George Zimmerman Granted Bail At $150,000

An unusual proceeding, but an unsurprising result.

The fact that the newly appointed presiding judge in the Trayvon Martin shooting case ended up granting the Defendant’s motion to be released on bail isn’t all that unusual, but the manner in which the hearing unfolded was probably surprising to people outside the State of Florida:

SANFORD, Fla. — A Florida judge on Friday set George Zimmerman’s bail at $150,000 in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin and imposed restrictions on Mr. Zimmerman’s release from jail.

The judge, Kenneth R. Lester Jr., said that Mr. Zimmerman could have no contact with Mr. Martin’s family and no access to alcohol or firearms and that his movements would be monitored electronically. Judge Lester also set a curfew that would require Mr. Zimmerman to remain at home from 7 p.m. until 6 a.m. and require him check in with the authorities every three days.

Mr. Zimmerman will not be released from jail on Friday. The judge said that he wanted to make sure that security measures were in place for Mr. Zimmerman, who has received death threats.

In a surprise move, Mr. Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who has been charged with second-degree murder for shooting Mr. Martin to death in February,  offered an apology to the victim’s parents, who were in the courtroom at Seminole County Circuit Court.

“I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was,” Mr. Zimmerman, 28, said, speaking publicly for the first time about the Feb. 26 shooting. “I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. I did not know if he was armed or not.”

Mr. Zimmerman’s family members also testified that they would assume responsibility for his whereabouts when he is released from jail.

Testifying by telephone, Mr. Zimmerman’s wife, Shellie Nichole Zimmerman, said that she would also notify the court and law enforcement officials if she lost contact with Mr. Zimmerman for any reason before his trial.

Judge Lester had agreed to allow Ms. Zimmerman and other members of the Zimmerman family, including his father, Robert, and his mother, Gladys, to testify at the hearing by telephone out of concern for their safety.

Mr. Zimmerman, 28, dressed in a white shirt, dark suit and gray tie, was shackled and wore a somber expression during the proceedings as he sat next to his lawyer, Mark O’Mara.

He showed no expression as his wife calmly answered questions from both Mr. O’Mara and Bernado De La Rionada, an assistant state attorney.

Ms. Zimmerman said she and her husband had been married for almost five years and that she did not believe that he posed a flight risk. She said she spoke with him every day by phone when he was in hiding in the weeks before his arrest.

Mr. De La Rionada asked her whether she believed her husband was a violent person. She replied, “No.”

Mr. Martin’s parents, Tracy Martin and Sybrina Ö Fulton, sat in the small courtroom during the hearing.

O’Mara’s decision to put Zimmerman on the stand was, to say the very least, highly unusual and potentially very risky. Zimmerman has already given several statements to the police as part of the investigation that took place after the shooting, and those statements can be used against him at trial if he chooses to testify most importantly to attempt to impeach his testimony by pointing out alleged contradictions between his testimony and his initial statements. For that reason, it’s usually the case that a Defendant will remain silent unless and until the decision is made to put him on the stand at trial. In this case, of course, there seems to be little question that Zimmerman will eventually be required to take the stand and testify regarding the events of that night. In fact, the fact that he’s pursuing a self-defense claim pretty much requires that he do so. However, I’m not sure why it was necessary to put him in the stand today for what turned out to be nothing more than attempt to make a statement he has apparently wanted to make to Martin’s parents for some time. Based on the reports, it would appear that the cross-examination didn’t really harm Zimmermann and neither did the direct questioning. O’Mara’s been practicing for several decades now, so I suppose he knows what he’s going but this was a highly risky move that could have blown up in the defense’s case.

The other unusual part of the hearing came from a quirk in Florida law that allows the defense to use a bond hearing to test the basis for the prosecution’s assertion that probable cause exists to have arrested Zimmerman on charges of Second Degree Murder. In that part of the case, O’Mara managed to at least raise some questions about just how strong the prosecutions case is:

State Attorney’s investigator Dale Gilbreath testified earlier. O’Mara questioned him about the probable cause affidavit he signed for the second-degree murder charge. Gilbreath said he did not expect to testify at the hearing.

O’Mara grilled Gilbreath on his use of the word “profiling” in describing Zimmerman’s behavior that night, asking why he used the term. Gilbreath said the term indicates that Zimmerman saw the teen, then formed an opinion of him not based on any facts.

O’Mara asked Gilbreath about unattributed statements in several sections of the affidavit.

“‘Zimmerman confronted Martin.’ Those words, where’d you get them from,” O’Mara asked.

“According to one of the witnesses that we talked with, there were arguing words going on before this incident occured,” Gilbreath said. He said “confronted,” the word O’Mara took issue with, was one of probably 30 he could have used.

Prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda then questioned Gilbreath. He asked is there was any evidence that Trayvon Martin shouldn’t have been in the neighborhood where the shooting occurred, or was breaking any law. Gilbreath said no.

Gilbreath testified that there is video of Trayvon Martin buying Skittles and iced tea before the shooting. He also said that Trayvon was unarmed.

During further questioning by O’Mara, Gilbreath admitted that the state has no evidence who started the fight. There is also no evidence that Zimmerman didn’t walk back to his car after chasing Martin on foot, as the defendant has claimed.

However, he said that Zimmerman’s statements, as well as his description of the injuries he suffered, are contradicted by other evidence in the case.

This is obviously just a very early stage of the case and what happened here isn’t necessarily relevant at trial, but we’re beginning to see the beginnings of what the strategies of the defense in this case is likely to be. Outside the courtroom, ABC News was out this morning with a story of what is apparently a photo of George Zimmerman taken at the scene mere minutes after the shooting showing bloody gashes to the back of his head, which seems to corroborate his version of events to some extent.

As for the decision to grant bail, that is, as I said, unsurprising. Unless there is clear evidence that a defendant is a danger to the community or poses a serious flight risk, there is a predisposition in the law of pretty much every state in the country in favor of granting bail pre-trial. More often than not, the reason people end up sitting in jail before trial can be pinned on the fact that they meet one of those exceptions, that they don’t have the assets to meet the bond requirements, or that they don’t have sufficient ties to the community to assure the Court that, if released, they won’t simply leave the jurisdiction never to return. None of that appears to be the case here. There was apparently some evidence presented of a five year old criminal charge against Zimmerman, subsequently dismissed via pre-trail diversion, involving a fight with what turned out to be an undercover Florida ABC officer and dual restraining orders filed by Zimmerman and a former girlfriend, but the judge clearly didn’t think that this amounted to evidence of a threat to the community. Additionally, Zimmerman’s wife and family all live in Central Florida and he’s turned in his passport. Finally, it is important to remember that George Zimmerman is innocent until he is proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Bail and pre-trial detention are not meant to be punishment, they are meant to ensure the Defendant’s presence at trial.  Given all of this, not granting bond would have been highly unusual.

