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Arkansas Police Claim Handcuffed Man Shot Himself In The Head

Police in Jonesboro, Arkansas spent a good part of last week dealing with the aftermath of the death of a man in police custody under what can only be described as incredibly suspicious circumstances:

LITTLE ROCK, Ark. — Police in Arkansas are investigating whether a man fatally shot himself in the head as he sat in the backseat of a patrol car with his hands cuffed behind his back.

Chavis Carter, 21, died after Jonesboro police stopped a truck in which he was riding July 28 and learned he had an outstanding arrest warrant related to a drug charge. Carter was searched twice, handcuffed and put into the back of the patrol car, according to a police report.

Officers a short time later saw Carter slumped over in the backseat and covered in blood, according to the report, which concluded he had managed to conceal a handgun with which he shot himself. He later died at a hospital, and the report listed his death as a suicide.

Jonesboro Police Chief Michael Yates said Tuesday it appeared Carter shot himself in the head, but his department is investigating the incident, which the chief described as “very unusual.”

“Specifically, how Carter suffered his apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound remains unexplained and investigation … continues given the unusual nature of this event,” the department said in a statement.

Yates said the department is working to reconstruct what happened, but is waiting on an autopsy report that could come as soon as this week.

Hundreds of people gathered in Jonesboro, about 130 miles northeast of Little Rock, on Monday for a candlelight vigil for Carter, and some questioned the circumstances surrounding the shooting. Some held signs asking “What really happened?” to Carter.

“Everyone wants justice,” Jonesboro resident Gale Taylor told The Jonesboro Sun after the vigil. “The circumstances are unusual, but everyone wants the truth.”

The NAACP also called for a thorough investigation into the death of Carter, who was black. The two other men who were in the truck with him and the two officers on the scene are white, according to police.

“The public relies upon police to serve and protect all citizens, no matter their race or ethnicity,” the state conference and Craighead County branch of the NAACP said in a statement.

The traffic stop came after police received a report of a suspicious vehicle driving up and down a residential Jonesboro street. An officer pulled up to the truck Carter was in and another officer soon joined him. The three men in the truck were frisked or patted down, according to the police report. Police said in a statement that the pat downs were “not necessarily” full searches.

One of the officers found marijuana in Carter’s pocket and then learned, after he initially gave a different name, that he had an active warrant out of Mississippi. Yates said Tuesday that the officers initially had trouble interpreting what the warrant was for.

“Since then I believe that it has been determined that it was for basically skipping out on probation on a drug charge,” the chief said.

Officer Keith Baggett found scales and smelled marijuana as he searched the truck’s passenger seat where Carter was sitting, according to the police report.

All three men were handcuffed, but the two others were later let go after they said they didn’t know anything about the scales or any drugs, according to the police report.

Officer Ron Marsh searched Carter again and put him in the patrol car, the police report said. As the officers prepared to leave the scene, Marsh noticed the smell of something burning and saw Carter slumped over.

Marsh ran to get Baggett, who wrote in the police report that he saw “a large amount of blood on the front of his shirt, pants, seat and floor. His hands were still cuffed behind his back.”

Let’s summarize this. Carter is a passenger in a truck that is pulled over by police after reports of “suspicious” activity.”  He and the two other men in the car are searched in some manner during which marijuana worth about $10 was found in one of his pockets. Carter was searched a second time and then put into a patrol car. Then, despite the act that he was handcuffed behind his pack, he managed to retrieve a gun that police had been unable to find in two searches and shoot himself. Shoot himself in the head no less.  Even the Jonesboro Chief of Police has admitted that the circumstances are “bizarre.”

There are a number of questions that come to mind here. How is it that the police can search a man twice, find a small amount of marijuana, and miss a gun? How is it that someone who is handcuffed behind their back and sitting in the back of a patrol car could then not only retrieve that gun in the (apparently short) amount of time that the police had left him alone, but then physically shoot themselves in the head with enough accuracy for the wound to be fatal? Try to imagine the physical maneuvering that would be required to pull off this feat. It seems impossible doesn’t it? And yet, the police are claiming that Carter died as a the result of a “suicide.”

CNN has been one of the few major media outlets giving this story national coverage, here’s one of the reports they’ve done:

On Thursday, the FBI said that it would be joining the investigation into Carter’s death, which seems ideal given the fact that Jonesboro Police may not be the best entity to investigate this considering the implications of what might have happened if it turns out the “suicide” theory ends up being discredited. One question, of course, is whether there were any powder burns, or evidence of gunpowder residue found on Carter’s hands. If there’s not, then there’s simply no way that he fired the fatal shot.

Is it possible Carter did this to himself? I suppose it is, but the circumstances are so bizarre and illogical that it’s hard to believe that there isn’t a lot more to this story.  The biggest unanswered question, though, is why Carter would kill himself over a $10 baggie of marijuana and what turned out to be a relatively minor outstanding warrant in Mississippi?

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Been following this at The Guardian where they have had good coverage of it.

    One question, of course, is whether there were any powder burns, or evidence of gunpowder residue found on Carter’s hands.

    Also, who’s fingerprints are on the fired shell casing and the others. People just don’t wear gloves while loading their guns.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  2. Herb says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    “who’s fingerprints are on the fired shell casing and the others.”

    I think that’s a cop-show myth.

    GSR, though, is definitely relevant, but may have to wait for the autopsy to come back on that. It would be interesting to know if the cops were tested for it as well.

    The thing that gets me is that there was no reported struggle. Usually things go south before shots are fired. Was there a scuffle that didn’t make it into the report? Did they murder him in cold blood?

    Or did the inexplicable actually happen?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  3. Laurie says:

    Another story reported that the shot was to the right side of his head and the young man’s mother says that he is left handed.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  4. Tsar Nicholas says:

    Seems equally as bizarre and improbable that cops would execute some dude in cold blood and then write in their own official report a key fact — that the suspect still was cuffed behind his back — which obviously would create such major suspicions. Are cops that dumb? Why wouldn’t they simply have falsified the report to say that he wasn’t cuffed or that he somehow got out of them, especially if they themselves offed the dude?

    In any event, the forensic evidence here — ballistics, powder residue, wound entry angle, etc. — presumably will be dispositive.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  5. Just Me says:

    This seems way too suspicious to me. I really struggle to see how a man with handcuffs who had been searched could shoot himself fatally.

    IF Carter was able to get his hands on a gun, then the police were incompetent in two searches.

    Although having a son with double joints throughout his arms, I can see where it would be possible for a handcuffed man to shoot himself while handcuffed, however just how often are people double jointed in this way?

    Other than the police officers involved, I also wonder what the men who were with the suspect were doing after they were released by the police. Were they present? Did they see anything? Could they even be involved if the police weren’t?

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  6. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Herb:

    I think that’s a cop-show myth

    No, it is real… at least for all the shells I have ever shot.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  7. dennis says:

    @Herb:

    I think that’s a cop-show myth.

    Hey, Herb. Actually, that’s not a myth at all. I’ll preface this by saying “not in 100% of instances,” officers will usually reload magazines with new rounds immediately after mandatory qualifications. There are all kinds of oil & GSR-stained fingerprints on the shell casings. Even if an officer cleans the gun and mags later, there are still prints from gun cleaning oil. So, no, that’s not a cop show myth.

    And that’ll be absolutely relevant in this investigation. I’m still trying to figure out how to maneuver a hand gun in an exact position to shoot myself in the head with my hands tied behind my back without blowing out my spinal cord first…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  8. dennis says:

    @Just Me:

    I think the term is having “hypermobile” joints, not being “double-jointed.” I don’t think there’s such a thing, but I’m not a doctor.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  9. dennis says:

    @Just Me:

    Sorry, JM; I’m an ass sometimes and can’t help myself…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  10. Herb says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    “No, it is real… at least for all the shells I have ever shot.”

    You’ve had all the shells you ever shot fingerprinted?

    Oh, alright….if it works, it works. Not sure this case calls for such a technique. I suspect this case will be solved in the autopsy.

    My prediction: It was an unintentional self-inflicted gunshot. A lefty with his hands cuffed behind his back fumbles for the gun hidden on his right hip and the trigger gets caught. He didn’t mean to kill himself. He meant to ditch the gun under the seat.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  11. TastyBits says:

    @Herb

    … He didn’t mean to kill himself. He meant to ditch the gun under the seat.

