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	<title>Comments on: Will Obama Keep His Word Today?</title>
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		<title>By: Taking It On The Chin, Like A Man &#124; BFD Blog!</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1024078</link>
		<dc:creator>Taking It On The Chin, Like A Man &#124; BFD Blog!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...]  Will Obama Keep His Word Today?  (outsidethebeltway.com) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Will Obama Keep His Word Today?  (outsidethebeltway.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Taking It On The Chin, Like A Man : The Sirens Chronicles</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1024073</link>
		<dc:creator>Taking It On The Chin, Like A Man : The Sirens Chronicles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:50:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...]  Will Obama Keep His Word Today?  (outsidethebeltway.com) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Will Obama Keep His Word Today?  (outsidethebeltway.com) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1023477</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 06:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1023477</guid>
		<description>You know if I was feeling suspicious I might guess that the memos were timed to be released just after the tea parties.  The question of &quot;
will he-won&#039;t he&quot; means they are sure to generate a buzz, and the overall issue immediately recalls the right&#039;s biggest millstone (Bush) the day after their big power play.

If it was planned it was a nice bit of political juijitsu.  If coincidence then it has to sting for the tea party boosters to have the news cycle they worked so hard to manufacture cut short by fate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know if I was feeling suspicious I might guess that the memos were timed to be released just after the tea parties.  The question of "<br />
will he-won't he" means they are sure to generate a buzz, and the overall issue immediately recalls the right's biggest millstone (Bush) the day after their big power play.</p>
<p>If it was planned it was a nice bit of political juijitsu.  If coincidence then it has to sting for the tea party boosters to have the news cycle they worked so hard to manufacture cut short by fate.</p>
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		<title>By: Our Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1023373</link>
		<dc:creator>Our Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 03:22:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1023373</guid>
		<description>The torture memos have been released and can be found at at this ACLU &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;site.&lt;/a&gt;

They are redacted in places, but fully readable on my brief scan. They sure do not cover the participants with glory.

&lt;strong&gt;Memeorandum&lt;/strong&gt; is lighting up the blogosphere. The primary link is to the ACLU site indexed in my first paragraph, and it contains 17 blog references. There are 14 &lt;strong&gt;Related&lt;/strong&gt; points of entry listed, with of course the usual suspects listed as blog references.

As an East Coast Man, time for me to go to bed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The torture memos have been released and can be found at at this ACLU <a href="http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html" rel="nofollow">site.</a></p>
<p>They are redacted in places, but fully readable on my brief scan. They sure do not cover the participants with glory.</p>
<p><strong>Memeorandum</strong> is lighting up the blogosphere. The primary link is to the ACLU site indexed in my first paragraph, and it contains 17 blog references. There are 14 <strong>Related</strong> points of entry listed, with of course the usual suspects listed as blog references.</p>
<p>As an East Coast Man, time for me to go to bed.</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1023335</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Apr 2009 02:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1023335</guid>
		<description>Looks like they were released with minimal redacting.  Good for Obama.  It was the right thing to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like they were released with minimal redacting.  Good for Obama.  It was the right thing to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Our Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1023014</link>
		<dc:creator>Our Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1023014</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your prompt reply, &lt;strong&gt;Alex&lt;/strong&gt; (April 16, 2009 &#124; 12:48 pm). Lost in the haze of the torture controversy is the issue of abuse, which you briefly address in the last sentence of your post as “ill-treatment of prisoners”.

And there my friend, lies the problem. If we sweep torture under the table, we do not have to think of abuse. The past administration’s torture memos which detailed the attempt to define torture, bring with them on stage, the permission to abuse.

