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	<title>Comments on: The Case For Credentialism</title>
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		<title>By: yetanotherjohn</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122852</link>
		<dc:creator>yetanotherjohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 14:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122852</guid>
		<description>My father had a winding road to his first job after getting his masters in mechanical engineering (had to leave home to go to high school during the depression, work to save for college, one semester then off to WWII). When he went to apply to the company he ended up working for 36 years, he took a year off his age. He was born at home (as were 5 other of his 10 siblings) with his father as midwife. Given the number of kids, there was a bit of confusion which year he was born, but probably not enough to justify the year. He did it because he was older than his peers, so he shaved a year. He rose from draftsman to a group vice president in an international company. When it came time to retire, he called up the VP of personnel (or human resources or whatever they were calling it at the time) and explained that there was a discrepancy in the corporate records. A change was made in corporate records. It didn&#039;t add or subtract to his pension. He did retire in the same year that the president and executive vice president of the company retired (which just happened to correspond to the peak of benefits for executive retirements).

I don&#039;t know if his shaving a year impacted his getting the job. Probably no one alive really knows, though my father thought it would help his chances. Obviously he prospered in the company. I don&#039;t know, but I suspect that his age was presented on more than one occasion (e.g. conferences or press releases). I don&#039;t know what age he used in such situations. I know from my business experience dealing with Europe and Asia, that especially in Asia being a bit older doesn&#039;t hurt. So if he used the younger age, he would have marginally lost a tad bit of respect.

In a way, he was not claiming credit (one more year of life experience) than he was due. Given the life experiences he had, that was not a low point in his resume. The reason the company would want a younger person was to get a longer useful career, but it would be hard to say that my father short changed them after 36 years. 

But the argument could be made that he, like Jones perpetuated the lie every day he went to work. The argument could also be made that both showed they could do the job. Maybe it&#039;s my natural bias, but I see the claiming of degrees as more important than the shaving of a year though the principle is the same for both. By claiming a bachelors, masters and doctorate, you are making a claim about 7 to 9 years of your life. You are saying you have done what you are admitting students to do. Further, by claiming to have achieved these degrees in a time when women getting advanced scientific degrees was rarer, you have a special insight into the what she was initially asked to focus on (recruitment of women).

In the end, I think her being dismissed was because she had promoted her false degrees to often and it struck at the heart of the diploma mill business. If she had never claimed a college degree past her job interview, they might have been able to just look at her record in the job. No one would have known whether she had or didn&#039;t have a degree. Assumptions on their part would have been their issue unless she led them on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My father had a winding road to his first job after getting his masters in mechanical engineering (had to leave home to go to high school during the depression, work to save for college, one semester then off to WWII). When he went to apply to the company he ended up working for 36 years, he took a year off his age. He was born at home (as were 5 other of his 10 siblings) with his father as midwife. Given the number of kids, there was a bit of confusion which year he was born, but probably not enough to justify the year. He did it because he was older than his peers, so he shaved a year. He rose from draftsman to a group vice president in an international company. When it came time to retire, he called up the VP of personnel (or human resources or whatever they were calling it at the time) and explained that there was a discrepancy in the corporate records. A change was made in corporate records. It didn't add or subtract to his pension. He did retire in the same year that the president and executive vice president of the company retired (which just happened to correspond to the peak of benefits for executive retirements).</p>
<p>I don't know if his shaving a year impacted his getting the job. Probably no one alive really knows, though my father thought it would help his chances. Obviously he prospered in the company. I don't know, but I suspect that his age was presented on more than one occasion (e.g. conferences or press releases). I don't know what age he used in such situations. I know from my business experience dealing with Europe and Asia, that especially in Asia being a bit older doesn't hurt. So if he used the younger age, he would have marginally lost a tad bit of respect.</p>
<p>In a way, he was not claiming credit (one more year of life experience) than he was due. Given the life experiences he had, that was not a low point in his resume. The reason the company would want a younger person was to get a longer useful career, but it would be hard to say that my father short changed them after 36 years. </p>
<p>But the argument could be made that he, like Jones perpetuated the lie every day he went to work. The argument could also be made that both showed they could do the job. Maybe it's my natural bias, but I see the claiming of degrees as more important than the shaving of a year though the principle is the same for both. By claiming a bachelors, masters and doctorate, you are making a claim about 7 to 9 years of your life. You are saying you have done what you are admitting students to do. Further, by claiming to have achieved these degrees in a time when women getting advanced scientific degrees was rarer, you have a special insight into the what she was initially asked to focus on (recruitment of women).</p>
<p>In the end, I think her being dismissed was because she had promoted her false degrees to often and it struck at the heart of the diploma mill business. If she had never claimed a college degree past her job interview, they might have been able to just look at her record in the job. No one would have known whether she had or didn't have a degree. Assumptions on their part would have been their issue unless she led them on.</p>
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		<title>By: vnjagvet</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122737</link>
		<dc:creator>vnjagvet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 05:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122737</guid>
		<description>Especially, Chris, since her department is tasked with evaluating resumes and academic records of candidates who present themselves for admission at MIT.  