    My thinking also. If he was on parole, he would have been violated, and/or a gun charge could have been his third strike.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  12. Rick Almeida says:

    @Herb:

    A lefty with his hands cuffed behind his back fumbles for the gun hidden on his right hip and the trigger gets caught.

    Ok, but he was searched twice. How to hide a firearm on one’s hip?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  13. TastyBits says:

    @Rick Almeida

    Ok, but he was searched twice. How to hide a firearm on one’s hip?

    It happens more than you would think. Unfortunately, many police officers have learned about sloppy searches the hard way.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  14. Herb says:

    @Rick Almeida:

    How to hide a firearm on one’s hip?

    Dunno….

    Hate to say it that it’s just more plausible that the cops missed the gun and the guy accidentally shot himself trying to ditch it than the cops executed this guy for no apparent reason.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  15. Rick Almeida says:

    @TastyBits:

    It happens more than you would think. Unfortunately, many police officers have learned about sloppy searches the hard way.

    That is not an answer to my question.

    If someone has a handgun on his hip and two searches fail to find it, that entire police department and whatever academy trains those officers should be fired and replaced with TSA officers, God help us all.

    @Herb

    I think there are more than 2 possibilities here, and I agree that a cold-blooded execution of this man seems unlikely. Perhaps there was an altercation with another officer, the other detainee, or another party.

    All I’m saying is that the act of shooting oneself in the head while handcuffed really does stretch reason pretty thin.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 1

  16. TastyBits says:

    @Rick Almeida
    … a handgun on his hip …

    It was probably shoved in his waistband or a pocket, and it could have slid down. It was unlikely in a holster, but there are not enough details to be certain. Also, it was probably a small caliber with a small frame.

    I doubt they were not taught proper pat down search techniques. They should also have been taught the reasons for a proper pat down search. Furthermore, they should have been taught that they are in control of the handcuffed suspect, and they are responsible for his safety. If it was an accidental shooting by the suspect, the individual officers and the department are liable. “Accidental” would be something totally out of their control.

    From the article:

    … Police said in a statement that the pat downs were “not necessarily” full searches.

    This is a CYA statement.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  17. Just Me says:

    Ok, but he was searched twice. How to hide a firearm on one’s hip?

    A gun hidden in the back of the pants could be missed, especially if it was on the smaller side.

    Also, guns can be tucked in all sorts of places where cops may not easily find them.

    I can also see a cop not doing a thorough search if he thought a guy had been searched once already-sort of going through the motions and thinking if the guy had a weapon the first search would have revealed it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  18. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Herb:

    You’ve had all the shells you ever shot fingerprinted?

    Don’t have to Herb, they are plainly obvious. You can SEE them. Really guys, I own guns, but I also believe in reasonable regulation of them. I know I know….that makes me…. a contradiction in terms. When it comes to fingerprints on fired shells. they are right there, you can’t hide them, the oils are burned on by 1200 degree temperatures.

    You can’t hide that shit.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  19. OzarkHillbilly says:

    And Herb…. I have ONLY anecdotal evidence (smears I have noticed in passing) NONE of which have been scientifically tested. BUT…. they looked clear enuf to me. Evidence enuf for a court of law? Of course! But that don’t make it truth.

    By now we all know how forensic evidence is rigged in favor of the prosecution.(They control the labs)

    I am just saying Herb, that an honest examination of the evidence in this case would have….

    Questions.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  20. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Just Me:

    A gun hidden in the back of the pants could be missed, especially if it was on the smaller side.

    Just me…. just exactly what is the smaller side? I mean…. my ass…. is pretty much equal on both sides.

    OK… Seriously, I don’t think that came out quite right, can you elaborate?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  21. Herb says:

    @Rick Almeida:

    ” Perhaps there was an altercation with another officer, the other detainee, or another party.”

    If the altercation showed up anywhere in the initial report, I think I’d reach a different conclusion. No one reported any altercation, even the two other suspects who were not arrested. We’re left with two possibilities: A) an altercation took place, but everyone successfully kept it quiet or B) no altercation took place.

    Based on what we currently know, B seems more plausible.

    With no altercation, there’s no real motive for the cops….aside from crime novel stuff.

    All I’m saying is that the act of shooting oneself in the head while handcuffed really does stretch reason pretty thin.

    At first glance, yes. But then again, handling a weapon while handcuffed may also up the chances of an accidental discharge.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  22. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Herb:

    My prediction: It was an unintentional self-inflicted gunshot. A lefty with his hands cuffed behind his back fumbles for the gun hidden on his right hip and the trigger gets caught. He didn’t mean to kill himself. He meant to ditch the gun under the seat.

    And for the record, I find that almost plausible. Not quite, but almost. It is the “trigger gets caught” part that troubles me. Gets caught on what? Or did he have this firearm fine tuned to the extent that the slightest pressure on the trigger would have caused it to fire? You know, that costs money. and not a little. Usually the original price of the gun to twice the price. Yeah, he could have done it himself, but that takes more patience than I have, and I am not a drug addict.

    tom

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  23. Herb says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    When it comes to fingerprints on fired shells. they are right there, you can’t hide them, the oils are burned on by 1200 degree temperatures.

    Okay, okay. We believe you. Me, I thought the high temperature would burn off the oils or at least just leave an unreadable smudge.

    So I was wrong. They can be read and typed just like other prints.

    Problem though is that this route only answers one question: Who loaded the gun?

    Doesn’t tell us who fired the shot.

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  24. Spartacus says:

    @Herb:

    “Hate to say it that it’s just more plausible that the cops missed the gun and the guy accidentally shot himself trying to ditch it than the cops executed this guy for no apparent reason.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Ovando

    Sometimes the reasons aren’t immediately apparent.

    I’m not saying this case is about money or drugs but I wouldn’t be too sure that white cops in the deep South don’t have their own “reasons” for shooting a black guy with a criminal record in the back of the head.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Ovando

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  25. Herb says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    ” It is the “trigger gets caught” part that troubles me. Gets caught on what?”

    A belt loop, an edge of the handcuffs, the seat belt, his pinkie finger.

    He’s removing a hidden gun with his non-dominant hand while his wrists are cuffed behind his back. In a panic, you wouldn’t need a hair trigger to get an accidental discharge. Just the wrong adrenalin-fueled muscle twitch.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  26. Herb says:

    @Spartacus:

    “I’m not saying this case is about money or drugs but I wouldn’t be too sure that white cops in the deep South don’t have their own “reasons” for shooting a black guy with a criminal record in the back of the head.”

    If this were a movie or a mystery novel, that’s probably what happened. But in real life?

    That’s comic book stuff.

    You gotta use Occam’s Razor here. I’m cutting the racism explanation out as being too overly complicated. So maybe the cops are racist….but are they racist murderers too? That’s two assumptions that are not supported anywhere here.

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  27. Rick Almeida says:

    Ok, so let’s assume for argument’s sake that the victim successfully concealed a small handgun in or around the waist of his trousers.

    Now, we are asked to believe that he shot himself in the head while manipulating it. Think that through.

    He is seated in the back of the cruiser with his hands cuffed behind him.

    He draws his handgun, and somehow manages to manipulate it such that the barrel is pointing up and in, towards his body, AND the trigger manages to get pulled.

    Sit on a couch with your hands behind you, at waist level, palms facing each other. Pantomime drawing a handgun from the waistband of your trousers and twisting it so that the barrel is oriented up toward your own head while keeping your hands on the grips in the handcuffed position.

    This seems virtually impossible to me.

    The alleged gun had to be hidden barrel-down, nobody ever sticks a gun in their trousers barrel-up. Triggers don’t catch on belt loops.

    I’ve been playing this scenario with my tiny little Taurus .38, and I cannot bend my wrists to get the gun pointed anywhere near my head.

    If he was shot in the back, I could almost buy it. The head? No way.

    If you own a pistol, try it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  28. Spartacus says:

    @Herb:

    “If this were a movie or a mystery novel, that’s probably what happened. But in real life?”

    My bad. Thanks for reminding me that it’s only in the movies or novels that racist white police officers beat or kill black people.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/us/23miami.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

    And here it is, I thought the Rodney King beating was actual video footage shot by a bystander when it was really only a fictional movie.

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  29. Herb says:

    @Rick Almeida:

    “If you own a pistol, try it.”

