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	<title>Comments on: Slouching Towards Islamabad</title>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1045334</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 23:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1045334</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t have the stones to get into a little discussion on military strategy, eh Bitsy? Gosh, and I thought you were going to school us lefties  :) Guess you read through the fine print and it said &quot;Run awayyyyyyyyyy chickenhawk&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don't have the stones to get into a little discussion on military strategy, eh Bitsy? Gosh, and I thought you were going to school us lefties  :) Guess you read through the fine print and it said "Run awayyyyyyyyyy chickenhawk"</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1045128</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1045128</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Let&#039;s set aside your rather childish attempt to pigeonhole people who disagree with you into an ideological box&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not that YOU&#039;D ever engage in such behavior, right, Anjin? Face it, you&#039;re transparent enough to read fine print through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Let's set aside your rather childish attempt to pigeonhole people who disagree with you into an ideological box</p></blockquote>
<p>Not that YOU'D ever engage in such behavior, right, Anjin? Face it, you're transparent enough to read fine print through.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1045003</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 10:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1045003</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Steve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Steve.</p>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044922</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 02:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044922</guid>
		<description>http://billandbobsadventure.blogspot.com/

http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/

http://www.registan.net/

The second one is more anthropology, with a smattering of military and politics. The first is by someone who has served in Afghanistan and is more military oriented. All three write well and are knowledgeable. I have yet to find a good blog written by an Afghan. Would be nice to see what they think.

Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://billandbobsadventure.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://billandbobsadventure.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">http://easterncampaign.wordpress.com/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.registan.net/" rel="nofollow">http://www.registan.net/</a></p>
<p>The second one is more anthropology, with a smattering of military and politics. The first is by someone who has served in Afghanistan and is more military oriented. All three write well and are knowledgeable. I have yet to find a good blog written by an Afghan. Would be nice to see what they think.</p>
<p>Steve</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044907</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 01:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044907</guid>
		<description>&gt;continued from an earlier thread

&lt;blockquote&gt;And isn&#039;t it interesting how a bunch of anti-war leftists are now suddenly experts in military tactics?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Let&#039;s set aside your rather childish attempt to pigeonhole people who disagree with you into an ideological box. Where would you like to start with our discussion of military strategy? The Peloponnesian War? The Battle Of Thermopylae? (I have been reading Herodotus, so I have Greece very much on my mind). The Punic wars? Julian&#039;s campaigns in Gaul and Parthia? 

Let&#039;s have at it. I Just finished Julius Caesar&#039;s &quot;Conquest of Gaul&quot; and have started on &quot;The Civil War&quot;, so I have my game face on.

Take you time Bit, do some Googling so you can sound informed when you get back to us...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;continued from an earlier thread</p>
<blockquote><p>And isn't it interesting how a bunch of anti-war leftists are now suddenly experts in military tactics?</p></blockquote>
<p>Let's set aside your rather childish attempt to pigeonhole people who disagree with you into an ideological box. Where would you like to start with our discussion of military strategy? The Peloponnesian War? The Battle Of Thermopylae? (I have been reading Herodotus, so I have Greece very much on my mind). The Punic wars? Julian's campaigns in Gaul and Parthia? </p>
<p>Let's have at it. I Just finished Julius Caesar's "Conquest of Gaul" and have started on "The Civil War", so I have my game face on.</p>
<p>Take you time Bit, do some Googling so you can sound informed when you get back to us...</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044883</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 23:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044883</guid>
		<description>@Steve

&lt;blockquote&gt;Hope you are reading Christian&#039;s, Blue&#039;s blogs especially on some of these cultural issues. Capt. Thompson&#039;s pdf on deploying was very illustrative.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Can you provide some links, buddy? I&#039;d like a look at those blogs, too. TIA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Steve</p>
<blockquote><p>Hope you are reading Christian's, Blue's blogs especially on some of these cultural issues. Capt. Thompson's pdf on deploying was very illustrative.</p></blockquote>
<p>Can you provide some links, buddy? I'd like a look at those blogs, too. TIA</p>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044783</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 21:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044783</guid>
		<description>Good questions Dave. I guess I would disagree that we were going to end here anyway. From the Afghan POV, it looks as though we once again left them. Faced again with a corrupt government, Karzai&#039;s, it left an opening for the Taliban. Having enough force and economic aid in country may have forestalled the Taliban re-emergence. Too bad we will never know.

