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‘Joe The Plumber’: Dead Kids Don’t Trump My Right To Own Guns

Facepalm

Samuel Wurzelbacher, who became famous in conservative circles as “Joe The Plumber” during the 2008 Presidential campaign, had what may well be the most offensive reaction to the massacre at U.C.-Santa Barbara that I’ve seen to date:

Samuel Wurzelbacher gave his condolences this week to the families of the victims of the mass shooting near the University of California, Santa Barbara. But no tragedy is going to stop “Joe The Plumber” from defending the Second Amendment.

In an open letter published Tuesday on the website Barbwire, Wurzelbacher went out of his way to explain to the victims’ parents that the deaths won’t undermine his “Constitutional rights.”

“I am sorry you lost your child. I myself have a son and daughter and the one thing I never want to go through, is what you are going through now,” wrote Wurzelbacher, who became something of a mascot for John McCain’s failed 2008 presidential campaign. “But: As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

Wurzelbacher singled out Richard Martinez, whose son Christopher was one of the six students killed by Elliot Rodger in Isla Vista, Calif. Since the deadly rampage, Martinez has twice railedagainst politicians and the National Rifle Association for the failure to pass new gun laws after the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre.

“There are no critical words for a grieving father. He can say whatever he wants and blame whoever he’d like – it’s okay by me. You can’t take a step in his shoes – at least I can’t,” Wurzelbacher wrote. “But the words and images of Mr. Martinez blaming ‘the proliferation of guns’, lobbyists, politicians, etc.; will be exploited by gun-grab extremists as are all tragedies involving gun violence and the mentally ill by the anti-Second Amendment Left.”

Dude, you should have just gone with “The are no critical words for a grieving father.” Then you would have saved yourself from being revealed as a cold, insensitive jerk.

Update: Joe Gandelman at The Moderate Voice has this to say about Wurzelbacher:

Samuel Wurzelbacher, the “Joe the Plumber” mascot of Republican Sen. John McCain’s failed 2008 Presidential bid, offered ostensible condolences to the grieving families, but just couldn’t help himself from swiping at devastated parent Richard Martinez. Shortly after learning that his 20-year-old son Christopher was shot dead by Rodger at a convenience store, Martinez blasted the National Rifle Association and called Congress’ politicians “rudderless idiots” for not acting on gun control after the December 12, 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary school shooting, in which 20 children and six adult staffers died.

“Joe the Plumber” apparently fell into a septic tank, because the stench of Wurzelbacher’s words could be smelled for miles: “I am sorry you lost your child. I myself have a son and daughter and the one thing I never want to go through, is what you are going through now, ” he said to cushion his coming blow. “But: As harsh as this sounds — your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

Wurzelbacher thus joined the parade of Republicans seemingly racing to distance themselves from anything resembling “compassionate” conservatism — even when faced with the unspeakable grief of a father who suddenly lost his son and best friend. How have we gotten to a point where ideologists and partisans are so imprinted that they can’t even let a parent grieve but must immediately lash out and try to discredit him? FYI: Martinez never called for a total BAN on guns. Just safeguards.

Of course, one can disagree with Martinez on policy without being a complete jerk about it the way Wurzelbacher was. The one good thing I can report is that I’ve seen many people on the right distance themselves from Joe The Plumber over this. Perhaps it will teach them a lesson.

Oh, who am I kidding?

 

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. Scott says:

    Douchebaggery has now become a profession. Seriously, who the ef asked for his opinion.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 37 Thumb down 1

  2. OzarkHillbilly says:

    He just said what the rest of the 2nd Amendmenters think, revealing that none of them can think beyond their own personal shortcomings that they are desperately trying to compensate for.***

    *** to be honest, I don’t get it. I am a gun owner and I just don’t get it. There is something missing in their psyche. It showed itself most completely in their outrage that the legal owner of a gun could be charged with murder over the killing of an unarmed teenager. They are their own worst enemies. If/when we lose our “gun rights”, they will be the ones to blame. They and they alone. What they do not seem to understand is that this battle will be won with ballots, not bullets. And they are outnumbered by quite a bit.

    (my powers of google are lacking and I am unable to find credible #s for voters and gun owners)

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 33 Thumb down 2

  3. KM says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    They are their own worst enemies. If/when we lose our “gun rights”, they will be the ones to blame.

    +1000

    Whatever happened to sanity in ownership? The idea that this is a terrible privilege and should be treated with all the gravitas and respect associated with possessing a tool that can kill? Responsibility and agency being an absolute requirement, not an occasional afterthought? That training and oversight is a bad thing somehow and that an ole’ moron should be able to just grab and go.

    Freaking children with toys. All fun and games till someone loses an eye and then its mmmoooommmmm it not my fault!!! You can’t take my toys – Imma call CPS on you so there! I have rights!!!!

