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	<title>Comments on: Teamsters, Service Employees Quit AFL-CIO</title>
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		<title>By: Dave Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52790</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52790</guid>
		<description>Three points:

1) Corporations have limited liability.  This is government enforced limits on how much the owners have to compensate people for damages of various kinds -- including paying off debts.

2) Corporations are &quot;collectivism&quot; if anything is.  Add to that the various forms of government protection they receive, then realize that it is a collectivism for the rich directed against the individual.

3) When people complain about how much people in unions are paid, without realizing this means they should join a union, I guess it&#039;s a form of Darwinism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Three points:</p>
<p>1) Corporations have limited liability.  This is government enforced limits on how much the owners have to compensate people for damages of various kinds -- including paying off debts.</p>
<p>2) Corporations are "collectivism" if anything is.  Add to that the various forms of government protection they receive, then realize that it is a collectivism for the rich directed against the individual.</p>
<p>3) When people complain about how much people in unions are paid, without realizing this means they should join a union, I guess it's a form of Darwinism.</p>
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		<title>By: snortz</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52768</link>
		<dc:creator>snortz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52768</guid>
		<description>The ol&#039; myth of the Lone Frontiersman rears its enourmous lying self.  That&#039;s the founding myth of the Repuke Party, where we are all frontiersmen, shooting our own injuns, brewin&#039; our own kern licker, etc etc.

That ain&#039;t true, and hasn&#039;t been ever.  The Myth of the Lone Frontiersman is used for one and one thing only - getting us separated from mutual interest groups, so that the big corporations can pick us clean.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ol' myth of the Lone Frontiersman rears its enourmous lying self.  That's the founding myth of the Repuke Party, where we are all frontiersmen, shooting our own injuns, brewin' our own kern licker, etc etc.</p>
<p>That ain't true, and hasn't been ever.  The Myth of the Lone Frontiersman is used for one and one thing only - getting us separated from mutual interest groups, so that the big corporations can pick us clean.</p>
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		<title>By: The Tonic</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52765</link>
		<dc:creator>The Tonic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52765</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d certainly agree that unions have done a poor job negotiating (or over-negotiating), often to their own detriment.  The fact that they have public relations problems, being seen as enabling laziness or poor workmanship, certainly hasn&#039;t helped.  Does that mean they should really be done away with altogether?  As you suggest, do they insult workers, implying that they cannot be judged by their own merits?

As Anderson mentions, there are still examples that this isn&#039;t the case - WalMart in particular.  The simple fact is, there are more people than jobs.  An employer can post a job opening and receive 400 resumes in a matter of hours.  When is the last time you, as a worker, had to choose between 400 job offers?  If you had 400 job offers, perhaps employers would have an incentive to court you with the most attractive compensation package, but most people are lucky to get one job offer, let alone hundreds.  Applying the rules of the marketplace to this situation, the laws of supply and demand, it becomes obvious that employers, left to their own devices, can set hours as high and wages as low as they want, and still find willing workers.  This may involve leaving the country (where, let&#039;s face it, we&#039;re a lot more spoiled than people in third world countries) but the bottom line is, no matter how talented you are, your boss can always find someone to do your job for less than you will.

Negotiating power is just not balanced.  For proof of this, consider what happens in a strike situation.  How long can the average worker trying to support a family on minimum wage stand on the picket line?  And how long can a factory remain closed before suffering terminal financial loss?

A union&#039;s only job should be to tip these scales to something approaching balance, in order to prevent employees from being exploited.  A union should not be powerful enough to set the terms of contract, or dictate the company&#039;s direction.  But they should be powerful enough to take a stand and say, &quot;This wage is TOO low.  These hours are TOO long.&quot;  Left to the employment marketplace, there is no hitting bottom.