    I used a remote control myself…..and when I looked over my shoulder and down, I thought….yep, there’s a plausible head shot.

    “Now, we are asked to believe that he shot himself in the head while manipulating it. Think that through.

    He is seated in the back of the cruiser with his hands cuffed behind him.”

    Yes….a situation that would make the proper handling of a gun difficult to impossible.

    The alleged gun had to be hidden barrel-down, nobody ever sticks a gun in their trousers barrel-up.

    Yes, it was stored barrel-down, but went barrel-up when he fumbled it. Reflexively reaching for it, he caught his finger on the trigger. Looking back and down over his shoulder, he shot himself in the head.

    Now…..I don’t know for sure whether this is what happened. But those are my guesses I have to the unanswered questions.

    I have no answers as to possible motive or method that would pin this on the cops. Why did they shoot him? Where did they get the weapon? Why couldn’t they come up with a better story?

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  30. Rick Almeida says:

    @Herb:

    Yes, it was stored barrel-down, but went barrel-up when he fumbled it. Reflexively reaching for it, he caught his finger on the trigger.

    I can’t buy it. Not while handcuffed. Not to hit himself in the head. Like I said, in the back, I can totally see it – I was surprised at how easy it would be to shoot myself in the back in his position.

    I have no idea at all who killed him or why. But your invocation of Occam’s Razor requires a chain of increasingly-improbable events:

    1. Two searches miss a concealed handgun
    2. Victim retrieves gun while handcuffed and bobbles it
    3. Into a position where the gun reverses 180 degrees
    4. Pistol lines up somehow with the back of his head
    5. And discharges

    My invocation of Occam’s Razor:

    1. Someone else killed him

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  31. Herb says:

    @Spartacus:

    “Thanks for reminding me that it’s only in the movies or novels that racist white police officers beat or kill black people.”

    What evidence do you have that the cops are racist?

    They’re white? They’re cops? Sorry, but “these cops are racist” is just an assumption. “These racist cops killed the guy” is another assumption, built on top of the first. Then there’s yet another level of assumption here: “The cops are lying about it.” I can’t explain any of that with what I’ve read about the case.

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  32. dennis says:

    @Herb:

    I have no answers as to possible motive or method that would pin this on the cops. Why did they shoot him? Where did they get the weapon? Why couldn’t they come up with a better story?

    One-word answer? Arkansas.

    (Advanced apologies to the offended. But I did admit to being an ass sometimes.)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  33. Herb says:

    @Rick Almeida:

    “1. Someone else killed him”

    If only it were that simple.

    That’s an incredibly complex proposition that can’t be reduced to a single bullet point. What’s the motive?

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  34. Rick Almeida says:

    @Herb:

    What’s the motive?

    I have no idea.

    Hopefully, an investigation by a competent law enforcement agency can figure it out.

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  35. Spartacus says:

    @Herb:

    “What evidence do you have that the cops are racist?”

    Are you serious here? I never argued they were racist; just that racism is a possible explanation that seems more likely than the explanation you offered.

    Contrary to your statement, it is not more plausible that a black guy with a criminal record who had been searched twice, handcuffed behind his back and sitting in a police car shot himself in the head than it is that white police officers in the deep South shot the guy.

    Neither of us has any “evidence” so we’re both speculating about what happened. You believe that only in the movies or novels would white cops in the Deep South murder a black guy.

    I don’t believe that that kind of thing happens only in the movies or novels. I believe that kind of thing happens in real life. I believe that because of the real life articles I linked to as well as the Deep South’s long history of state violence against blacks – a history that you apparently believe was all made up by filmmakers and novelists.

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  36. Herb says:

    @dennis: Not offended at all….but I will say that my one-word answer as to how the cops could have missed the weapon after two searches?

    “Arkansas.”

    Using Hanlon’s razor on that one: “Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  37. Herb says:

    @Spartacus:

    ” I never argued they were racist; just that racism is a possible explanation that seems more likely than the explanation you offered.”

    It’s only a possible explanation if the cops were racist.

    If they’re not, it’s not even an explanation at all.

    Neither of us has any “evidence” so we’re both speculating about what happened. You believe that only in the movies or novels would white cops in the Deep South murder a black guy.

    Yes, I totally admit I have no evidence. I’m making assumptions too, assuming the cops are not lying, that the suspect did shoot himself in the head, and then trying to explain how that all came to be. It’s not perfect, and it may not even be what happened.

    But my explanation doesn’t rely on racist cops with no discernible motive murdering a guy. That’s the kind of stuff that happens in books and movies. Racial murders? They happen all the time.

    Absence any evidence, why should I assume this is one of them?

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  38. Spartacus says:

    @Herb:

    “I’m making assumptions too, assuming the cops are not lying, that the suspect did shoot himself in the head, and then trying to explain how that all came to be.”

    So whose assumptions are more reasonable. You cannot, or at least have not, provided a single example anywhere in the world where a man has been searched twice by trained police, handcuffed behind his back, placed in the back seat of a police car and then shot himself in the head. I mean, you are aware that the victim was named Chavis Carter – not Harry Houdini?

    I, however, provided multiple examples of white police officers in the South who have killed black people. And, of course, I also referenced the Deep South’s long history of state violence against black people.

    So which is more likely to have happened? Would it be an event that has, to our knowledge, never occurred anywhere in the world at any time? Or would it be an event that has happened on multiple occasions in the part of the world that has a history of State white violence against black people.

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  39. Mr. Replica says:

    No gun found after two searches. Handcuffed and some how manages to retrieve a gun from his backside and had the stars align in such a way that he didn’t instead shoot himself in the back, but a fatal wound to the head…

    Not buying it.

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  40. Herb says:

    @Spartacus:

    So whose assumptions are more reasonable.

    Obviously I think mine are. My theory doesn’t need racism, or a conspiracy to cover up a murder. All it needs are two incompetent cops who will probably never do a half-assed search again, if they keep their badges. “That could have been me,” they’re thinking in that paranoid cop way.

    I, however, provided multiple examples of white police officers in the South who have killed black people.

    Yes, that’s true, and I deny none of them. However, you have yet to provide a single example where either of these cops have done something similar. If we could indict ” White Cop Everyman” there would be a circumstantial case a mile long. But just because one cop ate all the donuts, doesn’t mean these cops did too. Same goes for racist murders.

    We’ll see how the case unravels. I made a friendly bet with a guy at work that the suicide ruling stands. An unintentional self-inflicted gunshot. I don’t expect that ruling to satisfy anyone, especially the family, but I think that’s probably what happened.

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  41. Rick Almeida says:

    @Herb:

    Obviously I think mine are. My theory doesn’t need racism, or a conspiracy to cover up a murder. All it needs are two incompetent cops who will probably never do a half-assed search again, if they keep their badges.

    Respectfully, your theory also requires Cirque de Soleil-like contortionist skills.

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  42. grumpy realist says:

    Won’t this be resolved by checking which gun shot him? If it’s one of the police officers, game, set and match. If it’s the suspect’s own gun, we’re still with the two theories. (The police might have taken his gun away from him and shot him with it.)

    In either case, I think we can state the very least the police can be charged with being dumbasses…

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  43. Septimius says:

    Does Mitt Romney have an alibi for the night of the shooting?

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  44. TOO TALL says:

    @dennis:

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  45. TOO TALL says:

    Its very simple. In the two searches, they mist one hand gun and did not handcuff his third hand.That”s Arkansas for you.

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  46. TOO TALL says:

    Like here in ElDorado AR. Our electrical inspector is a plumber. When You ride around you see a lot of burned roofs in homes.Which stand to reason that the branch circuitry was sized wrong. Somebody please help us.

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  47. TOO TALL says:

    Grumpy what about the through away the cops carry? Do you think they will check that one? Thats the oldest cop trick in the book.

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  48. TOO TALL says:

    They all might not of ate the donuts but from time to time they visit the donut shop.

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  49. dennis says:

    @Herb:

    True and agreed, Herb.

    I remember early in my career, I missed a pocket knife during a cursory search. It was found by an officer in the detention facility. I got my ass reamed for that one. You can believe that I did TSA proud after that one.

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  50. Spartacus says:

    @Herb:

    “My theory doesn’t need racism, or a conspiracy to cover up a murder. All it needs are two incompetent cops who will probably never do a half-assed search again, if they keep their badges.”