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 3

  4. mantis says:

    Just another scumbag hero of the right, rushing out to scream at the mourners of dead children. Again.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 1

  5. Xerxes says:

    @KM:

    Joe the Plumber is an asshole. Period. A grieving parent is ALWAYS off limits regardless of what is said!

    But I feel compelled to respond to your post here, KM. You speak of “sanity in ownership”. Well how is that not a goal for law abiding gun owners? The problem some gun rights people have in this “wave the bloody shirt” gun control debate is that activists blame the tool rather than the mind that decided to use the tool for evil intent. How come we have no nationwide policy on mental health treatment? How come we have no nationwide policy that could allow for involuntary commitment into mental health facilities for things other than what is interpreted as “imminent danger”?

    The truth is: no gun control measure would have stopped this shooting at UCSB. The shooter did not use an assault weapon, so an AWB is meaningless. The shooter passed background checks to acquire a firearm because he had never been committed in any mental hospital nor had a felony conviction record. Not to mention the sad reality that while the media is focused on 3 victims of fatal gunshot wounds, there has been little focus on the other 3 victims from fatal stab wounds. Also the half dozen victims run over by the maniac’s car. That massacre involved 3 weapons (one was a gun but the other two were the car and a knife).

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 23

  6. Tillman says:

    “I am sorry you lost your child. I myself have a son and daughter and the one thing I never want to go through, is what you are going through now,” wrote Wurzelbacher, who became something of a mascot for John McCain’s failed 2008 presidential campaign. “But: As harsh as this sounds – your dead kids don’t trump my Constitutional rights.”

    That’s just…that’s just swell.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  7. C. Clavin says:

    Face-Palm or not……This is perfectly consistent with other firearm fanboys…many of whom comment regularly here…who believe no one has a right to life…but they have a right to unfettered gun access.
    Joe the Plumber…a liar and tax evader…put it best himself in a quote not included above:

    As a father, husband and a man, it is my responsibility to protect my family.

    Emphasis mine.
    Sorry Joe…real men tell the truth and pay their taxes.
    I can only speak for myself…but it’s not a gun that makes me a man, and I know many men that protect their families without relying on guns. Your mileage may vary.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

  8. Tillman says:

    @mantis: It’d be easier to ridicule the Plumber if one of those mourners hadn’t explicitly called out the NRA, thus activating the gun rights’ crowd’s immune response of douchebaggery.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  9. KM says:

    @Xerxes:

    But I feel compelled to respond to your post here, KM. You speak of “sanity in ownership”. Well how is that not a goal for law abiding gun owners?

    The thing is many pro-gun activists don’t act that way. Their stated goal is no restrictions. Joe just put voice to what the mainstream pro position is: That their constitutional right to carry trumps your rights, even to live, each and every time. Don’t try and dismiss this guy as a lone cray-cray in the wilderness when the head of the NRA makes extremely similar (if not more tactfully worded) sentiments and it is the standard fallback position. Sanity is understanding there is no such thing as an absolute right. Free speech, religion, guns – the whole sacred cow of the Bill of Rights has to be able to function in the real world where your rights come in direct conflict with the rights of others. Sanity in ownership is understanding no man is an island but the crap that guy does hits you on the way to the fan.

    The shooter passed background checks to acquire a firearm because he had never been committed in any mental hospital nor had a felony conviction record.

    I’m going to stop you right there. If the background check was inadequate to discover what was a clearly deranged individual who was documenting his own crazy, doesn’t that mean the background check should be improved and expanded? Instead of being a one-time thing, it should be a comprehensive and frequent (yearly?) reevaluation a la drivers license with a great deal more depth then “Hey, never arrested so you’re good!”? Maybe a psych eval or two, a physical and range recert – prove you’re good to go and not a potential threat.

    Kind of a big hole right? We should address that. Can’t catch all the crazies in advance as no system is perfect but we can do a damn sight better then what we are right now. All lawful gun owners should totally be behind that as it helps protect them and society as a whole – limit the number of “bad guys”.

    So…… why aren’t they?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 22 Thumb down 0

  10. C. Clavin says:

    @Xerxes:

    The truth is: no gun control measure would have stopped this shooting at UCSB.

    Sorry…that’s BS…plain and simple.
    There are no gun control measures…watered down by our corrupt political system replete with impotent lawmakers and deep pocket gun manufacturer lobbyists…that would have stopped this shooting.
    Actual gun control could stop these events. All we have to do as a society is want to stop these events.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

  11. Tillman says:

    Okay, I’m going to go ahead and be that guy: what the hell is a right to life? Is this just a phrase that’s been coined to contrast with gun rights crazies’ need to cite their Second Amendment rights every time a mass killing happens? Or is there supposed to be an articulable right to life? Is it the same thing the anti-abortion rights crowd cites when talking about fetuses?

