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Edward Snowden Leaves Hong Kong For Russia And Parts Unknown

Edward Snowden

While most of the United States was asleep, Edward Snowden, the NSA contractor who leaked information of the agency’s surveillance programs, left Hong Kong even as formal criminal charges are pending against him in the United States:

HONG KONG — The Hong Kong government announced on Sunday afternoon that it had allowed the departure from its territory of Edward J. Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who has acknowledged disclosing classified documents about United States government surveillance of Internet and telephone communications around the world.

The government statement said that Hong Kong had informed the United States of Mr. Snowden’s departure.

A Moscow-based reservations agent at Aeroflot, Russia’s national airline, said that Mr. Snowden was aboard flight SU213 to Moscow, with a scheduled arrival there a little after 5 p.m. Moscow time. The reservations agent said that Mr. Snowden was traveling on a one-way ticket to Moscow.

Mr. Snowden’s final destination was unclear, but there were signs that it might be beyond Moscow. The Russian foreign ministry said that Mr. Snowden appeared to be making a connection in Moscow to another destination, but did not say where.

Russia’s Interfax news service, citing a “person familiar with the situation,” reported that Mr. Snowden would remain in transit at an airport in Moscow for “several hours” pending an onward flight to Cuba, and would therefore not formally cross the Russian border or be subject to detention. Someone close to Mr. Snowden later told Interfax that he planned to continue on to Caracas, Venezuela.

“He chose such a complex route in the hope that he will not be detained and he will be able to reach his final destination — Venezuela — unhindered,” the person said.

WikiLeaks, the organization that released extensive classified American diplomatic communications three years ago, said in a statement on its Twitter feed that it had “assisted Mr. Snowden’s political asylum in a democratic country, travel papers” and safe exit from Hong Kong, and said in a follow-up Twitter posting that, “Mr. Snowden is currently over Russian airspace accompanied by WikiLeaks legal advisers.”

The Aeroflot agent said that Mr. Snowden is traveling with one other person, with the surname Harrison, but the agent declined to release the other traveler’s first name, saying that she did not have the authorization to do so. The closest adviser to Julian Assange, who orchestrated the release of the Wikileaks diplomatic cables three years ago, is named Sarah Harrison, prompting speculation that she was the Harrison on the flight with Mr. Snowden.

His departure from Hong Kong was a setback for the United States, which had been pressing Hong Kong to surrender him to American law enforcement officials. The Hong Kong government said on Sunday, in its first detailed statement about Mr. Snowden, that the United States had made a legal request for the issue of a provisional warrant of arrest against Mr. Snowden, but that the Hong Kong government had concluded that the request “did not fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law.”

The statement said that Hong Kong had requested more information from the United States but had not received it. Because the government “has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr. Snowden from leaving Hong Kong,” the statement said.

Other media outlets are being far less precise about Snowden’s possible destination after he arrives in Moscow (if the flight is on schedule, he will land shortly after 9:00am ET), but a route that passes through Cuba that ends in Venezuela or, possibly Ecuador, would certainly make sense if its Snowden’s intention to find refuge in a country that either lacks an Extradition Treaty with the United States or would be unlikely to comply with a request to turn him over to U.S. authorities. As it turns out, the  United States does have an Extradition Treaty withVenezuela  and even one with Cuba assuming the one entered into in 1926 is still considered to be in effect, but given the current state of relations between the U.S. and those nations it seems rather unlikely that authorities in Havana and Caracas are going to be at all willing to comply with an extradition request. There is no extradition treaty with Russia, though, and one gets the impression that it would be very difficult for the U.S. to get the Russians to turn Snowden over during the brief time he is apparently scheduled to be in Moscow. This seems to be especially true given that it’s unlikely that Snowden’s passage through Russia would not be happening without the knowledge and approval of that nation’s leadership.

