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	<title>Comments on: Speed Camera Pimping Game</title>
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	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/</link>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540664</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540664</guid>
		<description>Steve; I will note your comments. I&#039;m not totally comfortable with Balko, frankly. I suggest to you that he has his own motivations which are more personal than they are constitutional. The degree of focus he exhibits on this topic lends credence to that idea.   

More, I am less than comfortable with the comparison between the situations that he pops up on the web seemingly on a weekly basis and the topic under discussion here.  That&#039;s because as screwed up as police forces get, at least there&#039;s still a human being that you can point at , which is certainly not the case with the automated systems under discussion here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve; I will note your comments. I'm not totally comfortable with Balko, frankly. I suggest to you that he has his own motivations which are more personal than they are constitutional. The degree of focus he exhibits on this topic lends credence to that idea.   </p>
<p>More, I am less than comfortable with the comparison between the situations that he pops up on the web seemingly on a weekly basis and the topic under discussion here.  That's because as screwed up as police forces get, at least there's still a human being that you can point at , which is certainly not the case with the automated systems under discussion here.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540663</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540663</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been active in political discussions on line for the last twenty years.  When I started, we were doing it at 300 baud.  

In all that time, I have been saying that 90% of the traffic laws, and specifically speed laws, have very little to do with public safety and everything to do with making money for the local governments.  And in all that time, I&#039;ve seen very little to counter that observation.  

I will suggest to you that a cup sitting in the middle of the freeway running radar is a bigger hazard to life than would be the drivers left to their natural and logical impulses.  

Most traffic enforcement is of a kindwith that kind of safeguarding we&#039;ve seen out of the T. S. A., where the person is supposedly safeguarding our travelers from Islamic radicals with bombs, are instead spending most of their time removing oversized bottles of hairspray and toothpaste and the deodorant from the suitcases of 75 year old Irish grandmothers.  It does very little to stop the real problem, but it does have the distinct quality of the government yet again being a major pain in the ass for people trying to get from point A to point B..  

And of course it also serves as a rather large monetary collection point .  

This now with the cameras were talking about, you don&#039;t even need a police officer there to make money.  The cameras are far cheaper. they work 24 hours a day without a break.   So, as with manufacturing going to the robots, the government makes even more money.  

Forget about guilty or not guilty , if that camera goes off there can&#039;t be any such thing as not guilty, after all.  Forget about small things like the constitution.  Forget the implications of big brother. forget about the fact that the justification for the law the camera supposedly is enforcing , particularly speed cameras, is questionable.  

I dare to propose to you that government as a whole loses its legitimacy to the direct degree that its laws are unreasonable.  That process is accelerated, when its enforcement is unreasonable. Both those qualities, are present in this situation.  The outcome, in the end, is quite predictable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've been active in political discussions on line for the last twenty years.  When I started, we were doing it at 300 baud.  </p>
<p>In all that time, I have been saying that 90% of the traffic laws, and specifically speed laws, have very little to do with public safety and everything to do with making money for the local governments.  And in all that time, I've seen very little to counter that observation.  </p>
<p>I will suggest to you that a cup sitting in the middle of the freeway running radar is a bigger hazard to life than would be the drivers left to their natural and logical impulses.  </p>
<p>Most traffic enforcement is of a kindwith that kind of safeguarding we've seen out of the T. S. A., where the person is supposedly safeguarding our travelers from Islamic radicals with bombs, are instead spending most of their time removing oversized bottles of hairspray and toothpaste and the deodorant from the suitcases of 75 year old Irish grandmothers.  It does very little to stop the real problem, but it does have the distinct quality of the government yet again being a major pain in the ass for people trying to get from point A to point B..  </p>
<p>And of course it also serves as a rather large monetary collection point .  </p>
<p>This now with the cameras were talking about, you don't even need a police officer there to make money.  The cameras are far cheaper. they work 24 hours a day without a break.   So, as with manufacturing going to the robots, the government makes even more money.  </p>
<p>Forget about guilty or not guilty , if that camera goes off there can't be any such thing as not guilty, after all.  Forget about small things like the constitution.  Forget the implications of big brother. forget about the fact that the justification for the law the camera supposedly is enforcing , particularly speed cameras, is questionable.  </p>
<p>I dare to propose to you that government as a whole loses its legitimacy to the direct degree that its laws are unreasonable.  That process is accelerated, when its enforcement is unreasonable. Both those qualities, are present in this situation.  The outcome, in the end, is quite predictable.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540644</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540644</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;As to the victims of this “game,” one presumes “This isn’t the car to which these plates are assigned” would be an effective defense.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

James, James, James....logic?  Do you know who you are talking about?  You should Radley Balko&#039;s story about the guy who noticed he wasn&#039;t charged sales tax on a hardware store purchase.  So he wrote out a check payable to the State of Florida (which ever department) and sent it in with a letter explaining things.  The State of Florida demanded he pay $50 in fines for failing to pay sales taxes as a business.  The guy sends another letter explaining he is a not a business, but was correcting for an oversight as a customer.  A month later he gets another threatening letter this time demanding $650 dollars or face collections and criminal charges.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wftv.com/news/18311874/detail.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Link&lt;/a&gt;