    It’s not a legal right, it’s only mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. Are we referring to the Lockean notion, where one’s life is considered part of their property? What?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  12. C. Clavin says:

    Shootings that occured in the week before the Santa Barbara event…via HuffPo:

    Alabama:
    Christopher George Handley was shot to death on May 20.
    James Madden was shot to death on May 17.
    Hassan Johnson, 20, was killed on May 19.
    34-year-old Michael Thornton was killed May 18.

    Arizona:
    Ramon Garcia was shot to death on May 17.
    Charla Faust was shot to death on May 20.
    Faustino Solis Garcia, 23, and Kassandra Medina, 20, were shot to death on May 21.

    Arkansas:
    Douglas Cloyes, 72, was killed in a domestic disturbance on Sunday.
    James Green, 56, was chased out of his apartment and fatally shot on Sunday.

    California:
    A shooting at a barbershop left one dead and three injured
    Sunday night.
    Derrick Whitfield, 23, was shot to death at the Potrero Hill housing complex on May 21.
    Gail Temple, 75, died from a gunshot wound on May 16.
    April Jace, 40, was shot to death on May 20, reportedly by her husband, actor Michael Jace.
    A 26-year old mom was killed by stray bullet in Compton on Tuesday.
    Anthony Johnson, 28, was shot to death on Monday.
    A man shot in Oakland on Monday became the city’s 31st homicide of the year.
    Leonicio Banuelos was shot to death on Saturday.
    Janet Jimenez, 17, “was riding in a car late Friday with friends when someone fired into the vehicle, striking her in the upper torso and killing her.”
    A Stockton, California, shooting and fire left one dead on Sunday.
    A 69-year-old was shot dead by an armed robber on May 16 while hiking with his 76-year-old companion.
    There was a triple shooting in San Bernardino on May 16 that resulted in the deaths of 21-year-old David Lawler, his 20-year-old half brother Terry Freeman and cousin Kavin Johnson.
    Alex Gines, 23 was shot to death on May 17.
    A woman shot to death in Hyde Park in Los Angeles on Monday.

    Colorado:
    Marcus Anthony Armstrong, 44, was shot to death on May 19.

    Florida:
    Clausell Stevens, 23, was shot to death on May 18.
    Alex Mazzan, 20, was shot to death on May 19.
    Frank Carl Jones III was shot to death on May 18.
    Victor Navarro, 24, was shot to death at a barbershop after demanding Xanax and brandishing a weapon.
    Terrell Williams, 30, was reportedly shot to death while in passenger seat of the truck that was not his.

    Georgia:
    Marshal Tucker, 48, was found dead of a gunshot late Monday night.

    Illinois:
    Juwan Williams, 18, was shot on May 18 and died two days later.
    Kayshaun Hall, 17, was shot to death May 19.
    Leonard Goldman, 29, was shot to death on May 19.
    Lewis Jenkins, 38, was shot to death on May 21.
    Brian McKinney, 20, was shot to death on May 22.
    Robert Waldon, 18, was shot to death on May 22.
    Kevin Diaz, 14, was shot to death on May 22.

    Indiana:
    Two men were shot to death at the front door of a home in Indianapolis late Monday night.

    Kentucky:
    Crystal Parker, 25, died from an apparent gunshot wound on May 19. Police arrested and charged her estranged boyfriend.

    Louisiana:
    Early Tuesday morning or late Monday night, a 16-year-old male was shot dead in Tangipahoa Parish.

    Maryland:
    James Lee Butler, 28, was shot (multiple times) and killed on Saturday.
    Davon McLaurin Sr., 37, was shot dead on Wednesday morning.
    John Jackson III, a 40-year-old father of two, was shot to death late last week.
    Rodolfo Miguel Cervantes, 31, was found dead on Friday afternoon.

    Massachusetts:
    Shannon Richardson, 25, was shot several times while walking a street on Wednesday. Taken to a hospital, he was later pronounced dead.

    Michigan:
    Johnny Clyburn, an active duty Air Force sergeant, was shot to death on Tuesday morning. The suspect was a 19-year-old man who was the son of the women he was scheduled to marry.

    Mississippi:
    A man was shot inside a Ford F-250 pickup truck late last week and died of a gunshot wound to the neck.

    Missouri:
    Darrah Lane, 17, and Leon Davis, 27, were found shot to death in a car on May 21.

    Nevada:
    An adult male died from apparent multiple gunshot wounds near the Desert Inn Road on May 22.
    An aspiring rapper named “Hollywood Will” died from a shot in the chest during a fight at a party in the Palms Hotel Casino on Thursday.

    New Mexico:
    Jose Mesa, 27, was shot to death on Sunday. Police arrested 61-year-old Enrique Carmona.