FILED UNDER: Crime, Law and the Courts
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. legion says:

    My strictly amateur guess is that O’Mara feels his client’s best chance is to try this in the court of public opinion – thus, his attempt at humanizing Zimmerman with his public statement. As terrible as this whole affair is, even I shudder to think on how Zimmerman will be treated if/when he ever goes into General Pop…

  2. Steven W. says:

    The investigator admitted there was no evidence to challenge self defense and also admitted the investigators never reviewed any of the medical reports for Zimmerman – this case may be dismissed very quickly. The investigator admitted that quotes attributed to Zimmerman were not his words. It was a truly pathetic performance by the State of Florida who fail basic tests of legitimacy by their use of the charged term “profiling” when they’re not willing to back it up or even say that the term “racial” should accompany it.

  3. @Steven W.:

    As I’ve said several times, this is gonna be the OJ case: I think he’s guilty of involuntary manslaughter, but he’s probably going to get away with it because it’s going to be impossible to prove as a result of the state bungling the investigation.

  4. mattb says:

    However, I’m not sure why it was necessary to put him in the stand today for what turned out to be nothing more than attempt to make a statement he has apparently wanted to make to Martin’s parents for some time.

    As @legion, this is as much about dealing with the Court of Public Opinion as it was dealing with the immediate legal proceedings. And it was the right move, especially given the fact that people on all sides of the political spectrum have stated that they are concerned that this looks like over-zealous prosecution.

    The other news, tangential to this, is that the State is convening a panel to look at the “Stand your ground” law itself. Based on a lot of the reporting around SYG, I think this is a very good thing, and hopefully will result in tweaking the legislation to make it more effective (i.e. protecting the people who need to be protected).

  5. Socrates says:

    ““I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was,” Mr. Zimmerman, 28, said, speaking publicly for the first time about the Feb. 26 shooting. “I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. I did not know if he was armed or not.”

    YOU HAVE AN ABSOLUTE MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO FIND OUT BEFORE YOU KILL HIM.

  6. al-Ameda says:

    All it takes is for Zimmerman to get an “OJ Jury” and he’s free.
    Should be no problem at all in Florida to come up with 12 people who can get the job done.

  7. JKB says:

    Certainly looks like the media is trying to back out of this. Perhaps they’ve seen they’ll be blamed and perhaps libel for the unrest from their sensationalizing. One or two more photos and Zimmerman himself will look like what Obama’s son might look like. Maybe the courtroom lights are set up to make the defendant look darker in complexion?

    But this solved a few issues for the eventual resolution. The family got their apology and explanation. The PC in the affidavit got punched around a bit, which could support an eventual reduction in charges.

    By the way, it is good to see the investigator has no concept of what profiling means. That word was apparently a keyword to satisfy those who automatically put “racial” in front of it while not actually accusing him of racial profiling.

    profiling
    n 1: recording a person’s behavior and analyzing psychological
    characteristics in order to predict or assess their ability
    in a certain sphere or to identify a particular group of
    people

  8. John Burgess says:

    @Socrates: Excuse me, Mr. Assailant. I’d like to see your ID card in order to determine whether I’m going to shoot you. If you are under 18, I’ll have to think of some other form of self-defense.

    Really?

    In another part of Florida (Sarasota) a 17-y/o has just been convicted of a double murder and sentenced to LWOP.

  9. anjin-san says:

    The family got their apology

    I’m sure that makes up for the death of their son at the hands of a self-appointed lawman.

  10. anjin-san says:

    @ JKB

    recording a person’s behavior and analyzing psychological characteristics

    Zimmermann is probably too stupid to profile even if he wanted to. He wrongly concluded that Martin was “up to something” “on drugs” and “has something in his wasteband”.

    I think Zimmermann’s thinking probably boiled down to “Black kid. He’s probably bad. Trouble.”

  11. Kain says:

    @Socrates:

    The guy hasn’t been able to speak out for awhile, and had to stay in hiding due to the death threats he and his family had been getting. Maybe in your warped little world, you have to get such info before you shoot someone; in the real world however it doesn’t work like that if you’re under attack- and fearing for your life. You know damn well if you felt threatened, and your attacker looked like an adult male, and not just that- portrayed the image of a thug, you’d defend yourself to the end. If you deny that, then you’re a liar.

  12. Rick Almeida says:

    @Kain:

    That’s why I don’t follow people after calling the police.

  13. anjin-san says:

    and not just that- portrayed the image of a thug

    Well yes, Martin was black. Certainly that equal “thug” in a lot of people’s eyes.

    I was wearing a hoodie the other day (2010 Giants, World Champs) – does that make me thug kinda guy?

  14. mattb says:

    @Socrates: I’ve been pretty critical of Zimmerman, based on the facts that have been released, but I think this is going too far in the opposite direction.

    Do I think Zimmerman helped create whatever situation unfolded? Yes.

    I also have problems with the idea that he was jumped from behind while walking to the car.

    But, if it really was a self defense situation — a case where things rapidly escalated and he did fear for his life — then the idea of an immediate responsibility to find more out about his attacker went out the window.

    Where I do agree is that, due to his decision to use deadly force, he ultimately takes moral responsibility for the entirety of his actions. But in them moment, there are other things at play. And moral responsibility is different than legal responsibility.

  15. Dazedandconfused says:

    The wounds on Zimmerman are probably meaningless. The prosecutions case is based on Martin fighting for his life as well, is it not?

  16. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: I see anjin still supports beating Hispanic’s heads against the pavement when the “dis” someone.

    Kind of a reminder that the Ku Klux Klan came out of the Democratic party…

  17. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Dazedandconfused: The wounds aren’t meaningless; they directly support Zimmerman’s claim that Martin was on top of him, bashing his head against the pavement.

    “Self defense” doesn’t involve sitting astride your assailant and bashing his head against the pavement. And it totally demolishes the relevance of the “stand your ground” statute — Zimmerman, by his story, had no chance whatsoever to retreat, with a 6’2″ high school football player on top of him, slamming his head into the pavement.

  18. Jenos Idanian says:

    Man, I so much want to go through the OTB archives on this story and quote all the people who said that Zimmerman was totally uninjured and hunted down Martin in cold blood…

    I might have to do just that, when I have the time.

