<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Rich Work More than the &#8216;Working Class&#8217;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/</link>
	<description>Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:28:09 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Chicago Boyz &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Overworked Class</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511938</link>
		<dc:creator>Chicago Boyz &#187; Blog Archive &#187; The Overworked Class</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511938</guid>
		<description>[...] been use to the phrase, &#8220;the working class&#8221; but this article [h/t Instapundit] leads me to think we might need a knew one. Try this on for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] been use to the phrase, &#8220;the working class&#8221; but this article [h/t Instapundit] leads me to think we might need a knew one. Try this on for [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511894</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511894</guid>
		<description>In the comments I see lots of anecdote and not much data. People tend to convert narrative--their own personal experience--into &quot;data.&quot; The problem is that narrative does not often account for real experience. 

&quot;Work&quot; for lower income families is often made up of their first job, plus a second job, plus family care, plus home chores and more . A Yuppie making $200K or $300K or $400K has one job that may amount to 50 or 60 hours a week or so, but farms out the rest. 

I certainly do that.

I am a professional who, by choice, lives in a rural area. Based on what I know about the families around me, I wonder if the data referenced in this report takes account of second and third jobs and the other work that many middle and lower tier families must undertake to make ends meet. 

In sum, I know lots of lawyers and doctors. I don&#039;t know many of those who work harder than the working class families around me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the comments I see lots of anecdote and not much data. People tend to convert narrative--their own personal experience--into "data." The problem is that narrative does not often account for real experience. </p>
<p>"Work" for lower income families is often made up of their first job, plus a second job, plus family care, plus home chores and more . A Yuppie making $200K or $300K or $400K has one job that may amount to 50 or 60 hours a week or so, but farms out the rest. </p>
<p>I certainly do that.</p>
<p>I am a professional who, by choice, lives in a rural area. Based on what I know about the families around me, I wonder if the data referenced in this report takes account of second and third jobs and the other work that many middle and lower tier families must undertake to make ends meet. </p>
<p>In sum, I know lots of lawyers and doctors. I don't know many of those who work harder than the working class families around me.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511890</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 01:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511890</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m one of those sick people who enjoy my work.  I think that &quot;the rich&quot; tend to work more because they self select fields that interest them and fields that also pay for performance.  Most people I know don&#039;t work for the extras, they work because they like it, find it enjoyable and dare I say a &quot;leisure activity&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm one of those sick people who enjoy my work.  I think that "the rich" tend to work more because they self select fields that interest them and fields that also pay for performance.  Most people I know don't work for the extras, they work because they like it, find it enjoyable and dare I say a "leisure activity".</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Who works more, the rich or the blue collar class? - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511888</link>
		<dc:creator>Who works more, the rich or the blue collar class? - U.S. Politics Online: A Political Discussion Forum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 00:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511888</guid>
		<description>[...] means that the industrous people will be rich and the dumb asses will be poor. Plain and simple.  Rich Work More than the &#8216;Working Class&#8217;    [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] means that the industrous people will be rich and the dumb asses will be poor. Plain and simple.  Rich Work More than the &#8216;Working Class&#8217;    [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511879</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 23:49:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511879</guid>
		<description>Tangent:
I recall Drew Carey on an interesting Reason TV segment.  He featured an economist who declared that the middle class are increasingly compensated with time rather than money.  Not only do they have more liesure time, but less time is required to afford necessities and luxuries of life.

href=&quot;http://online.wsj.com/public/page/8_0006.html?bcpid=86195573&amp;bclid=212338097&amp;bctid=1400565213&quot;&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tangent:<br />
I recall Drew Carey on an interesting Reason TV segment.  He featured an economist who declared that the middle class are increasingly compensated with time rather than money.  Not only do they have more liesure time, but less time is required to afford necessities and luxuries of life.</p>
<p>href="http://online.wsj.com/public/page/8_0006.html?bcpid=86195573&amp;bclid=212338097&amp;bctid=1400565213"&gt;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Pinto</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511878</link>
		<dc:creator>David Pinto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 23:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511878</guid>
		<description>When my main job was computer programmer, I was always working.  I wrote code in my head in the shower.  I&#039;d take my daily walk and think about solving a problem.  There was little down time for me.  It&#039;s also the reason I was pissed off I had to fill out a time card when I was salaried.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When my main job was computer programmer, I was always working.  I wrote code in my head in the shower.  I'd take my daily walk and think about solving a problem.  There was little down time for me.  It's also the reason I was pissed off I had to fill out a time card when I was salaried.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: nlcatter</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511863</link>
		<dc:creator>nlcatter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 23:01:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511863</guid>
		<description>ive done both 
and rather have this white collar job

