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	<title>Comments on: Wal-Mart and Academia, Redux</title>
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		<title>By: Jon Swenson</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-72805</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-72805</guid>
		<description>Academia exploits its students in RA and TA as well as the post-doc positions.
Why do they put up with it? Jobs in industry or maybe a cushy tenure track position.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Academia exploits its students in RA and TA as well as the post-doc positions.<br />
Why do they put up with it? Jobs in industry or maybe a cushy tenure track position.</p>
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		<title>By: ICallMasICM</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71990</link>
		<dc:creator>ICallMasICM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71990</guid>
		<description>&#039;I have exactly zero years&#039; experience working as a low-level retail employee. However, based on casual observation, I would posit the following: The job offers meager pay, no autonomy, little prestige, and is physically exhausting. In sum, it frickin&#039; sucks. &#039;

Not really, some are good, some not so good. I worked a lot of different low wage jobs, not at Wal-Mart but some in retail and a lot in food service. Retail&#039;s better than food service IMHO. I never would have made it thru college without some of these jobs. The no autonomy and little prestige seems to be dependent on the specific job and in comparison to what? I can say without doubt that I&#039;ve been treated better at some low wage jobs than at some of the biggest financial institutions in the world. I&#039;m not one for saying &#039;everyone should have to do this in life&#039; but if I did the one suggestion I would make is that everyone should have to have a job serving the public because they&#039;ll learn more about people in 6 months than they would in 4 years of college or just about anywhere else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>'I have exactly zero years' experience working as a low-level retail employee. However, based on casual observation, I would posit the following: The job offers meager pay, no autonomy, little prestige, and is physically exhausting. In sum, it frickin' sucks. '</p>
<p>Not really, some are good, some not so good. I worked a lot of different low wage jobs, not at Wal-Mart but some in retail and a lot in food service. Retail's better than food service IMHO. I never would have made it thru college without some of these jobs. The no autonomy and little prestige seems to be dependent on the specific job and in comparison to what? I can say without doubt that I've been treated better at some low wage jobs than at some of the biggest financial institutions in the world. I'm not one for saying 'everyone should have to do this in life' but if I did the one suggestion I would make is that everyone should have to have a job serving the public because they'll learn more about people in 6 months than they would in 4 years of college or just about anywhere else.</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71897</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2006 22:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71897</guid>
		<description>wal mart provides nothing! wal mart&quot;s people provide the products: that&#039;s workers and managers. so why are salaries earned and wages considered theft of profit?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wal mart provides nothing! wal mart"s people provide the products: that's workers and managers. so why are salaries earned and wages considered theft of profit?</p>
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		<title>By: Don Surber</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71866</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Surber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2006 03:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71866</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m curious, when I buy a pair of undershorts, why should I pay the middleman a huge salary, a huge pension and provide health benefits that I do not enjoy?
Wal Mart is a middle man. It manufactures nothing. It stocks stuff and keeps its prices low. Having come of age during the 70s stagflation, I appreciate that.

&quot;There are ways in which academic and retail jobs are similar as well as ways in which they are different. 
&quot;Low level retail jobs at Wal-Mart are less desirable than many jobs but more desirable than some jobs--or no job. 
&quot;Undesirable jobs are often a gateway to more desirable jobs. And food.&quot;

