“Staying here is like committing suicide.”
Via the NYT: Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to Flee
In interviews with more than 30 students from seven universities, all but four said they hoped to flee immediately after receiving their degrees. Many said they did not expect Iraq to stabilize for at least a decade.
[...]
The class of 2007 came of age during a transformation that according to students has harvested tragedy from seeds of hope. They are the last remnants of a middle class that has already fled by the tens of thousands. As such they embody the country’s progression from innocence to bitter wisdom amid dashed expectations and growing animosity toward the Americans.
Now, one can argue that the interviews were only with thirty students, and to some degree that is fair–as one can only infer so much from that small of a sample. Still, it is not a stretch to say that the situation that the educated middle class, especially the young is a dire and that fleeing the country is a rather logical option.
About Steven L. Taylor
And interviewing 30 U.S. university students would say what about our country?
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Iraq faces the same situation as has Lebanon in the past – a large diaspora of intellectual talent into the West to both find gainful employment and secure safety for their generations.
Tammy
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This one’s easy. If *you* were graduating with a marketable Ph.D., would *you* get the hell out of Iraq?
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Why do we continue with this charade, that everything was so much better under Saddam Hussein?
Was this small number of students, a collection of his followers?
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Leave it to the NYTimes to paint as negative a picture as possible. Let’s see, of the seven schools, four are in or around Baghdad. Where again is most of the violence centered?
Flee? Why not “leave?”
Yep, getting ready to flee.
I thought this meme had been debunked.
Huh? Frankly given the turmoil, it is astounding that the universities are graduating any students. But the times admits this later:
Come on NYTimes, which way is it?
Given that they are college grads, one would presume that their views of Islam are a bit more moderate that those espoused by the waring factions. Naturally they would feel unwelcome by the more fundamentalist groups, and until Iraq stabilizes, it is only prudent to sell ones services in a more hospitable environment.
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Baines,
I know what you are trying to say, but the fact that they 1) Risked their lives to get an education and 2) Are ready to flee the country as soon as they get one; is really not mutually exclusive. Where else are they going to get a degree in higher education that allows them to have middle-class jobs to feed their families and guarantee that their is an actual family to feed by fleeing Iraq?
I know that sample size is important, but I’m from Michigan with 2 of the top 30 Universities in the country, yet those graduates flee the state as soon as they get a degree because the industries and careers aren’t as attractive as in other locations. I suspect that they are no different than than the junior “Bushies” who go over to the Green Zone to make a name for themselves in some high Administration role above their experience, but know that upon 9 months they will have a great job waiting for them in the states.
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The result of our “liberation” of Iraq is that the people of Iraq have traded one nightmare for another.
This seems like a poor return for the thousands of American lives lost and the hundreds of billions spent.
When you factor in the usefulness of Iraq to Al Qaeda as a recruiting/training ground for new terrorists and the fact that Saddam was not, after all, a threat to America, you come up with the hard fact that Bush’s war is a disaster for all parties involved, except perhaps for Bin Laden.
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Yes, after all, freedom is such a nightmare, right Anji?
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Derrick, my point wasn’t that risking ones life in order to obtain a college or post-grad degree is mutually exclusive to wanting to ply ones wares elsewhere. It was to point out the endemic schizophrenic reporting of the NYTimes, so eager to accentuate US caused failure that they lose focus on the truly significant aspects of the story.
It is certainly understandable that graduates are leaving Baghdad and Iraq for greener pastures, as your anecdote accentuates, but to frame it as “fleeing” does disservice to the story. Framed thusly, it grossly understates the students resolve to actually stay under such adverse conditions just to attain that college degree.
But the NYTimes is not really interested in that story, it does not follow the narrative they wish to foist.
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Bit…
Nice talking point, if not very original.
Not being able to leave you home without fear of violent death is a nightmare. Many Iraqi men have taken to having their names and contact info tattooed on them so that if they are killed their families will be notified and they will not end up in an anonymous grave. Of course the ones who are blown to smithereens are out of luck.
Your lack of compassion for the suffering of the people of Iraq comes as no big suprise…
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It’s not a matter of lack of compassion, a response and recognition of simple fact would be more like it.
How much investigation had you done into the plight of America, under the power of the British? Tell me, for example, how easy life was for the signatories to the declaration of independence.
The point I’m making here, is that freedom comes at a cost. It surprises me not one bit that you haven’t made that connection. Just so you know throwing off oppression, is never easy. It is usually quite bloody. It is, however, in the end, the only choice to be made.
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Bit,
Your analogy between Bush’s attack on Iraq and the American Revelation is so lame it is almost beyond belief.
Americans chose the war for independence. The situation in Iraq was imposed from outside by military force.
In reality, the “quest for democracy” in Iraq is a rather hurried, lame re-branding of the war after it turned out there were no WMD. Only the gullible among us bought into it.
