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	<title>Comments on: The Torture of an Innocent Man</title>
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		<title>By: America&#8217;s Gulag &#187; Comments from Left Field</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-316400</link>
		<dc:creator>America&#8217;s Gulag &#187; Comments from Left Field</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-316400</guid>
		<description>[...] when will charges be filed against the person or people who caused or allowed this to occur? As Alex Knapp writes, this was &#8220;a citizen of one of our most valued allies [who] was tortured, denied counsel for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] when will charges be filed against the person or people who caused or allowed this to occur? As Alex Knapp writes, this was &#8220;a citizen of one of our most valued allies [who] was tortured, denied counsel for [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Linda G. Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315614</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda G. Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 03:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315614</guid>
		<description>This was a good read.  Interestingly I was surprised at how much that bit affected people!  That is good, really good!  

It also proves how jaded I&#039;m becoming.  I have a blog &lt;a href=&quot;http://freedetainees.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://freedetainees.org&lt;/a&gt; and I research different detainees, post stories and actions, letter writing, petitions and so forth.  I also post related news.

It&#039;s all I do, I&#039;m not working right now, so all my time goes to that.  I am either reading, researching, writing, or posting and so.... when I saw his part of the interview I thought that it was in no way strong enough.  So many things could have been said and were not.  I am afraid a lot of people are going to say ah,, one time deal, he was lying or whatever.

In fact I have seen those types of comments.  It makes me want to scream.  

So.. it&#039;s great that you posted this article and it&#039;s good to see the positive comments!

Take Care,
Linda</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was a good read.  Interestingly I was surprised at how much that bit affected people!  That is good, really good!  </p>
<p>It also proves how jaded I'm becoming.  I have a blog <a href="http://freedetainees.org" rel="nofollow">http://freedetainees.org</a> and I research different detainees, post stories and actions, letter writing, petitions and so forth.  I also post related news.</p>
<p>It's all I do, I'm not working right now, so all my time goes to that.  I am either reading, researching, writing, or posting and so.... when I saw his part of the interview I thought that it was in no way strong enough.  So many things could have been said and were not.  I am afraid a lot of people are going to say ah,, one time deal, he was lying or whatever.</p>
<p>In fact I have seen those types of comments.  It makes me want to scream.  </p>
<p>So.. it's great that you posted this article and it's good to see the positive comments!</p>
<p>Take Care,<br />
Linda</p>
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		<title>By: Tom p</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315510</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom p</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315510</guid>
		<description>So....

for those who say &quot;it is not that bad (Kit &quot;backstroke&quot; Bond) or those who say &quot;5 mins would kill you&quot;... 

who wants to try it?

for those who cite the findings of a &quot;CSRT&quot; in which &quot;secret&quot; evidence is given...

who wants to subject themselves to the same &quot;rules of court&quot;??? 

C&#039;mon guys... this is America... land of the free and home of the brave...

or neither.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So....</p>
<p>for those who say "it is not that bad (Kit "backstroke" Bond) or those who say "5 mins would kill you"... </p>
<p>who wants to try it?</p>
<p>for those who cite the findings of a "CSRT" in which "secret" evidence is given...</p>
<p>who wants to subject themselves to the same "rules of court"??? </p>
<p>C'mon guys... this is America... land of the free and home of the brave...</p>
<p>or neither.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Traina</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315507</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Traina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315507</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;And if this (60 Minutes report) is true then he will no doubt be suing the US government for large sum of money.&lt;/i&gt;

He could try, but so far all the people who&#039;ve done so already have been stopped dead in their tracks by the State Secrets evidentiary privilege.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>And if this (60 Minutes report) is true then he will no doubt be suing the US government for large sum of money.</i></p>
<p>He could try, but so far all the people who've done so already have been stopped dead in their tracks by the State Secrets evidentiary privilege.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315488</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315488</guid>
		<description>Matt 
Yes there is. Crucifixion and BDSM enthusiast can do it in such a way that it won’t kill the person participating in it in a short period of time. Hanging from a ceiling by your arms without some other support will kill you long before 5 hours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt<br />
Yes there is. Crucifixion and BDSM enthusiast can do it in such a way that it won&rsquo;t kill the person participating in it in a short period of time. Hanging from a ceiling by your arms without some other support will kill you long before 5 hours.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315474</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315474</guid>
		<description>Wayne : There is a substantial difference between crucification and hanging someone by their arms (just ask any BDSM enthusiast)..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne : There is a substantial difference between crucification and hanging someone by their arms (just ask any BDSM enthusiast)..</p>
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		<title>By: glasnost</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315460</link>
		<dc:creator>glasnost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315460</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There are more serious matters to be concerned with.&lt;/i&gt;

It could have been you. That&#039;s how low the standard of evidence was. There&#039;s nothing more serious than that, but your mindless grudge against &quot;the mainstream media&quot; won&#039;t let you open your eyes.