    New York:
    Lamont Smith, 45, was fatally shot near a school on May 21.

    North Carolina:
    Markee Watson, 26, was shot just after 4 a.m. on May 17. Medics pronounced him dead on the scene.
    Gary Lane Jr., 36, was shot and killed early Saturday morning.

    Ohio:
    50-year-old Tyrone Hilton was fatally shot in the head and his 28-year-old son Lamont Quarterman, was shot in the arm. A young girl witnessed the shooting, which happened on Sunday.
    A 28-year-old man was found with gunshot wounds to the chest by police on Monday. He died from his injuries in the hospital.
    21-year-old Raheem Stenson was shot just before midnight on March 17.

    Oklahoma:
    Jesse Lee Taylor, 24, was shot to death on May 18.

    Pennsylvania:
    Tezjuan Taylor, 20, was fatally shot outside a Sunoco gas station early Saturday morning.

    South Carolina:
    Mitzi Larson was shot to death the day after her 42nd birthday on May 17. Her husband has been charged with the murder.
    Tyrone Moore Jr., 21, brother of an NFL star, shot to death May 17 outside a nightclub.
    Shamoray Antonio Robinson, 18, was shot to death on May 18 following an argument at a party.

    Tennessee:
    26-year-old William Brock was fatally shot by his 67-year-old father, Ralph, on Sunday in what was described as a domestic dispute.
    Michael Richard, 47, was killed by the man with whom he was walking on May 23, law enforcement officials allege.

    Texas:
    Two people were shot to death on May 19. The victims were identified as Dylan Headrick, and Rudy Hernandez III
    William Hill, 29, was shot to death at a shopping center on Wednesday.
    A man was shot to death at a northwest Houston hotel on Thursday morning.
    Jennilynn Montana, 6-year-old girl, was fatally shot Sunday.

    Virginia:
    18-year-old Elijah-Juan Zaire Vanness of Hampton, Virginia, was shot to death on May 16.

    Washington:
    Monique V. Williams, 29, was found dead on Monday in what police suspect is a murder-suicide involving her boyfriend.

    Washington, D.C.:
    Simwone Keith Milstead, 36, was shot to death on May 17.
    Antwone Dwayne Tolson, 19, was shot and killed on May 19.
    Ronnell Daniels, 40, was shot and killed on May 19.

    Wisconsin:
    A 34-year-old man from Milwaukee was shot dead on May 17 after what police suspect was a fight.
    One person was shot to death on Saturday in Plover, Wisconsin.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

  13. argon says:

    Joe who?
    Seriously, how are the noises that emerge from this man’s mouth news? He’s like Homer Simpson’s grandpa.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  14. KM says:

    @Tillman:

    You raise an intriguing question, sir. Not a lawyer by a stretch but my best guess would be that the “right to life” is an unspoken legal pretense necessary for law to function. After all, how can one exercise one’s rights if one is not alive? One must be in order to be a human being. A foundational and logical existential assumption then – once one exists, one has the right to attempt to keep on existing as long as one;s will and intent chooses (success not being guaranteed). A primal impulse and the most basic of tautologies – I’m alive so I need to stay alive. Why is murder illegal then? Your actions have artificially ended that attempt against the owner’s will. A violation of agency in its deepest sense. Anything more and I’d need to dust off my philo books….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  15. C. Clavin says:

    @Tillman:
    I’m not sure how that started…you may be correct.
    But for me the point of it is about a balance between 2nd Amendment Rights and Natural Rights…Rights so elemental that they aren’t explicitly mentioned in the Constitution.
    The Right to be able to move about in relative safety.
    The right to go into an establishment and not be fearful that one of the gang of insecure a$$wipes brandishing their penises weapons is going to accidentally shoot me or mine.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  16. mantis says:

    @Tillman:

    It’d be easier to ridicule the Plumber if one of those mourners hadn’t explicitly called out the NRA, thus activating the gun rights’ crowd’s immune response of douchebaggery.

    I’m not ridiculing him; I’m calling him a worthless piece of scum. And it doesn’t matter what the victim’s father said at all. Not Joe is scum regardless.

    The NRA, just like Not Joe the Scumbag, dance with glee in the blood of the victims of their death toys. F*ck them and anyone who supports them.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

  17. C. Clavin says:

    @Tillman:
    Do you think you have a natural right to shop without being shot because some fool can’t control his firearm? Or does the idiots right to bear arms trump your right to shop in relative safety?

