if you think the solution is for Egypt to re-assert control over Gaza, please present evidence that Egypt is willing to do so.

Well, let's turn this right-side-out:

1) Is the best possible solution, the no-state solution -- with Egypt and Jordan re-assuming sovereignty over some parts of the territories they lost to Israel?

2) Can it be achieved?

It is manifest that there cannot be a stable "Palestine" -- as currently envisioned by the "quartet" and others. If any peoples have shown themselves incapable of self-government, these guys belong on posters. And, since Israel won't volunarily commit suicide, we need to find some adults to put in charge.

Dave wants some evidence of Egypt's "willingness" to take on these murderers. That's easy. If Egypt is "willing" to continue accepting some $3 BILLION in annual aid, it is self evident that this amounts to considerable suasion. The US of A can simply make continued aid contingent on Egypt assuming sovereignty over Gaza (and keeping the peace!).

Evidence enough for you Dave?

Ceuta border fence, Berm of Western Sahara, United Arab Emirates-Oman barrier, United Nations Buffer Zone in Cyprus, Uzbek-Afghanistan barrier, Uzbek-Tajikistan border minefields, Indo-Burma barrier, Iran-Pakistan barrier, Kazakh-Uzbekistan barrier, Korean Demilitarized Zone, Kuwait-Iraq barrier, Malaysia-Thailand border, Turkmen-Uzbekistan barrier, Line of Control, US –Mexico border, EU Endorses New Border Security Rules, Russian-Estonia border, China-North Korea border, etc.

Let me get this straight: Palestinians want to continue the violence because they "hope" to gain something from it... (maybe "hope" is all they have left?) but Israel has very little to gain from violence... So they engage in it for it's own sake?

Essentially yes, except that I don't believe that Israel wants the violence to continue.

The issue is that Israel currently has enough of what it wants to make it not worth fighting for more, so they prefer peace. The Palestinians do not have enough of what they want to make peace worthwhile to them, so they prefer violence. And so the situation will remain until either what they have, or what they hope to have, changes.

This is not from lack of trying. It is my understanding that the Israelis catch them before the can do any damage. The wall is credited with stopping a large proportion of the suicide bombing attempts.

Kinda like the wall thrown up around the Warsaw ghetto?
"Those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."

But even still, Palestinians are the only ones that want to continue violence because they hope to gain something from it. Israel, on the other hand, has little left to gain (hence the reason this won't be a strategic victory).

Let me get this straight: Palestinians want to continue the violence because they "hope" to gain something from it... (maybe "hope" is all they have left?) but Israel has very little to gain from violence... So they engage in it for it's own sake?

Michael, I know you, you can do better than that.

WRT to rocket fire from Lebanon. An indication of the true impact on Hezbolah of the Israeli incursion into Lebanon might be the speed with which Hezbolah denied it was the group who recently fired rockets into Israel from Lebanon.

That could be explain equally well by suggesting that Hezbollah is unwilling to risk it's newfound position for the sake of Hamas.

This is not from lack of trying. It is my understanding that the Israelis catch them before the can do any damage. The wall is credited with stopping a large proportion of the suicide bombing attempts.

"The parents of Israeli soldiers aren't sending their children to war with the hope that they die. The parents of Palestinian suicide bombers do."

Do not forget the economic incentive in sending a son or daughter to be a suicide bomber. Just because Saddam is no longer paying $25,000 per bomber does not mean someone else has not taken up the task.

WRT to rocket fire from Lebanon. An indication of the true impact on Hezbolah of the Israeli incursion into Lebanon might be the speed with which Hezbolah denied it was the group who recently fired rockets into Israel from Lebanon.

How do you work that out...still making it sound like only Israel love their children no matter which dumb way you put it.

The parents of Israeli soldiers aren't sending their children to war with the hope that they die. The parents of Palestinian suicide bombers do. That is the context of the quote, that those parents would rather their children die in order to prevent an Israeli from living.

Now lately there has been significantly less suicide bombings in Israel, so the quote is less apt. But even still, Palestinians are the only ones that want to continue violence because they hope to gain something from it. Israel, on the other hand, has little left to gain (hence the reason this won't be a strategic victory).

I notice relative silence from the West Bank. Surely that's evidence of strategic significance.

Fatah is not likely to come to Hamas' rescue.

Surely destroying weapons caches, rocket designers, smuggling tunnels and elements of the leadership is of strategic significance as well.

No, that's tactical.

Surely destroying weapons caches, rocket designers, smuggling tunnels and elements of the leadership is of strategic significance as well.

Long term? I don't know about the love part, but does Hamas want to spend all of its energies over the next several years to regain its homemade rocket program?

Posted by charles austin

My passion for this subject overides any punctaction marks that seem devastating to you.

caj, your passion is evident from your four exclamation marks. Devastating punctuation, just devastating.

To the extent that they have been replaced with rocket attacks, this is a massive strategic improvement from Israel's perspective. Suicide bombings were far more effective.

The analysis that says there is no possibility of a strategic or tactical victory is in every substantial way the same analysis as was used to describe events during Defensive Shield. It was massively incorrect at that time.

Thus, to "show my work" similar operations have yielded substantial strategic gains in the past. They have forced the terrorists to resort to less effective means. The mere fact that they have also been unsuccessful (the more recent attack on Lebanon)shows merely that it only sometimes effective, instead of invariably. Whether this operation will be successful depends on the details, on which I don't have a strong opinion.

It is however difficult to square the "doomed to failure" view that many seem to have with actual observed events of the last few years.

Finally, based on the volume of rocket fire from Lebanon at Israel over the past two years, it is not entirely convincing to say that Israel did not substantially reduce the threat from that direction as well.

Posted by John Burgess

How do you work that out...still making it sound like only Israel love their children no matter which dumb way you put it.
How about reversing it to sound like Israel need’s to love their children more than death and more than they hate Palestine.
Doesn't sound so nice put in those terms though does it because it puts Israel in a bad light?

'... until Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israel'

or

'... until Palestinians love their children more than they love death'

Both of those make sense.

We're still waiting.

Posted by charles austin

He must have been some kind of jerk as well, what an absolutely ridiculous statement to make as if Israel have the only authority on parental love!!
If you believe that then I feel sorry for you, no one nation and that includes Israel love their children anymore than any other nation....such a stupid, stupid statement!!!!