    Your theory also requires a two-bit drug dealer to be the greatest magician/contortionist the world has ever known. My theory requires only that at least one white cop in the Deep South found some motivation to kill a a black criminal.

    Well I guess I have to agree with you since the South is just chock full of great black magicians and completely devoid of white racist cops.

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  51. TastyBits says:

    @dennis

    I remember early in my career, I missed a pocket knife during a cursory search. …

    I know of a few examples of weapons getting into lockup/booking facility. It is not a regular occurrence, but it has happened more than once. I am sure most large cities have had similar cases. The strip search is where most things normally are found, and this is with regular searches along the way. Of course, normal is not the problem.

    @anybody else
    I do not wish to get sucked into the debate about what actually happened. I was not there. In some communities, the police are worse than the criminals, and there are many examples of police committing robbery, drug trafficking, and murder. Also, racism still exists in the US including the North.

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  52. Wayne says:

    Many people with handcuffs on would be able to move an object to their side. Many would look down between their arm and hip to look at the object especially if seated. Therefore giving a proper angle for a head shot.

    I have shot hundreds of thousands of round. Don’t recall ever seeing a fingerprint on one. The heat would burn off the oil. Corrosion is another case.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/03/fingerprints.bullets

    If I had a “toss” gun that I thought I might use illegally then I would wear gloves not only when handling it but also with handling the ammo for it.

    Many holsters are padded or disguised. Some look like cell phone case or wallet. Missing one is not that hard. A small frame gun is just that small. Check out a Sig P238. It’s a 380 auto. There are even smaller ones than that. A “45” derringer can fit in the palm of your hand
    .
    However, there should be enough forensics to figure out what happen. It is not as easy as on T.V. though.

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  53. Wayne says:

    Many people with handcuffs on would be able to move an object to their side. Many would look down between their arm and hip to look at the object especially if seated. Therefore giving a proper angle for a head shot.

    I have shot hundreds of thousands of round. Don’t recall ever seeing a fingerprint on one. The heat would burn off the oil. Corrosion is another case. Not saying they are not there, just that they are not typical visible.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/jun/03/fingerprints.bullets

    If I had a “toss” gun that I thought I might use illegally then I would wear gloves not only when handling it but also with handling the ammo for it.

    Many holsters are padded or disguised. Some look like cell phone case or wallet. Missing one is not that hard. A small frame gun is just that small. Check out a Sig P238. It’s a 380 auto. There are even smaller ones than that. A “45” derringer can fit in the palm of your hand
    .
    However, there should be enough forensics to figure out what happen. It is not as easy as on T.V. though.

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  54. Herb says:

    @Spartacus:

    “Your theory also requires a two-bit drug dealer to be the greatest magician/contortionist the world has ever known.”

    Nah, it just needs an unfortunate alignment of steel and flesh. Stranger things have happened. A couple years ago there was that story about the hunter who was killed when his dog stepped on a loaded shotgun.

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  55. TOO TALL says:

    In the face while looking down at his waist mmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe. Now explain how he turned his head aimed and shot his self in the temple.

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  56. TOO TALL says:

    @Herb: The unfortunate thing is that it happen in AR. Where civil rights is a joke. There are still white only jobs here in ElDorado AR. And blacks except it. If he had of shot his self in the ass maybe in the temple that’s BS.

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  57. TOO TALL says:

    @Herb: I bet the gun was not laying flat down on the floor and the man was on a ladder.

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  58. Herb says:

    @TOO TALL:

    Now explain how he turned his head aimed and shot his self in the temple.

    I have my diagrams ready. Set up the projector and I’ll start my presentation.

    Unless you want to go first with the “racist cop did it’ theory. I don’t mind waiting actually. Should only be a minute or two.

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  59. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: Ya this is just like the cop that shot this black man in the back while he was cuffed from behind said that the man was trying to take his gun.
    Just rap your mind around that. Boy these black guys got great butt control.

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  60. Herb says:

    @TOO TALL:

    “The unfortunate thing is that it happen in AR. Where civil rights is a joke. “

    No, the unfortunate thing is that the only evidence for racism here is the racial make-up of the participants.

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  61. TOO TALL says:

    @Herb: A cop don’t have to be white to be racist. Most of the time black cops has a god complex when it come to his on people. Your diagram, yea I bet you do. Anything is possible but is it likely. I DON’T THINK SO!!

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  62. TOO TALL says:

    @Herb: No,the unfortunate thing is that down through the years we have been hood winked. The trick worked. It was reported back in the day that one day racism would be so slight that the black man would believe that all these strange things that happen to him. He did it to himself.

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  63. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    I was not there, and therefore, I do not know what happened. Many things that are now possible were once impossible, but I do not know enough of the circumstances to make a knowledgeable guess. You and the other commenters are far more qualified, but I would suggest that how he was cuffed might be important. Palms-in vs. palms-out might make a difference, but I am not an expert.

    Racist cops, crooked cops, incompetent cops, and any combination are possible, and they can be found in the North, South, East, West, and any combination. In many communities, the police are worse than the criminals, and I suspect that I have more first hand knowledge than most of the commenters.

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  64. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: Palms in palms out what ever. The most likely shot would of been in the butt. From his butt to his head is a long way. What about back it comes before the head then shoulder neck head. Not just in the head the temple.Officer please!!

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  65. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    Like I said, you are far more knowledgeable than me.

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  66. Wayne says:

    The most likely outcome of shooting a BB from half court is a miss. However, there are many cases where the shot actually goes in. It is not what is probable but what is possible.

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  67. Alexenia says:

    Where is the gun? Another Trayvon Martin.

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  68. nikki says:

    1 they did not hear the gunshot
    2 they did not see it
    3 what ever happened to the cameras in police cars
    4 no info from so called buddies

    i feel sorry for there wives because they are very careless about life, that could have been them if he really had a gun

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  69. TOO TALL says:

    @Wayne: Also, if your uncle had not of had nuts, he would of been your auntee…… The word if, is a very deep word,it looks something like this…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I wonder why this shigidy never happens to white folks so they can be out raged to. In New york black man pulls out cell phone get shot 87 times grand jury says justifide .Mr Rodney King may he rest in peace BEAT ON VIDEO grand jury no bill,Mr Martin was stalked and shot AND ITS A QUESTION,O.J.In a fight with a black belt tells white woman “STAND RIGHT THERE IM GOING TO CUT YOUR HEAD OFF NEXT GLOVE DON’T FIT BLOODY GLOVE LAYING ON DRY LEAVES BUT NO BLOOD ON LEAVES………….. The president is the reason why the gas is high not global market ………………………………………………………………………….. I’M SICK OF IT

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  70. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    I apologize for the length, but it is the only to give you a good answer/explaination.

    These things do happen to white people, but they generally do not have a problem with it. Many of these incidents are not in the news because white people do not have a problem with the police.

    Most people have no reason to distrust the police, and they cannot understand why anybody would. They cannot imagine that in some communities the police are worse than the criminals. They may accept that there are “a few bad apples”. When you live in or around one of these communities, you may not be very cooperative with the police. Many white people would believe that big foot was a space alien before they would believe that it could be this bad.

    Young black males are often prejudged to be potential criminals, especially violent criminals, and as you noted, one’s skin shade does not make a difference. There is a lot that many white folks do not understand about black folks or their experiences, and most of them are more ignorant than racist. The ignorance leads to prejudice and bigotry.

    Because a black male is assumed to be potentially a violent criminal, simple non-threatening actions are assumed to be threatening, and too often the results are tragic. Many police forces have become militarized, and this has caused these results to increase dramatically. The police do not “work the streets”, and the people who live on those streets are viewed as different. This affects black and white cops.

    Most white people do not understand what it is like to be black. I look like a badass, and even my wife says she would be scared if she did not know me. I am often assumed to be a potential criminal. What most white people do not understand or consider is that with a shave and change of clothes I will be instantly acceptable to those same people. If I were black man, not so much. I would still need to show some sign that I was not scary.

    When white people say, “he speaks so well.” They do not mean that he is well educated. They may mean that he is not scary, but they also may mean that he is articulate. Where President Bush was a mush-mouth, President Obama is much better able to convey his point, and many people would say that Obama is more educated than Bush.

