Open Forum

Where you can't be off topic because there IS no topic.

The floor is yours.

James Joyner
About James Joyner
James Joyner is Professor and Department Head of Security Studies at Marine Corps University's Command and Staff College. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm veteran. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter @DrJJoyner.


  1. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Injecting yourself with dog insulin? Just a normal day in America

    Sports media giant ESPN recently published an in-depth and supposedly inspirational feature on Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) hopeful Jordan Williams, who fought for a lucrative UFC pro contract, on 23 July. It described how the true fighter has persevered through difficulties, training hard and smart to rise to the top despite many setbacks, including his type 1 diabetes.

    “I’ve been an athlete my whole life, even before I was diagnosed as a diabetic and now long after. I always try to go my hardest and always try to train and push myself to the limit,” Williams explains.

    The article is a standard “triumph over adversity” piece until it casually notes in the 17th paragraph: “Williams doesn’t have medical insurance and cannot afford the treatment. So he buys insulin that’s sold for dogs at Walmart for $24.99 per bottle.”

    It accepts without comment that insulin costs up to $470 a bottle and that Williams considers himself “super lucky” that somebody told him he could use the cheaper, animal-grade substitute. Super lucky?

    Yep! Here in America you can buy and inject yourself with canine insulin with a used hypodermic needle. The article doesn’t say as much but I’ll bet $100 that this practice is ILLEGAL in most EU countries! Ain’t America great?


  2. Teve says:

    I was re-reading Quicksilver, which I first read maybe 10 years ago, but it was just so slow going, and more tedious than I remember, with too many 18th century nobles that I didn’t give a crap about to try to keep them apart. So after 6 weeks I was 250 pages in and I just gave up. Right now I’m just catching up on old issues of Wired, Vanity Fair, and The New Yorker. I need some book recommendations, fiction or nonfiction, anything good.

  3. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Teve: Shadow Divers by Robert Kurson

    In the tradition of Jon Krakauer’s Into Thin Air and Sebastian Junger’s The Perfect Storm comes a true tale of riveting adventure in which two weekend scuba divers risk everything to solve a great historical mystery–and make history themselves.

    For John Chatterton and Richie Kohler, deep wreck diving was more than a sport. Testing themselves against treacherous currents, braving depths that induced hallucinatory effects, navigating through wreckage as perilous as a minefield, they pushed themselves to their limits and beyond, brushing against death more than once in the rusting hulks of sunken ships.

    But in the fall of 1991, not even these courageous divers were prepared for what they found 230 feet below the surface, in the frigid Atlantic waters sixty miles off the coast of New Jersey: a World War II German U-boat, its ruined interior a macabre wasteland of twisted metal, tangled wires, and human bones–all buried under decades of accumulated sediment.

    No identifying marks were visible on the submarine or the few artifacts brought to the surface. No historian, expert, or government had a clue as to which U-boat the men had found. In fact, the official records all agreed that there simply could not be a sunken U-boat and crew at that location.

    Over the next six years, an elite team of divers embarked on a quest to solve the mystery. Some of them would not live to see its end. Chatterton and Kohler, at first bitter rivals, would be drawn into a friendship that deepened to an almost mystical sense of brotherhood with each other and with the drowned U-boat sailors–former enemies of their country. As the men’s marriages frayed under the pressure of a shared obsession, their dives grew more daring, and each realized that he was hunting more than the identities of a lost U-boat and its nameless crew.

    Author Robert Kurson’s account of this quest is at once thrilling and emotionally complex, and it is written with a vivid sense of what divers actually experience when they meet the dangers of the ocean’s underworld. The story of Shadow Divers often seems too amazing to be true, but it all happened, two hundred thirty feet down, in the deep blue sea. (less)

    4 and a half stars at goodreads. Personally, I give it about 9 and a half.

  4. Jen says:

    @Teve: That’s broad…what do you like to read?

    I’ll second @OzarkHillbilly: recommendation of Shadow Divers, it was really good.

    In no particular order, some of my favorites from this year:

    City of Girls by Elizabeth Gilbert
    The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs by Steve Brusatte (Nonfiction=NF)
    The Library Book by Susan Orlean (NF)
    The Far Field
    Light from Other Stars
    House of Broken Angels
    There There by Tommy Orange
    Brain on Fire (NF)

    Last year I read the Red Sparrow trilogy by Jason Matthews, which was not just a fun read (he’s former CIA so better crafted than a lot of this genre), but has surprisingly decent recipes at the end of each chapter…

  5. Teve says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: well I’ll be damned to my local county public library has a copy of that available, and I just put it on hold. Thanks!

  6. Teve says:

    @Jen: and that Elizabeth Gilbert book is checked out but they have a copy of the rise and fall of dinosaurs, so I just put that on hold too. I’m saving your other recommendations in a note file for when I get close to done with those two 🙂

  7. Jax says:

    @Teve: If you like science fiction, try the Otherland series by Tad Williams, if you haven’t read it already. I first read it in the 90’s, when the third book finally came out….read it again a few years ago and enjoyed it even more, since I had all 3 on hand and didn’t have to wait.

  8. MarkedMan says:

    @Teve: I made it through about 1.5 books in that Trilogy and then, like you, just got overwhelmed.

    A couple of odd books that I really liked: The 7 1/2 Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle, and The First Fifteen Lives of Harry August. I found the first by accident and the second because the title resembled the first, but they are very different in style.