If you discuss, for example the treatment of Padilla, no one can argue that he was maintained in almost total sensory deprivation state. Blindfolded and ear-muffed when he left his cell, for all we know his solitary confinement continues today.  Finer minds than mine can devote themselves to defining whether this type of confinement constitutes torture. Bradbury and Bybee apparently did. I for one would like to see how they reached their conclusion, and how they skirted the issue of prisoner abuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your prompt reply, <strong>Alex</strong> (April 16, 2009 | 12:48 pm). Lost in the haze of the torture controversy is the issue of abuse, which you briefly address in the last sentence of your post as “ill-treatment of prisoners”.</p>
<p>And there my friend, lies the problem. If we sweep torture under the table, we do not have to think of abuse. The past administration&rsquo;s torture memos which detailed the attempt to define torture, bring with them on stage, the permission to abuse.</p>
<p>If you discuss, for example the treatment of Padilla, no one can argue that he was maintained in almost total sensory deprivation state. Blindfolded and ear-muffed when he left his cell, for all we know his solitary confinement continues today.  Finer minds than mine can devote themselves to defining whether this type of confinement constitutes torture. Bradbury and Bybee apparently did. I for one would like to see how they reached their conclusion, and how they skirted the issue of prisoner abuse.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1023013</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The documents are available on the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ACLU site&lt;/a&gt; in pdf format.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The documents are available on the <a href="http://www.aclu.org/safefree/general/olc_memos.html" rel="nofollow">ACLU site</a> in pdf format.</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1023007</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 21:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1023007</guid>
		<description>Apparently Obama has released the memos but I haven&#039;t heard how heavily redacted they might be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently Obama has released the memos but I haven't heard how heavily redacted they might be.</p>
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		<title>By: PD Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1022976</link>
		<dc:creator>PD Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 20:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1022976</guid>
		<description>Looks like the issue is moot now.  To be clear, I don&#039;t question Obama&#039;s authority to release the memos, just his judgment.  Now we can wait for future President Palin to release memos to embarrass the Obama administration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like the issue is moot now.  To be clear, I don't question Obama's authority to release the memos, just his judgment.  Now we can wait for future President Palin to release memos to embarrass the Obama administration.</p>
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		<title>By: PD Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1022927</link>
		<dc:creator>PD Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:18:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1022927</guid>
		<description>Alex:

This is from the  OLC description of its role quoted by Greenwald:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Most OLC opinions consist of confidential legal advice for senior Executive Branch officials. Maintaining the confidentiality of OLC opinions is often necessary to preserve the deliberative process of decisionmaking within the Executive Branch and attorney-client relationships between OLC and other executive offices; in some cases, the disclosure of OLC advice also may interfere with federal law enforcement efforts. These confidentiality interests are especially great for OLC opinions relating to the President’s exercise of his constitutional authorities, including his authority as Commander in Chief. It is critical to the discharge of the President’s constitutional responsibilities that he and the officials under his supervision are able to receive confidential legal advice from OLC.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/best-practices-memo.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;LINK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex:</p>
<p>This is from the  OLC description of its role quoted by Greenwald:</p>
<blockquote><p>Most OLC opinions consist of confidential legal advice for senior Executive Branch officials. Maintaining the confidentiality of OLC opinions is often necessary to preserve the deliberative process of decisionmaking within the Executive Branch and attorney-client relationships between OLC and other executive offices; in some cases, the disclosure of OLC advice also may interfere with federal law enforcement efforts. These confidentiality interests are especially great for OLC opinions relating to the President&rsquo;s exercise of his constitutional authorities, including his authority as Commander in Chief. It is critical to the discharge of the President&rsquo;s constitutional responsibilities that he and the officials under his supervision are able to receive confidential legal advice from OLC.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/best-practices-memo.pdf" rel="nofollow">LINK</a></p>
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		<title>By: Alex Knapp</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1022907</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Knapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:47:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1022907</guid>
		<description>PD -

The Executive Branch is &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; the client of the United States government, and so no attorney-client privlege exists, as I understand it.  OLC memos are, in fact, routinely published and available on their website:

http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/opinions.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PD -</p>
<p>The Executive Branch is <i>not</i> the client of the United States government, and so no attorney-client privlege exists, as I understand it.  OLC memos are, in fact, routinely published and available on their website:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/opinions.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/opinions.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: PD Shaw</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1022906</link>
		<dc:creator>PD Shaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1022906</guid>
		<description>Perhaps Alex you could direct me to a discussion of these issues with a little less of Greenwald&#039;s hyperbole.  OLC opinions are generally confidential, even when they don&#039;t deal with issues of national security.  I think legal confidentiality is important and waiving it has high decision-making costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Alex you could direct me to a discussion of these issues with a little less of Greenwald's hyperbole.  OLC opinions are generally confidential, even when they don't deal with issues of national security.  I think legal confidentiality is important and waiving it has high decision-making costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Tlaloc</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1022898</link>
		<dc:creator>Tlaloc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1022898</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;What incentives does that give future Presidents?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think it gives them an excellent incentive not to, you know, commit war crimes.

Wait, you think that&#039;s a &lt;em&gt;bad&lt;/em&gt; thing?

