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	<title>Comments on: The Liberal Baby Bust</title>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76450</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 22:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76450</guid>
		<description>the main reasons liberals are lagging behind on procreation are 1] they can&#039;t figure this whole &quot;male- female&quot; thing out,or how it works, and 2] they can&#039;t figure out how to get the government to do &quot;it&quot; for them. they have, however, figured out how to get the government to do &quot;it&quot; to their fellow citizens.[lol]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the main reasons liberals are lagging behind on procreation are 1] they can't figure this whole "male- female" thing out,or how it works, and 2] they can't figure out how to get the government to do "it" for them. they have, however, figured out how to get the government to do "it" to their fellow citizens.[lol]</p>
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		<title>By: ICallMasICM</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76420</link>
		<dc:creator>ICallMasICM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76420</guid>
		<description>JJ - I think you&#039;re betraying a little bit of your personal preference in your characterization of us MWK&#039;s. I think there&#039;s a common misconception from people who don&#039;t have children that people who are raising families are making huge sacrifices and why they are doing what they do. I think it&#039;s pretty common knowledge that people who are maried and stay married live longer, are healthier and so on. But more to the point I think that it&#039;s more people&#039;s views on family that are going to tend to drive their social views than peoples social views determining whether they&#039;re going to have kids or not. Look at the marriage gap in voting. Maybe I&#039;m wrong but I don&#039;t think a whole lot of people say if they&#039;re going to drill in ANWR I don&#039;t want to raise kids. And if they do I think they&#039;re lying. I do think a lot of people think I&#039;ve got a family that I want to be safe and secure and I don&#039;t want to pay $3 for a gallon of gas so I guess we should get more oil from someplace.

The same thing about personal fulfillment through work. I think if that&#039;s your focus then you may choose to not have children but if you choose to have a family you&#039;re going to work to provide for them. My wife graduated from Smith with a double major but we&#039;re both from families with a lot of kids and there was never any question about what our priorities were. I know there&#039;s some lack of personal fulfillment, or least going out to lunch and shopping in town, from not working but I&#039;d say that hardly compares to the lack of personal fulfillment people who have no families experience. But that&#039;s just IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JJ - I think you're betraying a little bit of your personal preference in your characterization of us MWK's. I think there's a common misconception from people who don't have children that people who are raising families are making huge sacrifices and why they are doing what they do. I think it's pretty common knowledge that people who are maried and stay married live longer, are healthier and so on. But more to the point I think that it's more people's views on family that are going to tend to drive their social views than peoples social views determining whether they're going to have kids or not. Look at the marriage gap in voting. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think a whole lot of people say if they're going to drill in ANWR I don't want to raise kids. And if they do I think they're lying. I do think a lot of people think I've got a family that I want to be safe and secure and I don't want to pay $3 for a gallon of gas so I guess we should get more oil from someplace.</p>
<p>The same thing about personal fulfillment through work. I think if that's your focus then you may choose to not have children but if you choose to have a family you're going to work to provide for them. My wife graduated from Smith with a double major but we're both from families with a lot of kids and there was never any question about what our priorities were. I know there's some lack of personal fulfillment, or least going out to lunch and shopping in town, from not working but I'd say that hardly compares to the lack of personal fulfillment people who have no families experience. But that's just IMHO.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76414</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76414</guid>
		<description>In 1975, the movie would have been a saucy &quot;X&quot;!

NC-17 was introduced in 1990. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC-17</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In 1975, the movie would have been a saucy "X"!</p>
<p>NC-17 was introduced in 1990. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC-17" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NC-17</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76411</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76411</guid>
		<description>Tano;

Are you suggesting it&#039;s pure reactionary, with no real logic to it at all?

