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	<title>Comments on: Why Don&#8217;t More People Go to College?</title>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361830</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 21:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361830</guid>
		<description>JMO;
    My point is that clear goals and diligence 
 will overcome any difference in the source of education.*
 1]Professional jobs currently require more formal education.
 2] Skilled crafts require more training
 3]Managerial jobs require more.....well we know what they require![grinz]
 4] The problem is that virtually ALL of the &quot;dropouts&quot; and failures fall statistically on the NON-degreed side of the equation.
 5] Personal success requires education, formal or otherwise! 
 6] When corrected for diligence and vision, the success rates measured in dollars would narrow.*


*source... pure conjecture, observation and common sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JMO;<br />
    My point is that clear goals and diligence<br />
 will overcome any difference in the source of education.*<br />
 1]Professional jobs currently require more formal education.<br />
 2] Skilled crafts require more training<br />
 3]Managerial jobs require more.....well we know what they require![grinz]<br />
 4] The problem is that virtually ALL of the "dropouts" and failures fall statistically on the NON-degreed side of the equation.<br />
 5] Personal success requires education, formal or otherwise!<br />
 6] When corrected for diligence and vision, the success rates measured in dollars would narrow.*</p>
<p>*source... pure conjecture, observation and common sense.</p>
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		<title>By: jmo</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361777</link>
		<dc:creator>jmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 21:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361777</guid>
		<description>Floyd,

Take a look at the census data - workers who work in &quot;Precision, Production, Craft, and Repair Occupations&quot; aka &quot;The Trades&quot; have seen their inflation adjusted income stangnate since 1982.

Those in &quot;Managerial and Professional Speciality Occupations&quot; have seen their incomes rise significantly.  

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/p45.html

I think if you look at the data, the idea that the trades are doing well just isn&#039;t borne out by the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Floyd,</p>
<p>Take a look at the census data - workers who work in "Precision, Production, Craft, and Repair Occupations" aka "The Trades" have seen their inflation adjusted income stangnate since 1982.</p>
<p>Those in "Managerial and Professional Speciality Occupations" have seen their incomes rise significantly.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/p45.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/p45.html</a></p>
<p>I think if you look at the data, the idea that the trades are doing well just isn't borne out by the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: G.A.Phillips</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361765</link>
		<dc:creator>G.A.Phillips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 20:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361765</guid>
		<description>I know lots of welders, electricians, and mechanics who make over $35,000 without overtime but they don&#039;t have to vote Democrat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know lots of welders, electricians, and mechanics who make over $35,000 without overtime but they don't have to vote Democrat.</p>
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		<title>By: jmo</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361756</link>
		<dc:creator>jmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 20:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361756</guid>
		<description>floyd, 

I&#039;m not saying that there aren&#039;t guys in the trades making 100k, I&#039;m saying that over the past 30 years the income gap has grown between those in the trades and those with a college education.

Do you think that isn&#039;t the case?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>floyd, </p>
<p>I'm not saying that there aren't guys in the trades making 100k, I'm saying that over the past 30 years the income gap has grown between those in the trades and those with a college education.</p>
<p>Do you think that isn't the case?</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361740</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 20:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361740</guid>
		<description>JMO;
   No need to change my mind. I refer you to my caveat.
   I know lots of welders, electricians, and mechanics who make over $75,000 without overtime.
Most of these guys make six figures every year.
So would your plumber if he called himself a pipefitter.[lol]
 Does that change your mind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JMO;<br />
   No need to change my mind. I refer you to my caveat.<br />
   I know lots of welders, electricians, and mechanics who make over $75,000 without overtime.<br />
Most of these guys make six figures every year.<br />
So would your plumber if he called himself a pipefitter.[lol]<br />
 Does that change your mind?</p>
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		<title>By: John425</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361708</link>
		<dc:creator>John425</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 20:18:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361708</guid>
		<description>Denigrating the &quot;trades&quot; as they used to be called, is the fault of the Teachers Unions and Academia in general. Curiously, though-a good plumber makes $40 an hour and a teacher makes $40K a year. I may need a plumber in the middle of the night, but I won&#039;t need a teacher in the middle of the night.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Denigrating the "trades" as they used to be called, is the fault of the Teachers Unions and Academia in general. Curiously, though-a good plumber makes $40 an hour and a teacher makes $40K a year. I may need a plumber in the middle of the night, but I won't need a teacher in the middle of the night.</p>
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		<title>By: just me</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361699</link>
		<dc:creator>just me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 20:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361699</guid>
		<description>I think the type of degree makes a difference.

Some degrees don&#039;t have the big a return, others do.

I think the real question isn&#039;t why more aren&#039;t going but whether college is the right route to meet their interests and goals. In the town I live in, the plumber makes almost 100k a year, because he is one of the only ones in the area.