And while unions may be negotiating themselves into oblivion, consider what would happen without them, if there were no minimum wage, and if companies could hire the person willing to work for the least, be it in New Jersey or Bangladesh, and drive wages continually down.  Consider what this does to your marketplace.  Consider what happens when the people who make products can&#039;t afford them, and the people who don&#039;t make them have no jobs at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd certainly agree that unions have done a poor job negotiating (or over-negotiating), often to their own detriment.  The fact that they have public relations problems, being seen as enabling laziness or poor workmanship, certainly hasn't helped.  Does that mean they should really be done away with altogether?  As you suggest, do they insult workers, implying that they cannot be judged by their own merits?</p>
<p>As Anderson mentions, there are still examples that this isn't the case - WalMart in particular.  The simple fact is, there are more people than jobs.  An employer can post a job opening and receive 400 resumes in a matter of hours.  When is the last time you, as a worker, had to choose between 400 job offers?  If you had 400 job offers, perhaps employers would have an incentive to court you with the most attractive compensation package, but most people are lucky to get one job offer, let alone hundreds.  Applying the rules of the marketplace to this situation, the laws of supply and demand, it becomes obvious that employers, left to their own devices, can set hours as high and wages as low as they want, and still find willing workers.  This may involve leaving the country (where, let's face it, we're a lot more spoiled than people in third world countries) but the bottom line is, no matter how talented you are, your boss can always find someone to do your job for less than you will.</p>
<p>Negotiating power is just not balanced.  For proof of this, consider what happens in a strike situation.  How long can the average worker trying to support a family on minimum wage stand on the picket line?  And how long can a factory remain closed before suffering terminal financial loss?</p>
<p>A union's only job should be to tip these scales to something approaching balance, in order to prevent employees from being exploited.  A union should not be powerful enough to set the terms of contract, or dictate the company's direction.  But they should be powerful enough to take a stand and say, "This wage is TOO low.  These hours are TOO long."  Left to the employment marketplace, there is no hitting bottom.</p>
<p>And while unions may be negotiating themselves into oblivion, consider what would happen without them, if there were no minimum wage, and if companies could hire the person willing to work for the least, be it in New Jersey or Bangladesh, and drive wages continually down.  Consider what this does to your marketplace.  Consider what happens when the people who make products can't afford them, and the people who don't make them have no jobs at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52749</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:30:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52749</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s an analogy with Arnold&#039;s recent proposals to &#039;reform&#039; pensions, allowing individuals should own their own shares. Grover Norquist opined that it was time to tear down the power of CalPERS, etc. What it is, of course, is the dilution of power. It&#039;s all about making the hierarchy more rigid by cementing the systemic advantages already accrued. The consolation prize is liberty. Stand proud; stand alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's an analogy with Arnold's recent proposals to 'reform' pensions, allowing individuals should own their own shares. Grover Norquist opined that it was time to tear down the power of CalPERS, etc. What it is, of course, is the dilution of power. It's all about making the hierarchy more rigid by cementing the systemic advantages already accrued. The consolation prize is liberty. Stand proud; stand alone.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52739</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 23:37:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52739</guid>
		<description>I couldn&#039;t disagree more, James.  Any serious account of the decline of labor would have to give U.S. labor law pride of place. In addition to the structural factors that you cite, labor impasses are caused by a playing field tilted against any sort of organization, and it&#039;s odd to say that those impasses prove that labor unions themselves are a bad idea.  

If the last labor union were disbanded, do you honestly think that working conditions (on any front) would improve?  I doubt it.  The structural forces that you mention would still be at play, but there would be fewer counterweights to them.  Strikes me as a terrible prospect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn't disagree more, James.  Any serious account of the decline of labor would have to give U.S. labor law pride of place. In addition to the structural factors that you cite, labor impasses are caused by a playing field tilted against any sort of organization, and it's odd to say that those impasses prove that labor unions themselves are a bad idea.  </p>
<p>If the last labor union were disbanded, do you honestly think that working conditions (on any front) would improve?  I doubt it.  The structural forces that you mention would still be at play, but there would be fewer counterweights to them.  Strikes me as a terrible prospect.</p>
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		<title>By: BillB</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52728</link>
		<dc:creator>BillB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 21:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52728</guid>
		<description>Excuse me, but why is an end to collective labor power a legitimate argument, but an end to corporate charters &quot;reductio ad absurdum.&quot; In the absense of government power or regulation, you may or may not get individual freedom, but you always get more corporate power. Adam Smith didn&#039;t like them and neither did the founders. Why do you take their legitimacy for granted and yet challenge the legitimacy of collective bargaining for the working classes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me, but why is an end to collective labor power a legitimate argument, but an end to corporate charters "reductio ad absurdum." In the absense of government power or regulation, you may or may not get individual freedom, but you always get more corporate power. Adam Smith didn't like them and neither did the founders. Why do you take their legitimacy for granted and yet challenge the legitimacy of collective bargaining for the working classes?</p>
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		<title>By: McGehee</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52717</link>
		<dc:creator>McGehee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52717</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s one thing, Rick, to argue a &lt;i&gt;reductio ad absurdum.&lt;/i&gt; It&#039;s entirely another matter to be one.

