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	<title>Comments on: Tennessee Cigarette Police State</title>
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		<title>By: Billy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-172904</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 02:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-172904</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I agree that the final clause doesn&#039;t speak to proportionality.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Insomuch as it does not explicitly use the word &quot;proportionate,&quot; I can&#039;t completely disagree, and a (read: &quot;a single, among many&quot;) literal interpretation of the clause brings away the impression that it is proscribing specifically cruel and unusual methods of punishment.  That it does at least this much is not seriously debated.

However, it&#039;s just as easy to read that &quot;cruel and unusual&quot; means &lt;i&gt;exactly&lt;/i&gt; that punishment should be proportionate to the crime, and the Supreme Court has, on multiple occasions, come to &lt;a href=&quot;http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=Coker%20v.%20Georgia&amp;url=/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0433_0584_ZO.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;that precise conclusion&lt;/A&gt;  (for currently the only crimes for which capital punishment is constitutionally permissible because of that exact clause are treason, which is defined by the document itself, and crimes involving the taking of another human life).  

Scalia&#039;s facile dismissal of this interpretation belies how far outside of the mainstream of legal scholarship he truly is on some topics (the other justices at least had the decency to pretend that the punishment in &lt;i&gt;Ewing&lt;/i&gt; was not disporportionate, a conclusion Scalia rightly questions), and it would be a difficult case indeed to make among the majority of judges and scholars that there is no requirement for proportionality inherent in the eight amendment.  Indeed, as you point out yourself, the very existence of a prohibition on &quot;excessive fines&quot; could be read to include prison sentences, and the case for such a lexical interpretation is not hard to make.  Three seconds of browsing revealed that one definition of &quot;fine&quot; includes: &quot;to reduce the size or proportions of.&quot;  If we apply that to &quot;time spent free from imprisonment&quot; as the object (i.e., to &quot;reduce the [convicted person&#039;s] time spent free from imprisonment,&quot;) voila: the eight amendment prohibits disproportionate sentencing.  Surely a lexical stretch of equal magnitude, at minimum, is required to definitively make the case that the eighth amendment is &lt;i&gt;silent&lt;/i&gt; on the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I agree that the final clause doesn't speak to proportionality.</p></blockquote>
<p>Insomuch as it does not explicitly use the word "proportionate," I can't completely disagree, and a (read: "a single, among many") literal interpretation of the clause brings away the impression that it is proscribing specifically cruel and unusual methods of punishment.  That it does at least this much is not seriously debated.</p>
<p>However, it's just as easy to read that "cruel and unusual" means <i>exactly</i> that punishment should be proportionate to the crime, and the Supreme Court has, on multiple occasions, come to <a href="http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/search/display.html?terms=Coker%20v.%20Georgia&amp;url=/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0433_0584_ZO.html" rel="nofollow">that precise conclusion</a>  (for currently the only crimes for which capital punishment is constitutionally permissible because of that exact clause are treason, which is defined by the document itself, and crimes involving the taking of another human life).  </p>
<p>Scalia's facile dismissal of this interpretation belies how far outside of the mainstream of legal scholarship he truly is on some topics (the other justices at least had the decency to pretend that the punishment in <i>Ewing</i> was not disporportionate, a conclusion Scalia rightly questions), and it would be a difficult case indeed to make among the majority of judges and scholars that there is no requirement for proportionality inherent in the eight amendment.  Indeed, as you point out yourself, the very existence of a prohibition on "excessive fines" could be read to include prison sentences, and the case for such a lexical interpretation is not hard to make.  Three seconds of browsing revealed that one definition of "fine" includes: "to reduce the size or proportions of."  If we apply that to "time spent free from imprisonment" as the object (i.e., to "reduce the [convicted person's] time spent free from imprisonment,") voila: the eight amendment prohibits disproportionate sentencing.  Surely a lexical stretch of equal magnitude, at minimum, is required to definitively make the case that the eighth amendment is <i>silent</i> on the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-171796</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-171796</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Well, not if you listen to Justice Scalia, for whom there is no such thing as an unconstitutionally disporportionate punishment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What&#039;s odd is that his concurrence ignores the rest of the very concise 8th Amendment: &quot;Excessive bail shall not be required, &lt;strong&gt;nor excessive fines imposed&lt;/strong&gt;, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.&quot;

I agree that the final clause doesn&#039;t speak to proportionality.  I&#039;m not sure how else to read the second one, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Well, not if you listen to Justice Scalia, for whom there is no such thing as an unconstitutionally disporportionate punishment.</p></blockquote>
<p>What's odd is that his concurrence ignores the rest of the very concise 8th Amendment: "Excessive bail shall not be required, <strong>nor excessive fines imposed</strong>, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."</p>
<p>I agree that the final clause doesn't speak to proportionality.  I'm not sure how else to read the second one, however.</p>
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		<title>By: The Florida Masochist</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-171459</link>
		<dc:creator>The Florida Masochist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 12:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-171459</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The Knuckleheads of the Day award...&lt;/strong&gt;