All of this comes just two days after news was made public that Snowden  had been formally charged in Federal Court with violations of the Espionage Act and other crimes arising out of his admitted leaking of classified documents from the National Security Agency regarding its data mining and other surveillance programs. Just yesterday, it was reported that the United States had formally requested authorities in Hong Kong to take Snowden into custody based on these charges in anticipation of his extradition to the United States. As noted in the article above, though, Hong Kong said in the statement it released today that the request from the United States was lacking in sufficiency in some way or another, although the statement did not say specifically what that defect is. Indeed, that’s exactly what this press release from the government says:

The HKSAR Government today (June 23) issued the following statement on Mr Edward Snowden:

Mr Edward Snowden left Hong Kong today (June 23) on his own accord for a third country through a lawful and normal channel.

The US Government earlier on made a request to the HKSAR Government for the issue of a provisional warrant of arrest against Mr Snowden. Since the documents provided by the US Government did not fully comply with the legal requirements under Hong Kong law, the HKSAR Government has requested the US Government to provide additional information so that the Department of Justice could consider whether the US Government’s request can meet the relevant legal conditions. As the HKSAR Government has yet to have sufficient information to process the request for provisional warrant of arrest, there is no legal basis to restrict Mr Snowden from leaving Hong Kong.

The HKSAR Government has already informed the US Government of Mr Snowden’s departure.

Meanwhile, the HKSAR Government has formally written to the US Government requesting clarification on earlier reports about the hacking of computer systems in Hong Kong by US government agencies. The HKSAR Government will continue to follow up on the matter so as to protect the legal rights of the people of Hong Kong.

There have already been statements this morning about what this means for the relationship between the U.S. and Hong Kong, but in some sense it’s academic. Snowden is gone, and Hong Kong likely would not have acted the way it did without some authorization from the Chinese, who do not have an Extradition Treaty with the U.S.

The role that Wikileaks is playing in all of this became apparent when the organization released this statement:

Mr Edward Snowden, the American whistleblower who exposed evidence of a global surveillance regime conducted by US and UK intelligence agencies, has left Hong Kong legally. He is bound for a democratic nation via a safe route for the purposes of asylum, and is being escorted by diplomats and legal advisors from WikiLeaks.

Mr Snowden requested that WikiLeaks use its legal expertise and experience to secure his safety. Once Mr Snowden arrives at his final destination his request will be formally processed.

Former Spanish Judge Mr Baltasar Garzon, legal director of Wikileaks and lawyer for Julian Assange has made the following statement:

“The WikiLeaks legal team and I are interested in preserving Mr Snowden’s rights and protecting him as a person. What is being done to Mr Snowden and to Mr Julian Assange – for making or facilitating disclosures in the public interest – is an assault against the people”.

So, it appears for now at least that Edward Snowden may be slipping out of the grasp of American law enforcement.  As for Snowden himself, I do have to say that he’s not exactly helping his public relations cause by seeking protection from nations like China, Russia, Cuba, and Venezuela. Unlike many, I don’t condemn his as a traitor and I think there’s at least some merit to the argument that he has made public things that the American people had a right to know about. At the same time, though, he clearly broke the law and ought to stand trial for his actions. Whether he ever will one day, though, is another question.

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. fred says:

    President Obama must demand his return by Russia pronto. No more pussy footing with Russia or any other country on Snowden who has put our national security at grave risk. Pres Obama has been very weak with congress and because of that our national prestige and reputation has suffered all across the world. He has to put that right by making sure every one knows our national security remains paramount. Start with strong action against Russia to get Snowden back today. The President has extraordinary powers even when congress obstructs and it is time Pres Obama uses these powers for our country’s good.

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 23

  2. Caj says:

    How nice! A coward roaming all over the world after giving out information about security of the US! Hero, this guy is no hero. He’s a disgrace to the country and should be brought back here so justice can be served.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 9

  3. Mikey says:

    I do have to say that he’s not exactly helping his public relations cause by seeking protection from nations like China, Russia, Cuba, and Venezuela.