  19. Dazedandconfused says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    If shooting someone can be self-defense, then so can a wrestling match.

  20. anjin-san says:

    @ Dazed

    Roger that. Matin was a citizen going about his lawful business. A stranger followed him, and confronted/accosted him. Sounds like Martin could very well have been “standing his ground.”

    And of course we know that Zimmermann was armed and had enough of a history of violence that he was once compelled to take an anger management course.

    Martin probably concluded that he was in danger from Zimmermann. If so, he was correct.

  21. al-Ameda says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    It would seem that the person most entitled to a legal claim of self-defense (had he survived) was Martin. He (Martin) was followed and harassed by an armed individual for no reason.

  22. al-Ameda says:

    @anjin-san:

    I was wearing a hoodie the other day (2010 Giants, World Champs) – does that make me thug kinda guy?

    Go to any college campus in America today – and by that standard (wearing a Hoodie) – the campuses are awash with thugs. Millions of them across the country.

  23. anjin-san says:

    “Self defense” doesn’t involve sitting astride your assailant and bashing his head against the pavement

    See, you can’t crack as assailant on the noggin, because that might, you know, hurt him. But you can certainly shoot one dead.

    Welcome to the bizarro world of the fringe right.

    Say Jenos, what’s with the “high school football player” obsession? Did the cool kids tease you back in the day?

  24. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: OK, I didn’t think you were that stupid, but let me spell it out for you.

    If you’re sitting atop your “assailant” and bashing his head into the pavement, then you are preventing your “assailant” from fleeing. You are keeping the conflict going. The fight is continuing purely at your choice.

    You know, you’d probably be an ideal exemplar for how many previous comments of yours on this case are now “no longer operative…”

  25. dennis says:

    @Kain:

    Don’t be obtuse. “Don’t start nuthin’, won’t be nuthin’.”

  26. mattb says:

    @anjin-san & @Dazedandconfused: Why are you two making me defend Jenos?!

    Violently knocking one’s head on the pavement can be a self defense situation worthy of deadly force. Period.

    The issue — and arguably the problem with stand your ground as it seems to sometimes be invoked — is trying to find the line between a fight that got out of hand and a self defense scenario.

    There is little doubt in my mind that Zimmerman effectively instigated the encounter. And I suspect that if he wasn’t armed, he wouldn’t have pursued Martin in the first place. To that point, I think manslaughter would have been a far better charge.

    If you’re sitting atop your “assailant” and bashing his head into the pavement, then you are preventing your “assailant” from fleeing. You are keeping the conflict going. The fight is continuing purely at your choice.

    I have to disagree with this.

    Knowing a bit about fighting, the fact is that people typically fall to the ground in the messiness of a fight. The phrase sitting atop your “assailant” tends to make things sound far neater than what was probably going on. Beyond that, once you have gone to the ground, you want to make sure that the person you are fighting cannot get up and re-engage. That doesn’t mean kill them. But it does mean knock the fight out of them.

    If Martin had sat atop Zimmerman for an extended period of time, then you might have a point. But as we don’t have a particularly good eyewitness account of the entire thing, we have no idea how long Martin was in that point of domination.

    And to what ever degree Martin feared for his life from Zimmerman, I should note that he was effectively standing his ground (again, getting to some of the problems with the law as written).

  27. Dazedandconfused says:

    @mattb:

    You are missing that the prosecutions case is based on Martin defending himself.

  28. PD Shaw says:

    The bond seemed a little low to me, but these two items:

    “Gilbreath admitted that the state has no evidence who started the fight. There is also no evidence that Zimmerman didn’t walk back to his car after chasing Martin on foot, as the defendant has claimed.”
    . . .

    “Based on the reports, it would appear that the cross-examination didn’t really harm Zimmermann and neither did the direct questioning.”

    The weak cross-examination and the admission of no positive evidence of what happened (as opposed to a claim of evidence that disproves the other side’s story) is consistent with the arrest being simply intended to de-toxify the environment in the community. I think things will creep slowly. Zimmerman will be acquitted when attention is elswhere.

  29. mattb says:

    @Dazedandconfused:

    You are missing that the prosecutions case is based on Martin defending himself.

    No, I’m not. In fact, I’ve posted here in the past that, the blackly ironic fact is that Martin would have been well within his grounds to have killed Zimmerman that night in self defense.

    The entire problem here is that no one knows how the situation started. The prosecution is attempting to prove that Zimmerman provoked the situation and thereby move it outside of the realm of self defense. The defense is going to argue that Martin was the aggressor.

    The unfortunate problem is that these situations, where there were no eyewitnesses from beginning to end, favor the person who used deadly force — dead men can’t tell their side of the story. And, even if the entire thing was witnessed, there was no guarantee that, even if Zimmerman instigated the confrontation, that SYG wouldn’t have still gotten him off the hook. And that gets, in part, to the overall problem with SYG as it seems to be implemented in Florida.

    Again, I’m not trying to defend Zimmerman, but I still have a hard time seeing my way to Murder 2 for all the reasons cited in previous threads.

  30. anjin-san says:

    You are keeping the conflict going. The fight is continuing purely at your choice.

    So we can add “fighting” to the list of things you know nothing about.

    When I was say, ten, I thought that the key to winning a fight was getting on top of the other guy and smacking him a few times. That or getting him in a headlock 🙂

    After I had spend 20 years working in bars and clubs, where you see fights, break up fights, and preferable have the cops deal the with fights on a fairly regular basis, I know that the reality of a fight is a lot more complicated, and that advantage can change rapidly, regardless of what position you are in. I have seen guys with broken noses, concussions, and guys covered in their own blood still win the fight.

    How many tales have you told here Jenos? Martin had a thug Facebook page. Zimmermann was overweight and out of shape. Both total crap.

    Now it’s “Martin elected to continue the fight”.

    It’s also possible that in the tussle Martin saw the gun and he knew he was in a life or death struggle. At that point, he can claim self defense from the armed stranger who followed and accosted him even if he does beat Zimmermann to death.

  31. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: How many tales have you told here Jenos? Martin had a thug Facebook page. Zimmermann was overweight and out of shape. Both total crap.

    Both of which I’ve acknowledged were mistakes, and apologized for. But shall we review your own (mis)statements on this case? Hell, even you said Zimmerman weighed 200 lbs.

    3/21, 10:11: Ah, you must mean thugs like Zimmerman. After all, he stalked, then shot a citizen who was going about his lawful business. Unless walking while black is a crime in your book.