    In my opinion, I am not familiar with the L. A. police department’s reputation now or at the time, and therefore, I am cautious in saying that the Rodney King beatdown was not a problem, but I have seen video of white drivers receiving a beatdown also.

    The OJ Simpson case is not unusual. There are many instances of ex-husbands killing their ex-wives. It is usually over alimony payments, and they are usually rich.

    There are many cases where a black man is dead because he was prejudged to be violent, but most of these cases are never reported in the news. Because many white people have little or no understanding, they assume that it is a rare occurrence, but because many black people know it is not a rare occurrence, they have a different reaction than white people when cases do make the news. Each time this happens, the misunderstanding becomes greater.

    This specific case seems like it is an accidental shooting by the victim, but I do not know all the circumstances. The investigation should be conducted by knowledgeable personnel, and this may mean calling in outside help. The autopsy should have been performed by a good coroner, and one should have been called in if necessary. At each step, both scenarios should be investigated. In addition to the possible factors (hand cuff position, pistol frame size, bullet entry, entry angle if determinable, etc.), the original gun dealer and any subsequent buyers could help to narrow down the possible location of where he obtained the gun. If the gun was reported stolen in the Arkansas town, it might be a drop weapon.

    The officers involved should have been immediately reassigned to administrative duties, and they should have been instructed to not conduct police work. If they see a crime, they should call 911. The police should hold frequent press conferences to allow them to be questioned. They may only respond “no comment”, but this is a way of conveying the specific concerns of the public. If nothing else, this shows that the department is not being disrespectful.

    In the Trayvon Martin case, the way the police handled it was disgraceful and disrespectful. This case has parts that do not “feel” right. The reported dialog, way of speaking, and actions of Trayvon Martin do not seem right. From the media accounts, Trayvon was not a thug. A thug tends to have a record of thuggish behavior – official and unofficial, and his “record” did not indicate this. He seems more like a wanna be thug. What Jorge Zimmerman reports as Trayvon’s speech, actions, and mannerisms seem too thuggish, and the thuggishness seems to be from movies or TV.

    Jorge Zimmerman was a wanna be cop, but he seems to be more scared than confident. What he reports as his speech, actions, and mannerisms seem cartoonish. Some of his story is plausible, but other parts do not. Going by his report, it was self defense, but going by my gut, it was manslaughter (or similar). He should have been arrested that night, and the courts could sort it out.

    To be sure, racisim is “alive and well” in the US. Electing a black man as president does not change that, but a lot of what gets tagged as racism is bigotry through ignorance. If the ignorance is removed but the bigotry remains, it is racism. Other racism is just racism, but both are evil. James Byrd, Jr., “strange fruit”, and the Tuskegee experiments occur when a person is considered less then human.

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  71. TOO TALL says:

    @Rick Almeida: And also, the more you move the tighter the handcuffs gets.

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  72. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: Aki,I could not of said it better my self. So how can we as a people make a change. Whats the first move?

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  73. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    Understanding and respect are needed, but this means admitting we could be wrong. People are people may sound trite, but in my experience, there is little difference between people. There is a lot of ignorance among both black and white folks, but it is going to take a lot of work to decrease it.

    One thing is to get people to understand that the world looks different depending upon where you stand. This is applicable to everybody, but this also includes different outlooks between different black groups.

    My sister was dating a black guy, but she has had little interaction with black people. After some of the dates, she would say things that would make me cringe, but it was due to ignorance. (She thought he was part Indian because he said he was red. When I stopped laughing, I told her what he meant.)

    A lot of people who are considered rich do not consider themselves rich. From their outlook, they have bills to pay, and they worry about paying those bills. They consider rich to be somebody who does not need to worry about paying the bills, and they consider they are the same as a working class person who also worries about paying the bills. From the working class person’s outlook, the world looks a lot different. Moving from the upper to middle class is a substantially different from moving down from the working class.

    If the rich guy is white and the working guy is black is this racist? If it is a rich black guy and a working guy, is it affirmative action? If it is two white guys, is it snobbery? If it is two black guys, is it a house/field issue? Make one an asshole, and does the situation change? Make both assholes. What about a do-gooder? People are people, and most people will assume they are correct.

    Adding police brutality makes a complicated problem even worse, and let’s not forget about the brown folks. Black people are a minority of the population, but they are over represented in the under class. Again, things looks different from where you stand. To a black man, it looks like racism, The white middle class has a radically different view.

    Violent criminals are usually not found among the middle and upper classes because they do not tolerate them. (White collar criminals tend to be non-violent. There are also a group of people engaged in “legal” activities that are the same as illegal activities. I will leave these two groups aside for brevity.) Violent criminals tend to be among the lower and under classes, and this is often understood to mean that they must tolerate them more. Again, people are people. The truth is that people in these communities do not want criminals in their communities, but they have fewer options to rid themselves of the criminals.

    When the white man in the middle begins to understand this, the black (and brown)people at the bottom begin to look more like him. When the black man at the bottom begins to understand this, the white man begins to look less like a racist.

    In my opinion, the War on Poverty has created a tar pit at the bottom of the economic scale, and the War on Drugs has turned it into a hellhole. I do think the black man has been “hoodwinked and bamboozled”*. White liberals, race hustlers, and poverty pimps have accomplished what the white supremacist groups have advocated, but the racists are too stupid to realize this. The conservative advice to “pull oneself by his bootstraps” is worthless. When you and your boots are stuck in a tar pit, you have very little chance of getting out. (If it is so easy to move up the economic ladder, more middle class people should be moving up.)

    If someone can figure out a way to increase the others understanding, the problem could be substantially lowered. Eventually the younger generations will be the solution, but is will take one or two to accomplish it. This is assuming we could stop the nonsense.

    Black Folks: Get to know a few white people (not your “white friend”). They are not all racist.
    White Folks: Get to know a few black or brown people (not your “black friend”). They do not bite.

    Both: Talk to somebody you disagree with, and try to understand their position. You do not have to agree with it, but you might learn something.

    *This was not said by Malcolm X. It actually sounds like something Minister Farrakhan would say.

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  74. Terry says:

    @TastyBits: A “pat down” is a limited search for weapons. Not a full search as incidential to arrest.

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  75. Terry says:

    @TOO TALL: That’s not true. If the handcuffs are double locked you can move all you want. They won’t tighten up.

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  76. Terry says:

    @Rick Almeida: Gun was probably in the crotch of his pants, there are cops that don’t do a thorough search “down there”. I’ve seen it happen…

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  77. Terry says:

    @Rick Almeida: Isn’t there a statement where they have witnesses who put the cops away from the car and him alone inside when the incident occurred?

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  78. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: I can’t comment on the whole peace but in part. This is the black mans woe and what the president touched on by the statement,if you are rich you didn’t do it all by your self.First and foremost you need a customer a banker employee so on.
    We need our on banks, we must become better consumers .I want the same shot as the rich white guy.Don’t never think if it’s a white and a black issue that race don’t matter. Do you not think we want to be rich are employed? Most wealth was past down, My slave fofather could only leave bills. If the bank is white customer white employee white and you are starting from behind where do you turn. If a black guy went for a job and a white guy went for the same job with every thing equal . Who would get it 2012. I live in the south where we have white only companies only thing they need is the sign on the door. If a black mention race it’s a problem because you are right we have been tricked hood winked into thinking that all our problems we did it to our self BS BLACK ON BLACK CRIMES WELFARE UNEMPLOYMENT. we need some backers like old Mitt had when he was pulling his self up by his boot straps. Willie Lynch is still live and well in the black man also and that don’t help .

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  79. TOO TALL says:

    @Terry: I’ve been in the back of a many police car cuffed a 1000 times I must disagree and there’s that word again. IF………. Have you ever been cuffed in the back of a cop, car?

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  80. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    Again, I apologize for the length.

    You asked what was the first move, and I gave you my thought. There is a lot of work that needs to be done, but until we understand why each other thinks what they do, the change will never start. I have a unique perspective I know first-hand what it is like being black working or under class man. I am not as familiar with black middle and upper class folks. I understand why black folks were outraged with the Rodney King verdict. I do not agree, but I do understand..

    I said that racism is alive and doing well. I also said that electing a black man for president did not change that. I doubt that any racists voted for a black man to be president, but a lot of white people voted for President Obama. Therefore, I would not classify them as racists, but a lot of them do things that look racist. Many people in this group do not think of themselves as racist or bigoted, but black folks see it differently. In my opinion, the way to start the process is to understand each other, but that does not mean agreeing with each other.

