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	<title>Comments on: Taking Separation of Powers Seriously</title>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-523118</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Posted by PD Shaw :

&quot;I think Obama has done the right thing. To the extent that Presidents use the bully pulpit to encourage legislation and form their own political alliances to do so (like Blue Dogs), reaching out a hand to a potential ally makes sense.&quot;

&quot;And it&#039;s entirely appropriate since Obama is a Senator -- it&#039;s not a separation of powers argument any more than if Clinton made similar recommendation with one eye towards her own political future. All Senators get one vote, but not all Senators are equal.&quot;

PD, do you realize that these two paragraphs are contradictory?  In the first, Obama is acting as president-elect, and making arrangements for his term as president.  In the second, he&#039;s just a senator.  

In my personal opinion, it&#039;s important for Reid to slap down Lieberman, for party discipline.  When somebody has repeated acted against you, and is no longer untouchable (as Lieberman was in the last Congress), if you *give* him valuable things like the chairmanship of a powerful committe, you&#039;re making yourself look weak.  A bunch of Democratic senators would have excellent reason to ask why they weren&#039;t being rewarded for being loyal.  They&#039;d also have reason to figure that disloyalty would pay better.  This was pointed out by an analyst writing in the early 1990&#039;s about the Clinton administration&#039;s relationship to Congress, that he lacked any power to punish opposition in the Democratic Congress, and had to bribe people.  Once the neutrals received favors, many loyal people reevaluated their loyalty.

In addition, Reid now has a second reason to slap Lieberman hard - the president has meddled (Obama is acting as president elect here, not just as a senator).  The Democrats in Congress need to support President Obama, but not as lackeys.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Posted by PD Shaw :</p>
<p>"I think Obama has done the right thing. To the extent that Presidents use the bully pulpit to encourage legislation and form their own political alliances to do so (like Blue Dogs), reaching out a hand to a potential ally makes sense."</p>
<p>"And it's entirely appropriate since Obama is a Senator -- it's not a separation of powers argument any more than if Clinton made similar recommendation with one eye towards her own political future. All Senators get one vote, but not all Senators are equal."</p>
<p>PD, do you realize that these two paragraphs are contradictory?  In the first, Obama is acting as president-elect, and making arrangements for his term as president.  In the second, he's just a senator.  </p>
<p>In my personal opinion, it's important for Reid to slap down Lieberman, for party discipline.  When somebody has repeated acted against you, and is no longer untouchable (as Lieberman was in the last Congress), if you *give* him valuable things like the chairmanship of a powerful committe, you're making yourself look weak.  A bunch of Democratic senators would have excellent reason to ask why they weren't being rewarded for being loyal.  They'd also have reason to figure that disloyalty would pay better.  This was pointed out by an analyst writing in the early 1990's about the Clinton administration's relationship to Congress, that he lacked any power to punish opposition in the Democratic Congress, and had to bribe people.  Once the neutrals received favors, many loyal people reevaluated their loyalty.</p>
<p>In addition, Reid now has a second reason to slap Lieberman hard - the president has meddled (Obama is acting as president elect here, not just as a senator).  The Democrats in Congress need to support President Obama, but not as lackeys.</p>
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		<title>By: mannning</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522806</link>
		<dc:creator>mannning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 20:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522806</guid>
		<description>Actually, 200,000 rules was a gross understatement, since I simply guessed that each regulatory organization would run with an average of 200 rules each. The IRS alone exceeds this amount without breathing hard. Some 66,000 pages of rules and regs exist in the IRS code. 

We face possibly millions of rules...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, 200,000 rules was a gross understatement, since I simply guessed that each regulatory organization would run with an average of 200 rules each. The IRS alone exceeds this amount without breathing hard. Some 66,000 pages of rules and regs exist in the IRS code. </p>
<p>We face possibly millions of rules...</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522718</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522718</guid>
		<description>I see now I wasn&#039;t clear in my meaning, in my first comment. I should say I think it clear that Greenwald&#039;s sudden concern for what is and is not constitutional seems to me very selective and focused to issues that will tilt the country left. 