Well, the Iraqi government is getting ready to tell us to get the hell out of their country. After that happens, I suspect we shall see how “free” they actually are.
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If the people of Iraq had made such a choice, you would have a point. Since they did not, your argument is quite invalid. Welcome to Reason 101.
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So because by your lights they don’t have a choice, you make the choice for them, allowing them to one wish him the situation that they were in, considering that option, that lack of freedom far more palatable by your lights. It is, after all, easier to do that than to actually stand up for individual freedom. And you consider, apparently, a lack of freedom a lesser problem.
This says more about you than you imagine.
You’re trying to have it both ways, Anji, and the real world simply doesn’t work that way.
And no, Anji, the comparison is quite valid when limited to the consequences paid for that act of standing up for freedom.
Read the link, and particularly pay attention to the cost paid for having signed on to that document, and tell me how that substantially different from the costs Iraqis are paying just now. You’ll find the differences are not substantial at all.
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Bit,
How simple are you? The people of Iraq could have risen up and deposed Saddam any time they wished. Recent history is full of examples of people tossing dictators out of power.
If you do buy into the rather comic notion that the war in Iraq is about “freeing” the people there, then it is you that claim the right to make the choice for them. We are going to invade your country and bomb the crap out of it because WE have decided you need to be free. (The we had to destroy the village in order to save it thing)
Tell me Bit, since you are captain freedom, do you have any goods in your home that were make in the sweatshops run by the brutal dictators in China? Bush does not have any problem doing business with these cats. Funny how we only seem to need to free folks who sit atop an ocean of oil.
If people yearn to be free, to depose a dictator, they should rise up and free themselves. We have seen it happen many times. Poland, Roumania, The Philippines, and so on. The fact that so many dictators are in power in the middle east suggests that these societies have not yet reached the tipping point where they are ready to evolve towards governments that are more open and responsive to the needs of their citizens.
Then of course there is the fact that we actively support dictators in a number of other middle eastern nations because it is convenient for us.
If the people of Iraq want to be free, it is a problem for the people of Iraq to solve. I don’t have any business telling them how to conduct their affairs. I am far more concerned with rather alarming erosion of freedom right here at home over the last 6 years.
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You completely ignore the thanks from the people there, and the pleas that we shouldn’t leave, yet. Or is that all fabricated, in your mind?
Also, I’m interested; how do you suppose it is they would be able to have done that, any more than the Chinese you mention?
Indeed; what would have prevented the French for example from rising up against their German occupiers? What business had we to insert ourselves into that situation?
How does your condemnation apply to our actions in Iraq, and not to our actions in France?
Your logic as usual seems lacking. I have long suspected you’re simply throwing out arguments to have something to say, in hopes of getting the last word.
Thanks for confirming this for me, without my having to ask.
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Bithead,
Crack a history book. Germany declared war on us. We fought them in a number of places. The liberation of France was a desirable byproduct of this.
And of course these same history books you will learn that there was an ongoing resistance in France to the German occupation during which a great number of French citizens willingly laid down their lives for the freedom of their country.
As usual, you analogy sucks. There is a big difference from holding the citizens of a country accountable for the action of their own government and assisting a nation that is the victim of foreign aggression.
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[...] Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to FleeFour years after staring college, Iraq’s college graduates are ending their studies shattered and eager to leave. ARTICLE » DAMIEN CAVE The New York Times Monday, June 4TAGS: • BlogRunner > Education • BlogRunner > Iraq • The New York Times > Colleges and Universities • The New York Times > Education and Schools • The New York Times > Terrorism • The New York Times > Bombs and Explosives more Who’s Blogging View as List View as Thread Most Relevant First Most Recent First Cenk Uygur: How Does George Bush Sleep at Night? Cenk Uygur The Huffington Post elap(’1181036063′);Iraq has become a case study in anarchy. I don’t know how George Bush sleeps at night. You’d have to be a monster to rest easy, knowing what he’s done. I’m not sure one man’s sloth has ever caused so much harm … Little girls with shrapnel in their faces, charred bodies at every crossroad, mass graves at universities, bullet riddled, tortured bodies in the street.alberto’s cesspool Sex and Politics and Screeds and Attitude Sex and Politics and Screeds and Attitude elap(’1181077440′);that’s Adam Kokesh and i am outraged by how little attention his ‘hearing’ has received. every 1′s relying on ap to cover it and heather hollingsworth (hogsworth?) …Damien Cave (New York Times) reports on 30 Iraqi colleges from seven different colleges — 26 of whom “said they hoped to flee immediately after receiving their degrees” and “did not expect Iraq to stabilize for at least a decade.