    A woman pushing her newborn son in a shopping cart was injured in a freak shooting incident at a Walmart store in Columbus, Ind., according to local media reports.
    Police say a .22-caliber pistol fell from the pants of Tony E. Ward on Saturday evening. When the gun hit the floor, it discharged.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  18. Rob in CT says:

    Two things:

    1) Sam the Not-Plumber has been working the wingnut welfare grift (not terribly successfully) for some time now. This requires that people pay attention to him, which in turn tends to me he needs to say things. He’s not a very smart guy, so what you get tends to be this sorta thing.

    2) This is the honest argument. “Sorry about the injuries and deaths, but this is a constitutional right and my maximalist interpretation of it means no additional gun control.” Many people smarter than Sam the not-Plumber recognize that this sounds bad so they avoid it. But it’s honest.

    One thing the gun rights crowd should theoretically be able to point out is that violence – including gun violence and including spree killings – is down, down, down. Of course, they typically can’t manage this, because it simultaneously undercuts the “I need a gun to defend myself/my family” argument.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

  19. Rafer Janders says:

    @Xerxes:

    The truth is: no gun control measure would have stopped this shooting at UCSB.

    ISLA VISTA, CA—In the days following a violent rampage in southern California in which a lone attacker killed seven individuals, including himself, and seriously injured over a dozen others, citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs reportedly concluded Tuesday that there was no way to prevent the massacre from taking place. “This was a terrible tragedy, but sometimes these things just happen and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop them,” said North Carolina resident Samuel Wipper, echoing sentiments expressed by tens of millions of individuals who reside in a nation where over half of the world’s deadliest mass shootings have occurred in the past 50 years and whose citizens are 20 times more likely to die of gun violence than those of other developed nations. “It’s a shame, but what can we do? There really wasn’t anything that was going to keep this guy from snapping and killing a lot of people if that’s what he really wanted.” At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past five years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  20. Rafer Janders says:

    @Xerxes:

    The truth is: no gun control measure would have stopped this shooting at UCSB.

    Simply false. Under gun control regimes in place in countries such as Great Britain, Australia or Japan, for instance, this man would likely not have been allowed to have any guns, period.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  21. Rafer Janders says:

    @KM:

    I’m going to stop you right there. If the background check was inadequate to discover what was a clearly deranged individual who was documenting his own crazy, doesn’t that mean the background check should be improved and expanded? Instead of being a one-time thing, it should be a comprehensive and frequent (yearly?) reevaluation a la drivers license with a great deal more depth then “Hey, never arrested so you’re good!”? Maybe a psych eval or two, a physical and range recert – prove you’re good to go and not a potential threat.

    And maybe interviewing family and friends and neighbors, a la a security clearance check, to get them to confirm that this is a guy who can be trusted with weapons. Not a lot of lone psychos can pass that.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  22. michael reynolds says:

    I’m grateful for the honesty. This is the real gun cult. This is the sickness we are dealing with. This is the narcissism and selfishness, the thuggish mentality of the gun cult. Good for Joe: spill it out there for all of us to see.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 23 Thumb down 0

  23. C. Clavin says:

    @C. Clavin:
    By the way…the gun owner in this case was not charged.

    A woman pushing her newborn son in a shopping cart was injured in a freak shooting incident at a Walmart store in Columbus, Ind., according to local media reports.
    Police say a .22-caliber pistol fell from the pants of Tony E. Ward on Saturday evening. When the gun hit the floor, it discharged.

    Can someone explain to me why that is not criminal negligence?

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 15 Thumb down 0

  24. Tillman says:

    @C. Clavin:

    Do you think you have a natural right to shop without being shot because some fool can’t control his firearm?

    No, in the same way as I don’t think I have a natural right to shop without being shot because someone decided to massacre a supermarket. I don’t think rights play out in the sphere of life and death like this since no matter which way my rights extend, I’m still dead because someone shot me. That’s why I’m confused about what a right to life entails.

    Most of our rights are about how we live (freedom of speech, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, etc.), not about whether we can live or deserve to. What you’re talking about sounds more like a “Freedom From Unnecessary Death” right, and I’m not sure how you’d go about enshrining that in law.

    Don’t get me wrong, “right to life” is a great slogan in response to dumb doubling-down like the Plumber’s, and I’m essentially picking a nit here.

    @KM:

    Not a lawyer by a stretch but my best guess would be that the “right to life” is an unspoken legal pretense necessary for law to function. After all, how can one exercise one’s rights if one is not alive? One must be in order to be a human being.

    That’s a good place to start, but I feel that it’s too self-evident in this case to be considered a right. I don’t know, I’ll have to think about it more.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 2

  25. al-Ameda says:

    “But the words and images of Mr. Martinez blaming ‘the proliferation of guns’, lobbyists, politicians, etc.; will be exploited by gun-grab extremists as are all tragedies involving gun violence and the mentally ill by the anti-Second Amendment Left.”