You got it</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm curious, when I buy a pair of undershorts, why should I pay the middleman a huge salary, a huge pension and provide health benefits that I do not enjoy?<br />
Wal Mart is a middle man. It manufactures nothing. It stocks stuff and keeps its prices low. Having come of age during the 70s stagflation, I appreciate that.</p>
<p>"There are ways in which academic and retail jobs are similar as well as ways in which they are different.<br />
"Low level retail jobs at Wal-Mart are less desirable than many jobs but more desirable than some jobs--or no job.<br />
"Undesirable jobs are often a gateway to more desirable jobs. And food."</p>
<p>You got it</p>
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		<title>By: djneylon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71852</link>
		<dc:creator>djneylon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 22:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71852</guid>
		<description>Having worked retail of various types (shoe sales, major department store, building materials, furniture), let me share my experience.  Some people do make a living in retail outside management ranks.  The income proves adequate for them (that&#039;s their call to make, not ours).  All but the shoe stores  provided some level of benefits; of course since I was part time at the shoe stores and full time at the others, that could be one reason.  None of the jobs were bad (although the Al Bundy jokes wore thin when selling shoes).  If my current stiuation were different, I would consider going back to them (frankly, my pay at some of those jobs was not much lower than my current federal government job).  What every one of those jobs did woas provide income that wasn&#039;t otherwise available.  It is very nice for union leaders, social activist and academians who already have jobs to preach against low pay jobs, but frankly, I&#039;d rather get low pay than no pay (been there, done that).  And, just as a thought, how much more would they be willing to pay for things to make retail jobs better paying?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having worked retail of various types (shoe sales, major department store, building materials, furniture), let me share my experience.  Some people do make a living in retail outside management ranks.  The income proves adequate for them (that's their call to make, not ours).  All but the shoe stores  provided some level of benefits; of course since I was part time at the shoe stores and full time at the others, that could be one reason.  None of the jobs were bad (although the Al Bundy jokes wore thin when selling shoes).  If my current stiuation were different, I would consider going back to them (frankly, my pay at some of those jobs was not much lower than my current federal government job).  What every one of those jobs did woas provide income that wasn't otherwise available.  It is very nice for union leaders, social activist and academians who already have jobs to preach against low pay jobs, but frankly, I'd rather get low pay than no pay (been there, done that).  And, just as a thought, how much more would they be willing to pay for things to make retail jobs better paying?</p>
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		<title>By: G A PHILLIPS</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71851</link>
		<dc:creator>G A PHILLIPS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 21:39:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71851</guid>
		<description>Dang James, another evil conservative hatespeachmonger who quotes Monty Python. What&#039;s the world comming to. Nudgenudge, winkwink, know what I mean?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dang James, another evil conservative hatespeachmonger who quotes Monty Python. What's the world comming to. Nudgenudge, winkwink, know what I mean?</p>
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		<title>By: Emil Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71844</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 17:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71844</guid>
		<description>I really found your article and followup rather interesting, especially as a person in academia who sees the growth of postdoctoral/adjunct positions as creating a new academic working class.  Many of these full-time postdoctoral workers (especially in the sciences) are working on independent grant funding without any benefits or even institutional support.  The economics are a bit different in this case, but there are many who even with Ph.D.&#039;s cannot afford to take care of their families.  It&#039;s quite an interesting situation that academe is really supporting the growth of these non-tenure-track positions; I don&#039;t think academics aspired to these types of &quot;full time jobs&quot; at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really found your article and followup rather interesting, especially as a person in academia who sees the growth of postdoctoral/adjunct positions as creating a new academic working class.  Many of these full-time postdoctoral workers (especially in the sciences) are working on independent grant funding without any benefits or even institutional support.  The economics are a bit different in this case, but there are many who even with Ph.D.'s cannot afford to take care of their families.  It's quite an interesting situation that academe is really supporting the growth of these non-tenure-track positions; I don't think academics aspired to these types of "full time jobs" at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Just Me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71836</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 03:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71836</guid>
		<description>Another difference-most people working in Academia want full time jobs.

Many of the part timers at Wal-mart and similar retail places want part time jobs, because they are often students who don&#039;t intend to make their retail job their career.  I worked retail all through high school and college-the vast majority of people I worked with were part timers, because they didn&#039;t want more than 20 or so hours a week.  I worked 20 hours a week-because that was all I needed.

And I have to agree that anyone viewing their job as a cashier or stocker as the height of their employment goals is pretty sad-those jobs are entry level.

My husband managed a grocery store while completing his college and masters degrees.  About half the employees were high school or college students.  A hard working employee willing to move around the stores within a district could easily be in management within the first year or so of employment.  One of the guys who worked stock crew for my husband had a full time job elsewhere (union at that) and worked at the grocery for extra income.  My husband begged him to come on full time and go into management (it took the guy a couple of years and a royal screwing by his union, but he did come on).  Its been about 4 years now, and he is a district supervisor within the company and doesn&#039;t need a second job to keep his family fed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another difference-most people working in Academia want full time jobs.</p>
<p>Many of the part timers at Wal-mart and similar retail places want part time jobs, because they are often students who don't intend to make their retail job their career.  I worked retail all through high school and college-the vast majority of people I worked with were part timers, because they didn't want more than 20 or so hours a week.  I worked 20 hours a week-because that was all I needed.</p>
<p>And I have to agree that anyone viewing their job as a cashier or stocker as the height of their employment goals is pretty sad-those jobs are entry level.</p>
<p>My husband managed a grocery store while completing his college and masters degrees.  About half the employees were high school or college students.  A hard working employee willing to move around the stores within a district could easily be in management within the first year or so of employment.  One of the guys who worked stock crew for my husband had a full time job elsewhere (union at that) and worked at the grocery for extra income.  My husband begged him to come on full time and go into management (it took the guy a couple of years and a royal screwing by his union, but he did come on).  Its been about 4 years now, and he is a district supervisor within the company and doesn't need a second job to keep his family fed.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71834</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2006 02:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71834</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Does a part-time job at Victoriaâs Secret provide healthcare and retirement benefits?&lt;/i&gt;