I submit that one reason boomer +1 generation swing so far right was they were first-hand witnesses to the damage the liberalism held, caused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tano;</p>
<p>Are you suggesting it's pure reactionary, with no real logic to it at all?</p>
<p>I submit that one reason boomer +1 generation swing so far right was they were first-hand witnesses to the damage the liberalism held, caused.</p>
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		<title>By: Tano</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76405</link>
		<dc:creator>Tano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76405</guid>
		<description>The rebellion factor is being overlooked here. Remember that it was the &quot;greatest generation&quot; that spawned the 60&#039;s hippies. And the children of the hippies are todays somewhat more conservative generation. A generation of conservative parents will inevitably spawn a generation of frustrated rebellious children who define themselves in opposition to thier parents, once again. This is especially true given the incessant dynamic of globalization and inter-connectedness playing off against the deeply reactionary instincts of today&#039;s conservatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The rebellion factor is being overlooked here. Remember that it was the "greatest generation" that spawned the 60's hippies. And the children of the hippies are todays somewhat more conservative generation. A generation of conservative parents will inevitably spawn a generation of frustrated rebellious children who define themselves in opposition to thier parents, once again. This is especially true given the incessant dynamic of globalization and inter-connectedness playing off against the deeply reactionary instincts of today's conservatives.</p>
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		<title>By: Bithead</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76403</link>
		<dc:creator>Bithead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76403</guid>
		<description>What we are seeing, here, is a culture repulsed by the extreme left of it&#039;s social spectrum, and returning to it&#039;s roots in reaction to it. And the population numbers reported tell the remainder of the story.. each end of the spectrum getting increasingly radical, but the conservatives winning out on sheer numbers.

So, (apologies to Mr. Smith) the invisible hand works in things cultural, too, and the culture moves to protect itself. All without governmental intervention. Indeed, in SPITE of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What we are seeing, here, is a culture repulsed by the extreme left of it's social spectrum, and returning to it's roots in reaction to it. And the population numbers reported tell the remainder of the story.. each end of the spectrum getting increasingly radical, but the conservatives winning out on sheer numbers.</p>
<p>So, (apologies to Mr. Smith) the invisible hand works in things cultural, too, and the culture moves to protect itself. All without governmental intervention. Indeed, in SPITE of it.</p>
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		<title>By: yetanotherjohn</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76399</link>
		<dc:creator>yetanotherjohn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76399</guid>
		<description>I think you are looking at a particular watermark on a wall and assuming the water will always be that high. Take a look through history and you find that what is considered socially acceptable wanes and waxes with regularity.

What is new now is that where before &quot;liberals&quot; and &quot;conservatives&quot; (which in ways have exchanged each others positions in the political dance) would likely have the same number of children. They would each recruit from the others rebellious children and nurture their own conforming children. Since the technology of controlling the number of children born was limited, the birth rates remained relatively he same. But now the technological advances in birth control and the legality of abortion allows a great deal of autonomy on selecting the size of the family. Check out the CDC rates on births and abortions. You can almost pick out red and blue states from that alone.

Since roughly 1/3 of the children rebel against how they were raised, the &quot;conservatives&quot; will be recruiting from a smaller pool of &quot;liberal&quot; off spring, but that will be more than made up for by their larger pool of conforming children.

This is likely to play out over several generations (with the first generation showing the least effects being those born in ~1950). But the evolutionary numbers are inevitable. Look at it in terms of evolution, take any trait and reduce those who carry that trait&#039;s birth rate. See how long it takes for that trait to disappear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are looking at a particular watermark on a wall and assuming the water will always be that high. Take a look through history and you find that what is considered socially acceptable wanes and waxes with regularity.</p>
<p>What is new now is that where before "liberals" and "conservatives" (which in ways have exchanged each others positions in the political dance) would likely have the same number of children. They would each recruit from the others rebellious children and nurture their own conforming children. Since the technology of controlling the number of children born was limited, the birth rates remained relatively he same. But now the technological advances in birth control and the legality of abortion allows a great deal of autonomy on selecting the size of the family. Check out the CDC rates on births and abortions. You can almost pick out red and blue states from that alone.</p>
<p>Since roughly 1/3 of the children rebel against how they were raised, the "conservatives" will be recruiting from a smaller pool of "liberal" off spring, but that will be more than made up for by their larger pool of conforming children.</p>
<p>This is likely to play out over several generations (with the first generation showing the least effects being those born in ~1950). But the evolutionary numbers are inevitable. Look at it in terms of evolution, take any trait and reduce those who carry that trait's birth rate. See how long it takes for that trait to disappear.</p>
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		<title>By: James Joyner</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76396</link>
		<dc:creator>James Joyner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76396</guid>
		<description>ICallMasICM:  We mostly agree.  See the two &quot;Related&quot; posts.

There&#039;s no doubt there are political trends in the country shifting right.  But few of those are on the &quot;values&quot; front that Longman&#039;s piece addresses.