    Basically, with the exception of the reference to Mr. Martinez, he lifted this nearly whole from the Republican Party Platform.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  26. C. Clavin says:

    @Tillman:
    From the Declaration…which you reference…

    …all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness…

    Emphasis mine.

    I don’t think I have a natural right to shop without being shot because someone decided to massacre a supermarket.

    That only means someone violated your right to life when they decided to massacre a supermarket.
    If I don’t have a right to life…why is it illegal to kill me?
    Just because some legislator thought it might be a good idea?
    Or because life is an unalienable right?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  27. grumpy realist says:

    The reason we don’t care is because aside from cases like this one, where a nut goes off his rocket in college and decides to commit suicide while taking as many people as he can with him, death due to guns doesn’t affect the upper and upper-middle classes. People shooting each other in the ‘hood” Eh, they’re all black; let them kill each other. Ditto for the shoot-ups among Bubba and his friends: let the white trash kill themselves. Who cares about people who shop at Walmart?

    And the NRA, a.k.a. shill for the gun manufacturers, is egging this on all the way. It panders to the lower middle class: “THOSE PEOPLE might not respect you, but you can fight back by purchasing a hot, manly piece of iron to hold in your hand and defend yourself!”

    (I honestly think that the NRA would gladly see the entire U.S. turned into a Mad Max scenario, provided the gun manufacturers could sell more guns.)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  28. grumpy realist says:

    P.S. Oh, and that woman who got killed by her ex-husband? Well, she should have known better than to get involved with him in the first place….plus, she was probably a bitch anyway….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  29. anjin-san says:

    You speak of “sanity in ownership”. Well how is that not a goal for law abiding gun owners?

    Watch the video of idiots in Texas parading around to restaurants and coffee shops carrying rifles and get back to us.

    How come we have no nationwide policy on mental health treatment? How come we have no nationwide policy that could allow for involuntary commitment into mental health facilities for things other than what is interpreted as “imminent danger”?

    Well, we can start with the “states rights” crowd, then take a look at our do nothing congress, then take a look at conservatives who want to pay for nothing. In truth, the issue is more complex than that, but these are a few answers to your question that jump out at me. Enough of this, I am pretty sure it’s time for the 128th vote to repeal Obamacare.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 1

  30. Tillman says:

    @C. Clavin:

    If I don’t have a right to life…why is it illegal to kill me?
    Just because some legislator thought it might be a good idea?
    Or because life is an unalienable right?

    You can make the economic argument that killing you deprives the nation of your labor. I think the same basic argument was made by slaveholders against people who killed their slaves. Other reasons exist to outlaw murder besides there being an unalienable right.

    We make plenty of laws that tie into an unalienable right to property, so I can see one’s life being one’s property as solid a foundation as any. But I don’t think that’s what “right to life” means to most people.

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  31. al-Ameda says:

    @grumpy realist:

    P.S. Oh, and that woman who got killed by her ex-husband? Well, she should have known better than to get involved with him in the first place….plus, she was probably a bitch anyway….

    l o l

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  32. stonetools says:

    Doug, in your earlier post on guns, you wondered if there could be a compromise on the gun debate. You now have your answer. You really can’t compromise with the kind of fanatics who set their own “rights” over all human standards of decency and empathy.
    I’m with Ozarks. I predict that these fanatics will not talk compromise until the country, repulsed by their attitude, rises up in disgust and passes something much more stringent than they would settle for. Eventually, a$$holes lose.

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  33. LaMont says:

    Dude, you should have just gone with “The are no critical words for a grieving father.” Then you would have saved yourself from being revealed as a cold, insensitive jerk.

    All gun right nuts are cold, insensitive jerks! Were you surprised he revealed this Doug?

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  34. Rob in CT says:

    I’m not sure if it’s true – the cites I’ve seen online were in comment postings and my google-fu isn’t as good as some, but it appears Not Joe the Not Plumber may have had a little Domestic Violence incident in his past.

    IF true, the “I wanna protect mah family” thing rings a wee bit hollow, no?

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  35. stonetools says:

    @LaMont:

    Doug is making progress on the issue. As recently as a couple of months ago, he was saying that the reason liberals favored gun safety legislation was because liberals didn’t “like” guns. He seems to be coming slowly to the realization that the problem is the inflexible and uncaring gun nuts, not the liberals.

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  36. Paul L. says:

    @Rob in CT:

    Joe the Not Plumber may have had a little Domestic Violence incident in his past.

    Where did you get that info?
    Was it from Gov. Strickland’s own appointee as head of the employment commission was found to have been accessing confidential government databases in order to find out confidential information, private information about Joe the Plumber and leaking it to the press?

    Of course progressives did not care for a grieving father when they go after William Petit on the Death Penalty.

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  37. mantis says:

    @Paul L.:

    Of course progressives did not care for a grieving father when they go after William Petit on the Death Penalty.