Things like this make it empirically accurate to say that it is unsafe to be a Muslim in this country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>There are more serious matters to be concerned with.</i></p>
<p>It could have been you. That's how low the standard of evidence was. There's nothing more serious than that, but your mindless grudge against "the mainstream media" won't let you open your eyes.</p>
<p>Things like this make it empirically accurate to say that it is unsafe to be a Muslim in this country.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Henley</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315390</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Henley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315390</guid>
		<description>Alex, does James pay you for blogging here? Enough?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex, does James pay you for blogging here? Enough?</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315297</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315297</guid>
		<description>Kurnaz story is a little suspicious. He claimed “he was hoisted up on chains suspended by his arms from the ceiling of an aircraft hangar for five days. &quot;Every five or six hours they came and pulled me back down.”
According to web sources hanging by ones arms without any support would results in death in a relative short time.  
“Once deprived of support and unable to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion

Maybe Kurnaz was suspended with chains wrap around under his armpits or some other contraption but why not say that? One good lying technique is not to go into details because that can trip you up. 

What is the truth in this case? I am not sure but I’m not going to take either side word for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kurnaz story is a little suspicious. He claimed “he was hoisted up on chains suspended by his arms from the ceiling of an aircraft hangar for five days. "Every five or six hours they came and pulled me back down.”<br />
According to web sources hanging by ones arms without any support would results in death in a relative short time.<br />
“Once deprived of support and unable to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes.”<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion</a></p>
<p>Maybe Kurnaz was suspended with chains wrap around under his armpits or some other contraption but why not say that? One good lying technique is not to go into details because that can trip you up. </p>
<p>What is the truth in this case? I am not sure but I&rsquo;m not going to take either side word for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Plunk</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315283</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Plunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315283</guid>
		<description>Davod has done a very thorough job of showing why this is a non-news story.  Charles Austin completes the picture by pointing out what normal skeptics would observe.  Bob adds the cherry on top with a description of context; non-citizen enemy combatant and how they have historically dealt with.

There is a sizable majority of Americans who reasonably believe we should not be extending constitutional protections to non-citizens.  Yet we continue to be treated to stories such as this and are expected to express outrage.  I don&#039;t get it.

Many on the right won&#039;t touch this because it&#039;s a waste of time.  Baseless accusations of torture and questions surrounding guilt.  The left jumps on this less because of human rights violations but more because it could embarrass the government.  I am tired of such nonsense.  There are more serious matters to be concerned with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Davod has done a very thorough job of showing why this is a non-news story.  Charles Austin completes the picture by pointing out what normal skeptics would observe.  Bob adds the cherry on top with a description of context; non-citizen enemy combatant and how they have historically dealt with.</p>
<p>There is a sizable majority of Americans who reasonably believe we should not be extending constitutional protections to non-citizens.  Yet we continue to be treated to stories such as this and are expected to express outrage.  I don't get it.</p>
<p>Many on the right won't touch this because it's a waste of time.  Baseless accusations of torture and questions surrounding guilt.  The left jumps on this less because of human rights violations but more because it could embarrass the government.  I am tired of such nonsense.  There are more serious matters to be concerned with.</p>
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		<title>By: davod</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315236</link>
		<dc:creator>davod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315236</guid>
		<description>I thought this was a right wing blog!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought this was a right wing blog!</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315192</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315192</guid>
		<description>What I find fascinating is the utter silence on the right so far.  Has anyone seen a right wing blog (and I do not include OTB under that label, think Powerline or Hotair or Redstate) touch this with the proverbial ten foot pole?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find fascinating is the utter silence on the right so far.  Has anyone seen a right wing blog (and I do not include OTB under that label, think Powerline or Hotair or Redstate) touch this with the proverbial ten foot pole?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315185</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315185</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’d rather live up to George Washington’s example of humane treatment and due process for prisoner’s of war. You know — the American and patriotic way of doing things.&quot;