We are friends with a guy who runs a car shop, and he struggles to find qualified mechanics.  At his shop a fully qualified mechanic makes more per year than a certified teacher with a few years experience under their belts makes in this area.

Supply and demand has a lot to do with just how much salary a person can command.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the type of degree makes a difference.</p>
<p>Some degrees don't have the big a return, others do.</p>
<p>I think the real question isn't why more aren't going but whether college is the right route to meet their interests and goals. In the town I live in, the plumber makes almost 100k a year, because he is one of the only ones in the area.</p>
<p>We are friends with a guy who runs a car shop, and he struggles to find qualified mechanics.  At his shop a fully qualified mechanic makes more per year than a certified teacher with a few years experience under their belts makes in this area.</p>
<p>Supply and demand has a lot to do with just how much salary a person can command.</p>
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		<title>By: Ivan</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361648</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 19:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361648</guid>
		<description>Reading the comments above with the &quot;what&#039;s so special about a college degree&quot; attitude reinforces my belief that immigrants keep this country afloat: first generation immigrants who appreciate that US is still very much the land of opportunities. These people work hard, graduate from top institutions: Yale, Duke, etc. and accomplish their American dream.
 And then you have Billy Bob with his sixpack, NASCAR, country music and disdain for intellectuals, liberals, and anybody who isn&#039;t like him. Thank god Billy Bob will forever be resigned to enjoying the &quot;bread and the circuses&quot; and nothing more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading the comments above with the "what's so special about a college degree" attitude reinforces my belief that immigrants keep this country afloat: first generation immigrants who appreciate that US is still very much the land of opportunities. These people work hard, graduate from top institutions: Yale, Duke, etc. and accomplish their American dream.<br />
 And then you have Billy Bob with his sixpack, NASCAR, country music and disdain for intellectuals, liberals, and anybody who isn't like him. Thank god Billy Bob will forever be resigned to enjoying the "bread and the circuses" and nothing more.</p>
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		<title>By: jmo</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361607</link>
		<dc:creator>jmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 18:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361607</guid>
		<description>floyd,


&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Certification=Certified_Public_Accountant_(CPA)/Salary&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Salary of Senior Accountant $58,559&lt;/a&gt;


&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Master_Plumber/Hourly_Rate&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Salary of Master Plumber $48,440&lt;/a&gt;

Now, the interesting question would be to find out the average salary of a Senior Accountant vs. Master Plumber in 2008, 1998, 1988, 1978, 1968.  Now, if we see a growing gap between the two would that change your mind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>floyd,</p>
<p><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Certification=Certified_Public_Accountant_(CPA)/Salary" rel="nofollow">Salary of Senior Accountant $58,559</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Master_Plumber/Hourly_Rate" rel="nofollow">Salary of Master Plumber $48,440</a></p>
<p>Now, the interesting question would be to find out the average salary of a Senior Accountant vs. Master Plumber in 2008, 1998, 1988, 1978, 1968.  Now, if we see a growing gap between the two would that change your mind?</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361572</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 18:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361572</guid>
		<description>JMO;
   Perhaps, but what about &quot;back in the day&quot;if you partied all through high school and eventually partied all through college , taking 6 years to get a degree, you would spend x to make 2x. If you studied and worked hard all through high school and beyond to learn a skill or to develop a business you could make 2x or even 4x without spending x in time or money for college.
Perhaps the real difference is not the diploma , but rather as you say &quot;that 10% more effort that is required for success regardless of classroom hours or sheepskins.

 BTW; don&#039;t forget my caveat. [The type of degree]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JMO;<br />
   Perhaps, but what about "back in the day"if you partied all through high school and eventually partied all through college , taking 6 years to get a degree, you would spend x to make 2x. If you studied and worked hard all through high school and beyond to learn a skill or to develop a business you could make 2x or even 4x without spending x in time or money for college.<br />
Perhaps the real difference is not the diploma , but rather as you say "that 10% more effort that is required for success regardless of classroom hours or sheepskins.</p>
<p> BTW; don't forget my caveat. [The type of degree]</p>
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		<title>By: charles austin</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361570</link>
		<dc:creator>charles austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 18:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361570</guid>
		<description>It is a little bit of a shame to see college degrees discussed primarily as a vocational certificate, no matter the field.  There was a time, not that long ago, when one of the reasons for going to college was to learn to think and to become a well rounded individual, in addition to preparing to enter your vocation, whatever that turned out to be.