most of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ive done both<br />
and rather have this white collar job</p>
<p>most of the time.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: moqui</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511858</link>
		<dc:creator>moqui</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 22:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511858</guid>
		<description>We work longer and harder, true, but we also take better and more frequent vacations.

Six years ago, I was making less than $40K per year and could only afford to take a week a year to go fishing.  Now, my business is thriving and already this year I&#039;ve spent a week in Sedona and two weeks in Maui.  I&#039;m taking 5 days next week to Whidbey Island, and all of Thanksgiving week in Baja.

On the flip side, I will be working the mornings of Xmas and New Year&#039;s day, but it&#039;s a worthwhile tradeoff, IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We work longer and harder, true, but we also take better and more frequent vacations.</p>
<p>Six years ago, I was making less than $40K per year and could only afford to take a week a year to go fishing.  Now, my business is thriving and already this year I've spent a week in Sedona and two weeks in Maui.  I'm taking 5 days next week to Whidbey Island, and all of Thanksgiving week in Baja.</p>
<p>On the flip side, I will be working the mornings of Xmas and New Year's day, but it's a worthwhile tradeoff, IMHO.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511841</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 20:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511841</guid>
		<description>Calculating one&#039;s imputed hourly wage is not all that hard, and for people at the upper end of the income distribution I&#039;m pretty sure all of them can do it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;For most, there&#039;s no sense that, &quot;If I put in another couple hours a day, I&#039;ll net another $20k this year.&quot; &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Actually it might.  I was talking to a guy who was working on a deal that sounds very much like that and that was his reasoning.  &quot;I work a few hours more a week and look at that payoff. Done and Done.&quot;  Granted it isn&#039;t as cut and dry as a guy on an hourly wage with time-and-half for over time, and double time for holiday pay, etc., but it seems that logic is similar if a bit more fuzzy around the edges.

Other than the fact that those at the upper end my have an upward sloping labor supply curve everywhere in regards to the &quot;imputed&quot; wage rate, I don&#039;t see all that much to get excited about.  It is like getting excited about a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Giffen good&lt;/a&gt;*...unless your an economist its not all that interesting.

*Clear sign I&#039;m an econ-geek...a geekonomist I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calculating one's imputed hourly wage is not all that hard, and for people at the upper end of the income distribution I'm pretty sure all of them can do it.</p>
<blockquote><p>For most, there's no sense that, "If I put in another couple hours a day, I'll net another $20k this year." </p></blockquote>
<p>Actually it might.  I was talking to a guy who was working on a deal that sounds very much like that and that was his reasoning.  "I work a few hours more a week and look at that payoff. Done and Done."  Granted it isn't as cut and dry as a guy on an hourly wage with time-and-half for over time, and double time for holiday pay, etc., but it seems that logic is similar if a bit more fuzzy around the edges.</p>
<p>Other than the fact that those at the upper end my have an upward sloping labor supply curve everywhere in regards to the "imputed" wage rate, I don't see all that much to get excited about.  It is like getting excited about a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good" rel="nofollow">Giffen good</a>*...unless your an economist its not all that interesting.</p>
<p>*Clear sign I'm an econ-geek...a geekonomist I guess.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: carpeicthus</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511628</link>
		<dc:creator>carpeicthus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:41:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511628</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a freelancer. My work-week is 24/7, and my boss knows that I&#039;m goofing off right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm a freelancer. My work-week is 24/7, and my boss knows that I'm goofing off right now.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511615</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511615</guid>
		<description>I discovered rather quickly that working at State Dept., you could really be abused depending on your place of assignment.

In Saudi Arabia, for instance, not only did you have an eight-hour time difference--your office is notionally closing just as Washington is notionally opening--but the difference in local weekends--Sat-Sun. in DC; Thurs-Fri. in the KSA--meant you were basically on-call 24/7. No amount of extra work was going to get you overtime. At most, you might hope to outwork competitors around the world in the same grade and thus earn a promotion.

