<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Texas Limits &#8216;10%&#8217; Admissions</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/</link>
	<description>Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:28:09 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054742</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054742</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Since the introduction of Top Ten percent, the 4-year graduation rate increased at UT from 35 percent to 55 percent or so. If anything, the program improved the academic quality of the institution.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My guess -- and it&#039;s only that -- is that they&#039;ve thereby increased the percentage of students at UT for whom UT was their first choice.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Unfortunately, it also kept kids in rich suburban districts in the top third of their class from attending their birthright institution.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know why everyone assumes kids in affluent schools are legacies. People can make the leap  -- as both my wife and I have -- in a single generation into the upper middle class through hard work, good choices, and a little luck.  We were both first generation college.  We&#039;re not at all unusual. 

Odds are, our daughter will go to &quot;better&quot; schools than we did, since cost won&#039;t be a top consideration.  But there&#039;s essentially a regional quota system that makes it harder for bright kids in the DC suburbs of Northern Virginia to get into the University of Virginia than it is for students in the rest of the state. Test scores and whatnot are just disproportionately better here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Since the introduction of Top Ten percent, the 4-year graduation rate increased at UT from 35 percent to 55 percent or so. If anything, the program improved the academic quality of the institution.</p></blockquote>
<p>My guess -- and it's only that -- is that they've thereby increased the percentage of students at UT for whom UT was their first choice.</p>
<blockquote><p>Unfortunately, it also kept kids in rich suburban districts in the top third of their class from attending their birthright institution.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I don't know why everyone assumes kids in affluent schools are legacies. People can make the leap  -- as both my wife and I have -- in a single generation into the upper middle class through hard work, good choices, and a little luck.  We were both first generation college.  We're not at all unusual. </p>
<p>Odds are, our daughter will go to "better" schools than we did, since cost won't be a top consideration.  But there's essentially a regional quota system that makes it harder for bright kids in the DC suburbs of Northern Virginia to get into the University of Virginia than it is for students in the rest of the state. Test scores and whatnot are just disproportionately better here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Blue</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054675</link>
		<dc:creator>Blue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:42:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054675</guid>
		<description>Since the introduction of Top Ten percent, the 4-year graduation rate increased at UT from 35 percent to 55 percent or so.  If anything, the program improved the academic quality of the institution.

Unfortunately, it also kept kids in rich suburban districts in the top third of their class from attending their birthright institution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the introduction of Top Ten percent, the 4-year graduation rate increased at UT from 35 percent to 55 percent or so.  If anything, the program improved the academic quality of the institution.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, it also kept kids in rich suburban districts in the top third of their class from attending their birthright institution.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Trumwill</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054524</link>
		<dc:creator>Trumwill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 23:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054524</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d be interested to know what the graduation rates are among the 10% and the other student body. If the 10%ers have lower graduation rates, that would be pretty damning. If they don&#039;t, it&#039;s less conclusive but harder to argue that the university is suffering a great deal when their non-10% admits aren&#039;t doing as well.

While it&#039;s true that those kicked off by Texas can go to A&amp;M, it may not be long before you have a waterfall effect where A&amp;M becomes too crowded and they have to kick down to Texas Tech or the University of Houston or an alternate UT/A&amp;M campus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd be interested to know what the graduation rates are among the 10% and the other student body. If the 10%ers have lower graduation rates, that would be pretty damning. If they don't, it's less conclusive but harder to argue that the university is suffering a great deal when their non-10% admits aren't doing as well.</p>
<p>While it's true that those kicked off by Texas can go to A&amp;M, it may not be long before you have a waterfall effect where A&amp;M becomes too crowded and they have to kick down to Texas Tech or the University of Houston or an alternate UT/A&amp;M campus.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054521</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 23:17:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054521</guid>
		<description>You could always open up more university branches if the student population is getting too big. After all, it&#039;s guaranteed entrance, not guaranteed tuition, so all those kids will be paying their tuition one way or another.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You could always open up more university branches if the student population is getting too big. After all, it's guaranteed entrance, not guaranteed tuition, so all those kids will be paying their tuition one way or another.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054519</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 23:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054519</guid>
		<description>If you&#039;re really worried about mediocrities defaulting in to the public college system, you could raise the criteria to the top 5% automatically having admission into college, and then do a combination of a high admission standard plus &quot;exemptions&quot; for students going into a particular area (computer science, medical, sports, whatever) to make up the rest of a student body.