At the same time, the No Child Left Unmatriculated program swung the pendulum way too far and colleges reacted by increasing the price to what the market would bear.  Now the bear is biting back.  It would have cost as much as I paid to buy my house (which is far from paid off) to send my daughter to one particular state school she was considering.  That&#039;s a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a little bit of a shame to see college degrees discussed primarily as a vocational certificate, no matter the field.  There was a time, not that long ago, when one of the reasons for going to college was to learn to think and to become a well rounded individual, in addition to preparing to enter your vocation, whatever that turned out to be.</p>
<p>At the same time, the No Child Left Unmatriculated program swung the pendulum way too far and colleges reacted by increasing the price to what the market would bear.  Now the bear is biting back.  It would have cost as much as I paid to buy my house (which is far from paid off) to send my daughter to one particular state school she was considering.  That's a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Schuler</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361556</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Schuler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 18:05:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361556</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
But all the evidence is that a diploma is far more valuable than it used to be.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Perhaps because that&#039;s not what the evidence says.  What the evidence says is that &lt;b&gt;some&lt;/b&gt; diplomas are worth a lot more than they used to be.  The evidence doesn&#039;t demonstrate that &lt;b&gt;all&lt;/b&gt; diplomas are worth more than they used to be nor does it demonstrate that the diplomas are worth more are worth more because they are diplomas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
But all the evidence is that a diploma is far more valuable than it used to be.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Perhaps because that's not what the evidence says.  What the evidence says is that <b>some</b> diplomas are worth a lot more than they used to be.  The evidence doesn't demonstrate that <b>all</b> diplomas are worth more than they used to be nor does it demonstrate that the diplomas are worth more are worth more because they are diplomas.</p>
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		<title>By: DC Loser</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361525</link>
		<dc:creator>DC Loser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 17:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361525</guid>
		<description>If a young person likes to work with his or her hands, get an apprenticeship as a plumber/carpenter/electrician.  From what they&#039;re charging, I KNOW they make more than a lot of college graduates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a young person likes to work with his or her hands, get an apprenticeship as a plumber/carpenter/electrician.  From what they're charging, I KNOW they make more than a lot of college graduates.</p>
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		<title>By: jmo</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361517</link>
		<dc:creator>jmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 17:32:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361517</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps a diploma is no longer the &quot;ticket&quot; to secure lucrative employment that it once was.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But all the evidence is that a diploma is far more valuable than it used to be.  However, for some reason, people don&#039;t want to accept that. 

I think we need to look at the marginal case.  Back in the day if you partied through High School and eventually dropped out and took a job at the plant, you could make X.  If you studied and worked hard and made it through High School and College you could make 2X.  Now, that is up to 4X or 6X.  However, at the margin, the guy who could, with perhapse 10% more effort, get a degree, still won&#039;t work that extra 10%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Perhaps a diploma is no longer the "ticket" to secure lucrative employment that it once was.</p></blockquote>
<p>But all the evidence is that a diploma is far more valuable than it used to be.  However, for some reason, people don't want to accept that. </p>
<p>I think we need to look at the marginal case.  Back in the day if you partied through High School and eventually dropped out and took a job at the plant, you could make X.  If you studied and worked hard and made it through High School and College you could make 2X.  Now, that is up to 4X or 6X.  However, at the margin, the guy who could, with perhapse 10% more effort, get a degree, still won't work that extra 10%.</p>
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		<title>By: floyd</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/comment-page-1/#comment-361481</link>
		<dc:creator>floyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 17:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/05/why_dont_more_people_go_to_college/#comment-361481</guid>
		<description>This article contains the same subtle bias as the earlier article titled &quot;Working Man&#039;s PHD&quot;, except sort of reversed.
 The umbrage taken in that article was that &quot;educated&quot; people don&#039;t work.
 In this article, it is that those who do not attend college are uneducated.  
 These assumptions are equally untrue. In fact it is quite possible to be well educated without college or to remain uneducated with a degree.

 Perhaps a diploma is no longer the &quot;ticket&quot; to secure lucrative employment that it once was.
 The non-college worker gets a four year head start in Career development without the accumulation of debt associated with formal education. Even an associates degree allows for a two year head start at a fraction of the debt.

Medicine and engineering are examples of a valid use of &quot;higher education&quot;. Seeking other degrees [in areas like &quot;liberal arts&quot;] has been slipping ever closer to a frivolous use of &quot;higher education&quot; in recent years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article contains the same subtle bias as the earlier article titled "Working Man's PHD", except sort of reversed.<br />
 The umbrage taken in that article was that "educated" people don't work.<br />
 In this article, it is that those who do not attend college are uneducated.<br />
 These assumptions are equally untrue. In fact it is quite possible to be well educated without college or to remain uneducated with a degree.</p>
<p> Perhaps a diploma is no longer the "ticket" to secure lucrative employment that it once was.<br />
 The non-college worker gets a four year head start in Career development without the accumulation of debt associated with formal education. Even an associates degree allows for a two year head start at a fraction of the debt.</p>
<p>Medicine and engineering are examples of a valid use of "higher education". Seeking other degrees [in areas like "liberal arts"] has been slipping ever closer to a frivolous use of "higher education" in recent years.</p>
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