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	<title>Comments on: Zogby: Americans Support Impeachment if Bush Lied about Iraq Intel</title>
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	<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/</link>
	<description>Online Journal of Politics and Foreign Affairs</description>
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		<title>By: Musing &#187; To those who claim &#8220;Bush lied&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-64330</link>
		<dc:creator>Musing &#187; To those who claim &#8220;Bush lied&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2005 05:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-64330</guid>
		<description>[...] I&#8217;ve said it before, but the recent resurgence of the &#8220;Bush lied&#8221; meme, comments here by the moonbat fringe (and their attempts to paint the Libby indictment as a broader indictment of the Bush administration), the drumbeat to start impeachment proceedings, and the speech today by an invigorated (finally!) G.W. Bush encouraged me to return to the theme. Even if only quickly. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I&#8217;ve said it before, but the recent resurgence of the &#8220;Bush lied&#8221; meme, comments here by the moonbat fringe (and their attempts to paint the Libby indictment as a broader indictment of the Bush administration), the drumbeat to start impeachment proceedings, and the speech today by an invigorated (finally!) G.W. Bush encouraged me to return to the theme. Even if only quickly. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63624</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 23:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63624</guid>
		<description>The only cheese I like comes from France. Port Salut is excellent. Herb, you sound like a  velveeta man.

I will vote GOP again when they run someone with an IQ over 90 who did not refuse to take a mandatory physical during wartime, then hide behind his daddy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only cheese I like comes from France. Port Salut is excellent. Herb, you sound like a  velveeta man.</p>
<p>I will vote GOP again when they run someone with an IQ over 90 who did not refuse to take a mandatory physical during wartime, then hide behind his daddy.</p>
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		<title>By: Herb</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63618</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 22:33:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63618</guid>
		<description>Anjin San

WOW I am impressed. At least you did one thing right (Voting for Reagan)

Now if you just work a little harder, you just might vote for a Rep. again.

Whould you like some cheese?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anjin San</p>
<p>WOW I am impressed. At least you did one thing right (Voting for Reagan)</p>
<p>Now if you just work a little harder, you just might vote for a Rep. again.</p>
<p>Whould you like some cheese?</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63610</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63610</guid>
		<description>Herb,

No one is impressed that you were a REMF once upon a time...

You don&#039;t have the guts to answer a straight question, and you basically whine like a little kid.

If I am so &quot;liberal&quot; why did I vote for Reagan twice?

Don&#039;t strain yourself trying to figure it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Herb,</p>
<p>No one is impressed that you were a REMF once upon a time...</p>
<p>You don't have the guts to answer a straight question, and you basically whine like a little kid.</p>
<p>If I am so "liberal" why did I vote for Reagan twice?</p>
<p>Don't strain yourself trying to figure it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Herb</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63604</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 19:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63604</guid>
		<description>Anjin San

I served my country in the Armed Forces of the US.  

DID YOU?

Your &quot;High and Mighty&quot; attitude along with your elevated intellegence ego just don&#039;t get here. I have dealt with guys like you on many many occasions and you are all alike. All mouth and very little brains to go along with it. 

You guys are all alike, you only think you know America and Americans, but you liberal foriegn attitudes and ways only show everyone just how little you do know about America and Americans

Again Anjin:   STUFF IT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anjin San</p>
<p>I served my country in the Armed Forces of the US.  </p>
<p>DID YOU?</p>
<p>Your "High and Mighty" attitude along with your elevated intellegence ego just don't get here. I have dealt with guys like you on many many occasions and you are all alike. All mouth and very little brains to go along with it. </p>
<p>You guys are all alike, you only think you know America and Americans, but you liberal foriegn attitudes and ways only show everyone just how little you do know about America and Americans</p>
<p>Again Anjin:   STUFF IT</p>
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		<title>By: exdem13</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63598</link>
		<dc:creator>exdem13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 19:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63598</guid>
		<description>Funny, I never got contacted by Zogby for this poll. Of ocurse, I live in the middle of Ohio (red state) and I think Bush didn&#039;t lie to us about anything. I think he was truthful about the war, and that his administration has been doing fine. If there is any &quot;lie&quot; involved, it is the recent bout of lies told by treacherous, backbiting CIA flakes left over from the Clinton days who want to stop a war they don&#039;t like. Ditto for all the anti-warllying statements by Democratic politicians who knew that Saddam had WMD in 1998, knew Saddam had WMD in 2002, but who promptly forgot about it in 2003 to try to get some votes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny, I never got contacted by Zogby for this poll. Of ocurse, I live in the middle of Ohio (red state) and I think Bush didn't lie to us about anything. I think he was truthful about the war, and that his administration has been doing fine. If there is any "lie" involved, it is the recent bout of lies told by treacherous, backbiting CIA flakes left over from the Clinton days who want to stop a war they don't like. Ditto for all the anti-warllying statements by Democratic politicians who knew that Saddam had WMD in 1998, knew Saddam had WMD in 2002, but who promptly forgot about it in 2003 to try to get some votes.</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63593</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63593</guid>
		<description>Charlie,