My mom worked part time for about 6 months at a department store, and they got no benefits at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Does a part-time job at Victoriaâs Secret provide healthcare and retirement benefits?</i></p>
<p>My mom worked part time for about 6 months at a department store, and they got no benefits at all.</p>
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		<title>By: John Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71828</link>
		<dc:creator>John Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 23:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71828</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read your article on TCS in great detail because of a glaring error in economic concepts right from the beginning.  You call the labor market for professors &quot;tight&quot; when in actual economic terms it is &quot;loose.&quot;  In a &quot;tight&quot; market job seekers are price makers--the unemployment rate in that industry  is quite low and a growing economy enables the job seeker to pick and choose as he or she pleases.  I know that you are a political scientist, but you are writing on a web site devoted largely to economic issues.  You and your web site managers should try to get the basics right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven't read your article on TCS in great detail because of a glaring error in economic concepts right from the beginning.  You call the labor market for professors "tight" when in actual economic terms it is "loose."  In a "tight" market job seekers are price makers--the unemployment rate in that industry  is quite low and a growing economy enables the job seeker to pick and choose as he or she pleases.  I know that you are a political scientist, but you are writing on a web site devoted largely to economic issues.  You and your web site managers should try to get the basics right.</p>
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		<title>By: kimsch</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71827</link>
		<dc:creator>kimsch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71827</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s amazing to me how they always cite Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart alone as bad instead of the entire retail industry. Does a part-time job at Victoria&#039;s Secret provide healthcare and retirement benefits? Or The Gap, or Old Navy, or any other mall store?

The unions don&#039;t seem to be fighting to have all those jobs unionized...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's amazing to me how they always cite Wal-Mart, and Wal-Mart alone as bad instead of the entire retail industry. Does a part-time job at Victoria's Secret provide healthcare and retirement benefits? Or The Gap, or Old Navy, or any other mall store?</p>
<p>The unions don't seem to be fighting to have all those jobs unionized...</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Verdon</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71826</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Verdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71826</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And, in the grand scheme of things, most jobs suck.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Maybe this is why they call it work.  After all if was fun and exciting, it would be called &#039;fun&#039; and not &#039;work&#039;.

James, it seems it is &quot;Answer the Obvious Questions Day&quot; here at OTB.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And, in the grand scheme of things, most jobs suck.</p></blockquote>
<p>Maybe this is why they call it work.  After all if was fun and exciting, it would be called 'fun' and not 'work'.</p>
<p>James, it seems it is "Answer the Obvious Questions Day" here at OTB.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/wal-mart_and_academia_redux/comment-page-1/#comment-71823</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jan 2006 22:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/13460#comment-71823</guid>
		<description>Well, for the record, I&#039;ve both worked for Wal-Mart and worked as an academic.

The Wal-Mart job sucked, but it did pay off my credit card debt and it paid better than any of the other retail jobs I had in college.  And, in the grand scheme of things, most jobs suck.  The working conditions at Barnes and Noble were slightly better (mainly because BN&#039;s aesthetics are a bit upscale from Wal-Mart&#039;s), but the pay and benefits were worse, the dress code was more expensive, you were expected to know more (Wal-Mart at least had paid training for what you did need to know, while the answers to customers&#039; obscure book queries weren&#039;t in any manual I could find), and shelving books is pretty damn boring work.

And, unlike academe, nobody should be making a career out of working at Wal-Mart, for the reasons you articulate.  With the exception of management, I&#039;m pretty sure nobody does.  Most everyone I knew there was in school part-time or full-time, which they couldn&#039;t have done without the income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, for the record, I've both worked for Wal-Mart and worked as an academic.</p>
<p>The Wal-Mart job sucked, but it did pay off my credit card debt and it paid better than any of the other retail jobs I had in college.  And, in the grand scheme of things, most jobs suck.  The working conditions at Barnes and Noble were slightly better (mainly because BN's aesthetics are a bit upscale from Wal-Mart's), but the pay and benefits were worse, the dress code was more expensive, you were expected to know more (Wal-Mart at least had paid training for what you did need to know, while the answers to customers' obscure book queries weren't in any manual I could find), and shelving books is pretty damn boring work.</p>
<p>And, unlike academe, nobody should be making a career out of working at Wal-Mart, for the reasons you articulate.  With the exception of management, I'm pretty sure nobody does.  Most everyone I knew there was in school part-time or full-time, which they couldn't have done without the income.</p>
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