    Your link shows no evidence of anyone, progressive or otherwise, “going after” Mr. Petit.

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  38. Jon says:

    @Tillman:

    From John Locke, who was one of the inspirations of the founding fathers:

    Locke established that private property is absolutely essential for liberty: “every Man has a Property in his own Person. This no Body has any Right to but himself. The Labour of his Body, and the Work of his Hands, we may say, are properly his.” He continues: “The great and chief end therefore, of Mens uniting into Commonwealths, and putting themselves under Government, is the Preservation of their Property.”

    So the right to life is a predicate for the right to property, which is protected in the U.S. Constitution, in the 4th Amendment amongst other places.

    EDIT: Meant 4th, put 5th. sigh.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  39. Paul L. says:

    @mantis:
    Blaming Petit

    Petit has become the focus of intense media attention, and he’s used that to huge advantage. Complaints are heard that he’s doing everything in his power, plus some, to skew the outcome, manipulate the media and control the discussion.

    See this Guy
    http://www.pattisblog.com/index.php?article=A_Victim_As_Person_Of_The_Year__2862
    http://www.normanpattis.com/news.php?article=Super_Attorney_Norm_Pattis_77

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  40. mantis says:

    @Paul L.:

    Okay, so a local trial lawyer disagreed with Petit on whether or not the state of Connecticut should repeal their death penalty three years after Petit’s family were murdered. No where in those links does he come close to saying anything remotely as disgusting as Not Joe Not a Plumber did, and as far as I can tell he didn’t say anything unprovoked two days after the man’s wife and daughters were killed, as Not Joe the Scumbag just did.

    That said, I do believe Mr. Pattis should have just left Dr. Petit out of it. One can disagree on policy without getting personal with victims of crime.

    So I think Pattis and Not Joe the Scumbag were wrong to do what they did. What do you think?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  41. Paul L. says:

    @mantis:

    he come close to saying anything remotely as disgusting as Not Joe Not a Plumber did

    From the audio at 4:30 at the 2nd link.
    2 standards of Justice with because victims were upper middle class white people.
    Plenty of people have been beaten and robbed in their own homes. The state did not seek Death Penalty..
    The host then got him to “add context” pretty fast .
    “Raped and Burnt, 11 years old ”
    “This case is beyond the pale”

    Compared to someone telling a family member of someone killed by a drunk driver, we are not going to ban cars and alcohol.

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  42. mantis says:

    @Paul L.:

    So you’re saying what, exactly?

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  43. al-Ameda says:

    @Paul L.:

    Compared to someone telling a family member of someone killed by a drunk driver, we are not going to ban cars and alcohol.

    Do people generally purchase cars with the intent to defend their family or defend themselves? Do people purchase cars for the primary purpose of intimidating others and/or causing harm to others?

    If that is the case then I think we ought to heavily regulate vehicle purchases and require vehicle owners to purchase insurance to operate their vehicles, and to renew their vehicle licenses every few years. I would also suggest that these registration records be available in an extensive electronic data base for which access is provided to law enforcement officials — much the same as we do with guns, right?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  44. Grewgills says:

    @stonetools:

    Eventually, a$$holes lose.

    I wish I had your confidence in that.

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  45. Tillman says:

    @stonetools:

    Eventually, a$$holes lose.

    I’m fairly certain that was Martin Luther King, Jr.’s original formulation, but then he wrote it down, realized it wouldn’t reflect well on his image, and went with, “The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  46. Rob in CT says:

    @Paul L.:

    Wait, so what you’re saying is that the information is accurate, but shouldn’t have been released into the public domain? Even if we grant you that it should have remained private, you’ve confirmed that Not-Joe the Not-a-Plumber does indeed have a DV incident in his past, which bolsters my suspicion that the “defend his family” thing is so much nonsense (much like everything else Sam says). Seems to me that in most cases it’s about servicing a macho fantasy, not actually protecting anyone.

    As for Dr. Petit, I understand and sympathize with his position on the matter. The crime that destroyed his family was utterly horrific, beyond the pale, etc. I continue to disagree with him re: the Death Penalty. Not to protect the people who tortured and killed his wife & daughters, but rather to prevent avoidable, irreversible mistakes by our justice system. I don’t really have any doubt about the guilt of the men in the Petit case, and wouldn’t be sad if they were executed. I just think the DP is bad public policy.

    I don’t expect someone who suffered such an event to dispassionately weigh all the factors (almost nobody does, whether they’ve suffered trauma or not). It’s silly to do so. Ergo, expecting this guy out in CA who just lost his son to be all calm cool and collected regarding matters of public policy is foolish, and the best reaction if you disagree with him is to respectfully disagree w/o engaging him directly. Which, btw, is largely what happened with Petit here in Connecticut, especially in the immediate aftermath of the home invasion.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  47. Paul L. says:

    @al-Ameda:
    In my state PA,You can drive a car on your property without insurance or a license.
    Same for Guns?