You do make a point. If it was just Bush&#039;s opinion that Brown was taking care of business while he was in fact, presiding over a train wreck while he was busy bragging about his wardrobe and feeling sorry for himself (mind you, this is while Americans were dying) then Bush is simply an incompent hack who is in way over his head, and not , in this case at least, a liar.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie,</p>
<p>You do make a point. If it was just Bush's opinion that Brown was taking care of business while he was in fact, presiding over a train wreck while he was busy bragging about his wardrobe and feeling sorry for himself (mind you, this is while Americans were dying) then Bush is simply an incompent hack who is in way over his head, and not , in this case at least, a liar.</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63592</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 18:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63592</guid>
		<description>What is &quot;your&quot; America about Herb? Sending kids to die in Iraq to deal with phantom WMD? While your sorry ass sits as home? 

I guess in whatever universe you inhabit it is a state official&#039;s fault if Bush appoints an incopetent hack to a critical position in the federal government.

As I suspected you have nither the courage or the intelligence to answer a straight question. Go put Rush on, he will tell you what you think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is "your" America about Herb? Sending kids to die in Iraq to deal with phantom WMD? While your sorry ass sits as home? </p>
<p>I guess in whatever universe you inhabit it is a state official's fault if Bush appoints an incopetent hack to a critical position in the federal government.</p>
<p>As I suspected you have nither the courage or the intelligence to answer a straight question. Go put Rush on, he will tell you what you think.</p>
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		<title>By: odograph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63581</link>
		<dc:creator>odograph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63581</guid>
		<description>Charlie, we won&#039;t really know until (or if) all information becomes available.  I&#039;ve said that there is a &quot;plausible arc&quot; from the Downing Street Memos to the Plame outing and attempted cover up.  I think there is.

Could all that &quot;fixing&quot; and &quot;covering&quot; have somehow done that &quot;honestly?&quot;

I don&#039;t really think so.  It is reported that the Vice President made many (a dozen?) trips to the CIA offices asking specifically for information proving that Iraq had WMDs.  Or proving that Iraq had an Al-Queda connection.

Anybody who has worked in any kind of bureaucracy knows what happens when you do that.  If a powerful player repeatedly asks, not for a fair assessment, but a specific result ... someone will give it to him.  It may be a sycophant who just wishes to climb in power, or it may be that a selection process takes place (out of ten guys in the room, nine stay quiet, and the one guy who agrees speaks up).

A powerful player who does that, therefore, is either really dumb, or is building (broadly speaking) a &quot;lie.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie, we won't really know until (or if) all information becomes available.  I've said that there is a "plausible arc" from the Downing Street Memos to the Plame outing and attempted cover up.  I think there is.</p>
<p>Could all that "fixing" and "covering" have somehow done that "honestly?"</p>
<p>I don't really think so.  It is reported that the Vice President made many (a dozen?) trips to the CIA offices asking specifically for information proving that Iraq had WMDs.  Or proving that Iraq had an Al-Queda connection.</p>
<p>Anybody who has worked in any kind of bureaucracy knows what happens when you do that.  If a powerful player repeatedly asks, not for a fair assessment, but a specific result ... someone will give it to him.  It may be a sycophant who just wishes to climb in power, or it may be that a selection process takes place (out of ten guys in the room, nine stay quiet, and the one guy who agrees speaks up).</p>
<p>A powerful player who does that, therefore, is either really dumb, or is building (broadly speaking) a "lie."</p>
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		<title>By: odograph</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63572</link>
		<dc:creator>odograph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 15:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63572</guid>
		<description>Ken and bruhaha, I used the word &quot;supposition&quot; which maybe you need to look up.