    A man is known by the company he keeps.

    Ask the journalist Anna Politskovskaya how things go for Russians who dig up and reveal information critical of that government.

    Wait, you can’t, because THEY KILLED HER. But you know, even though there was a real threat to her life, she stayed in Moscow, she didn’t run like this coward did.

    Sadly, far too many Americans will still consider Snowden a hero even if he is granted asylum by one of these censorious governments.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 15 Thumb down 8

  4. @fred:

    The United States has no extradition treaty with Russia so, they are under no obligation to hold him. Would they if the request was made as a means to not sour relations with the US? I guess we’ll find out in the next 24 hours

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  5. Gustopher says:

    As for Snowden himself, I do have to say that he’s not exactly helping his public relations cause by seeking protection from nations like China, Russia, Cuba, and Venezuela. Unlike many, I don’t condemn his as a traitor and I think there’s at least some merit to the argument that he has made public things that the American people had a right to know about. At the same time, though, he clearly broke the law and ought to stand trial for his actions.

    Do you think he would get a fair and just trial? And what constitutes fair and just in this case? Is it enough to simply determine that he broke the law, or would it not be justice without taking into account the nature of the information he has exposed?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 3

  6. Bob @ Youngstown says:

    I’m becoming more intrigued with the “Greenwald as a co-conspirator” concept. His tweeted response to David Gregory’s question this morning makes me more suspicious then ever as to whether Greenwald is a journalist or is writer with an agenda.

    As to Snowden’s flight from justice (can you cal it anything else?), he must be on an emotional high. He has been able to thumb his nose at US justice , and up till now gotten away with it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 7

  7. michael reynolds says:

    If Putin gives us Snowden he can keep that Super Bowl ring.

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 3

  8. stonetools says:

    @Doug Mataconis:

    Unlike many, I don’t condemn his as a traitor and I think there’s at least some merit to the argument that he has made public things that the American people had a right to know about.

    What exactly has he made public that we didn’t know before?
    That the NSA data mines our phone logs? Reported in 2006.
    That we spy on foreigners? Everyone not only knows that, but EXPECTS the government to do that.
    The claim that government routinely reads our emails and listens to our phone calls?Debunked for the most part.
    What about stirring up debate? These issues have been debated and voted upon a couple of times, most recently in 2011. Guess what, the public seems OK with the current regime. They may not like some aspects of the current surveillance system. But they reject Snowden’s (and some civil libertarian’s) case that the system of electronic surveillance should be dismantled altogether.
    So what’s left? A guy who broke some laws and ruined his life for very little. Now Putin intends to use him as a bargaining chip against the USA (China either didn’t want him or got what they wanted out of him). I think we can dismiss the idea that Putin cares about transparency in spy systems.
    My guess is that Putin trades him for concessions in Syria or elsewhere. If Putin doesn’t get what he wants, Snowden is on his way to Cuba or Venezuela for another round of bargaining.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 2

  9. Andre Kenji says:

    Most extradition treaties do not treat “espionage” or anything like that as extraditable offense, many countries usually treats “political” crimes as different from crimes motivated by profit, and many times countries simply shows the middle finger.

    In Latin America, I bet that even Mexico, Panama or Colombia would not extradite Snowden.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  10. Andre Kenji says:

    @fred:

    President Obama must demand his return by Russia pronto

    Ah, ah, ah, ah.. You are so funny…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  11. al-Ameda says:

    @stonetools:

    What exactly has he made public that we didn’t know before?
    That the NSA data mines our phone logs? Reported in 2006.
    That we spy on foreigners? Everyone not only knows that, but EXPECTS the government to do that.

    It causes me to wonder why so many consider Snowden to be a hero, ostensibly for telling us what we already knew.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1

  12. Andre Kenji says:

    The Le Figaro newspaper is saying that he requested asylum in Ecuador. It´s not so much democratic…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  13. Spartacus says:

    @fred:

    Start with strong action against Russia to get Snowden back today.

