, one might actually come up with an original thought. What I like about Rumsfeld is it appears he is not afraid to make a decision, nor is he afraid of being held accountable. Has he made mistakes? Hard to say today, much easier to judge five years from now. Unfortunately we all live on internet time now. That means no error is too small or inconsequential to be bruited about as a &quot;disaster&quot;. It also means victory has a shelf life of about five minutes.

The more I see how things unfold today, the more I think about how patience is not just a virtue, it is THE virtue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, "success has a thousand fathers and failure is an orphan".</p>
<p>While McMaster's book may be required reading, I'm not so sure that people are drawing the correct conclusions from his work. And as noted above, we don't hear about anyone who is so concerned that they resign in disgust or refuse an assignment. And it's hard to estimate the influence of ego. You don't get to be a general unless you have a high opinion of your abilities and most of them are dedicated enough to beleive they can make a silk purse of of a sow's ear.</p>
<p>So it's hard to draw any useful conclusions from the complaints of a few generals who have opted to opine in public. And how to separate personal opinions about Rumsfeld/DoD staff "style" vice military competence? For all we know some of this angst is over "manners". Generals like to be stroked, maybe more so than the average human. Perhaps Rumsfeld had the temerity to challenge someones deeply felt belief. We have no way of knowing the motivations behind any of this.</p>
<p>The other challenge is separating out resentment over how DoD allocates resources and sets priorities. It's pretty clear that the current modernization trends disfavor large segments of the more traditional combat services. Unlike the 70s, we are not going to witness a rehash of the battles between conventional and "special" forces. Spec Ops has clearly got the upper hand today and let's face it, it's always been a small and insular community with not much use for the rest of the services. How many times has someone told you, "I could tell you what I do, but I'd have to kill you."</p>
<p>Rumsfeld has probably had the most difficult challenges a Sec Def has seen since 1947. Unlike the late great Caspar Weinberger, who was able to turn on the money spigot and basically say to all the services, make it better faster...Rumsfeld has to tell the services "here's five loaves and three fishes, go make a war and then make a peace and do it better, faster and cheaper."</p>
<p>To sum up, sure generals should be free to speak their minds. You never know, one might actually come up with an original thought. What I like about Rumsfeld is it appears he is not afraid to make a decision, nor is he afraid of being held accountable. Has he made mistakes? Hard to say today, much easier to judge five years from now. Unfortunately we all live on internet time now. That means no error is too small or inconsequential to be bruited about as a "disaster". It also means victory has a shelf life of about five minutes.</p>
<p>The more I see how things unfold today, the more I think about how patience is not just a virtue, it is THE virtue.</p>
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		<title>By: Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-78918</link>
		<dc:creator>Unpartisan.com Political News and Blog Aggregator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:08:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-78918</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Another retired general amplifies calls for Rumsfeld&#039;s resignation...&lt;/strong&gt;

The retired commander of key forces in Iraq called Wednesday for Donald Rumsfeld to step down, joini...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Another retired general amplifies calls for Rumsfeld's resignation...</strong></p>
<p>The retired commander of key forces in Iraq called Wednesday for Donald Rumsfeld to step down, joini...</p>
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		<title>By: SgtFluffy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-78917</link>
		<dc:creator>SgtFluffy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Apr 2006 19:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-78917</guid>
		<description>I hear Rumsfeld is calling for these Generals to &quot;Shut the Hell up&quot;, just hearsay though</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear Rumsfeld is calling for these Generals to "Shut the Hell up", just hearsay though</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-78905</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-78905</guid>
		<description>What is most interesting about this is that it turns the old mythological &#039;spitting&#039; in the face of our soldiers on its head. 

So far we have four generals publicly spitting in the face of Bush by calling for the firing of Rumsfield. 

While the old myth of the public disdain for the military was never really true, the loathing the professional military holds for Bush is up front and center and proudly on display for all to see.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is most interesting about this is that it turns the old mythological 'spitting' in the face of our soldiers on its head. </p>
<p>So far we have four generals publicly spitting in the face of Bush by calling for the firing of Rumsfield. </p>
<p>While the old myth of the public disdain for the military was never really true, the loathing the professional military holds for Bush is up front and center and proudly on display for all to see.</p>
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		<title>By: Bhoe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-78904</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:49:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-78904</guid>
		<description>These so-called &quot;generals&quot; are a bunch of liberal scumbags and traitors--they are just as bad as Cindy Sheehan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These so-called "generals" are a bunch of liberal scumbags and traitors--they are just as bad as Cindy Sheehan.</p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/comment-page-1/#comment-78898</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/04/retired_generals_call_for_rumsfeld_resignation/#comment-78898</guid>
		<description>Well, these guys are the experts in their field... if their advice was ignored by their bosses, leading to the current situation, they have a right to publically say so (after leaving active duty). I just wish even one of them had had the guts to throw their stars down on the table at the time it was happening, when there was a chance the country might&#039;ve been able to change course. Fogleman did it to Clinton over the treatment of the commander at Khobar Towers; why couldn&#039;t any of these guys do it to keep us out of a botched war plan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, these guys are the experts in their field... if their advice was ignored by their bosses, leading to the current situation, they have a right to publically say so (after leaving active duty). I just wish even one of them had had the guts to throw their stars down on the table at the time it was happening, when there was a chance the country might've been able to change course. Fogleman did it to Clinton over the treatment of the commander at Khobar Towers; why couldn't any of these guys do it to keep us out of a botched war plan?</p>
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