But whatever floats your boat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's one thing, Rick, to argue a <i>reductio ad absurdum.</i> It's entirely another matter to be one.</p>
<p>But whatever floats your boat.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick DeMent</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52704</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick DeMent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52704</guid>
		<description>Really, then let&#039;s end all corporate charters, after all the corporation is a collectivist, statist institution that robs capitalists of their right to raise money as individuals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really, then let's end all corporate charters, after all the corporation is a collectivist, statist institution that robs capitalists of their right to raise money as individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52695</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:21:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52695</guid>
		<description>Apparently as a Dem, I&#039;m supposed to be some sort of union-lover.  Whatever.

It&#039;s evident that the unions have been doing a poor job of defending workers, and that they haven&#039;t adapted to the &quot;retail economy.&quot;

But the very existence of Wal-Mart is excellent evidence that there&#039;s room for effective unions in this country.  Just like the existence of the Republican Party of today shows that there&#039;s room for an effective opposition party.

Unfortunately, no signs of either yet, but I&#039;m still lookin&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently as a Dem, I'm supposed to be some sort of union-lover.  Whatever.</p>
<p>It's evident that the unions have been doing a poor job of defending workers, and that they haven't adapted to the "retail economy."</p>
<p>But the very existence of Wal-Mart is excellent evidence that there's room for effective unions in this country.  Just like the existence of the Republican Party of today shows that there's room for an effective opposition party.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, no signs of either yet, but I'm still lookin'.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Loser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52676</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Loser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52676</guid>
		<description>To paraphrase Mark Twain:  The annoucement of big labor&#039;s death is premature.  As long as there are greedy people out there (ala the Enrons and Worldcoms) there will need to be a counterweight in the form of unified collective representation.  There is strength in numbers. I&#039;m a capitalist, but I realize there are immoral SOBs out there to screw people if they can get away with it.  As long as people act according to their base instincts, unions won&#039;t go away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To paraphrase Mark Twain:  The annoucement of big labor's death is premature.  As long as there are greedy people out there (ala the Enrons and Worldcoms) there will need to be a counterweight in the form of unified collective representation.  There is strength in numbers. I'm a capitalist, but I realize there are immoral SOBs out there to screw people if they can get away with it.  As long as people act according to their base instincts, unions won't go away.</p>
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		<title>By: The Loudest Cricket</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52668</link>
		<dc:creator>The Loudest Cricket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52668</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Useless Unions&lt;/strong&gt;

Unions have outlived their usefulness. Just ask professional hockey players how the union has helped them. Unions are just another layer of bureaucracy that hinders economic growth. Let the worker keep more of his money and let him decide how...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Useless Unions</strong></p>
<p>Unions have outlived their usefulness. Just ask professional hockey players how the union has helped them. Unions are just another layer of bureaucracy that hinders economic growth. Let the worker keep more of his money and let him decide how...</p>
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		<title>By: M. Murcek</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52667</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Murcek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52667</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s good clean fun listening to collectivists and union-lovers screech over this post.

Sorry, guys - THE END IS HERE!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's good clean fun listening to collectivists and union-lovers screech over this post.</p>
<p>Sorry, guys - THE END IS HERE!</p>
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		<title>By: jpe</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52665</link>
		<dc:creator>jpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52665</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;. Collectivization was always an insulting concept--a worker isn&#039;t really a man who can stand on his own merits&lt;/i&gt;

You&#039;re kidding, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>. Collectivization was always an insulting concept--a worker isn't really a man who can stand on his own merits</i></p>
<p>You're kidding, right?</p>
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		<title>By: The Glittering Eye</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52664</link>
		<dc:creator>The Glittering Eye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52664</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Catching my eye:  morning A through Z&lt;/strong&gt;

So, is everybody on vacaction of what? Here&#039;s what&#039;s caught my eye this morning: How&#039;s the Transportation Security Administration doing? Basically, lousy both from the standpoint of compliance with the law and in making us more secure. Bruce Schneie...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Catching my eye:  morning A through Z</strong></p>
<p>So, is everybody on vacaction of what? Here's what's caught my eye this morning: How's the Transportation Security Administration doing? Basically, lousy both from the standpoint of compliance with the law and in making us more secure. Bruce Schneie...</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/teamsters_seiu_decide_to_bolt_afl-cio_-_yahoo_news/comment-page-1/#comment-52661</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/11423#comment-52661</guid>
		<description>I assume that OTB will next predict the end of the corporation, which humiliates capitalists by implying they can&#039;t stand on their own?

Gracious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume that OTB will next predict the end of the corporation, which humiliates capitalists by implying they can't stand on their own?</p>
<p>Gracious.</p>
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