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	<title>Comments on: Spying and Policymaking Don&#8217;t Mix</title>
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		<title>By: RealClearPolitics - Blog Coverage</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251246</link>
		<dc:creator>RealClearPolitics - Blog Coverage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 20:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251246</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Irrefutable Estimates...&lt;/strong&gt;

Henry Kissinger is perhaps the wrong messenger for what is in fact a rather salient and important message. I touched upon it yesterday, and it deserves repeating--Once intelligence estimates become an arm of public political discourse, their very purpo...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Irrefutable Estimates...</strong></p>
<p>Henry Kissinger is perhaps the wrong messenger for what is in fact a rather salient and important message. I touched upon it yesterday, and it deserves repeating--Once intelligence estimates become an arm of public political discourse, their very purpo...</p>
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		<title>By: Cernig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251238</link>
		<dc:creator>Cernig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251238</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The question is whether having the intel bureaucracy serving as public advocates for positions undermines their effectiveness as impartial advisors.&lt;/em&gt; 

But the neocons were just fine with it when the last NIE politicized the intel to catapult the case &lt;em&gt;against&lt;/em&gt; Iran. Or when Bolton&#039;s crony Frederick Fleitz flat lied in a report to Congress to do likewise (see the post of mine you linked yesterday). 

They&#039;re just pouting because the latest one stymied their war plans. Cheney spent a year trying to bury it. Their arguments are spurious strawmen. The danger is that people buy the snakeoil the neocons and &quot;Executive First&quot;-ers have to sell, because then we&#039;ll never hear about the likes of Fleitz&#039; lying again.

The real question is whether the Bush administration&#039;s extraordinary politicisation of all branches of the federal government (remember Rove and his political classes in how each dept. could help Republicans get elected?) hinders &lt;em&gt;every&lt;/em&gt; branch&#039;s ability to be effective advisors. And the answer is &quot;yes&quot;.

Regards, C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The question is whether having the intel bureaucracy serving as public advocates for positions undermines their effectiveness as impartial advisors.</em> </p>
<p>But the neocons were just fine with it when the last NIE politicized the intel to catapult the case <em>against</em> Iran. Or when Bolton's crony Frederick Fleitz flat lied in a report to Congress to do likewise (see the post of mine you linked yesterday). </p>
<p>They're just pouting because the latest one stymied their war plans. Cheney spent a year trying to bury it. Their arguments are spurious strawmen. The danger is that people buy the snakeoil the neocons and "Executive First"-ers have to sell, because then we'll never hear about the likes of Fleitz' lying again.</p>
<p>The real question is whether the Bush administration's extraordinary politicisation of all branches of the federal government (remember Rove and his political classes in how each dept. could help Republicans get elected?) hinders <em>every</em> branch's ability to be effective advisors. And the answer is "yes".</p>
<p>Regards, C</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251226</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251226</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I would think the duty of any public servant is to serve the US as a country before offering allegiance to the Executive of the country. Since when have you started believing otherwise, James?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s not the argument.  The question is whether having the intel bureaucracy serving as public advocates for positions undermines their effectiveness as impartial advisors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I would think the duty of any public servant is to serve the US as a country before offering allegiance to the Executive of the country. Since when have you started believing otherwise, James?</p></blockquote>
<p>That's not the argument.  The question is whether having the intel bureaucracy serving as public advocates for positions undermines their effectiveness as impartial advisors.</p>
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		<title>By: bob in fla</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251223</link>
		<dc:creator>bob in fla</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251223</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Cernig on this one. In the run up to the Iraq War, the administration cherry picked the intelligence it used as the justification for entering the war. Various intelligence officials went on the record countering these half- &amp; non-truths, but no one paid attention &amp; Bush/Cheney got what they wanted. We will be paying the steep price for that for years to come.

In the case of the current NIE summary, Bush &amp; Cheney were very obviously again lying about the intelligence as a means of attacking Iran. Evidently a critical mass of the intelligence establishment found enough spine to force publication of the report. It was the only remaining method they had to protect their own credibility against administration falsehoods.

I would think the duty of any public servant is to serve the US as a country before offering allegiance to the Executive of the country. Since when have you started believing otherwise, James?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm with Cernig on this one. In the run up to the Iraq War, the administration cherry picked the intelligence it used as the justification for entering the war. Various intelligence officials went on the record countering these half- &amp; non-truths, but no one paid attention &amp; Bush/Cheney got what they wanted. We will be paying the steep price for that for years to come.</p>
<p>In the case of the current NIE summary, Bush &amp; Cheney were very obviously again lying about the intelligence as a means of attacking Iran. Evidently a critical mass of the intelligence establishment found enough spine to force publication of the report. It was the only remaining method they had to protect their own credibility against administration falsehoods.</p>
<p>I would think the duty of any public servant is to serve the US as a country before offering allegiance to the Executive of the country. Since when have you started believing otherwise, James?</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251218</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 19:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251218</guid>
		<description>

&lt;em&gt;Off topic comment in violation of &lt;a href=&quot;http://otbmedia.org/policies.html&quot; title=&quot;OTB Site Policies&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;site policies&lt;/a&gt; deleted.&lt;/em&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Off topic comment in violation of <a href="http://otbmedia.org/policies.html" title="OTB Site Policies" rel="nofollow">site policies</a> deleted.</em></p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251192</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251192</guid>
		<description>Right on, C.