I like the 10 Percent idea, to be honest. At the very least, even if it is a mediocre school, you&#039;re still getting the students who were willing to put the most effort into their education. That&#039;s something, particularly in areas where there are high drop-out rates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you're really worried about mediocrities defaulting in to the public college system, you could raise the criteria to the top 5% automatically having admission into college, and then do a combination of a high admission standard plus "exemptions" for students going into a particular area (computer science, medical, sports, whatever) to make up the rest of a student body.</p>
<p>I like the 10 Percent idea, to be honest. At the very least, even if it is a mediocre school, you're still getting the students who were willing to put the most effort into their education. That's something, particularly in areas where there are high drop-out rates.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054510</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 23:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054510</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It was based on the comment prior to mine, which indicated that some of those in the top 10% of their class would for some reason have a low probability of being able to graduate college.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Gotcha.  While it&#039;s quite possible that there are people who graduate the top 10% of a weak class are unready for an elite university, I tend to think that argument is overblown.  A relative merit argument is more interesting, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It was based on the comment prior to mine, which indicated that some of those in the top 10% of their class would for some reason have a low probability of being able to graduate college.</p></blockquote>
<p>Gotcha.  While it's quite possible that there are people who graduate the top 10% of a weak class are unready for an elite university, I tend to think that argument is overblown.  A relative merit argument is more interesting, though.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Furhead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054440</link>
		<dc:creator>Furhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054440</guid>
		<description>JJ-

It was based on the comment prior to mine, which indicated that some of those in the top 10% of their class would for some reason have a low probability of being able to graduate college.  I&#039;m still wondering why.  Because the school they attended didn&#039;t have enough money for a debate team?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JJ-</p>
<p>It was based on the comment prior to mine, which indicated that some of those in the top 10% of their class would for some reason have a low probability of being able to graduate college.  I'm still wondering why.  Because the school they attended didn't have enough money for a debate team?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054435</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054435</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So being better than everyone around you is not meritorious? Oh, wise one, what is the perfect measurement of merit? Standardized tests, I assume?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not sure who this is directed at.  Presumably, they&#039;d do what other competitive schools do:  Use a complicated calculation that includes class rank, standardized test scores, extracurriculars, essays, and various other factors rather than a single data point.  

Class rank is very useful but not as a standalone. Being ranked in the second decile at an elite school doesn&#039;t necessarily make you less meritorious than someone ranked in the first decile of a poor one.  Standardized tests help provide an, um, standardized metric but they&#039;re obviously highly flawed as well.  But given how high the stakes are, more than one data point is needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So being better than everyone around you is not meritorious? Oh, wise one, what is the perfect measurement of merit? Standardized tests, I assume?</p></blockquote>
<p>Not sure who this is directed at.  Presumably, they'd do what other competitive schools do:  Use a complicated calculation that includes class rank, standardized test scores, extracurriculars, essays, and various other factors rather than a single data point.  </p>
<p>Class rank is very useful but not as a standalone. Being ranked in the second decile at an elite school doesn't necessarily make you less meritorious than someone ranked in the first decile of a poor one.  Standardized tests help provide an, um, standardized metric but they're obviously highly flawed as well.  But given how high the stakes are, more than one data point is needed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Furhead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054429</link>
		<dc:creator>Furhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054429</guid>
		<description>So being better than everyone around you is not meritorious?  Oh, wise one, what is the perfect measurement of merit?  Standardized tests, I assume?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So being better than everyone around you is not meritorious?  Oh, wise one, what is the perfect measurement of merit?  Standardized tests, I assume?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: William d'Inger</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054422</link>
		<dc:creator>William d'Inger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054422</guid>
		<description>If Texas gives slots to 10%-ers who have low probabilities of making it to graduation, what&#039;s the utility in that?  The trouble with many social &quot;feel good&quot; programs is that they waste valuable resources with little real hope of accomplishing anything. With all the universities in the state, you would think Texans would have enough sense to have one based on merit rather than political correctness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Texas gives slots to 10%-ers who have low probabilities of making it to graduation, what's the utility in that?  The trouble with many social "feel good" programs is that they waste valuable resources with little real hope of accomplishing anything. With all the universities in the state, you would think Texans would have enough sense to have one based on merit rather than political correctness.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Googler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054339</link>
		<dc:creator>Googler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:16:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054339</guid>
		<description>John writes: &quot;If you are applying for a job at Google, or one of the companies emulating them, not going to the premier school automatically eliminates you. True, it&#039;s an edge case, but it&#039;s a telling one.&quot;