    Most racists will stop being racists when they stop breathing. Nothing is going to change them, but we cannot allow that to stop the rest of us, black and white, from making progress. There also are black people who are racist or bigoted towards white people. I have been places where a white man “should not be here,” and “this is our place.” I do not pay pay much attention to it, but I know it is there.

    I have been called a racist a few times by black people who do not know me, but another black person would explain that I was an asshole not a racist. The person who stood up for me was not my “black friend”. In most cases, it was someone who did not like me, but they knew I did not disrespect someone because of their skin color. I respect a man as a man, period. If the man acts like a bitch, I respect a bitch as a bitch. I will look you in the eye and tell you that I do not agree with you, and I expect the same from you.

    A racist will treat a black man as an animal. A bigot will treat a black man as a child. To a racist, a black man is not worth as much as a white man. To a bigot, a black man is not at the same level as a white man. This is not going to change with older people (30+), but the younger people can begin to think differently. Once the process begins, it will take a generation or two or three to take hold. Your grandchildren and my grandchildren may be able to live in a different world, but it is going to take a lot of work.

    When a black man and a white man apply for the same job, the person selected is more complicated. If the black man is dealing with a racist, the black man is not going to get the job, and there will be some reason the black man is not qualified. If the black man is dealing with a bigot, he will need to be better than the white man to be equal, and in some cases, that difference will be substantial. If a job requires a college degree, a racist will say it requires a masters degree, and if the black man has a masters degree, the racist will say that he needs a doctors degree. If a job requires a college degree, a bigot will consider a black man’s college degree to be a high school degree, and the black man will need a masters degree to be even with the white man. The two look the same, but with the bigot, the black man may be hired.

    Recently, my wife told that a lot of places are doing credit and background checks before renting to people. Her white friend & husband were trying to get an apartment, and her friend was worried about her credit. I immediately knew what was up, and I told her that her friend was white and probably would not have a problem. We both know what they are up to, but most white people do not have a clue. I can help by explaining what is going on.

    Background and credit checks cost money, and nobody are not putting out a lot of money doing them. If they do not want to rent to somebody, that somebody will have “bad credit”. Most people do not have a perfect credit history. You were late on a payment once in your life, and I mean white and black people’s credit history. People with less money tend to have a worse credit history. If somebody wants to challenge being turned down because of bad credit, they need a lawyer, but a lawyer costs money. Since you do not have much money, you cannot get a lawyer, and you are fucked. If a white person with bad credit is approved for the apartment, they assume that they were treated, and they think the system is fair. Remember, it looks different depending on where you stand.

    Black people need to understand where white people stand. A white person may not have any clue about how things really work, and they think you are being unreasonable. Calling them racist does not get them to understand any better. It only reinforces their thinking that you are unreasonable.

    People do not want to be with people who make the uncomfortable. If a white person is worried about being called a racist, they will not want to be around black people. If a black person is worried about being discriminated, they will not want to be around black people. In a large group of white people, black people will stay together, but in a large group of black people, white people will stay together. People are people, and we are more alike than we think.

    I am a lot of times more comfortable around black people, and the little things that black do are not strange to me. When I see a black man, I will do the head nod and “what up”. Black and white men find it strange. To a black man, it’s a black thing. To a white man, it is a bizarre ritual. I do it because I have been with a black man, and when we see another black man they will do it. At first, I did not understand that it was a black thing, and I started doing it back. It was not until I was by myself doing it to black men that I realized that it was a black thing. Am I allowed to do it? If not, why? I understand that it is a way of two black guys acknowledging each other because there are only a few black guys, and they are saying, “I got your back.”

    If a black man is in an uneven fight, I will give him a hand, but if it is a fair fight, he should be able to handle it. A man is either a man or a bitch, and I am going to treat black and white the same. To me, that is showing respect. I am aware of the darker skin, and I know that the darker skin people get treated worse, sometimes a lot worse. I understand that a black man gets the shitty end of the stick, but sometimes he is not the only one. I cannot do much about it, but I can try to educate white people about the black experience.

    There may be a few people reading this, and they may reconsider their opinion. A racist is going to consider me a “nigger lover”. There is nothing I can do about that, but I may be able to open a few eyes. I can not do anything about the color of your skin nor can you, and there is not much I can do about your plight. I do get it, and I know there are some black experiences I will never know. I can assure you that there is a lot we disagree about. I am usually called a right wing nut, but the right wing nuts do not really like me. They think I am an asshole.

    Let’s not forget about the brown people. For a hater, a brown person will do if a black person is not around, but if there is no black or brown person, the hater will find a white person to hate. If we could get the hater to hate whites first, that would level the playing field.

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  81. TastyBits says:

    @Doug Mataconis
    My comment got eaten. I think the problem was the second to last paragraph. If you could edit the word, it should make it through. I should have added a couple of symbols.

    I apologize for any inconvenience.

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  82. Terry says:

    @TOO TALL: I have over 25 years experience with handcuffs. Yes, I’ve been cuffed in back for training purposes. The entire point of double locking the handcuffs is to prevent a prisoner from tightening them to the point where he / she could injure themselves…

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  83. TastyBits says:

    @Terry

    I do understand the different types of searches, As you noted, too many police officers do a sloppy search, and they just “pat down” the arrestee when they should do a search.

    Depending upon what city or town you are from makes a difference regarding a pat down when questioning somebody. In many cities, a police officer will mistake a joint for a knife. A pat down in the courtroom is not necessarily the same as a pat down on the street. A cadet learns one thing in the academy, but the police officer learns something else on the street.

    You need to know who to jack and when. You also need to know who is in the “game” and who is not. For the real thug, the “knife” that turns out to be a joint allows you to further an investigation. For a wanna be, throw it down the sewer. You “do what you gotta do.” Tragically, too many police officers cannot tell the difference between the two until it is too late.

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  84. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    Black on black crime is real, and it is devastating black communities. Deny it you want, but every black man killed is a win for the racists. Every black man killed by another black man is a double win for the racist. The War on Drugs exacerbates the problem, but it is only one of the two main factors.

    The War on Poverty has poured billions of dollars into poor communities, and they have gotten worse not better. In my opinion, anybody born in a poor community has little chance of making a better life for themselves. Most of the schools are worthless. White and black liberals would never send their children to the public they are trying to help. Sasha and Malika will never go to a predominately black public school. I do not know of any black or white leader whose children attend one. My guess is that if their children did attend one things would change fast. The people who have no choice are a way for the liberal black and white leaders to stay powerful and rich.

    You have been hoodwinked, but who did it? Did Mitt Romney promise you anything? Republicans will tell you they will give you less and expect you to work harder. You may want to take a look at who benefits from the black man’s woes. Anybody who tells you they are going to help you and they just happen to be helping themselves will lose money if you get better. If you go to a doctor and you never get better but he keeps taking money from you, do you really think he is going to stop?

    If you want to begin to open your eyes, I would suggest you take a look at Minister Louis Farrakhan. I do not agree with everything he says, and I really do not get the UFO thing. What I do know is that Minister Farrakhan is not making money off the backs of poor blacks. He does not much care for white people, but he will tell you to your face. I can respect that type of man. I do not agree with much of the Nation of Islam, but I do know that their concerns are not based upon keeping the present black and white leaders in power. How does this compare to Reverend Jackson and Sharpton?

    A lot of conservative white people (right wing nuts) are more pissed off at white Republican politicians than they are with President Obama. President Obama is not going to tell them one thing and do another. Republican politicians will tell them they will not do what President Obama is doing, but they will do it any way. I do not want to be stabbed, but if you do it, stab me in the chest not the back. I am a man, and I expect to be treated like a man.

    I think that you have been hoodwinked and bamboozled, but we differ on who did it.

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  85. TOO TALL says:

    @Terry: But handcuffs are tight,you can’t just screw around and you have 25 year officer you know this.