Beyond that ... the way to get the &lt;b&gt;&quot;proof&quot;&lt;/b&gt; you ask for is to get a full investigation into the intelligence handling at the start of the war.  I support that, do you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken and bruhaha, I used the word "supposition" which maybe you need to look up.</p>
<p>Beyond that ... the way to get the <b>"proof"</b> you ask for is to get a full investigation into the intelligence handling at the start of the war.  I support that, do you?</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63569</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 15:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63569</guid>
		<description>James:  &quot;Odo: Sure. But theyâve been subjected to a barrage of news from the point of view of a prosecutor whose job it is to make the case that Libby did something wrong and to keep suspicions very high on others in order to pressure them into testifying. In that environment, itâs hardly surprising that people believe things for which thereâs no evidence.&quot;

James, you&#039;re thinking of Starr, perhaps.  Fitzgerald has run a remarkably leak-free investigation, and, in his press conference last month, was very restrained in what he accused people of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James:  "Odo: Sure. But theyâve been subjected to a barrage of news from the point of view of a prosecutor whose job it is to make the case that Libby did something wrong and to keep suspicions very high on others in order to pressure them into testifying. In that environment, itâs hardly surprising that people believe things for which thereâs no evidence."</p>
<p>James, you're thinking of Starr, perhaps.  Fitzgerald has run a remarkably leak-free investigation, and, in his press conference last month, was very restrained in what he accused people of.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie (Colorado)</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63560</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie (Colorado)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 14:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63560</guid>
		<description>Guys, you&#039;re having a little trouble with the word &quot;lie&quot;.  A lie is a purposeful untruth.  A lie is not the same as an error.  Anjin, it&#039;s not a lie if your opinion isn&#039;t the same as someone else&#039;s.  

Ken:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
Why should I do that [give exact quotes]? Do you not remember, or were you out of the country, or asleep, during the months leading up to the War on Iraq?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The reason he&#039;s asking for &lt;i&gt;exact&lt;/i&gt; quotes is that if you search for them, you &lt;i&gt;won&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; find them.    What you will find is that Bush&#039;s opinion about WMD in Iraq corresponds in every particular to what both Clintons, Jay Rockefeller, Robert Byrd, John Kerry, and a whole raft of others were saying.  Believing, and saying, something that turns out to have been misinformed isn&#039;t a lie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys, you're having a little trouble with the word "lie".  A lie is a purposeful untruth.  A lie is not the same as an error.  Anjin, it's not a lie if your opinion isn't the same as someone else's.  </p>
<p>Ken:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Why should I do that [give exact quotes]? Do you not remember, or were you out of the country, or asleep, during the months leading up to the War on Iraq?</p></blockquote>
<p>The reason he's asking for <i>exact</i> quotes is that if you search for them, you <i>won't</i> find them.    What you will find is that Bush's opinion about WMD in Iraq corresponds in every particular to what both Clintons, Jay Rockefeller, Robert Byrd, John Kerry, and a whole raft of others were saying.  Believing, and saying, something that turns out to have been misinformed isn't a lie.</p>
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		<title>By: Herb</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63555</link>
		<dc:creator>Herb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 14:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63555</guid>
		<description>Bruhaha:

When you answer Ken, you are answering to a brick wall. Ken has his mind made up and you just can&#039;t change it. He has read some left wing material and concluded it to be from God. The problen with Ken is that he and others like hin glory in running this country into the ground and doing everything to keep us devided. It&#039;s guys like Ken, who want this country devided, and emboldened OBL to strike on 9/11. Its guys like Ken, who never served a single day in the service of our country and let everyone else do his fighting for him, that are keeping the US devided and giving the terrorists the Media victorys they crave. Ken is a leach on our society that just takes and takes while never giving anything in return. Give Ken a liberal inch and he will take a extreme liberal mile.
Guys like Ken will be the downfall of our country.