That&#039;s not true at all. School is one factor, but definitely not a necessary one. Work experience trumps schooling, and is a much better predictor of performance.

But, yes, somewhere along the line, you must show that you can stand out from the crowd through hard work and your own accomplishments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John writes: "If you are applying for a job at Google, or one of the companies emulating them, not going to the premier school automatically eliminates you. True, it's an edge case, but it's a telling one."</p>
<p>That's not true at all. School is one factor, but definitely not a necessary one. Work experience trumps schooling, and is a much better predictor of performance.</p>
<p>But, yes, somewhere along the line, you must show that you can stand out from the crowd through hard work and your own accomplishments.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054306</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:48:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054306</guid>
		<description>If you are applying for a job at Google, or one of the companies emulating them, not going to the premier school automatically eliminates you. True, it&#039;s an edge case, but it&#039;s a telling one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are applying for a job at Google, or one of the companies emulating them, not going to the premier school automatically eliminates you. True, it's an edge case, but it's a telling one.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Texas Ten Percent To End &#171; Around The Sphere</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054290</link>
		<dc:creator>Texas Ten Percent To End &#171; Around The Sphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 15:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054290</guid>
		<description>[...] James Joyner: Now, the sports recruiting argument is hard to justify, both in terms of the mission of the university and in terms of UT’s obvious success in recruiting for key sports.  But the “10 percent” program is obviously making it nearly impossible to recruit international and even out-of-state students. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] James Joyner: Now, the sports recruiting argument is hard to justify, both in terms of the mission of the university and in terms of UT&rsquo;s obvious success in recruiting for key sports.  But the “10 percent” program is obviously making it nearly impossible to recruit international and even out-of-state students. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Furhead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054283</link>
		<dc:creator>Furhead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:39:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054283</guid>
		<description>I have, for a long time, advocated the idea of class rank in place of explicit race-based affirmative action.  To a large extent you are influenced by those around you (i.e. you will probably score higher on standardized tests if you are surrounded by others who score high on standardized tests, because you study with those people and learn from their answers in class, etc.).

I didn&#039;t realize this was being done on a wide scale in Texas.  That said, the adjustment for the given reasons sounds reasonable.

Regarding the distribution of resources, I think the general goal should be to try to get the best out of everybody, which starts with a solid K-12 education.  I don&#039;t think anybody is convinced that that is happening.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have, for a long time, advocated the idea of class rank in place of explicit race-based affirmative action.  To a large extent you are influenced by those around you (i.e. you will probably score higher on standardized tests if you are surrounded by others who score high on standardized tests, because you study with those people and learn from their answers in class, etc.).</p>
<p>I didn't realize this was being done on a wide scale in Texas.  That said, the adjustment for the given reasons sounds reasonable.</p>
<p>Regarding the distribution of resources, I think the general goal should be to try to get the best out of everybody, which starts with a solid K-12 education.  I don't think anybody is convinced that that is happening.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: odograph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/texas_limits_10_admissions_/comment-page-1/#comment-1054275</link>
		<dc:creator>odograph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=36971#comment-1054275</guid>
		<description>BTW, I suspect that UT&#039;s football program does provide those positive economic benefits to the state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, I suspect that UT's football program does provide those positive economic benefits to the state.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