The idea that resume or credential fudging or padding is somehow justified because, after all, &quot;the Director did it&quot; does not seem to be the kind of thing that MIT should implicitly encourage by keeping her in that slot.

OTOH, it wouldn&#039;t offend me if she were removed from her current position and considered for some out-of-the-public-eye staff position until she reaches retirement age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Especially, Chris, since her department is tasked with evaluating resumes and academic records of candidates who present themselves for admission at MIT.  </p>
<p>The idea that resume or credential fudging or padding is somehow justified because, after all, "the Director did it" does not seem to be the kind of thing that MIT should implicitly encourage by keeping her in that slot.</p>
<p>OTOH, it wouldn't offend me if she were removed from her current position and considered for some out-of-the-public-eye staff position until she reaches retirement age.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122726</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 03:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122726</guid>
		<description>ZZZzzz...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ZZZzzz...</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122723</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 03:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122723</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that something has been missed in this debate.  At any university that has an honor code and expects its students not to lie, cheat, or steal, under punishment of potential expulsion (which presumably is the case at MIT), administrators and faculty &lt;i&gt;must&lt;/i&gt; be held to the same standards as students.  Anything short of firing Jones would send a dangerous signal that lack of academic integrity is somehow redeemable by loyalty, length of service, or simply skating by for 28 years without getting caught.

The end of the academy is the search for knowledge and truth.  Ms. Jones is a willful liar and a charlatan, and like others who subvert truth and the search for knowledge, she has no place in the academy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that something has been missed in this debate.  At any university that has an honor code and expects its students not to lie, cheat, or steal, under punishment of potential expulsion (which presumably is the case at MIT), administrators and faculty <i>must</i> be held to the same standards as students.  Anything short of firing Jones would send a dangerous signal that lack of academic integrity is somehow redeemable by loyalty, length of service, or simply skating by for 28 years without getting caught.</p>
<p>The end of the academy is the search for knowledge and truth.  Ms. Jones is a willful liar and a charlatan, and like others who subvert truth and the search for knowledge, she has no place in the academy.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122706</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122706</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;It seems to me that Ms. Jones&#039; error merited a reprimand and maybe a chastising letter&lt;/em&gt;

But she represented herself as having a BA, MA, and PhD she didn&#039;t have. Granted, I have no idea why a biology PhD would work in an admissions office, let alone why it would be useful.  Still, she&#039;s a liar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>It seems to me that Ms. Jones' error merited a reprimand and maybe a chastising letter</em></p>
<p>But she represented herself as having a BA, MA, and PhD she didn't have. Granted, I have no idea why a biology PhD would work in an admissions office, let alone why it would be useful.  Still, she's a liar.</p>
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		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122701</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122701</guid>
		<description>In theory, a college education is supposed to be a lot more than vocational training.  When I look at resumes and transcripts from younger people I pay special attention to what a propective employee did outside their major to see if they were motiviated, dedicated, and hopefully thoughtful in what they chose to take to educate themselves.  Is this a well rounded person who will be able to function and grow in an organization or someone just trying to get by, no matter how well they were able to get by?  Even so, the half life of any kind of credentialism based on technology can&#039;t be more than four or five years now.