    15:48: All this idiot had to do to defend himself was follow instructions from the 911 dispatcher – someone with a legitimate connection to law enforcement. All he had to do was stay in his truck.

    In my book, if you stalk someone and create a totally needless confrontation, “self-defense” does not enter the picture. This was a premeditated confrontation, Zimmerman was told to leave the kid alone, and he decided not to because he was tired of “them” “getting away with it”

    3/24: 14:08 Zimmerman created an entirely avoidable confrontation. There is simply no defense for what he did.

    17:59: Even assuming that any of this is true, I am having a little trouble with the idea that a grown man who weighs 200 pounds felt his life was in danger during a scuffle with a kid much, much smaller than him. I am 53, and I like to think that I could handle a kid that size fairly easily if he was not a trained fighter.

    19:03 Possibly the gun made him feel Zimmerman feel brave. Almost certainly in fact. If he was screaming for help because he got hit a few times (again, this assumes this is what actually happend) he sounds like a total pussy.

    Also, I have read Martin weighed 140, which made him a fairly slight kid. I was 6’2? 160 in high school, and I would not have wanted to fight a grown man if there was any way possible to avoid it.

    20:26 @ JKB

    A lean young man who is 6’2?, 160 lb.
    Of course, if he got on top of you, hitting you, perhaps you’d change your mind.

    Really, just stop. What we had here was a scared, skinny kid who just wanted to get back to his father’s house where he would be safe.

    You’ve morphed him in to a lean, black fighting machine. God help you if he gets on top of you.

    It’s beyond weak, even from you.

    23:55 I’m tired of this conversation. Zimmerman is a wanna be cop who was doing DIY profiling. As a result, a child who was on his way home from buying some candy at the 7/11 is dead. Take your apoliga elsewhere.

    3/26: 20:28 A couple of punches from a skinny kid is a reason to kill him? That was his only option? Are you serious??

    3/27 16:23 What people are you referring to? The ones who are pissed because, once again, a black man is dead in America and there does not appear to be much in the way of consequences for the one who is responsible?

    I, like quite a few others, have been watching this shit go on for longer than you have been alive. You will have to excuse us if we are ticked off that it has happened yet another time.

    22:12 Let’s also recall that Zimmerman claimed Martin jumped him from behind & sucker punched him.

    To me, this claim does not pass the smell test. Too damn convienient. A kid who is frightened because someone is following is going to hightail it home to tell his did about the guy who is stalking him.

    2/28: 20:52 As noted above, his build looks pretty solid. Still not buying the concept that a grown man this size was so overwhelmed in a scuffle with a kid he had at least 40 pounds on that deadly force was his only option.

    21:12 The video of Zimmermann coming into the police station show a guy that looks pretty solid. Not overweight at all, and there is no evidence that he was out of shape, that is simply fiction. Nor is there any visible sign of head injury. You would think a guy who had his head repeatedly “bashed into the pavement” would maybe have some dressing applied by the EMTs.

    What we have is a skinny kid and a grown man with at least 40 pounds on him. And supposedly this kid was so formidable that deadly force was Zimmermans only option. It now appears that the local PD did something right, the guy was in cuffs.

    3/29: 18:59 According to some of the knuckle heads here, Martin was the #2 contender for the UFC championship and Zimmermann’s head was nearly caved in. You would never know from looking at this video that he was supposedly badly beaten. I see no evidence of any injuries.

    3:30 14:58 The new video makes Zimmermann’s story look even thinner. No visible injuries, no visible blood either from a broken nose or gunshot splatter – and he is moving very easily for someone who was supposedly badly beaten in a life and death struggle. He does not look either overweight or out of shape, in fact he looks very solid.

    Not buying the story that much lighter Martin one punched him with a blow to the face that both broke the nose and flattened a 200 pound man. A kid that fought golden gloves might do that, but as far as I know, there is no evidence that Martin had boxing or martial arts skills.

    4/13: 15:15 the behavior exhibited by Martin goes way beyond permissible self-defense

    HOLDING ZIMMERMAN DOWN???

    We wait with baited breath for some evidence that this is what actually happened beyond a self serving statement made by the guy with the smoking gun standing next to the dead body.

    15:22 Certainly his booking photo shows no evidence that he had just received a beating that raised to the level of life threatening, or anywhere near it. He did not really even look as if he had been in a fight.

    How handy the “search” and “find” functions can be…

  32. anjin-san says:

    @ mattb

    but I still have a hard time seeing my way to Murder 2 for all the reasons cited in previous threads.

    I thought manslaughter would have been the correct charge.

  33. anjin-san says:

    That’s great Jenos – since you had time to go back and find all my comments, I am sure you will have time to disprove them. Be sure to provide actual proof that they are false, links from valid news sources and so on. Keep in mind that evidence has emerged gradually, such as the images that actually show Zimmermann was hurt. Be sure your timeline makes sense.

  34. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: Why should your comments be considered in context, when mine weren’t? Have you gone back and corrected your repeated statements that Zimmerman outweighed Martin by “at least 40 pounds,” when it’s more like 10-20? Your declaration that Zimmerman showed no signs of injury? That Zimmerman stalked Martin after the 9/11 operator told him “you don’t need to do that,” when a bit of analysis shows that almost certainly didn’t happen?

    (To recap that one: the operator noted Zimmerman was panting slightly, and asked if he was following Martin. When Zimmerman confirmed that, she then said “you don’t need to do that.” Consequently, Zimmerman spent at least 93 seconds giving his location to the operator, which would be difficult if he was still moving. Further, he was no longer short of breath, indicating he was no longer pursuing him.)

    Yeah, I made mistakes, and I admitted them. You, on the other hand, seem to want the benefit of the “that was what I heard at the time” excuse that you deny me. Sorry, chump — you hold yourself as better than me. So that means that, if anything, you have to hold yourself to a higher standard than you hold me to — not a lower one.

  35. anjin-san says:

    On second thought Jenos, skip it. As someone just correctly pointed out on another thread, I am breaking my own “don’t feed the idiot Jenos” rule. Adios.

  36. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: Keep in mind that evidence has emerged gradually, such as the images that actually show Zimmermann was hurt.

    Which is why I was arguing for a bit of patience and letting the story develop on its own, instead of immediately rushing to judgment. Thanks for making my argument for me, after spending literally weeks bashing it.

  37. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: Too late. Your own hypocrisy was too easy to expose. I didn’t see your backing off until I’d already taken up your challenge and demonstrated your double standards.

  38. Dazedandconfused says:

    @mattb:

    I think the only quibble we have is about how I was making you defend Idaho.