    @Rob in CT:

    Dr. Petit, did not convene a press conference and blame the gas station for the fire.
    Of course he had nearly been beaten to death and was no condition to do so.
    After all using the Eleanor Clift standard, it was the fire that killed the 2 daughters not the 2 homeless social justice warriors getting payback against the 1%.

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  48. grumpy realist says:

    @Paul L.: Yes, but unfortunately the bullets don’t stay on your property….

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  49. al-Ameda says:

    @Paul L.:

    @al-Ameda:
    In my state PA,You can drive a car on your property without insurance or a license.
    Same for Guns?

    Well, as they say, “the West wasn’t won with a registered vehicle” and “When vehicles are outlawed, only outlaws will have vehicles.”

    Again vehicles are not analogous to guns, so analogies that equate “vehicle and alcohol” with “guns and mayhem” are spurious.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  50. Rafer Janders says:

    @Rob in CT:

    I don’t really have any doubt about the guilt of the men in the Petit case, and wouldn’t be sad if they were executed. I just think the DP is bad public policy.

    Same here. I myself would gladly strangle those two men to death with my bare hands, and I’d sleep like a baby that same night. If anyone deserves death, they do.

    But I don’t think that my act of revenge shouldn’t itself be a crime, and I don’t think the state, any state, should have the power of life and death over its citizens. We’ve executed too many innocent men already.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  51. Rafer Janders says:

    @Paul L.:

    After all using the Eleanor Clift standard, it was the fire that killed the 2 daughters not the 2 homeless social justice warriors getting payback against the 1%.

    You are a vile and loathsome little man. I’d ask you to please stop dancing on the graves of Dr. Petit’s family for your own little political show, but it’s pretty obvious that this is a story that somehow excites you on a somewhat deeper level.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  52. Paul L. says:

    @Rafer Janders:

    I’d ask you to please stop dancing on the graves of Dr. Petit’s family for your own little political show

    I prefer to think of it as dancing on the future graves of Steven Hayes and Joshua Komisarjevky.

    As opposed to dancing on the graves of the victims of mass shootings under Obama.

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  53. anjin-san says:

    @ Paul L.

    As opposed to dancing on the graves of the victims of mass shootings under Obama.

    How are mass shootings Obama’s fault? How are mass shootings during his era any different than those under earlier Presidents? Please be specific, and keep in mind that is sounds like you are trying to make political hay off of the blood of murder victims.

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  54. Paul L. says:

    @anjin-san:
    I was using as a shorthand to refer to the Tucson/Aurora/Newtown/UCSB shootings which occurred when Obama was President.

    I was not blaming Obama for the shootings.

    @Rafer Janders:
    BTW one of things that most interest me about the Petit murders was how bad the police response was and how they were never held accountable.

    Cheshire murders: Documentary raises questions but cops aren’t answering

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  55. al-Ameda says:

    @Paul L.:

    As opposed to dancing on the graves of the victims of mass shootings under Obama.

    Every mass shooting is an opportunity for the president to suggest that easy access gun purchases and mass shootings are wrong – I can see how and why that upsets the gun ownership cult.

    Seriously, do you really believe that Obama is not appalled or upset by the now occasional annual mass shooting?

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  56. anjin-san says:

    @ Paul L.

    I was not blaming Obama for the shootings.

    Really? Why mention him at all then?

    When you talk about the stock market, do you say “the huge gains and fabulous investment returns that took place under Obama?”

    I somehow doubt it.

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  57. Paul L. says:

    @anjin-san:

    When you talk about the stock market, do you say “the huge gains and fabulous investment returns that took place under Obama?”

    Off Topic “The huge gains and fabulous investment returns that took place under Obama” with the Fed printing 80 billion dollars a month and dumping it in the bond market with QE3.

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  58. anjin-san says:

    @ Paul L.

    Damn, you are right! We should have just continued with the Bush program and the depression that we were headed for.

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  59. al-Ameda says:

    @Paul L.:

    Off Topic “The huge gains and fabulous investment returns that took place under Obama” with the Fed printing 80 billion dollars a month and dumping it in the bond market with QE3.

    On Topic — You do realize that the QE round that followed the financial catastrophe is what prevented this country from descending into another Great Depression. There was much excess capacity and underutilized resources in the economy following the crash so there was an extremely low probability that that QE round would result in the hyper-inflation that so many conservatives predicted. America was nearly alone in adopting expansionary measures following the 2008 crash and associated 2009 recession, and we were one of the very few countries that has experienced slow steady economic growth since 2009. Those countries that adopted austerity measures have not recovered as we have.

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