    What strong actions do you propose the President take and what should the President do after that if Russia still doesn’t hand over Snowden?

    @stonetools:

    What exactly has he made public that we didn’t know before?

    Doesn’t this mean that Snowden has caused absolutely no harm whatsoever to the U.S.?

    That we spy on foreigners? Everyone not only knows that, but EXPECTS the government to do that.

    Apparently our government doesn’t think that everyone expects the U.S. to spy on foreigners. The Snowden disclosures about U.S. spying on China were made while Xi Jinping, the President of China, was here visiting with President Obama. It was reported that during that visit Obama told Jinping that China needs to stop its cyber-spying on the U.S. Why would the U.S. make a public display of telling China to stop spying on the U.S. at the very same time the U.S. is secretly spying on China? If the U.S. believes everyone (including the Chinese) already knows it’s spying on foreign countries, why would the U.S. think it could shame China into stopping its espionage even though the U.S. plans to continue spying on China? Did the U.S. think this public demand of China would have any effect on China’s conduct?

    Obama’s reprimand of China was made not for the purpose of getting China to stop its spying, but to shape public opinion about China. The govt would try this tactic only if it believed there are many people who don’t suspect the U.S. is spying on foreigners.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

  14. Spartacus says:

    Once again, I totally screwed up the blockquotes, but you should get my meaning.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  15. Matt Bernius says:

    @Spartacus:
    I fixed those blockquotes for you. Let me know if I got it wrong.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  16. bill says:

    @fred: after hong kong snubbed him i doubt if putin will show obama any respect-he’s “weak” as far as foreign relations go. i wonder if snowden is revered like assange is? tough pill to swallow there.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 2

  17. Spartacus says:

    @Matt Bernius:

    Thanks, Matt. That’s awesome. Is there something I’m doing wrong?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  18. al-Ameda says:

    @Spartacus:

    just highlight the quoted text that you pasted into your reply, and then click on b-quote – should do the trick.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  19. stonetools says:

    @Spartacus:

    Doesn’t this mean that Snowden has caused absolutely no harm whatsoever to the U.S.?

    I would agree that what Snowden has revealed so far has not caused damage to the USA. I don’t know what’s on his laptop. Unless he’s an idiot, he has some stuff in reserve for this kind of situation.

    Apparently our government doesn’t think that everyone expects the U.S. to spy on foreigners.

    Anyone who doesn’t think our government doesn’t spy on foreigners is a fool or hopelessly naive. Americans have been spying on foreign governments since day one, hour one. I’m betting George Washington had spies in Britain in 1776. I’m betting nine out of ten Americans not only think we are spying on China, but approve of it, and think the government would not be doing its duty if it wasn’t spying on China-and that would include card carrying members of the ACLU.
    Now are governments hypocritical about that? Sure-that’s just part of the game. If this shocks you, guess what -we don’t live in Fairy Gum Drop Land, where its always sunshine and rainbows and everyone rides around on pet unicorns all day long.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 2

  20. Spartacus says:

    @al-Ameda:
    thanks!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  21. Spartacus says:

    @stonetools:

    But what is the purpose of being hypocritical about this? The U.S. certainly isn’t fooling the Chinese?

    The hypocrisy is intended to shape public opinion. So, the govt creates this deception not for the purpose of decreasing Chinese espionage, but for the purpose of manipulating the public into believing something that the public would not otherwise believe if the public had the actual facts. And for this, we are supposed to punish Snowden?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  22. Matt Bernius says:

    @Spartacus:

    Thanks, Matt. That’s awesome. Is there something I’m doing wrong?