    Nevermind. Not worth pursuing.

    Best wishes.

  39. Dazedandconfused says:

    Edit above: “Idaho” should be “Indanian”

  40. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Dazedandconfused: CURSE that autocorrect…

  41. @anjin-san:

    That’s great Jenos – since you had time to go back and find all my comments, I am sure you will have time to disprove them.

    How about you provide the links to prove them? You are, after all, the one making the claims.

    On second thought Jenos, skip it. As someone just correctly pointed out on another thread, I am breaking my own “don’t feed the idiot Jenos” rule. Adios.

    Back to “LALALALA, I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!!!” again?

  42. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Simple question, simple answer: Trayvon Martin was found guilty of walking thru a white neighborhood while black and was summarily executed for said offense.

    True or false?

    Answer MF’ers….. or STFU.

  43. Trumwill says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: “summarily executed” does not appear to be a remotely accurate portrayal of what happened. I do believe that race played a significant role in Martin attracting the attention that resulted in his death.

  44. Jenos Idanian says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Undetermined at this point, but so far the evidence for False far, far outweighs that for True.

  45. Jeremy R says:

    Zimmerman today:

    “I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. I did not know if he was armed or not.”

    Zimmerman on the 911 tape:

    Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

    Zimmerman: He’s got button on his shirt, late teens.

    Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

    Beyond that, exactly what kind of ‘apology’ was that exactly? It seemed unnecessarily filled with obnoxious equivocations and excuses, and a distinct lack of remorse.

  46. anjin-san says:

    @ Stormy

    How about you provide the links to prove them?

    Don’t really feel the need. Look at my comments, you will see a lot of.

    > In my book
    > To me, this claim does not pass the smell test
    > Not buying the story that much lighter Martin one punched him with a blow to the face that both broke the nose and flattened a 200 pound man.

    It’s pretty clear these are my opinions.

    And things like : Ah, you must mean thugs like Zimmerman. After all, he stalked, then shot a citizen who was going about his lawful business.

    How is this factually incorrect? Granted, there is more to the story, but this is the bottom line.

    > We wait with baited breath for some evidence that this is what actually happened beyond a self serving statement made by the guy with the smoking gun standing next to the dead body.

    I still have not seen the evidence. Zimmermanns head could have gotten injured any number of ways in a fight. If I was on top of someone bashing their head into the pavement, I don’t think they would get up at all, so I am not really buying the “bashing his head in” thing. Any significant head injury would almost certainly lead to a trip to the ER. I am not that impressed by the photo of Zimmerman’s bloody head, even a superficial head wound can bleed heavily.

    There is one thing we just can’t get around in this story. Martin was a kid walking home. A citizen going about his lawful business. An entirely needless confrontation was created by Zimmermann playing cop. The whole thing should have never happened in the first place.

    It would be perfectly reasonable to for Martin conclude that Z may well be deranged, or himself a criminal, and that he needed to defend himself. What would any of us do in his place? Martin probably thought Z was dangerous. If so, he was correct.

    Why are some people anxious to make Martin out as the bad guy? He was a kid walking back to his dad’s house with some candy in his pocket. Period.

  47. anjin-san says:

    ““I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was,”

    What is up with this? In the 911 call he told the dispatcher he thought Martin was in his late teens.

    http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html

  48. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: Zimmerman’s probably still thinking about that cherubic picture of 12-13-year-old Martin that was the first image released…

    OK, now to introduce a bit of reality to your little self-serving narrative:

    Zimmerman’s story:
    pursued Martin until 911 dispatcher suggested he not do so; confronted by Martin; Martin threw first punch, which knocked him to the ground; Martin then got astride him and bashed his head against the ground; Zimmerman, fearing for his life, pulled the gun and shot Martin once.

    Things we know or can reasonably conclude:

    Zimmerman stopped chasing Martin at least a minute and a half before the confrontation.
    Martin was 6′ tall, about 160 lbs., and an athlete.
    ZImmerman is 5’9″, and weighed between 170 and 190 at the time of the incident.
    In boxing terms, Martin would be at the top limit of the middleweight class, and Zimmerman 2-3 weight classes heavier.
    An eyewitness to part of the fight puts Martin on top of Zimmerman.
    There have been no reports of any other injuries to Martin besides the gunshot.
    Zimmerman had at least two significant injuries to the back of his head.
    Martin was shot at such close range, there were powder burns on his sweatshirt and skin.

    So, here’s a narrative that is consistent with but not proven by the known facts:

    Zimmerman pursues Martin while on the phone to 911. The operator suggests (but does not order, as she has no legal authority to give Zimmerman orders) that he stop. Zimmerman stops and gives his present location to the dispatcher. Martin, with at least a minute and a half of not being pursued, instead of returning to the home where he is staying, turns and confronts Zimmerman. Martin escalates the confrontation into a fight by throwing the first punch, hitting Zimmerman in the nose and knocking Zimmerman to the ground. He then gets astride Zimmerman and starts bashing his head against the pavement, leaving several bloody injuries to the back of Zimmerman’s head. During the struggle, Zimmerman’s legally-concealed gun becomes visible. Martin goes for the gun — perhaps to use it, perhaps to simply disarm Zimmerman — and a struggle for the gun ensues. Zimmerman ends up controlling the gun enough to press it against Martin and pull the trigger once. The one shot is sufficient to kill Martin.

    There. A story of two people making bad decisions, ending up with one injured and the other dead.

    But no murder. Hell, “manslaughter” would be a tough case to make — the facts far more support Zimmerman’s story that he did not initiate either the confrontation or the conflict more than they challenge it.

    And all those who pushed the story that this was a case of some rogue racist cop-wannabe hunting down and murdering an innocent child need to be thoroughly shamed for their actions, and never allowed to live down what they did here.

    They won’t, of course. Hell, Al Sharpton skated on both the Tawana Brawley case and the Freddie’s Fashion Mart murders, and still managed to inject himself into this story. There’s little history of these race-hustlers and assorted bigots ever being called to account for themselves. And as we see above, anjin is totally unapologetic for his perpetuating the lies surrounding this case.

    But, dammit, they should be held accountable.

  49. al-Ameda says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Three things:
    (1) a central question: Why wasn’t Zimmerman detained pending an investigation in the first place? The Sanford Police Department did not do its job.
    (2) an opinion: If the situation was the same except that that a black man shot and killed a white/hispanic kid you’d better believe that the Sanford Police Department would have detained the assailant pending an investigation.
    (3) a related opinion: Race was definitely involved, see number (2).