If the NIE and other bits of intel like it are what our nation&#039;s senior leaders use to make decisions on foreign policy, going to war, etc., why _shouldn&#039;t_ the public (that, don&#039;t forget, those leaders represent and are beholden to) be capable of drawing conclusions, forming opinions, and demanding their leaders reflect those opinions in their actions from similar information?

The simple answer, and the one most likely considering Kissinger&#039;s (and N-Pod&#039;s) past is the intense desire to place those in power above second-guessing, oversight, or consequences for their actions. Neocons want Big Daddy to come and take care of them - it&#039;s been their social policy all along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right on, C.</p>
<p>If the NIE and other bits of intel like it are what our nation's senior leaders use to make decisions on foreign policy, going to war, etc., why _shouldn't_ the public (that, don't forget, those leaders represent and are beholden to) be capable of drawing conclusions, forming opinions, and demanding their leaders reflect those opinions in their actions from similar information?</p>
<p>The simple answer, and the one most likely considering Kissinger's (and N-Pod's) past is the intense desire to place those in power above second-guessing, oversight, or consequences for their actions. Neocons want Big Daddy to come and take care of them - it's been their social policy all along.</p>
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		<title>By: Blog @ MoreWhat.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Selective Use of Moral Outrage</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251191</link>
		<dc:creator>Blog @ MoreWhat.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Selective Use of Moral Outrage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 18:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251191</guid>
		<description>[...] to Outside the Beltway, The Virtuous Republic, Mark My Words, Rosemary&#8217;s Thoughts, Right Truth, Shadowscope, The [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to Outside the Beltway, The Virtuous Republic, Mark My Words, Rosemary&#8217;s Thoughts, Right Truth, Shadowscope, The [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cernig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251174</link>
		<dc:creator>Cernig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251174</guid>
		<description>BTW, he&#039;s wrong about the danger too. The IAEA have flat stated that they have all 3,000 centrifuges and their product under seal, surveillance and snap inspections (six this year). They say it is impossible for those centrifuges and product to be used to make bomb-grade material without their foreknowledge. There&#039;s an effective early-warning tripwire in place.

Regards, C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, he's wrong about the danger too. The IAEA have flat stated that they have all 3,000 centrifuges and their product under seal, surveillance and snap inspections (six this year). They say it is impossible for those centrifuges and product to be used to make bomb-grade material without their foreknowledge. There's an effective early-warning tripwire in place.</p>
<p>Regards, C</p>
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		<title>By: Cernig</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251172</link>
		<dc:creator>Cernig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251172</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;My inclination is that the former is the lesser of evils&lt;/em&gt;

Funny that, my inclination is the exact opposite.

Kissinger is the man who was Nixon&#039;s NSA and who had to step down after being Bush&#039;s appointee to head the 9/11 commission due to &quot;conflicts of interest&quot;. He&#039;s a friend of Conrad Black and sat on Hollinger&#039;s board while that board looked the other way. There are serious allegations of war crimes (as detailed by Chris Hitchens in his book) such that Kissinger can&#039;t even leave the country without fear of prosecution. 

This man wants to end oversight of the intelligence community and says they should just shut up and be a tool of the Unitary Executive.

Something that N-Pods &quot;Commentary&quot; is just fine with today.

And that doesn&#039;t worry you?

Regards, C</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>My inclination is that the former is the lesser of evils</em></p>
<p>Funny that, my inclination is the exact opposite.</p>
<p>Kissinger is the man who was Nixon's NSA and who had to step down after being Bush's appointee to head the 9/11 commission due to "conflicts of interest". He's a friend of Conrad Black and sat on Hollinger's board while that board looked the other way. There are serious allegations of war crimes (as detailed by Chris Hitchens in his book) such that Kissinger can't even leave the country without fear of prosecution. </p>
<p>This man wants to end oversight of the intelligence community and says they should just shut up and be a tool of the Unitary Executive.</p>
<p>Something that N-Pods "Commentary" is just fine with today.</p>
<p>And that doesn't worry you?</p>
<p>Regards, C</p>
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		<title>By: Right Voices</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251161</link>
		<dc:creator>Right Voices</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251161</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) accuses Senate Democratic leaders of developing “Stockholm syndrome,” showing sympathy to their Republican captors...&lt;/strong&gt;

I hope you enjoy this as much as I did:
When Democrats took control of Congress in January, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) pledged to jointly push an ambitious agenda to counter 12 years of Repub...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) accuses Senate Democratic leaders of developing “Stockholm syndrome,” showing sympathy to their Republican captors...</strong></p>
<p>I hope you enjoy this as much as I did:<br />
When Democrats took control of Congress in January, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) pledged to jointly push an ambitious agenda to counter 12 years of Repub...</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251156</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251156</guid>
		<description>Someone remind me why Kissinger hasn&#039;t been turned over to the Hague for war crime...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone remind me why Kissinger hasn't been turned over to the Hague for war crime...</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/comment-page-1/#comment-251088</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2007 14:32:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/12/spying_and_policymaking_dont_mix/#comment-251088</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a vain hope to want intelligence-gathering to be de-politicized.  It&#039;s a human activity; it&#039;s inherently political.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's a vain hope to want intelligence-gathering to be de-politicized.  It's a human activity; it's inherently political.</p>
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