    You were not properly closing your blockquotes. The second ones are missing the “/”

    What @al-Ameda suggests works great if you’re even not sure about the syntax. You can also use the “Close Tags” button above.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  23. @michael reynolds:

    That Super Bowl ring is not yours to tell Putin he can keep.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  24. Tyrell says:

    @stonetools: I am still hoping that he will give out some information about Area 51 and government UFO files.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  25. Tillman says:

    What I love is how all the righteous civil libertarians are saying the news media is ignoring what Snowden leaked in favor of covering his flight from America and around the world.

    While they still would have done it to an extent, it would have been much harder if Snowden had turned himself in at the beginning. This is why I said the dude’s not a hero. His flight has become a sensation to be viewed, a distraction from why he’s being pursued in the first place. He wanted to expose the surveillance state, but no one cares about that when you’ve got a real life “Bourne Identity” scenario playing out. Wikileaks has a penchant for this kind of drama as well.

    Instead of exposing the theater for the facade it is and shining a light on the truth, they just want to be better-paid actors.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  26. Mr. X says:

    @Doug Mataconis:

    Hey Doug,

    Glad that you like me got a taste of the Craig Pirrong/Twitter groupies cult. He’s a fake libertarian anti-civil liberties fanatic obsessed with Russia, hence his rage at the slightest mention of Assange, Greenwald et al. He has deep connections to the Chicago Combine’s CME made men (aka the Democratic Illinois Mafia’s GOP bagmen) and has repeatedly made excuses denying any CME responsibility for the MF Global heist by JP Morgan of 1.2 billion in customer funds. He damns Alex Jones and other conspiracy theorists while himself insisting that ZeroHedge is a Bulgarian KGB plot. I think if he saw Ann Barnhardt in person he’d crap his pants. :)

    Pirrong proudly links, as you may have noticed from his Twitter timeline, to this article he wrote in early 2012 denouncing Ron Paul as equivalent to Pol Pot and ‘Paulbots’ as the Khmer Rouge.

    http://streetwiseprofessor.com/?p=5898

    He is in short, a fanatical useful idiot for this regime, who will rationalize any abuse of our civil liberties so long as it is justified in the name of protecting us from the bearded men in caves or Vlad the Bad’s eternal Evil Empire. I have long suspected that should the Patriot movement start stockpiling Izmash-made semi autos or Tula-manufactured Wolf brand ammo he will serve his DHS purpose when the time comes and say Putin is fomenting U.S. insurrection and therefore blackbagging/droning the “Russian-backed insurrectionists” from Texas to Montana is justified — including some of his neighbors in Houston. Think back to the yuppie-ish collabortationist (Republican) mayor of the small Colorado town in Red Dawn who watches the townsfolk get mowed down in reprisal for the Wolverines guerilla warfare. That’s Pirrong in five to ten years should there be a Civil War 2.0.

    Incidentally, I don’t think Snowden had any other choice but to surrender and disappear into a black hole for two years or more like Manning. He’s now caught in no-man’s land sadly and the Russians are going to exploit his stateless position until he’s passed on to the Ecuadorians. Direct flight from HK to Ecuador, Cuba or Venezuela was not in the cards once his passport was revoked. Seems he needed a transit country with close relations with the end country and Russia fit the bill.

    That said, his case has become harder to make in the public square because FSB/SVR surely got a whack at scanning/copying all contents of the four laptops he’s reportedly carrying. Hopefully if the only data he took with him was regarding domestic spying and the HK spying, it won’t be much use to Moscow.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  27. Mr. X says:

    Nonetheless, even if the regime succeeds in discrediting Snowden as a ‘Russian agent’ I don’t care, because more whistleblowers will come forward like Tice with hard evidence that NSA is basically acting as the American Stasi and compiling dirt on/blackmailing our entire political and judicial class in D.C.