  50. Jeremy R says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Zimmerman’s probably still thinking about that cherubic picture of 12-13-year-old Martin that was the first image released…

    No he’s not. Look at his half-assed apology again:

    I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am.

    Zimmerman is in his late twenties, so he’s saying to (let’s be honest here) the television audience and the potential juror pool, that he didn’t think Martin was his actual age, 17, but instead thought he was a mid-twenties man. Unfortunately for Zimmerman, his real-time estimation of Martin’s age on the 911 tapes was extremely accurate:

    Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

    Zimmerman: … late teens.

    Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

  51. Jenos Idanian says:

    @al-Ameda: 1) Under Florida law, as I understand it, if Zimmerman had been “detained,” then the clock would have started ticking for them to file charges. By not keeping him, they kept their options open. He apparently cooperated with them fully, answering all their questions and not lawyering up. That counts for quite a bit.

    2) Hypothetical. There’s no way of telling. After all, they’d tried to keep quiet a (white) cop’s son beating a homeless black man, but public pressure (apparently including Mr. Zimmerman) brought that to light. So the “racist cops” angle might have been balanced by the “this guy’s a pain in the ass” aspect.

    @Jeremy R: My comment was a bit sarcastic. But I don’t see how it’s overly relevant to the story, compared to the actual facts surrounding the shooting.

    Personally, I think of “late teens” as 18-19 — as in “legal adult.” Martin was 17, which translates to “child.” Add in that he was actually taller than Zimmerman, and it’s spin — wrong, but understandable, and not overly relevant.

  52. Jeremy R says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Personally, I think of “late teens” as 18-19 — as in “legal adult.” Martin was 17, which translates to “child.

    The difference of a year or two so drastically changes the value of a life?

  53. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Jeremy R: In the eyes of the law, yes, in many ways. Martin couldn’t have legally signed a contract, for one.

  54. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Jeremy R: And exactly how does it affect the situation if Martin was 17. 18, 19, or 53? Should Zimmerman have asked for ID between head-slams?

  55. G.A. says:

    Simple question, simple answer: Trayvon Martin was found guilty of walking thru a white neighborhood while black and was summarily executed for said offense.

    Tom are you filling for Harry?

    I say false, indoctranatedly racistly false….

    And Anjin is/ was just making crap up and regurgitating race bate crap to fit his narrative and like all good liberals now believes his own crap, is real crap…..

  56. Socrates says:

    I see, so, you always err on the side of killing someone if you don’t have all of the facts. In the heat of the moment, you just don’t have time to figure out if the guy is armed or not. So, you just kill him.

    Check. Got it.

  57. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Socrates: As what you say bears absolutely no resemblance to the facts of this particular case, I have no idea why you brought up your little hypothetical. It’s pretty clear that Martin did have a deadly weapon that he was using at the time — the pavement he was bashing Zimmerman’s head into. It’s not as good as a gun, but it was more than adequate for the job.

  58. anjin-san says:

    @ Jeremy R

    It seems fairly clear, based on the 911 transcript, that Zimmermann lied on the stand in regards to his estimate of Martin’s age. As for not knowing if Martin was armed or not, Zimmermann had no reason to believe that Martin was armed, except perhaps because of a preconception that young black men are inherently violent or dangerous. I would be curious to hear a professional assessment of Zimmermann’s mental state. How deep was he into his cop fantasy?

  59. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: It seems fairly clear, based on the 911 transcript, that Zimmermann lied on the stand in regards to his estimate of Martin’s age.

    Which might get him in a slight bit of trouble later, but has absolutely no relevance as to his current charges.

    As for not knowing if Martin was armed or not, Zimmermann had no reason to believe that Martin was armed, except perhaps because of a preconception that young black men are inherently violent or dangerous.

    Unless Zimmerman was first alerted not by Martin’s race, but behavior, and was concerned that a potential burglar might carry either a weapon or something that could be used as a weapon (screwdriver, pry bar, etc.)

    Either way, ZImmerman apparently didn’t take any actions contingent on whether or not Martin was armed — he was apparently already carrying his gun (legally).

    anjin apparently is operating under his 17th fallback position — if Zimmerman did anything the slightest bit wrong at any point — before, during, or after the shooting — then he’s 100% guilty of everything. Sadly for him, our legal system doesn’t work that way — if Zimmerman did perjure himself at the hearing, that is an entirely separate matter from the facts of the current case. It can be used to impeach his testimony, but only if he takes the stand. Further, it would be pretty much the only thing to contradict the details of his story.

    At this point, though, Zimmerman could probably not take the stand and walk. The prosecution has admitted they have no evidence he initiated the confrontation or the fight, and the other evidence indicates (but doesn’t prove) that Martin initiated both. If Martin doesn’t take the stand, the prosecution won’t have the chance to bring it up.

    And it probably will never matter. If Zimmerman’s convicted, then it would be “piling on” and redundant. If he’s acquitted, then it would look like sour grapes.

    Besides, it was in the context not of presenting evidence, but a statement to the victim’s family. It simply isn’t that important.

    Unless, of course, you’re rabidly invested in seeing Zimmerman punished for anything, and you’ve invested way too much of your ego into showing him to be some psycho racist killer, at which point anything apparently goes…

  60. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Jenos Idanian: I might need to correct myself here. Zimmerman’s remark about not knowing Martin’s age apparently wasn’t in testimony, but in a statement. Which would likely mean he wasn’t under oath, and therefore could not have committed perjury. Much like how Clinton’s “I did not have sex with that woman” wasn’t perjury, but his denial to the grand jury was.

    So there goes the potential perjury rap, leaving only the potential use to impeach his testimony… which he might never give.

    Sorry, anjin, but your slim thread just turned into a single strand…

  61. G.A. says:

    I just can’t get over the fact of how white this guy looks…lol…he reminds me of Obama our first Black/Caucasian Prez. If I had a son he just might look like a mix of them both, or, maybe not.

    It makes me wonder why this guy lasted more then a day living in let alone driving a moving truck up to house in any gated white community or white neighborhood.

  62. An Interested Party says:

    Unless Zimmerman was first alerted not by Martin’s race, but behavior, and was concerned that a potential burglar might carry either a weapon or something that could be used as a weapon (screwdriver, pry bar, etc.)

    …or a bag of Skittles or a bottle of iced tea…

    anjin apparently is operating under his 17th fallback position — if Zimmerman did anything the slightest bit wrong at any point — before, during, or after the shooting — then he’s 100% guilty of everything.