The Washington example of humane treatment would be to hang those found conducting operations against American troops while not in uniform.  And it was done within several days, not several years.  The British example was to intern you on a British warship for years, without trial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"I&rsquo;d rather live up to George Washington&rsquo;s example of humane treatment and due process for prisoner&rsquo;s of war. You know — the American and patriotic way of doing things."</p>
<p>The Washington example of humane treatment would be to hang those found conducting operations against American troops while not in uniform.  And it was done within several days, not several years.  The British example was to intern you on a British warship for years, without trial.</p>
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		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315164</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:42:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315164</guid>
		<description>By no means do I trust our, or any, government when it comes to such matters, but some folks seem a little too anxious to accept a complaint like this without the unseemly contamination of any grains of salt.  FWIW, it&#039;s not like I&#039;m going to trust the people at CBS any more than I trust our government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By no means do I trust our, or any, government when it comes to such matters, but some folks seem a little too anxious to accept a complaint like this without the unseemly contamination of any grains of salt.  FWIW, it's not like I'm going to trust the people at CBS any more than I trust our government.</p>
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		<title>By: davod</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/comment-page-1/#comment-315129</link>
		<dc:creator>davod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/03/the_torture_of_an_innocent_man/#comment-315129</guid>
		<description>&quot;But there seemed to be ample evidence that Kurnaz was an innocent man with no connection to terrorism. The FBI thought so, U.S. intelligence thought so, and German intelligence agreed. But once he was picked up, Kurnaz found himself in a prison system that required no evidence and answered to no one.&quot;

An alternate view of Kurnaz is provided here in a 21 Jun 2007 article by John Rosenthal: Guantanamo Tales: Murat Kurnaz in the German Media.(I tried sending the link but was informed that my post was trapped in the spam filter) 

With regard to his innocence the following is included: 

&quot;Indeed, it is commonly asserted that American authorities had cleared him of all suspicion of connections to terrorism already in 2002. This claim is plainly contradicted by a 2004 Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT) ruling that on the basis of both classified and unclassified materials upheld his classification as a Qaida-linked &quot;enemy combatant.&quot;

With regard to torture:
&quot;It is striking that none of the German media here cited seek to balance their reports by obtaining comment from the U.S. military on Kurnaz&#039;s allegations. Presented by World Politics Review with a selection of Kurnaz&#039;s claims as excerpted from the Radio Bremen TV and ZDF reports, a Pentagon spokesperson dismissed them as &quot;fictitious.&quot; &quot;We should all remember,&quot; U.S. Navy Cmdr. Jeffrey D. Gordon continued, pointing to the so-called &quot;Manchester Manual&quot;,&quot;that al-Qaida training manuals encourage their members to lie, to make abuse allegations in order to garner public sympathy, whether it&#039;s for their release or even after they&#039;re gone, just to undermine the mission of what we&#039;re doing in the United States.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"But there seemed to be ample evidence that Kurnaz was an innocent man with no connection to terrorism. The FBI thought so, U.S. intelligence thought so, and German intelligence agreed. But once he was picked up, Kurnaz found himself in a prison system that required no evidence and answered to no one."</p>
<p>An alternate view of Kurnaz is provided here in a 21 Jun 2007 article by John Rosenthal: Guantanamo Tales: Murat Kurnaz in the German Media.(I tried sending the link but was informed that my post was trapped in the spam filter) </p>
<p>With regard to his innocence the following is included: </p>
<p>"Indeed, it is commonly asserted that American authorities had cleared him of all suspicion of connections to terrorism already in 2002. This claim is plainly contradicted by a 2004 Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT) ruling that on the basis of both classified and unclassified materials upheld his classification as a Qaida-linked "enemy combatant."</p>
<p>With regard to torture:<br />
"It is striking that none of the German media here cited seek to balance their reports by obtaining comment from the U.S. military on Kurnaz's allegations. Presented by World Politics Review with a selection of Kurnaz's claims as excerpted from the Radio Bremen TV and ZDF reports, a Pentagon spokesperson dismissed them as "fictitious." "We should all remember," U.S. Navy Cmdr. Jeffrey D. Gordon continued, pointing to the so-called "Manchester Manual","that al-Qaida training manuals encourage their members to lie, to make abuse allegations in order to garner public sympathy, whether it's for their release or even after they're gone, just to undermine the mission of what we're doing in the United States."</p>
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