    [Sic] misspelled collaborationist in the above post. End of transmission for me.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  28. Mr. X says:

    @stonetools:

    “The claim that government routinely reads our emails and listens to our phone calls?Debunked for the most part.” Not hardly. Read Tice. NSA was spying on Obama in 2004. Unless Angelo Codevilla is right and Obama signed, ahem, certain permanent clearance agreements as conditions of employment upon leaving Occidental college in the early 1980s when he worked for a CIA front company, the NSA is spying on our politicians for fundamentally political reasons.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  29. Mr. X says:

    @stonetools:

    “The claim that government routinely reads our emails and listens to our phone calls?Debunked for the most part.” Not hardly. Read Tice. NSA was spying on Obama in 2004. Unless Angelo Codevilla is right and Obama signed, ahem, certain permanent clearance agreements as conditions of employment upon leaving Occidental college in the early 1980s when he worked for a CIA front company, the NSA is spying on our politicians for fundamentally political reasons. American Stasi all the way.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 1

  30. michael reynolds says:

    @Mr. X:

    I think calling yourself “Mr. X” is an excellent way to avoid attracting NSA scrutiny.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  31. Rick Almeida says:

    @fred:

    Yeah, DEMAND! That always works.

    Wait, then what?

    Please?

    Pretty please?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  32. bill says:

    @Kathy Kattenburg: putin is keeping it, that’s not an issue as it’s on public display somewhere over there. he offered to buy him a new one already.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  33. @bill:

    Putin must keep the Super Bowl ring because he’s put it on public display. And besides, he offered to replace it.

    I had to repeat your justification because I couldn’t quite believe it. Yet, you actually said it.

    Amazing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  34. @bill:

    Putin must keep the Super Bowl ring [THAT HE STOLE] because he’s put it on public display. And besides, he offered to replace [THE RING THAT HE STOLE].

    I had to repeat your justification because I couldn’t quite believe it. Yet, you actually said it.

    Amazing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  35. Mr. X says:

    Incidentally, the Professor Craig Pirrong groupie who goes by the Twitter handle @LibertyLynx is ranting about how much Greenwald, Assange et al hate Israel and love Russia. I wonder if @LibertyLynx has ever set foot in the real Israel, you know the one with nearly a million Russian speakers, Israeli passport holders on the Russian government funded Skolkovo board, and the country that last year rolled out the red carpet for Vladimir Putin and his 200 strong entourage at the old King David Hotel in Jerusalem? You mean that Israel that stands toe to toe with America against the Eternal Evil Empire while selling Putin’s military drones and likely other high technology developed at American taxpayer expense? But now of course I’m an anti-Semite for saying the above when I have actually been to Israel and enjoyed my time there, and even looked down on the Syrian-held territory from the Golan Heights. Where the Al Heart and Lung Eaters Brigades Sen. McCain supports would be pouring rockets onto if McCain had his way. The chutzpah of these people claiming to speak for all Jews and all Israelis who must presumably HATE HATE HATE Russia eternally and love the jihadist Syrian rebels who would behead them for being Jewish never ceases to amaze me. They call Wikileaks a cult while praising/corresponding lovingly with the cult like lizardoids of Little Green Footballs, whose dear leader went from backing Dubya in 2004 and debunking the Col. Killian memos to worshipping Obama and the NSA, with the only commonality being blind support for whoever is in Power.

    No it is Craig Pirrong, @LibertyLynx, Catherine Fitzaptrick and whichever DHS troll who runs that Donnie Darko avatar Twitter feed that are the koolaid drinking cult members. They worship the three letter agencies as their gods instead of Obama, that’s the only difference between them and the fanatic D’s.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  36. Mr. X says:

    @michael reynolds: No illusions sir that the NSA doesn’t know who I am. It’s more to anonymously fight back against the DHS/State Dept. paid hacks who masquerade as great pro-Russian democracy advocates and are in fact merely fed gov worshippers of the fake Right as opposed to fake Left variety.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  37. bill says:

    @Kathy Kattenburg: it is what it is, that’s the story that kraft uses too ( when not grandstanding). why do you think we never heard that story before, when was the last time the pats won a ring? yes, it’s been a while.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  38. Arguable topic…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0