Something can be both a choice and a sacrifice.  Raising children is one example.  Sure, people can view their duty to their children as the most important thing in their life and very much worth it.  There&#039;s little doubt, though, that doing so sacrifices a lot of personal freedom and, in the case of the educated woman who stays home with the kids, some degree of professional fulfillment as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ICallMasICM:  We mostly agree.  See the two "Related" posts.</p>
<p>There's no doubt there are political trends in the country shifting right.  But few of those are on the "values" front that Longman's piece addresses.</p>
<p>Something can be both a choice and a sacrifice.  Raising children is one example.  Sure, people can view their duty to their children as the most important thing in their life and very much worth it.  There's little doubt, though, that doing so sacrifices a lot of personal freedom and, in the case of the educated woman who stays home with the kids, some degree of professional fulfillment as well.</p>
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		<title>By: ICallMasICM</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76394</link>
		<dc:creator>ICallMasICM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/the_liberal_baby_bust/#comment-76394</guid>
		<description>I agree and disagree with you and think you&#039;re looking at some cultural trends and ignoring some others. No doubt there is a greater acceptance of homosexuality across all segments of society and no doubt there is a coarsening of language across all segments of society. To me these are fairly minor trappings than more overall cultural tendencies. You ask about a 70&#039;s era candidate advocating for gay marriage but what about a Y2K+ candidate advocating for expanded welfare programs or a mandatory minimum federal income or massive urban renewal projects. Granted there is plenty of insidious nibbling the expands gov&#039;t but look at the lessening power of liberal groups like organized labor. Look at the rate of home ownership and the lowering age of first time purchasers. Look at the demographics of census shifts out of the northeast and Rust Belt. I live in the bluest of blue cities and one thing you would notice is the number of vacant school buildings and the number of both public and parochial schools that have closed. Some of the reasons are cultural but one thing this guy doesn&#039;t seem to focus on is the economic aspects. 

One other comment &#039;Itâ??s probably true that somewhat more of them who can afford to do so make the sacrifice of staying home and raisingâ??or even home schoolingâ??their children than their progressive peers.&#039; - It&#039;s a choice not a sacrifice. This may be the one distinction that is more responsible for the differences in birth rates than any other. If one group thinks that children are a burden then they&#039;re probably not going to have so many. If another group thinks of children as the basis of a family and that&#039;s their focus then that&#039;s probably going to lead to a lot more little kiddies for that group. If that&#039;s the conservative/secularist divide then I&#039;m pretty sure I know who&#039;s going to procreate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree and disagree with you and think you're looking at some cultural trends and ignoring some others. No doubt there is a greater acceptance of homosexuality across all segments of society and no doubt there is a coarsening of language across all segments of society. To me these are fairly minor trappings than more overall cultural tendencies. You ask about a 70's era candidate advocating for gay marriage but what about a Y2K+ candidate advocating for expanded welfare programs or a mandatory minimum federal income or massive urban renewal projects. Granted there is plenty of insidious nibbling the expands gov't but look at the lessening power of liberal groups like organized labor. Look at the rate of home ownership and the lowering age of first time purchasers. Look at the demographics of census shifts out of the northeast and Rust Belt. I live in the bluest of blue cities and one thing you would notice is the number of vacant school buildings and the number of both public and parochial schools that have closed. Some of the reasons are cultural but one thing this guy doesn't seem to focus on is the economic aspects. </p>
<p>One other comment 'Itâ??s probably true that somewhat more of them who can afford to do so make the sacrifice of staying home and raisingâ??or even home schoolingâ??their children than their progressive peers.' - It's a choice not a sacrifice. This may be the one distinction that is more responsible for the differences in birth rates than any other. If one group thinks that children are a burden then they're probably not going to have so many. If another group thinks of children as the basis of a family and that's their focus then that's probably going to lead to a lot more little kiddies for that group. If that's the conservative/secularist divide then I'm pretty sure I know who's going to procreate.</p>
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		<title>By: Patrick McGuire</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_liberal_baby_bust/comment-page-1/#comment-76391</link>
		<dc:creator>Patrick McGuire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:17:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am surprised that the main reason of liberals losing out on the population race has been totally missed. It comes down to abortion. Liberals embrace the &quot;right&quot; of abortion on demand and are therefore much more likely to use it while conservatives are just the opposite. So while conservatives promote their values to their progeny, liberals abort their fetuses and thus have nobody to pass on their values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am surprised that the main reason of liberals losing out on the population race has been totally missed. It comes down to abortion. Liberals embrace the "right" of abortion on demand and are therefore much more likely to use it while conservatives are just the opposite. So while conservatives promote their values to their progeny, liberals abort their fetuses and thus have nobody to pass on their values.</p>
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