Huh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>What incentives does that give future Presidents?</p></blockquote>
<p>I think it gives them an excellent incentive not to, you know, commit war crimes.</p>
<p>Wait, you think that's a <em>bad</em> thing?</p>
<p>Huh.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Knapp</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1022892</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Knapp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1022892</guid>
		<description>PD -

&lt;blockquote&gt;These appear to be opinions of lawyers. Gather enough lawyers in a room and you&#039;ll have a roomful of opinions.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Not quite.  The OLC provides advice for the executive branch, and basically sets &quot;precedent&quot; as to policy.  Executive branch agencies act in accordance with those opinions unless they are countermanded by an Act of Congress, a court ruling, or Executive Order.  So the memos do have legal signficance.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Are you ready, in the future, to support disbarment or war crime prosecution of Bradbury and Bybee? Or at that point will the ye old fig leaf that advising the President incorrectly is a “mistake”, and not a crime, be trotted out? &lt;/blockquote&gt;If it can be shown that lawyers in the OLC acted contrary to the codes of professional ethics under which they should follow, then yes, I would support disciplinary action up to and including disbarment.  If their actions in crafting executive branch policy is prosecutable under existing Federal laws against torture and ill-treatment of prisoners then yes, I would support their prosecution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PD -</p>
<blockquote><p>These appear to be opinions of lawyers. Gather enough lawyers in a room and you'll have a roomful of opinions.</p></blockquote>
<p>Not quite.  The OLC provides advice for the executive branch, and basically sets "precedent" as to policy.  Executive branch agencies act in accordance with those opinions unless they are countermanded by an Act of Congress, a court ruling, or Executive Order.  So the memos do have legal signficance.</p>
<blockquote><p>Are you ready, in the future, to support disbarment or war crime prosecution of Bradbury and Bybee? Or at that point will the ye old fig leaf that advising the President incorrectly is a “mistake”, and not a crime, be trotted out? </p></blockquote>
<p>If it can be shown that lawyers in the OLC acted contrary to the codes of professional ethics under which they should follow, then yes, I would support disciplinary action up to and including disbarment.  If their actions in crafting executive branch policy is prosecutable under existing Federal laws against torture and ill-treatment of prisoners then yes, I would support their prosecution.</p>
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		<title>By: Our Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/will_obama_keep_his_word_today/comment-page-1/#comment-1022882</link>
		<dc:creator>Our Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=34809#comment-1022882</guid>
		<description>Tell me Alex, are you walking both sides of the street, or you willing to follow brother Glenn Greenwald side of the street to his logical concluding end? To quote from Greenwald’s blog: &lt;blockquote&gt;To the contrary:  they were written by DOJ lawyers -- specifically, OLC chief Steven Bradbury and then-OLC Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee.  They are not &quot;intelligence reports&quot; from the field.  They are, by definition -- by their very nature -- nothing more than decrees about what is and is not legal…&lt;/blockquote&gt; Are you ready, in the future, to support disbarment or war crime prosecution of Bradbury and Bybee? Or at that point will the ye old fig leaf that advising the President incorrectly is a “mistake”, and not a crime, be trotted out? 

Do you approve of the Republican Senator’s threat to filibuster and tie up the Senate if DOJ investigates the torture issue for prosecution? They already have held up Dawn Johnson’s OLC appointment because of her support in lancing this festering wound of torture one the American character.

I join Robert Service’s omniscient observer commenting in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geocities.com/heartland/bluffs/8336/robertservice/shooting.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Shooting of Dan McGrew&lt;/a&gt; &lt;i&gt; that I am not wise as these lawyer guys, but strictly between us two&lt;/i&gt;, the torture memo’s will be released, but names will be redacted. You do not open a new battle front, when you have an intractable group of patriots with no wishes to compromise, or seek solutions to our multiple problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tell me Alex, are you walking both sides of the street, or you willing to follow brother Glenn Greenwald side of the street to his logical concluding end? To quote from Greenwald&rsquo;s blog:<br />
<blockquote>To the contrary:  they were written by DOJ lawyers -- specifically, OLC chief Steven Bradbury and then-OLC Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee.  They are not "intelligence reports" from the field.  They are, by definition -- by their very nature -- nothing more than decrees about what is and is not legal…</p></blockquote>
<p> Are you ready, in the future, to support disbarment or war crime prosecution of Bradbury and Bybee? Or at that point will the ye old fig leaf that advising the President incorrectly is a “mistake”, and not a crime, be trotted out? </p>
<p>Do you approve of the Republican Senator&rsquo;s threat to filibuster and tie up the Senate if DOJ investigates the torture issue for prosecution? They already have held up Dawn Johnson&rsquo;s OLC appointment because of her support in lancing this festering wound of torture one the American character.</p>
<p>I join Robert Service&rsquo;s omniscient observer commenting in the <a href="http://www.geocities.com/heartland/bluffs/8336/robertservice/shooting.html" rel="nofollow">Shooting of Dan McGrew</a> <i> that I am not wise as these lawyer guys, but strictly between us two</i>, the torture memo&rsquo;s will be released, but names will be redacted. You do not open a new battle front, when you have an intractable group of patriots with no wishes to compromise, or seek solutions to our multiple problems.</p>
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