It seems to me that Ms. Jones&#039; error merited a reprimand and maybe a chastising letter that would be placed on her permanent record (shudder), but clearly she knew how to do her job and that should have triumphed not actually having a degree.  Unless, of course, she was forced to resign for being the type of liar who is really only sorry they got caught, in which case her dismissal might well be warranted.  Has there ever been a more appropriate situation for the application of double secret probation than this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In theory, a college education is supposed to be a lot more than vocational training.  When I look at resumes and transcripts from younger people I pay special attention to what a propective employee did outside their major to see if they were motiviated, dedicated, and hopefully thoughtful in what they chose to take to educate themselves.  Is this a well rounded person who will be able to function and grow in an organization or someone just trying to get by, no matter how well they were able to get by?  Even so, the half life of any kind of credentialism based on technology can't be more than four or five years now.</p>
<p>It seems to me that Ms. Jones' error merited a reprimand and maybe a chastising letter that would be placed on her permanent record (shudder), but clearly she knew how to do her job and that should have triumphed not actually having a degree.  Unless, of course, she was forced to resign for being the type of liar who is really only sorry they got caught, in which case her dismissal might well be warranted.  Has there ever been a more appropriate situation for the application of double secret probation than this?</p>
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		<title>By: legion</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122699</link>
		<dc:creator>legion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 22:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122699</guid>
		<description>Why? Same reason fresh med school grads still have to pull 36-hour shifts, despite the obvious threat to patient safety - &quot;Young man, when I was your age &lt;strong&gt;I &lt;/strong&gt;had to do it, so by God, &lt;strong&gt;you &lt;/strong&gt;have to do it too!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why? Same reason fresh med school grads still have to pull 36-hour shifts, despite the obvious threat to patient safety - "Young man, when I was your age <strong>I </strong>had to do it, so by God, <strong>you </strong>have to do it too!"</p>
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		<title>By: Rick DeMent</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122697</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick DeMent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 21:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122697</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;In most jobs, including academe, there are alternative paths for those who bypassed traditional credentialing.&lt;/i&gt;

This is becoming increasingly rare every day, in may last job search two months ago I was not even allowed to apply for jobs I was clearly qualified simply because I did not have a degree in the field in which I have 15 years of experience. Somehow I am a much worse bet because I didn&#039;t study IT technologies in collage 25 years ago that are all antiquated today.

In todays job market credentialing trumps common sense all the time because people don&#039;t actually look at resumes anymore, computers do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>In most jobs, including academe, there are alternative paths for those who bypassed traditional credentialing.</i></p>
<p>This is becoming increasingly rare every day, in may last job search two months ago I was not even allowed to apply for jobs I was clearly qualified simply because I did not have a degree in the field in which I have 15 years of experience. Somehow I am a much worse bet because I didn't study IT technologies in collage 25 years ago that are all antiquated today.</p>
<p>In todays job market credentialing trumps common sense all the time because people don't actually look at resumes anymore, computers do.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Collins</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122518</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122518</guid>
		<description>She enjoyed the salary and perquisites for 28 years.  I&#039;m not weeping.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She enjoyed the salary and perquisites for 28 years.  I'm not weeping.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122513</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 19:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122513</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;There are many, many more direct ways of assessing ompetence than academic degrees. Competitive examination. Prior job experience. Life experience. And so on.&lt;/em&gt;

But those are awfully expensive and inefficient processes for employers to go through. Credentialing provides an easy pre-screen.

And, again, I think a college degree is mostly useful in distinguishing 25-year-olds from one another.  Once you&#039;ve got a pretty substantial resume, it becomes pointless.

Indeed, I find it amusing that, for some jobs, they want copies of my nearly-20-year-old college transcripts.  This, despite two subsequent graduate degrees and a lifetime of experience.