Keep this as a marker... when Obama, and the Democrats in Congress start overstepping their constitutional limit in the pursuit of leftism/socialism, will Greenwald be as indignant? We all know better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see now I wasn't clear in my meaning, in my first comment. I should say I think it clear that Greenwald's sudden concern for what is and is not constitutional seems to me very selective and focused to issues that will tilt the country left. </p>
<p>Keep this as a marker... when Obama, and the Democrats in Congress start overstepping their constitutional limit in the pursuit of leftism/socialism, will Greenwald be as indignant? We all know better.</p>
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		<title>By: DL</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522717</link>
		<dc:creator>DL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522717</guid>
		<description>When Lincoln&#039;s successor held a military trial for Lincoln&#039;s accused assassins, he controlled the court and made them back down on Habeus corpus - neutering one branch of government - when the South was forced to ratify the 14th amendment and it then passed the SC test, another fell. This has been done for years - The most offensive and outright encroachment into another branch&#039;s powers was Roe v. Wade - lawmaking from the bench - emminations from pennumbras indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Lincoln's successor held a military trial for Lincoln's accused assassins, he controlled the court and made them back down on Habeus corpus - neutering one branch of government - when the South was forced to ratify the 14th amendment and it then passed the SC test, another fell. This has been done for years - The most offensive and outright encroachment into another branch's powers was Roe v. Wade - lawmaking from the bench - emminations from pennumbras indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: tom p</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522652</link>
		<dc:creator>tom p</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522652</guid>
		<description>In the &quot;Punishing Lieberman&quot; thread I argued that Obama was behind the &quot;Jettison Joe&quot; movement, because he could not (politically) allow a turncoat (I think &quot;stab in the back&quot; were my words) Senator to control a powerful oversight committee. And I would still argue that.

But maybe PD Shaw has something here... Maybe it really is just a &quot;kabuki dance&quot; we are watching. I do not for a second think Harry Reid does anything (at this pt in time) without BOs approval. As Dave S said: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;A sitting president has been the de facto head of his party for as long as I can remember.&lt;/blockquote&gt; This is especially true right after an election that saw an expansion of the Dem majorities.

We will never know... kabuki dance? Reality? Who knows? He is &lt;em&gt;good&lt;/em&gt;...

All I know is, Joe Lieberman better watch his ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the "Punishing Lieberman" thread I argued that Obama was behind the "Jettison Joe" movement, because he could not (politically) allow a turncoat (I think "stab in the back" were my words) Senator to control a powerful oversight committee. And I would still argue that.</p>
<p>But maybe PD Shaw has something here... Maybe it really is just a "kabuki dance" we are watching. I do not for a second think Harry Reid does anything (at this pt in time) without BOs approval. As Dave S said: </p>
<blockquote><p>A sitting president has been the de facto head of his party for as long as I can remember.</p></blockquote>
<p> This is especially true right after an election that saw an expansion of the Dem majorities.</p>
<p>We will never know... kabuki dance? Reality? Who knows? He is <em>good</em>...</p>
<p>All I know is, Joe Lieberman better watch his ass.</p>
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		<title>By: G.A.Phillips</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522648</link>
		<dc:creator>G.A.Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 02:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522648</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;200,000 Rules!&lt;/blockquote&gt; and to think in the beginning we started with just one,  damned serpent!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>200,000 Rules!</p></blockquote>
<p> and to think in the beginning we started with just one,  damned serpent!</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522574</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522574</guid>
		<description>Lieberman currently chairs the committee charged with investigating the Executive branch, and he spent the past year actively campaigning against the future head of that branch, even implied that he may be a secret Muslim at one point.  I can&#039;t understand why Obama would want him to keep that position.  Is this &quot;maverick&quot;, &quot;bipartisan&quot; or just &quot;crazy&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lieberman currently chairs the committee charged with investigating the Executive branch, and he spent the past year actively campaigning against the future head of that branch, even implied that he may be a secret Muslim at one point.  I can't understand why Obama would want him to keep that position.  Is this "maverick", "bipartisan" or just "crazy"?</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522558</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522558</guid>
		<description>Glenn Greenwald is indignant -- film at 11!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glenn Greenwald is indignant -- film at 11!</p>
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		<title>By: PD Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522552</link>
		<dc:creator>PD Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522552</guid>
		<description>Of course, we could be in for a bit of kabuki theater in which Obama gets to both support Lieberman while telling Reid that it&#039;s no skin off his nose if Lieberman is neutered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, we could be in for a bit of kabuki theater in which Obama gets to both support Lieberman while telling Reid that it's no skin off his nose if Lieberman is neutered.</p>
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		<title>By: C-Red</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522551</link>
		<dc:creator>C-Red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522551</guid>
		<description>I may have missed something, but didn&#039;t the Obama staff/transition team announce something to the effect that while Obama would prefer to see Lieberman stay in the Dem. caucus that they have no opinion on whether or not he should keep his chair and that was purely a Congressional decision, the executive branch shouldn&#039;t have any say in it?