    I do not see the Afghans generating an effective force anytime soon. The biggest problem, IMHO, is the governing quality in Afghanistan. If the unexpected happened, and the Afghan forces suddenly came up to speed, they would still be directed by crooks. Corruption is endemic there on a scale we just do not understand. The culture is just alien to us. Hope you are reading Christian&#039;s, Blue&#039;s blogs especially on some of these cultural issues. Capt. Thompson&#039;s pdf on deploying was very illustrative.

Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good questions Dave. I guess I would disagree that we were going to end here anyway. From the Afghan POV, it looks as though we once again left them. Faced again with a corrupt government, Karzai's, it left an opening for the Taliban. Having enough force and economic aid in country may have forestalled the Taliban re-emergence. Too bad we will never know.</p>
<p>    I do not see the Afghans generating an effective force anytime soon. The biggest problem, IMHO, is the governing quality in Afghanistan. If the unexpected happened, and the Afghan forces suddenly came up to speed, they would still be directed by crooks. Corruption is endemic there on a scale we just do not understand. The culture is just alien to us. Hope you are reading Christian's, Blue's blogs especially on some of these cultural issues. Capt. Thompson's pdf on deploying was very illustrative.</p>
<p>Steve</p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044778</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 21:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044778</guid>
		<description>And here&#039;s another one to think about...
&lt;blockquote&gt;Some criticize the Bush Administration for the situation in which we now find ourselves, pointing out that the resources which were deployed in Iraq could have been used in Afghanistan. That’s true as far as it goes but in my view it only means we’d have gotten to where we are now sooner.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yeah, but we&#039;d be here with a military that &lt;strong&gt;hadn&#039;t&lt;/strong&gt; spent the last several years bogged down in Iraq, with the concomitant wear and tear on man &amp; machine. In short, truly finishing off AQ and the Taliban from this point would be much simpler &amp; less risky - Iraq has been far worse that a simple waste of time to this nation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And here's another one to think about...</p>
<blockquote><p>Some criticize the Bush Administration for the situation in which we now find ourselves, pointing out that the resources which were deployed in Iraq could have been used in Afghanistan. That&rsquo;s true as far as it goes but in my view it only means we&rsquo;d have gotten to where we are now sooner.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, but we'd be here with a military that <strong>hadn't</strong> spent the last several years bogged down in Iraq, with the concomitant wear and tear on man &amp; machine. In short, truly finishing off AQ and the Taliban from this point would be much simpler &amp; less risky - Iraq has been far worse that a simple waste of time to this nation.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044704</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 18:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044704</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Pakistan&#039;s interest still are for the Taliban or a like group to be in charge of Afghanistan. That is, Pakistan seeks a potential client state that is decidedly not inclined to ally with India.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That makes sense. The Pakistanis are freaked that India is trying to gain a foothold in Afghanistan. I sometimes I think the key to the Pakistan mess is in India (I believe the more rational of the two nations). Of course, things like Mumbai don&#039;t help much....or Kashmir....But still, if the India-Pakistan conflict could be resolved, that just might go some distance toward the solution of AQ-Taliban problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Pakistan's interest still are for the Taliban or a like group to be in charge of Afghanistan. That is, Pakistan seeks a potential client state that is decidedly not inclined to ally with India.</p></blockquote>
<p>That makes sense. The Pakistanis are freaked that India is trying to gain a foothold in Afghanistan. I sometimes I think the key to the Pakistan mess is in India (I believe the more rational of the two nations). Of course, things like Mumbai don't help much....or Kashmir....But still, if the India-Pakistan conflict could be resolved, that just might go some distance toward the solution of AQ-Taliban problem.</p>
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		<title>By: PD Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044700</link>
		<dc:creator>PD Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 18:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044700</guid>
		<description>Ahmed Rashid made the point on NPR this weekend that to some extent, Pakistan&#039;s interest still are for the Taliban or a like group to be in charge of Afghanistan.  That is, Pakistan seeks a potential client state that is decidedly not inclined to ally with India.

What really struck me though was Rashid&#039;s incredulity that the Bush administration did not heed his call for a generation-long commitment to the building and modernization of the Central Asian states.  His two books are good IMHO, but if he thinks that they describe a landscape that Americans want to be involved in for decades, he needs to talk to Robert Kaplan about Balkan Ghosts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahmed Rashid made the point on NPR this weekend that to some extent, Pakistan's interest still are for the Taliban or a like group to be in charge of Afghanistan.  That is, Pakistan seeks a potential client state that is decidedly not inclined to ally with India.</p>
<p>What really struck me though was Rashid's incredulity that the Bush administration did not heed his call for a generation-long commitment to the building and modernization of the Central Asian states.  His two books are good IMHO, but if he thinks that they describe a landscape that Americans want to be involved in for decades, he needs to talk to Robert Kaplan about Balkan Ghosts.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044697</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 18:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044697</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure you think that brought something to the discussion that was relevant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm sure you think that brought something to the discussion that was relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044681</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 17:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044681</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;General Bithead plans a campaign in Afghanistan&lt;/b&gt;

Gen Bit: Let&#039;s review the plan.