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  86. Horrez says:

    First of all this young black man did not shoot himself in the heaf..Unless his head was about the length of a giraff it would be very,very impossible.Another thing,the very first thing that scary,white cops do is pat you down so that you have no weapons on you.Another thingthere is no way on Gods green earth this young black man would shoot himself on the right side of his temple when he is clearly left handed,and last bit not least if he shot himself in the side of his temple,then how in hell does he fall forward.He would have fell to his left side.This is clearly another case of i killed me another nigger.I wonder was this in retaliation for the two white boys that wete killed in Michigan.But whatever the case is the facts remain that white cops,white men white people have been killing blacks from the beginning up until now and get away with it,cover it up or get suspended,a slap on the wrist and then go out and do it again.Once again i say that the judicial sysstem was not designed for blacks.Those cops killed that black young man and f and are lieng lime the white cowards they are.This is so sad how cops can just kill people and get off but wgen you even look at them you get life in prison.These white cops are evil and deserve to be shot in the head as well.I dont know aout you guys but im tired of this racial shit and its time to do something black people,it is time.

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  87. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: Say officer, what’s up with Mr. Milton Hall , in stopping a man is it possible that the cops could shoot the black man once in the knee. Instead of 30 times in the head and body?

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  88. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    If you are calling me an “officer”, you are wrong.

    Mr. Milton Hall was more than likely a victim of heightened color arousal. These type of shootings are not only black men being the victim, but black men are disproportionately the victims. Black people make up about 12% of the population, but they are more times the victim of police mistakenly thinking someone has a gun. I do not have the actual numbers, but black and brown men are shot substantially more than white people.

    The reason is the same as the job inequality. A black man, especially a black young man, is assumed to be more dangerous than a white man. If white man looks thuggish, it is assumed that he is probably not dangerous. If a black man looks thuggish, it is assumed he is probably dangerous. A white man pulling a cell phone out is assumed to be pulling out a cell phone, but the black man is assumed to be pulling out a weapon.

    The black man who does not look thuggish (nor act thuggish) must prove he is not dangerous, but the white man is assumed to be an upstanding citizen. With few exceptions, the black man has a much higher level to pass. In some cases, it is bigotry, and in others, it is racism. I distinguish between the two. To a racist, it is not a tragedy. To a bigot it is a tragedy, but the result is a dead black man in either case. Black cops are would be bigots. They assume that a black man is criminal.

    Some of this is because the cops are not good at being cops. They cannot tell a criminal from a non-criminal. It is not always easy, but in many cases, there are signs that can be read. A homeless man does not act like a thug, and a thug does not act like a homeless man. Additionally, neither can do a credible impression of the other. This does not mean that the thug is committing a crime, and the homeless man could be committing a crime.

    I have probably pissed you off by this point, but keep reading. You may be surprised.

    Police mistakenly shooting anybody occurs too frequently, and black (and brown) men are the victims far too often. Presently, there is little or no negative consequences for these incidents. The solution is to increase the negative consequences. They should be arrest and charged with manslaughter or negligent homicide, and a court can decide if they were justified. This is the only way to decrease these incidents. The time may not get a lot of time, but a conviction would remove them from the police force.

    I am generally pro police, but this is lousy police work at best. There may have been extenuating circumstances, but being a police officer includes a certain amount of risk. If you are not willing to take that risk, get another job. Color arousal is a disqualification for a police job. I expect a doctor to cure me not kill me, and it is no different for a police officer.

    Right is right, and wrong is wrong. I try to keep that straight.

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  89. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    When you shoot someone, you aim for the largest area, and that is the torso. Shooting somebody in the leg happens in the movies and on TV. A shot in the leg is a missed shot. If you are not shooting for center mass, you should not be shooting anybody.

    @Terry could go into more details.

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  90. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: What about Mr. Milton Hall shot 30 times because he pulled a knife. Would one shot in the knee cap 20 feet away to make sure that none of the 15 cops got cut work??

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  91. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    If only one officer pulled his weapon and intentionally shot Mr. Hall in the knee, that officer needs to either needs more training or disciplinary action. You shoot for the torso which is the largest body mass. You shoot somebody in defense of you or somebody else. This would include great bodily harm.

    If Marines and Soldiers in combat are expected to show restraint and not shoot civilians just because they may be the enemy, I cannot understand why police officers are held to a lower standard. Personally, I have a problem with the Rules of Engagement for military, but that is a different issue. The police force is a civilian organization interacting with civilians, and I expect them to act accordingly.

    In addition, police officers should have access to body armor, and it should be knife proof/resistant. If they do not, the depart should stop buying battering rams.

    Police work can be dangerous, and done properly, it is dirty. Sometimes a beatdown is required, but anybody in the game knows this. Crackheads driving reckless and endangering the public deserve a beatdown also. Rodney King deserved his beatdown.

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  92. Terry says:

    @TastyBits: You are correct. We don’t shoot to people’s arms or legs, that happens on TV. You shoot to stop the threat, center mass. Remember that there are alot of other factors involved. Usually your adrenaline is pumping, and so is the suspects. It’s usually a split second decision when you shoot. You don’t have time to hesitate or you may end up dead. My goal when I went to work was to come home to my family at the end of my shift.

    I would like to say that alot of the police shootings involve suspects that resist, flee and refuse to drop their weapon. It’s very simple. Obey all commands and don’t resist. That would eliminate alot of the incidents that are happening. Alot of people on here seem to paint all officers with the same brush. 99% of police are hard working dedicated professionals, but as in any line of work there are some”bad apples” as well…

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  93. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: There you go are talking about Marines.We are talking about cops cowardly killing another black man.I guess you didn’t get my punn. TO STOP A MAN 10 FEET AWAY WITH A KNIFE ,WITH THE MAN MOVING AWAY. DID NOT HAVE TO BE SHOT30 TIMES. WITH THE TRAINING YOU DESCRIBE THESE KILLERS ARE TRAIN TO KILL BLACK PEOPLE THAT POSE A SO CALL TREAT. WHAT ABOUT STOPPING HIM. AND HOW WAS HE GOING TO CUT 7 COPS AT ONE TIME 10 FEET AWAY THROUGH THE KNIFE RUN GET THROUGH IT RUN……………………..Lets see, black man stalked killed, ooh yea, the hood right. Black Man in the in back of police car YOU KNOW MAM WELL YOU CAN’T ROLL YOUR ARMS AROUND IN HANDCUFFS IF ANYTHING YOU’LL ASK TO LOOSE THEM PLEASE BECAUSE THEY ARE KILLING ME WHY THIS SHIGIDY DON’T HAPPEN TO WHITE FOLK. NOT ONE SHOOTING THIS WEEK. THE SCORE, WHITE MURDERING POLICE , 3 POOR BLACK MAN 0

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  94. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: About the beat down Rodney King . So why be a coward about it?. We all know that most cops are cowards, and the force is never equal.For you to feel this we need to switch sides .Its no game if 15 black armed men rolled up on you by your safe,and they could lie there way out of anything and oh yea it’s hell if you shoot this coward. What kind of dope do you do? Let’s see, cop 25 years at lease 45 . Man you cant leave home without a Hydrocodone for your pain don’t forget the bar and drink at night for bed. So what kind of head or you. Doctor, Dope man.Same SIGIDY.

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  95. TastyBits says:

    @Terry

    Use body armor, and if your department does not have any, the community needs to take action. It would be no different than not having seat belts in patrol vehicles. I understand that you would like to make it home safe each night, but you have chosen a dangerous career.

    A lot of good Marines and Soldiers wanted to make it back safe, but they did not. Some of them were killed or injured due to the Rules of Engagement. In some cases they were required to take fire until the enemy could be identified and safely shot. Mortars, artillery, and air strikes could not be called on a location because the enemy may be there. Their hands were not always tied, but there were at times. I expect that a civilian organization engaging civilians would have stricter Rules of Engagement.

    I am not sure where you work, but there are police departments where the “bad apples” outnumber the good apples. By bad I mean robbery, drug dealing, and murder. These have occurred, and I have no doubt the are still occurring. These communities exist, and they tend to be poorer.

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  96. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    Do you know what Rules of Engagement are? If not, look it up. The military in a war zone are not allowed to do what many police in American cities are doing. Which part of that is confusing you?

    I have given you serious answers to your questions. I could have disrespected you by assuming you are a clown making jokes. Apparently, you are a clown.

    Police departments could be training police officers on ways to kill a black man and get away with it. The could have such super tight security that nobody has been able to document it. The training could be so effective that even black police officers are hunting black men. They must also train the black cops how to keep their family and friend from knowing they are really white supremacists.