Anjin San:

You would do better to direct your comment to the Governor of Louisiana. Myabe she will listen to you and take heart, She is a Lefty Liberal also.
And Anjin San, when you someday really get to know America and Americans, then maybe you may have a right to put your lefty questions into play.
Until then Anjin San,   STUFF IT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruhaha:</p>
<p>When you answer Ken, you are answering to a brick wall. Ken has his mind made up and you just can't change it. He has read some left wing material and concluded it to be from God. The problen with Ken is that he and others like hin glory in running this country into the ground and doing everything to keep us devided. It's guys like Ken, who want this country devided, and emboldened OBL to strike on 9/11. Its guys like Ken, who never served a single day in the service of our country and let everyone else do his fighting for him, that are keeping the US devided and giving the terrorists the Media victorys they crave. Ken is a leach on our society that just takes and takes while never giving anything in return. Give Ken a liberal inch and he will take a extreme liberal mile.<br />
Guys like Ken will be the downfall of our country.</p>
<p>Anjin San:</p>
<p>You would do better to direct your comment to the Governor of Louisiana. Myabe she will listen to you and take heart, She is a Lefty Liberal also.<br />
And Anjin San, when you someday really get to know America and Americans, then maybe you may have a right to put your lefty questions into play.<br />
Until then Anjin San,   STUFF IT</p>
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		<title>By: anjin-san</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63546</link>
		<dc:creator>anjin-san</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 09:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63546</guid>
		<description>Herb,

Once again, did Bush lie about what a great job &quot;Brownie&quot; (aka &quot;fashion god&quot;)  was doing or was he simply clueless about what was going on during a major disaster in America?

I predict Herb will, once again, run lie the wind from a direct question.

Don&#039;t issue challanges unless you can rise to one yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Herb,</p>
<p>Once again, did Bush lie about what a great job "Brownie" (aka "fashion god")  was doing or was he simply clueless about what was going on during a major disaster in America?</p>
<p>I predict Herb will, once again, run lie the wind from a direct question.</p>
<p>Don't issue challanges unless you can rise to one yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: ken</title>
		<link>http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/zogby_americans_support_impeachment_in_iraq_lies_case/comment-page-1/#comment-63544</link>
		<dc:creator>ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 06:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/?p=12567#comment-63544</guid>
		<description>Bruhaha,

You may not understand the American people very well.

We are smart enough to know that only half the truth is the same as a complete lie. If a drug company tells doctors that their new drug can help cure certain illness, but does not tell them that some respected research indicates that it may actually kill them instead, are they &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; telling the truth? Or are they lying to get their product sold? 

If an accountant sells you a tax shelter and neglets to tell you that if it is disallowed by the IRS your penalties will be doubled, is he telling you the truth while he is selling you the tax shelter? 

The evidence of WMD in Iraq was weak. The CIA acknowledged it was weak and told anyone who would listen. Bush wouldn&#039;t listen. Instead of making sure he had an airtight case he cherry picked the raw intellegence, some of which was based upon forged documents, and gave that to us as if it were the absolute uncontroversial truth.

Bush intentionally mislead us into believing something that he did not have solid evidence to present as absolutely true. Yet he presented it to us in a manner so that we could count on it as justification for WAR. That makes it a lie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruhaha,</p>
<p>You may not understand the American people very well.</p>
<p>We are smart enough to know that only half the truth is the same as a complete lie. If a drug company tells doctors that their new drug can help cure certain illness, but does not tell them that some respected research indicates that it may actually kill them instead, are they <em>really</em> telling the truth? Or are they lying to get their product sold? </p>
<p>If an accountant sells you a tax shelter and neglets to tell you that if it is disallowed by the IRS your penalties will be doubled, is he telling you the truth while he is selling you the tax shelter? </p>
<p>The evidence of WMD in Iraq was weak. The CIA acknowledged it was weak and told anyone who would listen. Bush wouldn't listen. Instead of making sure he had an airtight case he cherry picked the raw intellegence, some of which was based upon forged documents, and gave that to us as if it were the absolute uncontroversial truth.</p>
<p>Bush intentionally mislead us into believing something that he did not have solid evidence to present as absolutely true. Yet he presented it to us in a manner so that we could count on it as justification for WAR. That makes it a lie.</p>
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