    Meanwhile others seem to feel that if Martin did anything the slightest bit wrong at any point then he 100% deserved to get shot…

  63. anjin-san says:

    @AIP

    Zimmermann was indeed alerted by Martin’s behavior. Walking while black. Very suspicious. The Skittles were probably a ruse…

  64. Jenos Idanian says:

    @An Interested Party: Meanwhile others seem to feel that if Martin did anything the slightest bit wrong at any point then he 100% deserved to get shot…

    Mr. Interested Party, please meet Mr. Bleeding Back Of Zimmerman’s Head. Mr. Bleeding Back Of Zimmerman’s Head, meet Mr. Interested Party. Then, Mr. Bleeding Back Of Zimmerman’s Head, would you be so kind as to introduce Mr. Interested Party to Ms. Reality? I am fairly certain they have never met…

  65. An Interested Party says:

    Ahh, I see…the next time I am in Florida and want to shoot someone, I’ll be sure that I’m alone with that person and that I have some blood on the back of my head after I shoot that person…

  66. Jenos Idanian says:

    @An Interested Party: You might also arrange for there to be no witnesses anywhere, except for one who will conveniently verify that your victim was on top of you bashing your head into the pavement. And you also better arrange for your victim to come to you. And don’t forget to bash up your nose, too. That’s a big help.

    Your best bet, though, is if you want to kill someone in Florida, is to disguise yourself as a young black man — preferably a gang member — and shoot another young black man. About 90% of blacks are murdered by other blacks. Similarly, 85% of murdered whites are killed by other whites. It’s the tiny minority of cases that get the most attention.

    Good thing you’re just an internet tough guy, all talk and no action. Otherwise, I’d be worried about your contemplating random murder.

  67. An Interested Party says:

    And you also better arrange for your victim to come to you. And don’t forget to bash up your nose, too.

    And the evidence for this, other than Zimmerman’s word?

    Your best bet, though, is if you want to kill someone in Florida, is to disguise yourself as a young black man — preferably a gang member — and shoot another young black man. About 90% of blacks are murdered by other blacks. Similarly, 85% of murdered whites are killed by other whites.

    Completely irrelevant to this case, of course…

    Good thing you’re just an internet tough guy, all talk and no action.

    You’re projecting again…

  68. anjin-san says:

    @AIP

    I don’t think anyone is going to overcome Jenos’ Zimmermann fetish…

  69. mattb says:

    @Socrates:

    I see, so, you always err on the side of killing someone if you don’t have all of the facts. In the heat of the moment, you just don’t have time to figure out if the guy is armed or not. So, you just kill him.

    Check. Got it.

    If you are in a verbal confrontation, in general, you should do what is possible to de-escalate the situation. And under these circumstances you should try and establish things like (a) is this person armed and (b) is this person a threat and (c) is this person going to attack or just having a bad day and blowing off steam.

    One of the problems I have with the “stand your ground” law is that it seems to me to allow for the escalation of violence from verbal/emotional to physical under the general rubric of “standing one’s ground.”

    However, once any degree of serious physical violence has occurred, your only immediate moral obligation is to ensure that you survive the conflict. That doesn’t necessarily mean killing the other person, but it does mean using what you consider at the moment to be a necessary level of violence to escape the situation. And that level of violence goes up as the level of attack goes up. If (and this is an *if*) Martin was repeatedly bashing Zimmerman in the face, then shooting could have been a warranted SD response.

    However, if in the harsh light of day Zimmerman regrets shooting Martin, then that’s a sign that it probably was excessive. Sadly, even thought it might have been excessive, that doesn’t necessarily make it illegal.

  70. mattb says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Unless Zimmerman was first alerted not by Martin’s race, but behavior, and was concerned that a potential burglar might carry either a weapon or something that could be used as a weapon (screwdriver, pry bar, etc.)

    And this is the point where you need to bend over backwards to defend Zimmerman based on the evidence at hand (i.e. the 911 transcript):

    Zimmerman: … there’s a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
    […]
    Dispatcher: OK, he’s just walking around the area…
    Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.

    So what we have here is a young man walking back to a home in the rain and looking at houses.

    Zimmerman clearly started following him because (a) he didn’t recognize Martin, (b) he was walking in the rain and looking at houses, and (c) the fact that Martin clearly fit his profile of a “criminal” — young, dressed in “street” clothes, was young, and the right (or wrong) color (I’m sorry, race needs to be taken into account here).

    As to the question of mitigating circumstances, like time of night, let me remind that the 911 call was placed at 7.06pm on a Sunday. That’s hardly late at night. Further, statistically speaking most break-ins occur during the day.

  71. anjin-san says:

    @ mattb

    So what we have here is a young man walking back to a home in the rain and looking at houses.

    Zimmerman clearly started following him because (a) he didn’t recognize Martin, (b) he was walking in the rain and looking at houses, and (c) the fact that Martin clearly fit his profile of a “criminal” — young, dressed in “street” clothes, was young, and the right (or wrong) color (I’m sorry, race needs to be taken into account here)..

    It’s pretty hard to get around this. I know a few of my neighbors reasonably well. I have nodding acquaintance with perhaps a dozen. There are a few hundred people living in my neighborhood that I don’t know and would not recognize on sight. My neighbors also have guests, I don’t know them. I don’t see that I have any right to question their right to be on the street. If I see something I am not comfortable with, I call the police and let them deal with it. Period.

    Why did Zimmermann do what he did? I come up with two possibilities – One, he is unstable, and has a fantasy world going where he is Andy Sipowicz, patrolling the streets, looking for skells and hinky behavior. Two, in his mind, young black men are simply likely to be trouble. They are guilty until proven innocent. The conclusion that Martin was “up to something” “might be on drugs” or might be armed had no basis in fact. You have to wonder about the mental state of someone who has made so many 911 calls, including calls for things that are utterly trivial.

    Why do some people champion Zimmermann with such zeal? He may or may not have committed a crime, but it is certain that when he took it upon himself to conduct armed patrols of his neighborhood, he set off a chain of events that left a young man dead – an entirely avoidable tragedy. Well, he will get his day in court.

    I can’t help but suspect that there are a lot of people out there that hold the opinion that black males are trouble, plain and simple. I don’t see how else one reaches the rather fantastic conclusion that Zimmermann broke off the pursuit, and Martin, now in the clear and able to simply go back to his Dad’s, chose to go after Zimmermann, launch an unprovoked attack, and start to beat Zimmermann to death. To me that idea indicates a belief system that says Martin MUST somehow be at fault, simply because of who he was.