Aide de Decamp: As you can see on this map, the tanks are arrayed in arc formation. The arty is placed here--it should provide more than adequate protection. Machine guns are placed here, here, and here. Three companies of infantry are dug in here, here, and here.

Gen Bit: I want a fourth company here.

Aide de Decamp: That might strain our resources, sir.

Gen Bit: Nevertheless, that fourth company is essential to success. 

Aide de Decamp: Very well, sir.

Gen Bit: Air support?

Aide de Decamp: F-15s will be on station at continuously; 2 squadrons on Apaches will orbit here and here.

Gen Bit: Very good. The position seems well protected, but I think we need to armor it up some more.

Aide de Decamp: What is your thinking, sir?

Gen Bit: Well, this desk needs more steel plating. Really thick steel plating. And I want the sandbags around the office to be 4 deep and 12 high. And, just in case, I want a helo at the ready.

Aide de Decamp: I&#039;ll get on all that. I&#039;ll have the Marines send over a Sea Knight from Kaneohe Bay--should be here in a 10 minutes.

Gen Bit: Good. Can&#039;t be too prepared, you know. 

Aide de Decamp: Yes sir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>General Bithead plans a campaign in Afghanistan</b></p>
<p>Gen Bit: Let's review the plan.</p>
<p>Aide de Decamp: As you can see on this map, the tanks are arrayed in arc formation. The arty is placed here--it should provide more than adequate protection. Machine guns are placed here, here, and here. Three companies of infantry are dug in here, here, and here.</p>
<p>Gen Bit: I want a fourth company here.</p>
<p>Aide de Decamp: That might strain our resources, sir.</p>
<p>Gen Bit: Nevertheless, that fourth company is essential to success. </p>
<p>Aide de Decamp: Very well, sir.</p>
<p>Gen Bit: Air support?</p>
<p>Aide de Decamp: F-15s will be on station at continuously; 2 squadrons on Apaches will orbit here and here.</p>
<p>Gen Bit: Very good. The position seems well protected, but I think we need to armor it up some more.</p>
<p>Aide de Decamp: What is your thinking, sir?</p>
<p>Gen Bit: Well, this desk needs more steel plating. Really thick steel plating. And I want the sandbags around the office to be 4 deep and 12 high. And, just in case, I want a helo at the ready.</p>
<p>Aide de Decamp: I'll get on all that. I'll have the Marines send over a Sea Knight from Kaneohe Bay--should be here in a 10 minutes.</p>
<p>Gen Bit: Good. Can't be too prepared, you know. </p>
<p>Aide de Decamp: Yes sir.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044677</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 16:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044677</guid>
		<description>I think it is true that had we brought more weight to bear in Afghanistan earlier, the rough beasts that are the Taliban and AQ would have in all probabilty done as they have, and we would have gotten to this point sooner. But maybe the greater gravity of our presence in Afghanistan might have goaded the Pakastani leadership into action sooner, too. As your lede indicates, they seemed now to be genuinely alarmed at the Talibani successes: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/world/asia/09pstan.html?_r=1&amp;scp=3&amp;sq=filkins%20pakistan&amp;st=cse&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pakistan Pounds Taliban, Swelling the Tide of Refugees&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/world/asia/10pstan.html?scp=4&amp;sq=pakistan&amp;st=cse&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;From Air and Ground, Pakistan Strikes Back at Taliban&lt;/a&gt;.