Today&#039;s winners are the Tennessee Department of Revenue and its Commissioner Reagan Farr....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Knuckleheads of the Day award...</strong></p>
<p>Today's winners are the Tennessee Department of Revenue and its Commissioner Reagan Farr....</p>
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		<title>By: Billy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-171062</link>
		<dc:creator>Billy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 03:17:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-171062</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Then again, there is a question of proportionality. One can support the death penalty for premeditated murder but not for failure to file one’s income taxes.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, not if you listen to Justice Scalia, for whom there is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/01-6978.ZC.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;no such thing&lt;/a&gt; as an unconstitutionally disporportionate punishment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Then again, there is a question of proportionality. One can support the death penalty for premeditated murder but not for failure to file one&rsquo;s income taxes.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, not if you listen to Justice Scalia, for whom there is <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/01-6978.ZC.html" rel="nofollow">no such thing</a> as an unconstitutionally disporportionate punishment.</p>
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		<title>By: Public Secrets: from the files of the Irishspy</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170979</link>
		<dc:creator>Public Secrets: from the files of the Irishspy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:22:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170979</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Welcome to Tennessee. Y&#039;all are being watched....&lt;/strong&gt;

Cigarette surveillance program begins today Starting today, state Department of Revenue agents will begin stopping Tennessee motorists spotted buying large quantities of cigarettes in border states, then charging them with a crime and, in some cases, s...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Welcome to Tennessee. Y'all are being watched....</strong></p>
<p>Cigarette surveillance program begins today Starting today, state Department of Revenue agents will begin stopping Tennessee motorists spotted buying large quantities of cigarettes in border states, then charging them with a crime and, in some cases, s...</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Koivisto</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170860</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Koivisto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170860</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s just a matter of time before the police state arrives! I live in Illinois, close to Wisconsin. Years ago the drinking age was 18 in Wisconsin and 21 in Illinois, and Surprise!, they would be at the Illinois border waiting for the Illinois cars coming back! Oh, it was just for safety, right? They wrote alot of tickets and made lots of money, and isn&#039;t this what it&#039;s all about anyway? As the dollar devalues and all the good paying jobs move away, the states and the govt. will lose revenue, something they forgot about. Now all the states want to build casinos because they think they&#039;ll make lots of money, not realizing that money comes from the worker, not them. Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life down here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's just a matter of time before the police state arrives! I live in Illinois, close to Wisconsin. Years ago the drinking age was 18 in Wisconsin and 21 in Illinois, and Surprise!, they would be at the Illinois border waiting for the Illinois cars coming back! Oh, it was just for safety, right? They wrote alot of tickets and made lots of money, and isn't this what it's all about anyway? As the dollar devalues and all the good paying jobs move away, the states and the govt. will lose revenue, something they forgot about. Now all the states want to build casinos because they think they'll make lots of money, not realizing that money comes from the worker, not them. Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life down here.</p>
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		<title>By: John Burgess</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170771</link>
		<dc:creator>John Burgess</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170771</guid>
		<description>Before DC became a tax hog, this was common practice for Virginia police, too. Once upon a time, DC had extremely low taxes on both booze and cigarettes. As a result, it was normal for VA residents to stop for both on their ways home on Friday afternoon. 

Arlington and Fairfax Co. police would sometimes have an unmarked car in the parking lots of Georgetown liquor stores. Sometimes they&#039;d rely on informants who received a percentage of the &lt;strike&gt;loot&lt;/strike&gt; bounty. 

The issue was resolved when DC made all consumables more expensive to buy in the city than elsewhere. Of course, that then led to DC residents making quick stops into VA to make &lt;i&gt;their&lt;/i&gt; purchases. Saving $0.25/gal on gas or $5.00 for a carton of cigarettes is sometimes worth a detour. No good interstate booze deals, though, only better selections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before DC became a tax hog, this was common practice for Virginia police, too. Once upon a time, DC had extremely low taxes on both booze and cigarettes. As a result, it was normal for VA residents to stop for both on their ways home on Friday afternoon. </p>
<p>Arlington and Fairfax Co. police would sometimes have an unmarked car in the parking lots of Georgetown liquor stores. Sometimes they'd rely on informants who received a percentage of the <strike>loot</strike> bounty. </p>
<p>The issue was resolved when DC made all consumables more expensive to buy in the city than elsewhere. Of course, that then led to DC residents making quick stops into VA to make <i>their</i> purchases. Saving $0.25/gal on gas or $5.00 for a carton of cigarettes is sometimes worth a detour. No good interstate booze deals, though, only better selections.</p>
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		<title>By: Diane C. Russell</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170739</link>
		<dc:creator>Diane C. Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170739</guid>
		<description>Maryland has been doing this off and on for decades;  also for booze.