    We will have to disagree about this, but I have given an explanation of how these things happen. I have also given a method to stop most of these incidents. My way results in fewer dead black men, but your way results in more dead black men. Of course, you can still be outraged, and that will make you feel good. You want more dead black men to make you feel good. Maybe you are a racist.

    You can have Rodney King and all the other crack heads. Enjoy. I will take Trayvon Martin, Milton Hall, and all the other black men who have been victims of overzealous police officers and neighborhood watch captains. With my way the vast majority of these cases will cease, and it may be possible to start righting years, decades, and centuries of hate. Your problem is that you will have to give up your hate, and you are willing to sacrifice a few innocent black men to make you feel better.

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  97. TastyBits says:

    I do not think that all crackheads deserve a beatdown.

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  98. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: Down through the years, we have been SACRIFICED ! So my question to you,when is enough, enough?
    I try to clown around with the truth because if you speak the truth in America about anything, it is you who is the bad guy..And as for as rules of engagement. 11B10 ARMY.
    As to the training of cop squads.Hay, you are not crazy, are blind.I think that we both see and feel the same way. You are just more politically correct than myself.See I’M just sick and tired.

    Now, whats our next move? I’m glad to see that you are a republican, because you came off the statement “All crack heads deserve a beat down”. {SMILE} I know that I DID”NT READ THAT RIGHT

    Now next move. We as a people HUMAN must become involved with each other. Live and die by AM I MY BROTHERS KEEPER ? THE CORRECT RESPONSE IS. YES, I AM.
    We as a people must solve our problems as a people. One unit. The whole mam world is gone crazy.

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  99. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: “With my way the vast majority of these cases will cease”. We as a people is sick and tired of waiting.We want to be treated equally.
    Every race of people in the world this year has fought against oppression but U.S. Blacks. We want equal treatment under the law.So when is some of this equality going to trickle down to us. It haven”t trickle down in all these years what make you think it will start now?

    Go to the prisons. Look around, . A prudent thinking man adding up all the above . MAMMMM where’s the white man? You and I know that they commit crimes. And being from the streets the sorryest crack head I ever seen was white men and women boy that”s some weak shidigdy

    WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH. “OPPRESSION IS WORSE THAN SLAUGHTER”

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  100. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    Since you were in the Army, you know that a civilian cannot be gunned down because you feel threatened by them. If Trayvon Martin were a dog, do you think Jorge Zimmerman would have been arrested? The sad truth is that in many cases a dog is treated better than a black man.

    I do NOT think that crack heads (or any drug user) deserves to be beat. The War on Drugs is causing a lot more problems than it is fixing. A lot of people being locked up are not violent criminals, and the drug laws are making things worse. The War on Drugs needs to be reworked. Most of the non-violent criminals do not need to be beatdown.

    I am not a Republican. You would call me a right wing nut because of some of my opinions. The Republicans would call me a liberal or a nut because of some of my opinions. I call them like I see them, and I am not trying to make anybody happy. Right is right. Wrong is wrong, and I try to keep it straight.

    I am not politically correct. Most of the people who were commenting earlier about racism are white liberals, and they are politically correct. They have no idea of what they are talking about. They will try to make you feel good. I do not care how you feel. I am going to treat you like a man. Not a black man, and not an African American man. The difference is that they will roll-up the windows, lock the doors, and drive like hell to get out of your neighborhood. There are not many places that I will not go. People are people, and after five or ten minutes, I usually find something in common with most people.

    I define a racist as anybody who wants something bad to happen to someone based upon race. A racist is not going to change. A bigot is someone who pre-judges someone based upon race. A bigot does not want anything bad to happen to someone based upon race, but because of the bigot’s actions, something bad does happen to somebody based upon race.

    I offered a specific solution to a specific problem, and it will work fast. For a lot of the others problems, it is going to take time. It is like a broken leg. It takes time. For police shooting black, brown, and white men, accusing everybody of racism does not help. Does it matter if the shooting is done by a non-racist? I am more concerned with the innocent dead man, and this includes cases of non-police shootings. A 16 year old teenager should not be dead because he was walking through a neighborhood. It should not matter what his race, and that is why I am not politically correct.

    The War on Drugs has filled the prisons with criminals who are non-violent, and once you have a drug related convection, you are pretty much screwed. Getting a job will be difficult at best, but prison time is just the cost of doing business to anybody in the drug game. The criminal justice system has numerous problems for a black man and a poor man. I do not have the time to go into the problems, but they are more complex than most people understand. Republicans do not like my stand about the War on Drugs.

    I am not responsible for my BROTHER. I am responsible to fight all INJUSTICE that my BROTHER is subjected to. I am responsible to RESPECT my BROTHER as a PERSON. My BROTHER is a HUMAN, and he MUST be treated as a HUMAN. My BROTHER MUST receive EQUAL treatment under the law.

    I can only do my little part. I would like to see a lot of the racism charges knocked off. Does it matter if an innocent man is killed by a racist? Is the dead man any less dead if he was killed by a non-racist? I would like to see the Martin family and their lawyer used as an example. I have little about the racial aspect of the case from them, but I am sure that they can see it. They want justice for their son. PERIOD. Not white justice, and not black justice. They want equal justice. Trayvon Martin is my BROTHER, and I must fight for him to have EQUAL justice.

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  101. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: See I told you we see things through the same eyes.

    To add.A racist is not only a white man.What we want for all man kind is equal treatment under the law.

    In conclusion,We must fight BUT, the right battle.We must stand up right as humans in all phases of life. Like you, I stand for ALL that is right and forbid all that is wrong.It keeps me in trouble down here in AR.

    I pray that this message find you and your loved one’s well. As for me , you know me, STANDING TALL AND FIGHTING BACK!!.

    My brother you want here from me for a while, but keep putting the info out there,they are out there waiting to here from you.

    May the Peace and Blessing from God be with you and yours .

    PEACE

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  102. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    We have a lot in common. It is just a matter of figuring it out. Two guys who have different teams can still have a beer.

    You really should read up on Minister Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. I disagree with a lot of what they say, but they do have the black man’s back. Republicans and Democrats think I am crazy to respect Minister Farrakhan and the NOI.

    Take care. It has been good, and maybe somebody reading this has learned something.

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  103. TOO TALL says:

    @TastyBits: Yea I notice you have quoted the Minster a couple of times.Yes the Nation has come a long way I have grown a lot sence those days. But my roots will always be with the Nation but, I only worship Allah .That’s one of the reason why I enjoyed our back and forth. I know you understand well what I was playing with.The Minster is more ….. well he got pazas with the truth but its still the truth. Our concept is the same that’s where the word Nation come from, at one time, we was doing imports and exports ,had ships………..

    PEACE

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  104. TastyBits says:

    @TOO TALL

    I am a Christian, but I think that the NOI has a good way of living. I know there is controversy about the Malcolm X assassination, but I have not seen anything violent from them. Black, brown, and white men would do well to follow their way of living. You do not have to become a Muslim to live a healthy and positive life. I like Minister Farrakhan because he is not making money from the misery of others.

    You and I disagree about the extent of racism, but we agree that it is much larger than it should be. We agree that racism has not gone away, and we agree that the life of a black, brown, or white man should be equal. We also agree that in many cases a black (or brown) man is viewed as less than an equal white man.

    I think that the bigger problem is poverty, but poverty affects black folks at a higher rate than it should. This makes a lot of poverty problems appear as race problems. Prisons have a much higher number of black men than they should. Some of this is race based, but a lot is economic based. A poor man cannot afford a lawyer, and he must use the public defender. The public defender does not have the money to bring in experts or do DNA tests. The public defender advises to take a plea deal, and the poor man goes to prison. For somebody who can afford a lawyer, the outcome will be a lot better.

    The problem is that a lot of people make money by keeping people in poverty. Anybody who is born into poverty has little chance of getting out, and since many black folks are living in poverty, it looks like a racial issue. In my opinion, anybody who makes money while helping the poor is part of the problem. This includes Democrats. Mitt Romney is not going to do much to make your life better, but has President Obama done any better?

    Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandhi, Mother Teresa, and Nelson Mandela were not getting rich trying to help disadvantaged people, and they seemed to make a lot more progress.

    Much of what Minister Farrakhan says is the same for white or brown poor people, and I do not see him making money off of the poor. He would probably disagree with me, but I can respect him.

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