Logic and government, the two are all to frequently mutually exclusive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>As to the victims of this “game,” one presumes “This isn&rsquo;t the car to which these plates are assigned” would be an effective defense.</p></blockquote>
<p>James, James, James....logic?  Do you know who you are talking about?  You should Radley Balko's story about the guy who noticed he wasn't charged sales tax on a hardware store purchase.  So he wrote out a check payable to the State of Florida (which ever department) and sent it in with a letter explaining things.  The State of Florida demanded he pay $50 in fines for failing to pay sales taxes as a business.  The guy sends another letter explaining he is a not a business, but was correcting for an oversight as a customer.  A month later he gets another threatening letter this time demanding $650 dollars or face collections and criminal charges.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wftv.com/news/18311874/detail.html" rel="nofollow">Link</a></p>
<p>Logic and government, the two are all to frequently mutually exclusive.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540643</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540643</guid>
		<description>Start punking judges, DAs, mayors, and city councilmen, and police officers and I bet those cameras will disappear alot faster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Start punking judges, DAs, mayors, and city councilmen, and police officers and I bet those cameras will disappear alot faster.</p>
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		<title>By: Floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540640</link>
		<dc:creator>Floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540640</guid>
		<description>This is FUNNY!! Photo traffic enforcement is silly and adds little to traffic safety.

It would seem that they would notice that [in most cases] the plate doesn&#039;t match the vehicle, before issuing the ticket. At least this should cause some live human review??, or maybe they will need to upgrade recognition technology to include make model and color?
 Of course transponders &amp; GPS systems will soon eliminate the need for the camera ticket and turn every car into a snitch, ratting on it&#039;s owner at every turn!

BTW: The assumption of guilt is law in Illinois traffic court, as is implied consent!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is FUNNY!! Photo traffic enforcement is silly and adds little to traffic safety.</p>
<p>It would seem that they would notice that [in most cases] the plate doesn't match the vehicle, before issuing the ticket. At least this should cause some live human review??, or maybe they will need to upgrade recognition technology to include make model and color?<br />
 Of course transponders &amp; GPS systems will soon eliminate the need for the camera ticket and turn every car into a snitch, ratting on it's owner at every turn!</p>
<p>BTW: The assumption of guilt is law in Illinois traffic court, as is implied consent!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Plunk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540639</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Plunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540639</guid>
		<description>Bit&#039;s comment is the core of the public&#039;s disgust with speed cameras and red light cameras, guilty until proven innocent.  While the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty is incorrect Americans are raised thinking it is how our system works.  These photo enforcement tools run roughshod over that presumption.  When the average citizen is the one being treated poorly by the authorities it undermines the trust we have in our government.  The added insult of having private companies making money from this adds to our irritation.  Throw in other facts like lengthening yellows to improve safety (studied and proven better than red light cameras), random errors that allow some to escape fines, and the hassles of fighting the bureaucracy to establish innocence and you can see why the public hates them so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bit's comment is the core of the public's disgust with speed cameras and red light cameras, guilty until proven innocent.  While the entire concept of innocent until proven guilty is incorrect Americans are raised thinking it is how our system works.  These photo enforcement tools run roughshod over that presumption.  When the average citizen is the one being treated poorly by the authorities it undermines the trust we have in our government.  The added insult of having private companies making money from this adds to our irritation.  Throw in other facts like lengthening yellows to improve safety (studied and proven better than red light cameras), random errors that allow some to escape fines, and the hassles of fighting the bureaucracy to establish innocence and you can see why the public hates them so much.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540636</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540636</guid>
		<description>Glenn has made comments on the topic of Speed cameras as deployed in the UK, and recently, though I don&#039;t have the link to hand, suggested that there&#039;s a lot of people ripping the tings off lamp-posts, shooting them with slingshots, etc. 

As I suggested at my place the other day, I wonder what this says about how the various governments have been operating with these things; Guilty until proven innocent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glenn has made comments on the topic of Speed cameras as deployed in the UK, and recently, though I don't have the link to hand, suggested that there's a lot of people ripping the tings off lamp-posts, shooting them with slingshots, etc. </p>
<p>As I suggested at my place the other day, I wonder what this says about how the various governments have been operating with these things; Guilty until proven innocent.</p>
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		<title>By: rodney dill</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540625</link>
		<dc:creator>rodney dill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540625</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve had 2 speeding tickets over the last 30 years, and when this has happened I&#039;ve assessed my driving habits and slowed down. My only real fear in camera tickets is that you don&#039;t find out about the ticket until later, and could end up with several tickets without the warning/lesson that an actual stop by an officer provides. Probably not a big concern if they become widespread as you&#039;d alway assume they were there, but in the interrim it poses an issue with me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've had 2 speeding tickets over the last 30 years, and when this has happened I've assessed my driving habits and slowed down. My only real fear in camera tickets is that you don't find out about the ticket until later, and could end up with several tickets without the warning/lesson that an actual stop by an officer provides. Probably not a big concern if they become widespread as you'd alway assume they were there, but in the interrim it poses an issue with me.</p>
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		<title>By: raoul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/speed_camera_pimping_game/comment-page-1/#comment-540620</link>
		<dc:creator>raoul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=29140#comment-540620</guid>
		<description>One can sign a sworn statement in the back of the ticket stating that one was not driving the vehicle at the time of the infraction and the fine is waived.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One can sign a sworn statement in the back of the ticket stating that one was not driving the vehicle at the time of the infraction and the fine is waived.</p>
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