And there was a time, back in the days dairy farmers controlled Minnesota politics, when Minnesota did this to stop the smuggling of colored margarine from adjoining states.  Margarine was only legal if uncolored and obviously different from butter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maryland has been doing this off and on for decades;  also for booze.</p>
<p>And there was a time, back in the days dairy farmers controlled Minnesota politics, when Minnesota did this to stop the smuggling of colored margarine from adjoining states.  Margarine was only legal if uncolored and obviously different from butter.</p>
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		<title>By: yetanotherjohn</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170691</link>
		<dc:creator>yetanotherjohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170691</guid>
		<description>There are two issues. One is proportionality and the other is the observation. Locally, we have different firework laws for different governmental entities (e.g. city vs county or one countyvs another). They have put people to monitor the firework stand in another governmental area (e.g. in the cigarrette case across state lines), transmitted the license plates and then had cops stationed at the major roads entering the city to pull over anyone whose tag is on the list. They pull them over on suspicion of illegal fireworks. If they find them, they confiscate the fireworks and issue a warning (so no problem with proportionality). But the concept is the same. Monitoring people in an area you don&#039;t have jurisdiction and then stopping them where you do have jurisdicition. Of course this tends to catch the small fish. The smarter fireworks buyer uses two cars. One goes to the stand and meets up with the second car a mile or two down the road. When you get pulled over, no fireworks in the car (best make sure you license, insurance and registration is all up to date though). The second car cruises past the &#039;border patrol&#039; (again make sure you aren&#039;t breaking the law otherwise).

When they do this, they talk big in the paper about fines and jail time for fire work violators. But in the real world, they just take the offending items.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two issues. One is proportionality and the other is the observation. Locally, we have different firework laws for different governmental entities (e.g. city vs county or one countyvs another). They have put people to monitor the firework stand in another governmental area (e.g. in the cigarrette case across state lines), transmitted the license plates and then had cops stationed at the major roads entering the city to pull over anyone whose tag is on the list. They pull them over on suspicion of illegal fireworks. If they find them, they confiscate the fireworks and issue a warning (so no problem with proportionality). But the concept is the same. Monitoring people in an area you don't have jurisdiction and then stopping them where you do have jurisdicition. Of course this tends to catch the small fish. The smarter fireworks buyer uses two cars. One goes to the stand and meets up with the second car a mile or two down the road. When you get pulled over, no fireworks in the car (best make sure you license, insurance and registration is all up to date though). The second car cruises past the 'border patrol' (again make sure you aren't breaking the law otherwise).</p>
<p>When they do this, they talk big in the paper about fines and jail time for fire work violators. But in the real world, they just take the offending items.</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170680</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170680</guid>
		<description>Illinois has been stealing cars with over 10 cartons for years. The state police even continued, in open defiance, after being directly ordered by the state supreme court to cease the practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Illinois has been stealing cars with over 10 cartons for years. The state police even continued, in open defiance, after being directly ordered by the state supreme court to cease the practice.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Plunk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170675</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Plunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170675</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve said it many time before, it&#039;s not the Feds we have to worry about as much as the state and local officials.  They will push this issue until someone pays the money to make it a constitutional issue.  Why not?  They have lawyers on staff paid to protect them and in the mean time they harass the citizens into compliance.

If John Cole can&#039;t see the difference between protecting American citizens from terrorist threats and spying on Americans for cigarette tax money why are we even mentioning what he wrote?  He would rather try and play games with conservatives instead tackling issues head on.  That is the refuge of those who can&#039;t make a good argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've said it many time before, it's not the Feds we have to worry about as much as the state and local officials.  They will push this issue until someone pays the money to make it a constitutional issue.  Why not?  They have lawyers on staff paid to protect them and in the mean time they harass the citizens into compliance.</p>
<p>If John Cole can't see the difference between protecting American citizens from terrorist threats and spying on Americans for cigarette tax money why are we even mentioning what he wrote?  He would rather try and play games with conservatives instead tackling issues head on.  That is the refuge of those who can't make a good argument.</p>
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		<title>By: One Hand Clapping</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170668</link>
		<dc:creator>One Hand Clapping</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170668</guid>
		<description>[...] increased revenue from the rise in taxes will be used to pay for stopping freelance bootleggers. James Joyner (whence the cite) asks, reasonably [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] increased revenue from the rise in taxes will be used to pay for stopping freelance bootleggers. James Joyner (whence the cite) asks, reasonably [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/comment-page-1/#comment-170656</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/09/tennessee_cigarette_police_state/#comment-170656</guid>
		<description>My recollection is that New Hampshire tried to pull this stunt with either liquor a while back, by parking unmarked cars at Massachusetts state liquor stores and radioing the license plates of those NH cars who stopped at the stores to cops stationed over the border to pull them over.  MA&#039;s cops, who were ticked off at the loss of revenue at the state stores, then struck back by ticketing and otherwise harassing the NH cops.  NH then gave up on the plan.

My guess is that any Tennessee sheriffs who pull this stunt will meet a similar fate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My recollection is that New Hampshire tried to pull this stunt with either liquor a while back, by parking unmarked cars at Massachusetts state liquor stores and radioing the license plates of those NH cars who stopped at the stores to cops stationed over the border to pull them over.  MA's cops, who were ticked off at the loss of revenue at the state stores, then struck back by ticketing and otherwise harassing the NH cops.  NH then gave up on the plan.</p>
<p>My guess is that any Tennessee sheriffs who pull this stunt will meet a similar fate.</p>
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