  72. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: I’m not championing Zimmerman, you doofus. You’re villainizing the hell out of him, and I’m trying to bring a bit of reality to things.

    No, I don’t accept Zimmerman’s story at face value. But so far, pretty much all the evidence released supports his story far more than it challenges it.

    — Zimmerman chased Martin down: Probably BS. Zimmerman started following Martin, then stopped when the 911 operator suggested he need not do so. I’ve outlined the argument supporting that several times already.

    — Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. Probably BS. Zimmerman stopped pursuing Martin at least 93 seconds before the confrontation, giving Martin plenty of time to return to the home where he was staying. That there was a confrontation indicates that Martin chose not to do so, but returned to confront his would-be pursuer.

    — Zimmerman started the fight. Probably BS. Zimmerman’s documented injuries are consistent with his account; the reports released so far on Martin don’t reveal any injuries from being struck by Martin. True, there might not have been time between his being hit and him dying for such signs to develop, but he didn’t have a split lip, bloody nose, or anything else obvious that would indicate Zimmerman ever laid a hand on him before shooting him.

    I know you are delighted to be at the front of the “Lynch Zimmerman” mob, and probably donated to the Black Panthers “Dead Or Alive” bounty on him, but the facts aren’t bearing out your little racist fantasies, where you get to be the hero for standing up to the murderous white supremacist (who’s a wee bit too brown to make the cut, but details don’t matter).

    So, anjin, have you even addressed your statements about how Zimmerman “chased down” Martin? Defended them, admitted you were wrong, or anything? Or do you want to just pretend you never said them?

  73. anjin-san says:

    Take your meds dude.

  74. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: You want God’s honest truth, anjin? I looked at the people who were so dead-set at condemning Zimmerman and took a calculated risk that they — well, you and yours — were totally wrong. Then, as more and more details emerged about how “your side” was acting (the NBC edits of the 911 tapes, ABC first obscuring the police video that would have shown Zimmerman’s injuries, the involvement of Al Sharpton and the New Black Panthers, Zimmerman called first “white” and then “a white Hispanic,” and so on), the more confident I felt.

    And as more and more details emerge, it becomes clearer that your side’s narrative was — as I suspected — totally bogus. And while I’m most satisfied to see the truth prevail, there’s a part of me that greatly enjoys seeing your side’s argument totally collapse — and revels seeing the spin you come up with to spin things. It’s endlessly entertaining.

  75. An Interested Party says:

    You’re villainizing the hell out of him, and I’m trying to bring a bit of reality to things.

    Oh sure, that “reality” being trying to smear Trayvon Martin…

    …but the facts aren’t bearing out your little racist fantasies…

    Actually, what appears to be a racist fantasy is trying to paint Trayvon Martin as a thug-wannabe…

  76. Jenos Idanian says:

    @An Interested Party: The current facts in evidence indicate that Martin was at least as much of the aggressor in the confrontation. It seems he’d gotten clean away from Zimmerman, then returned to confront him.

    He was also a football player, and they aren’t exactly renowned for being timid and bashful.

    On the other hand, Martin had apparently been busted for pot, and put users are not the most aggressive of sorts.

    That’s simply the facts of the case. If they make it inconvenient for your narrative, then perhaps you should reconsider your narrative.

  77. anjin-san says:

    @AIP

    Actually, what appears to be a racist fantasy is trying to paint Trayvon Martin as a thug-wannabe…

    Yep.

    beating Hispanic’s heads against the pavement when the “dis” someone.

    donated to the Black Panthers

    Al Sharpton

    There has also been some nonsense about Tawana Brawley, Spike Lee, “Race Hustlers” and so on.

    I doubt that Jenos has a clue about the extent to which he has outed himself regarding his feelings about black folks. Certainly it is no surprise he empathizes with Zimmermann, and feels Martin must be at fault.

    As for “villainizing” Zimmermann – no help is needed from me on this score. He may or may not be a criminal, but he is a villain. A creepy guy driving around with a gun. Is there anyone here who’s skin does not crawl at the thought there might be another Zimmermann driving by their house with a gun?

    Zimmermann jumped to utterly baseless conclusions about Martin being on drugs, armed, suspicious – do I think it was based on race? Hell yes. At the end of this sad tale, a kid who was walking home from the store after buying some candy lies dead.

    And then, in a totally self-serving “apology” in court, Zimmermann lies to Martin’s parents face about not knowing how young he was, when in fact, the estimate he made on Martin’s age in the 911 call was very accurate.

  78. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: You really need to get over the thumping I gave you.

    I didn’t introduce the racial element; I just noted some of those who’ve been pushing it, and their backgrounds. It’s hardly racist to note that a large number of the leading figures in pushing the “lynch Zimmerman” side have a very, very poor record on race relations and general good conduct.

    Feel free to demonstrate where my current narrative is incorrect. Note I’m not saying that is what happened, but it’s entirely consistent with the current known facts.

    Alternately, please give your own version, where Zimmerman did something actually criminal. Not just bad or stupid, but genuinely against some law.

    Oh, and just to be clear, make yours consistent with the known facts. I shouldn’t have to spell that out, but I thought I better spell it out.

  79. anjin-san says:

    Yawn.

    Boring guy becomes blog attention whore. Film at 11.

  80. An Interested Party says:

    It seems he’d gotten clean away from Zimmerman, then returned to confront him.

    Oh? And the “facts” establishing that are?

    He was also a football player, and they aren’t exactly renowned for being timid and bashful.

    Ah. but they’re not all thugs…

    If they make it inconvenient for your narrative, then perhaps you should reconsider your narrative.

    Umm, I have no narrative…

  81. anjin-san says:

    Oh? And the “facts” establishing that are?

    The world wonders…

  82. Jenos Idanian says:

    @anjin-san: @An Interested Party:

    Remember the infamous 911 tape, where Zimmerman did NOT say Martin looked suspicious because he “looked black,” despite NBC’s best editing efforts? Let me repeat myself.

    (To recap that one: the operator noted Zimmerman was panting slightly, and asked if he was following Martin. When Zimmerman confirmed that, she then said “you don’t need to do that.” Consequently, Zimmerman spent at least 93 seconds giving his location to the operator, which would be difficult if he was still moving. Further, he was no longer short of breath, indicating he was no longer pursuing him.)

    Oh, and anjin?

    Boring guy becomes blog attention whore. Film at 11.

    Don’t be so harsh on yourself.

  83. anjin-san says:

    @ AIP

    Don’t you know? Wingnut Opinion = Fact.

    It’s the unified field theory of the fringe right.