For that matter, I have lost out on college teaching jobs because another candidate had more direct coursework than I did in some minor area the position called upon us to teach.  That, even though I&#039;d been out of school for several years and, frankly, would have had to re-teach myself most of the material if I hadn&#039;t kept up-to-date by having taught the course.

I&#039;m not arguing for credentialing to override common sense, just that it&#039;s useful in its place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>There are many, many more direct ways of assessing ompetence than academic degrees. Competitive examination. Prior job experience. Life experience. And so on.</em></p>
<p>But those are awfully expensive and inefficient processes for employers to go through. Credentialing provides an easy pre-screen.</p>
<p>And, again, I think a college degree is mostly useful in distinguishing 25-year-olds from one another.  Once you've got a pretty substantial resume, it becomes pointless.</p>
<p>Indeed, I find it amusing that, for some jobs, they want copies of my nearly-20-year-old college transcripts.  This, despite two subsequent graduate degrees and a lifetime of experience.</p>
<p>For that matter, I have lost out on college teaching jobs because another candidate had more direct coursework than I did in some minor area the position called upon us to teach.  That, even though I'd been out of school for several years and, frankly, would have had to re-teach myself most of the material if I hadn't kept up-to-date by having taught the course.</p>
<p>I'm not arguing for credentialing to override common sense, just that it's useful in its place.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-122505</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 18:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-122505</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t entirely buy your &#147;signalling mechanism&#147; justification, James.  I think there&#039;s a simpler justification for credentialism in the highly specific hothouse case of the academic environment.  Institutions of higher education are in the business (at least in part) of selling degrees.  It&#039;s a crass way of putting it but a true one.  If they didn&#039;t act in a case like Ms. Jones&#039;s, they&#039;d be unselling their own product.  That&#039;s poor marketing.

There are many, many more direct ways of assessing  ompetence than academic degrees.  Competitive examination.  Prior job experience.  Life experience.  And so on.

Additionally, in fields that are diversifying very rapidly credentialling puts a possibly imprudent premium on something that of speculative value (e.g. a newly-minted credential in a brand-new field) over something that&#039;s of proven value (e.g. hands-on experience).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't entirely buy your &#8220;signalling mechanism&#8220; justification, James.  I think there's a simpler justification for credentialism in the highly specific hothouse case of the academic environment.  Institutions of higher education are in the business (at least in part) of selling degrees.  It's a crass way of putting it but a true one.  If they didn't act in a case like Ms. Jones's, they'd be unselling their own product.  That's poor marketing.</p>
<p>There are many, many more direct ways of assessing  ompetence than academic degrees.  Competitive examination.  Prior job experience.  Life experience.  And so on.</p>
<p>Additionally, in fields that are diversifying very rapidly credentialling puts a possibly imprudent premium on something that of speculative value (e.g. a newly-minted credential in a brand-new field) over something that's of proven value (e.g. hands-on experience).</p>
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		<title>By: World and Global Politics Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_case_for_credentialism/comment-page-1/#comment-128259</link>
		<dc:creator>World and Global Politics Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 1969 18:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/04/the_case_for_credentialism/#comment-128259</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt; on Pamela Martin’s requirements for employees of her DC “escort” service, observes, “Now how’s that for out-of-control credentialism — two years’ college to be a hooker?”  Now, I’m all for credentialism but even I fail to see how a college education contributes the skill set required for work in the oldest profession. Presumably, though, these women actually were doing some actual escorting in addition to their, ahem, more noteworthy duties and Martin&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!--%kramer-pre%--> on Pamela Martin&rsquo;s requirements for employees of her DC “escort” service, observes, “Now how&rsquo;s that for out-of-control credentialism — two years&rsquo; college to be a hooker?”  Now, I&rsquo;m all for credentialism but even I fail to see how a college education contributes the skill set required for work in the oldest profession. Presumably, though, these women actually were doing some actual escorting in addition to their, ahem, more noteworthy duties and Martin<!--%kramer-post%--></p>
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