I only pray that his sacrifice pays true dividends for the people he gave his life for.

Time, indeed, will tell if it was worth it

GA, GA...

You know I hope I live to see the real history.

Some of us have lived the "real history", some of us have watched mother's and brother's bury their children and their siblings, children who we watched grow up, get shipped off 10,000 miles away, only to come back in a box. I know Jimmy thought it was worth it... And I only hope he was right.

Time will tell.

You know I hope I live to see the real history, that tells how the propaganda that was given to our enemies prolonged the war and how many more lives it cost.

You mean as opposed to how the Bush Administration royally screwed up an occupation and reconstruction by removing the most qualified Arabists and individuals with regards to the region because it didn't think they were "on board", replacing them with twenties-age political appointees whose main qualifications were that they were politically connected to the Bush Administration? Or how Bush and his generals ignored decades worth of counter-insurgency knowledge about how you need to protect the population in favor of "helping the Iraqis help themselves" because they didn't want to commit any more troops?

Or while he was our friend, which is actually when most of his genocidal activity (as against the Kurds) took place.

And now, 4.5 million refugees and at least 100,000 Iraqi noncombatants killed because of what *we* did.

What I can guarantee, however, is that very, very little ink will be spilled in the U.S. media about those Iraqis. In fact, they don't exist.

Just as they didn't exist under the Hussein regime, as they were slaughtered while he was "contained."

Dave, but are we?

Yes, vastly. Because Iraq would have devolved into blood soaked chaos that would have made 2006 look like summer camp if the US would have withdrawn at that time. In fact, calls for disengagement at the absolute worst point were misinformed and irresponsible, though no one is immune to making mistakes about Iraq.

I'm sure apologies for accusations of surrender and wanting to lose the war to win an election will be forthcoming. I'm sure of it.

I'll make the accusation, at least as far as pointing out that holding Obama to his word at points in his rhetoric would have constituted de facto surrender to AQI. Obama's position may have morphed into realism after fortuitous events, but anyone pretending that his positions have been anything other than simple, cynical, often incoherent positioning as "anti-Bush," rather than a product of some prescient, responsible analysis ... well, that person would be kidding themself.

I agree that it's a good agreement, and definitely more in line with what Obama committed to in the campaign than with what McCain promised if he won election (indefinite U.S. troop presence in Iraq, for as long as 100 years).

However, having said that, although I don't doubt your sincerity when you say that you supported staying in Iraq once we were there "for humanitarian reasons," the reality is that the invasion, war, and occupation have created a humanitarian catastrophe that, sad to say, has not gone away and will not go away by 2011 or anytime soon -- if ever. About 4.5 million Iraqis have been displaced, at least half of them outside Iraq. And most of them will never go back to Iraq or see their homes again.

What I can guarantee, however, is that very, very little ink will be spilled in the U.S. media about those Iraqis. In fact, they don't exist.

You know I hope I live to see the real history, that tells how the propaganda that was given to our enemies prolonged the war and how many more lives it cost.

I am emphatically not arguing that the whole adventure in Iraq was worth it. I'm just saying that we're better off than if we had left in 2007.

Dave, but are we?

As I posted over at glittering eye:

"I was against the war from the beginning, and I was against the Surge as well, but not for the same reasons. I was against the war because #1, we already had one going, #2, I saw nothing to indicate that Saddam could not continue to be contained by other means, #3, the laws of unintended consequences. I was against the Surge simply because I didn’t think it would work. So far, I am still more right than wrong (remember the “Benchmarks”?).

Time will tell, if it was worth it."

Time, indeed, will tell if it was worth it.

Are our regional security interests secured?

I am emphatically not arguing that the whole adventure in Iraq was worth it. I'm just saying that we're better off than if we had left in 2007.

So what, exactly did we get out of this whole enterprise? My prediction is that, at best, Iraq will be a neutral player dealing with both the US and Iran, since many of the Shi'ite political parties have ties to Iran, while at the same time Iraq is going to need US military hardware and probably financial aid.

Since I never made such accusations, there'll be no apologies coming from me.

Alas you're one of the few people around here who would.

Note that this agreement goes beyond what President-Elect Obama has said he’ll do. Facts on the ground have outrun U. S. politics, giving him justification for what he’s promised and more.

I'm sure apologies for accusations of surrender and wanting to lose the war to win an election will be forthcoming. I'm sure of it.