“Staying here is like committing suicide.” Dr. Steven Taylor PoliBlog elap(’1181053853′);Via the NYT: Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to Flee In interviews with more than 30 students from seven universities, all but four said they hoped to flee immediately after receiving their degrees. 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Can’t Stop Thinking About It Still more about the … PG HALF THE SINS OF MANKIND elap(’1181070420′);Can’t Stop Thinking About It Still more about the brain drain from Iraq, now from the perspective of a very different Class of ’07 than mine: Four years later, Iraq’s college graduates are ending their studies shattered and eager to leave the country. The real lesson of the Marshall Plan Sam duPont FP Passport elap(’1181144867′);Once again, it’s the time of year for World War II nostalgia … Given the bit of trouble the United States is having with reconstruction efforts today, it is worth looking back at what Winston Churchill once hailed as “The most unsordid act in history.Claims that the 2 missing US soldiers were killed Common Ills The Common Ills elap(’1181017680′);But 23 days after a deadly ambush south of Baghdad, there are two things the searchers still don’t have: Spec. Alex R. Jimenez and Pvt. Byron W. Fouty … Discontent can also be found in Iraq, of course, and Damien Cave’s “Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to Flee” (New York Times) addresses one faction of that…Middle East Post Angela Winters POLITOPICS elap(’1181038980′);Despite the ongoing civil war and devastation in Algeria, or maybe because of it, women are making strides in economics and politics at a rate that you just don’t see in most Arab countries … Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to Flee – New York Times.Tuesday’s Mini-Report Steve Benen The Carpetbagger Report elap(’1181079006′);Today’s edition of quick hits … One 25-year old Iraqi medical student told the NYT, “Staying here is like committing suicide.“Staying here is like committing suicide.” James Joyner Outside the Beltway elap(’1181055964′);Via the NYT: Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to Flee In interviews with more than 30 students from seven universities, all but four said they hoped to flee immediately after receiving their degrees. NYT reportage tjic baseless statements elap(’1181040598′);[link] BAGHDAD, June 4 – They started college just before or after the American invasion with dreams of new friends and parties, brilliant teachers and advanced degrees that would lead to stellar jobs… News Brief, Pictures of You Edition Joshua Foust The Conjecturer elap(’1181082949′);Defense David Axe has a great idea, based on the success of targeting pods: “Forget sinking $100 billion into developing a new airframe. After all, an airframe is only as good as its weapons and sensors, and those you can cram into a pod … Those Iraqi graduates sure do hate Iraq.everyday will break by itself Tina Newberry, Sit… hackmuth the dust congress elap(’1181034180′);everyday will break by itself Tina Newberry, Sitting Duck * How does George Bush sleep at night. excerpt: “Iraq has become a case study in anarchy. I don’t know how George Bush sleeps at night. Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to Flee DAMIEN CAVE The New York Times elap(’1181016002′);Four years after staring college, Iraq’s college graduates are ending their studies shattered and eager to leave. The real lesson of the Marshall PlanFP Passport elap(’1181144867′);Sam duPont: Once again, it’s the time of year for World War II nostalgia… Given the bit of trouble the United States is having with reconstruction efforts today, it is worth looking back at what Winston Churchill once hailed as “The most unsordid act in history. Can’t Stop Thinking About It Still more about the …HALF THE SINS OF MANKIND elap(’1181070420′);PG: Can’t Stop Thinking About It Still more about the brain drain from Iraq, now from the perspective of a very different Class of ’07 than mine: Four years later, Iraq’s college graduates are ending their studies shattered and eager to leave the country. 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The Huffington Post elap(’1181036063′);Cenk Uygur: Iraq has become a case study in anarchy. I don’t know how George Bush sleeps at night. You’d have to be a monster to rest easy, knowing what he’s done. I’m not sure one man’s sloth has ever caused so much harm… Little girls with shrapnel in their faces, charred bodies at every crossroad, mass graves at universities, bullet riddled, tortured bodies in the street. everyday will break by itself Tina Newberry, Sit…the dust congress elap(’1181034180′);hackmuth: everyday will break by itself Tina Newberry, Sitting Duck * How does George Bush sleep at night. excerpt: “Iraq has become a case study in anarchy. I don’t know how George Bush sleeps at night. More Signs Iraq Is Lost Bring it On! elap(’1181065498′);windspike: This quote is telling: “I used to dream about getting a Ph.D., participating in international conferences, belonging to a team that discovered cures for diseases like AIDS, leaving my fingerprint on medicine,” said Hasan Tariq Khaldoon, 24… Karar Alaa, 25, a medical student at Babil University, south of Baghdad, said, “Staying here is like committing suicide. “Staying here is like committing suicide.” PoliBlog elap(’1181053853′);Dr. Steven Taylor: Via the NYT: Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to Flee In interviews with more than 30 students from seven universities, all but four said they hoped to flee immediately after receiving their degrees. “Staying here is like committing suicide.” Outside the Beltway elap(’1181055964′);James Joyner: Via the NYT: Cheated of Future, Iraqi Graduates Want to Flee In interviews with more than 30 students from seven universities, all but four said they hoped to flee immediately after receiving their degrees. 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