As to this:  &lt;blockquote&gt;The typical practice of insurgents is to confront the military in open battle, conventional military conflict, when they’re strong enough to do so only to return to nonconventional strategies if they’re defeated. Can Pakistani officials be fool enough to believe otherwise?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My reading tells me that the political stock of the Taliban in Pakistan is decreasing daily, and not just among the Pakistani elites. Will the Taliban fish find enough water to swim in in Pakistan proper and the Federally Administered Tribal Areas? I think it&#039;s less of a sure thing now than it was a few months ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is true that had we brought more weight to bear in Afghanistan earlier, the rough beasts that are the Taliban and AQ would have in all probabilty done as they have, and we would have gotten to this point sooner. But maybe the greater gravity of our presence in Afghanistan might have goaded the Pakastani leadership into action sooner, too. As your lede indicates, they seemed now to be genuinely alarmed at the Talibani successes: <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/world/asia/09pstan.html?_r=1&amp;scp=3&amp;sq=filkins%20pakistan&amp;st=cse" rel="nofollow">Pakistan Pounds Taliban, Swelling the Tide of Refugees</a> and <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/world/asia/10pstan.html?scp=4&amp;sq=pakistan&amp;st=cse" rel="nofollow">From Air and Ground, Pakistan Strikes Back at Taliban</a>.</p>
<p>As to this:<br />
<blockquote>The typical practice of insurgents is to confront the military in open battle, conventional military conflict, when they&rsquo;re strong enough to do so only to return to nonconventional strategies if they&rsquo;re defeated. Can Pakistani officials be fool enough to believe otherwise?</p></blockquote>
<p>My reading tells me that the political stock of the Taliban in Pakistan is decreasing daily, and not just among the Pakistani elites. Will the Taliban fish find enough water to swim in in Pakistan proper and the Federally Administered Tribal Areas? I think it's less of a sure thing now than it was a few months ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044676</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 16:26:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044676</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Now you&#039;re saying they&#039;re stupidly pro-war. You can&#039;t even keep your invective straight--why should anyone credit anything you say?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, I&#039;m still saying they&#039;re anti-war. I said at the time that such constration on Afghanistan while ignoring Iraq would have been counter productive at least... a point which current events have proven. (I also suggested at the time that serious control of Afghanistan without first controlling Iraq would be impossible...a point to which I still hold.)


As for the rest, the best way to convince someone that a group of people are inept, or that a particular posicy is a bad one, such as the military solution... is to try and apply such in impossible ways. Example, consntrating on Afghanistan as the left wanted. Dumb, and I think intentionally so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Now you're saying they're stupidly pro-war. You can't even keep your invective straight--why should anyone credit anything you say?</p></blockquote>
<p>No, I'm still saying they're anti-war. I said at the time that such constration on Afghanistan while ignoring Iraq would have been counter productive at least... a point which current events have proven. (I also suggested at the time that serious control of Afghanistan without first controlling Iraq would be impossible...a point to which I still hold.)</p>
<p>As for the rest, the best way to convince someone that a group of people are inept, or that a particular posicy is a bad one, such as the military solution... is to try and apply such in impossible ways. Example, consntrating on Afghanistan as the left wanted. Dumb, and I think intentionally so.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/slouching_towards_islamabad/comment-page-1/#comment-1044667</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 15:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36046#comment-1044667</guid>
		<description>@Dave

&lt;blockquote&gt; Some criticize the Bush Administration for the situation in which we now find ourselves, pointing out that the resources which were deployed in Iraq could have been used in Afghanistan. That’s true as far as it goes but in my view it only means we’d have gotten to where we are now sooner.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

@Bithead

&lt;blockquote&gt;True, and this is a point I made some time ago, when the subject of Democrats and their demands for increased commitments for Afghanistan first came up. If I&#039;m not much mistaken, this also came up in a recent thread here.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Glad to see that the von Clausewitz of upstate New York weighing in with his observations. What you said in the previous thread was that the Democrats were stupidly anti-war: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;

we now have a leftist congress and president, the entire party of which ran on an anti-war platform.

Not anti-Iraq war.
Anti-war. Period.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now you&#039;re saying they&#039;re stupidly pro-war. You can&#039;t even keep your invective straight--why should anyone credit &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; you say?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dave</p>
<blockquote><p> Some criticize the Bush Administration for the situation in which we now find ourselves, pointing out that the resources which were deployed in Iraq could have been used in Afghanistan. That&rsquo;s true as far as it goes but in my view it only means we&rsquo;d have gotten to where we are now sooner.</p></blockquote>
<p>@Bithead</p>
<blockquote><p>True, and this is a point I made some time ago, when the subject of Democrats and their demands for increased commitments for Afghanistan first came up. If I'm not much mistaken, this also came up in a recent thread here.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Glad to see that the von Clausewitz of upstate New York weighing in with his observations. What you said in the previous thread was that the Democrats were stupidly anti-war: </p>
<blockquote>
<p>we now have a leftist congress and president, the entire party of which ran on an anti-war platform.</p>
<p>Not anti-Iraq war.<br />
Anti-war. Period.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now you're saying they're stupidly pro-war. You can't even keep your invective straight--why should anyone credit <i>anything</i> you say?</p>
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