Then there&#039;s that annoying clash of cultural hours. Saudis tend to work and play at night. No one, other than perhaps doctors, would be at his office until late morning or early afternoon. That meant that an embassy employee was going to be working late if he had to deal face-to-face with Saudis. In fact, I had more dinners at midnight or later than I had at 7:00pm. But the embassy, as an instrumentality of the USG, had office hours of 8:30-5:00, less the wrath of Congress descend. 

Other countries in the region had similar problems if not quite so bad. Much of the Levant and Egypt have a Fri-Sat weekend, something which most of the Arab Gulf States have now adopted.

Salaries that might have seemed high could also look rather paltry (under minimum wage, actually) if you calculated them on a 24/7 basis.

Most irksome, though, was the fact that headquarters, manned by other Foreign Service Officers, couldn&#039;t keep the time and weekend differences straight. They&#039;d been on the receiving end themselves, but went amnesiac when they were on the giving end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I discovered rather quickly that working at State Dept., you could really be abused depending on your place of assignment.</p>
<p>In Saudi Arabia, for instance, not only did you have an eight-hour time difference--your office is notionally closing just as Washington is notionally opening--but the difference in local weekends--Sat-Sun. in DC; Thurs-Fri. in the KSA--meant you were basically on-call 24/7. No amount of extra work was going to get you overtime. At most, you might hope to outwork competitors around the world in the same grade and thus earn a promotion.</p>
<p>Then there's that annoying clash of cultural hours. Saudis tend to work and play at night. No one, other than perhaps doctors, would be at his office until late morning or early afternoon. That meant that an embassy employee was going to be working late if he had to deal face-to-face with Saudis. In fact, I had more dinners at midnight or later than I had at 7:00pm. But the embassy, as an instrumentality of the USG, had office hours of 8:30-5:00, less the wrath of Congress descend. </p>
<p>Other countries in the region had similar problems if not quite so bad. Much of the Levant and Egypt have a Fri-Sat weekend, something which most of the Arab Gulf States have now adopted.</p>
<p>Salaries that might have seemed high could also look rather paltry (under minimum wage, actually) if you calculated them on a 24/7 basis.</p>
<p>Most irksome, though, was the fact that headquarters, manned by other Foreign Service Officers, couldn't keep the time and weekend differences straight. They'd been on the receiving end themselves, but went amnesiac when they were on the giving end.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511610</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511610</guid>
		<description>Ambitious, driven people always have and always will work more than 40 hours a week, and certainly more than those that work to make ends meet, since those ends are met with ever greater ease as time marches on.  For the coffee acheivers, how much they work has has little to do with what they make.  I don&#039;t know what percentage of the &quot;rich&quot; this constitutes, but it runs completely orthagonal to this analysis.

Oh, and once again, &quot;rich&quot; is once again used to define income instead of assets.  I guess I&#039;ll get tired of beating that dead horse when it no longer has to be beaten.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ambitious, driven people always have and always will work more than 40 hours a week, and certainly more than those that work to make ends meet, since those ends are met with ever greater ease as time marches on.  For the coffee acheivers, how much they work has has little to do with what they make.  I don't know what percentage of the "rich" this constitutes, but it runs completely orthagonal to this analysis.</p>
<p>Oh, and once again, "rich" is once again used to define income instead of assets.  I guess I'll get tired of beating that dead horse when it no longer has to be beaten.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511601</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511601</guid>
		<description>Steve:

That&#039;s true at a theoretical level but most upper income folks aren&#039;t being paid on an hourly basis.  For most, there&#039;s no sense that,  &quot;If I put in another couple hours a day, I&#039;ll net another $20k this year.&quot;  Mostly, they&#039;re either thinking &quot;I need to put in ten hours a day or I won&#039;t be competitive for that big promotion&quot; or, even more simply, &quot;The job&#039;s not going to do itself.&quot;