I&#039;m pretty certain I read that in a few places this morning - including over at Political Animal with Steve Bennen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may have missed something, but didn't the Obama staff/transition team announce something to the effect that while Obama would prefer to see Lieberman stay in the Dem. caucus that they have no opinion on whether or not he should keep his chair and that was purely a Congressional decision, the executive branch shouldn't have any say in it?</p>
<p>I'm pretty certain I read that in a few places this morning - including over at Political Animal with Steve Bennen.</p>
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		<title>By: PD Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522550</link>
		<dc:creator>PD Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522550</guid>
		<description>If anyone want to take Greenwald&#039;s argument to its natural conclusion, then Obama should resign from the Senate.  Every thing Obama does as Senator, and every vote he casts poses Separation of Powers issues.  James Garfield resigned his Senate seat upon being elected President (though he had essentially just been elected to the Senate and he would not become a Senator until after he was inaugurated President).

Otherwise, Obama should have the same input as any other Senator.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone want to take Greenwald's argument to its natural conclusion, then Obama should resign from the Senate.  Every thing Obama does as Senator, and every vote he casts poses Separation of Powers issues.  James Garfield resigned his Senate seat upon being elected President (though he had essentially just been elected to the Senate and he would not become a Senator until after he was inaugurated President).</p>
<p>Otherwise, Obama should have the same input as any other Senator.</p>
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		<title>By: mannning</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522548</link>
		<dc:creator>mannning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522548</guid>
		<description>and, 200,000 Rules!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and, 200,000 Rules!</p>
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		<title>By: mannning</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522547</link>
		<dc:creator>mannning</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522547</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;All but a handful of these things are run by federal agencies and bureaus through the quasi-legislative processes of rule making and regulation rather than by Acts of Congress. The president and his designated representatives run these bureaucracies on a day-to-day basis with Congress acting only in reactive mode — if at all — through the oversight process.  In other words, we’ve stood the Constitution on its head.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes! According to the LSU registry of government organizations, there are now 1,177 agencies, committees, boards, bureaus and commissions in the US government, not counting the Congressional Committees, of course. We are ruled by 10,000 burocrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>All but a handful of these things are run by federal agencies and bureaus through the quasi-legislative processes of rule making and regulation rather than by Acts of Congress. The president and his designated representatives run these bureaucracies on a day-to-day basis with Congress acting only in reactive mode — if at all — through the oversight process.  In other words, we&rsquo;ve stood the Constitution on its head.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes! According to the LSU registry of government organizations, there are now 1,177 agencies, committees, boards, bureaus and commissions in the US government, not counting the Congressional Committees, of course. We are ruled by 10,000 burocrats.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522544</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522544</guid>
		<description>See I think ousting Lieberman is a mistake.  The reality is outside of a very specific sphere of legislation, Lieberman will likely be a reliable vote-probably more reliable than some of the blue dogs.  

I don&#039;t think Obama is wrong in saying what he wants-I just don&#039;t think he should have any say in what happens.  

Personally, while Lieberman may be the source of much hatred from the left, it is stupid for the left to ostracize or punish him, when he really is with them on most issues.  Not to mention it looks kind of petty-maybe to some it isn&#039;t, but it looks petty to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See I think ousting Lieberman is a mistake.  The reality is outside of a very specific sphere of legislation, Lieberman will likely be a reliable vote-probably more reliable than some of the blue dogs.  </p>
<p>I don't think Obama is wrong in saying what he wants-I just don't think he should have any say in what happens.  </p>
<p>Personally, while Lieberman may be the source of much hatred from the left, it is stupid for the left to ostracize or punish him, when he really is with them on most issues.  Not to mention it looks kind of petty-maybe to some it isn't, but it looks petty to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/taking_separation_of_powers_seriously/comment-page-1/#comment-522542</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 21:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=27350#comment-522542</guid>
		<description>Well, as with all Greenwald&#039;s writings, one must consider what his motivations are. 

In this case, it&#039;s not hard to fathom; He&#039;s concerned that Lieberman gets to keep his seat even though in Greenwald&#039;s fevered mind, he&#039;s not liberal enough, particularly as regards the war on terror and the defense of Israel and thereby congress isn&#039;t liberal enough, either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, as with all Greenwald's writings, one must consider what his motivations are. </p>
<p>In this case, it's not hard to fathom; He's concerned that Lieberman gets to keep his seat even though in Greenwald's fevered mind, he's not liberal enough, particularly as regards the war on terror and the defense of Israel and thereby congress isn't liberal enough, either.</p>
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