So, yes, in the abstract they&#039;re trading leisure for income.  But they&#039;re not doing it in the same way that, say, an electrician&#039;s apprentice who  decides to do some jobs under the table on the weekend is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve:</p>
<p>That's true at a theoretical level but most upper income folks aren't being paid on an hourly basis.  For most, there's no sense that,  "If I put in another couple hours a day, I'll net another $20k this year."  Mostly, they're either thinking "I need to put in ten hours a day or I won't be competitive for that big promotion" or, even more simply, "The job's not going to do itself."</p>
<p>So, yes, in the abstract they're trading leisure for income.  But they're not doing it in the same way that, say, an electrician's apprentice who  decides to do some jobs under the table on the weekend is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: chsw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511599</link>
		<dc:creator>chsw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511599</guid>
		<description>There is a policy implication in this.  Higher taxes are a disincentive to work.  As these individuals are among the most &lt;em&gt;productive&lt;/em&gt; in society, disincentivizing them will reduce their output, and the productivity loss may be greater than any static analysis would indicate.  Moreover, transferring more to those at the bottom of the income scale not only disincentivizes work, but combined with the higher tax rates for the hardworking, demonstrates that jobs, savings, and all of the processes of middle-class to upper-class achievement is - for suckers.

chsw - I guess that I&#039;m going to be suckered after this election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a policy implication in this.  Higher taxes are a disincentive to work.  As these individuals are among the most <em>productive</em> in society, disincentivizing them will reduce their output, and the productivity loss may be greater than any static analysis would indicate.  Moreover, transferring more to those at the bottom of the income scale not only disincentivizes work, but combined with the higher tax rates for the hardworking, demonstrates that jobs, savings, and all of the processes of middle-class to upper-class achievement is - for suckers.</p>
<p>chsw - I guess that I'm going to be suckered after this election.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/rich_work_more_than_the_working_class/comment-page-1/#comment-511598</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=25090#comment-511598</guid>
		<description>You guys are confusing the absolute and marginal.

&lt;blockquote&gt;It’s not just that we’re chained to the job with our email and ubiquitous BlackBerries.  Were it not for those conveniences, most of us would be forced to spend more time in the office rather than having the flexibility to work from home on occasion.   Even when we’re not consciously working, we’re fretting over the next day’s presentations, looking ahead to various problems, and otherwise engaged in work.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is not the same as,

&lt;blockquote&gt;In other words, when we get a raise, instead of using that hard-won money to buy “the good life,” we feel even more pressure to work since the shadow costs of not working are all the greater.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The first one says, &quot;Executives work lots of hours.&quot;  The second says, &quot;As the pay goes up for individuals they work more because leisure time becomes relatively more expensive.&quot;

In economics of labor/leisure trade offs there is this idea that at some level of income/hourly pay that the labor supply curve becomes backward bending.  Basically there are two effects to an increase in the wage:

The Substitution Effect:  This will tend to increase the number of hours worked as people substitute earnings for leisure.

Income Effect:  This will decrease the number of hours worked as people using the additional income to purchase more leisure.

What this is saying is that for those in the top income brackets the substitution effect dominates.  At the margin, the rich prefer to trade leisure for additional income hence consumption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You guys are confusing the absolute and marginal.</p>
<blockquote><p>It&rsquo;s not just that we&rsquo;re chained to the job with our email and ubiquitous BlackBerries.  Were it not for those conveniences, most of us would be forced to spend more time in the office rather than having the flexibility to work from home on occasion.   Even when we&rsquo;re not consciously working, we&rsquo;re fretting over the next day&rsquo;s presentations, looking ahead to various problems, and otherwise engaged in work.</p></blockquote>
<p>This is not the same as,</p>
<blockquote><p>In other words, when we get a raise, instead of using that hard-won money to buy “the good life,” we feel even more pressure to work since the shadow costs of not working are all the greater.</p></blockquote>
<p>The first one says, "Executives work lots of hours."  The second says, "As the pay goes up for individuals they work more because leisure time becomes relatively more expensive."</p>
<p>In economics of labor/leisure trade offs there is this idea that at some level of income/hourly pay that the labor supply curve becomes backward bending.  Basically there are two effects to an increase in the wage:</p>
<p>The Substitution Effect:  This will tend to increase the number of hours worked as people substitute earnings for leisure.</p>
<p>Income Effect:  This will decrease the number of hours worked as people using the additional income to purchase more leisure.</p>
<p>What this is saying is that for those in the top income brackets the substitution effect dominates.  At the margin, the rich prefer to trade leisure for additional income hence consumption.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