    I would also recommend Preet Bahara’s book

  9. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Teve: I would recommend anything by Jon Krakauer except for the fact that I haven’t read everything by him. As is I have read

    Into Thin Air, about the worst single day in the History of climbing Everest

    Into the Wild, which if you’ve seen the movie (I haven’t) you know what it’s about, but the book is probably more horrifying and far more sympathetic to the sorrow felt by all.

    Eiger Dreams,

    “In this extraordinary book, Krakauer presents an unusual fraternity of daredevils, athletes, and misfits stretching the limits of the possible. From the paranoid confines of a snowbound tent, to the thunderous, suffocating terror of a white-out on Mount McKinley, Eiger Dreams spins tales of driven lives, sudden deaths, and incredible victories. This is a stirring, vivid book about one of the most compelling and dangerous of all human pursuits.”

    and Under the Banner of Heaven,

    “At the core of Krakauer s book are brothers Ron and Dan Lafferty, who insist they received a commandment from God to kill a blameless woman and her baby girl. Beginning with a meticulously researched account of this appalling double murder, Krakauer constructs a multi-layered, bone-chilling narrative of messianic delusion, polygamy, savage violence, and unyielding faith. Along the way he uncovers a shadowy offshoot of America s fastest growing religion, and raises provocative questions about the nature of religious belief.”

  10. Teve says:

    @MarkedMan: when I went to save Jen’s recommendations in a note file I saw I’d already put Doing Justice in there 🙂

  11. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Teve: You won’t be sorry. I have shared this book with at least a dozen people and each of them have done the same. Everybody says, “Wow.”

  12. Kathy says:


    Non fiction, if you’re interested in history:

    When Women Ruled the World by Kara Cooney. It’s about six Egyptian women who ruled Egypt, at least temporarily

    Red Land, Black Land by Barbara Mertz, a general Egyptology book.

    The Storm Before the Storm by Mike Duncan, the events that led from the final defeat of Carthage and the conquest of Greece, to the beginning of the fall of the Roman Republic.

    A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson, a concise history of important developments in science and technology

    Or you may care for a podcast. I highly recommend Mike Duncan’s “The History of Rome,” and “Revolutions.” Also Robyn Pierson’s “The History of Byzantium.” For something thematic rather than chronological, try Sebastian Major’s “Our Fake History,” which tackles historical myths, mythical figures, and odd conspiracy theories.

    And also Jeff Wright’s twin works “Trojan War The Podcast” and “Odyssey The Podcast.”

  13. Teve says:

    @Kathy: sweet, I just subscribed my podcast app to all hundred 79 episodes of History of Rome. This is going to help me break my horrible and depressing political podcast tendency.

  14. CSK says:

    @Kathy: I knew Barbara Mertz quite well. Shortly before she died, an interviewer asked her if she had any regrets. “Yes,” she sighed. “That I didn’t drink more gin.”

  15. Kathy says:


    The great thing about getting to a podcast when all episodes are done, is that you never have to wait a week, or more, for new episodes.

    I recall being disappointed he ended the podcast with the fall of the Western Empire (spoiler alert!) rather than continue another 1,000 years to the fall of the Eastern Empire. But having listened to Pierson’s History of Byzantium, I get it now. Pierson’s good, but the material tends to become tedious once the Byzantines pretty much stagnate for centuries.

  16. SenyorDave says:

    This is horrifying in so many ways:

    It is inconceivable that these police officers will continue to remain on the Dallas police force. I think one of the Youtube comments nailed it:
    The most telling part of this whole video, is the EMT. The lack of incredulity when he says, “He’s dead!”, says everything. It’s almost as if that EMT has seen this before from the police.
    IOW, you did it again.
    There is no amount of money that this man’s family could receive form the city of Dallas for the actions of these officers (and the paramedic) that would be too much.

  17. Jen says:

    This entire administration is just so depressing.

    The person heading up the Bureau of Land Management doesn’t believe that the government should even hold federal lands.

    They’ve also reopened Bristol Bay to mining.

    There isn’t going to be anything left to protect even if Democrats do manage to win in 2020.

  18. Monala says:

    @SenyorDave: It’s horrifying, and this man, like Daniel Shaver in Arizona, is white. Police brutality eventually affects everyone.

  19. CSK says:

    @Jen: Oh, sure, but what does that matter as long as you own the libtards?

  20. Monala says:

    I can’t remember if anyone already posted about this. Former Sen. Claire McCaskill talked about how “free stuff from the government doesn’t play well in the Midwest.” Justice Democrats spokesman Waleed Shahid pointed out that farm subsidies are popular in the Midwest, and also noted that Rashida Talib and Ilhan Omar are from the Midwest.

    Then the story really gets interesting: Jonathan Weisman, deputy Washington editor of The New York Times, tweeted that saying that Talib and Omar are from the Midwest is like saying that “John Lewis is from the Deep South, or Lloyd Doggett is from Texas.”

    Folks on Twitter proceeded to rip him a new one, pointing out that you don’t get more Midwestern than Talib, daughter of an autoworker from Detroit, or more Deep South than Lewis, born to sharecroppers in Alabama.

    Shahid responded by saying, “The people who shape our national conversation should be telling the story of how we are all Americans, not repeating Trump’s racism. They do us all a disservice when they echo Trump’s dog whistles that tell us some people are more ‘American’ or ‘Midwestern’ than others — that our lives and our votes matter less than others. We must change the idea that people of color can’t exemplify the region — or the nation — in which we live.”

  21. Teve says:

    @Monala: I became aware of that on Twitter when Amanda Mull from the Atlantic retweeted Weissman, because she’s from Atlanta. It was a shit show.

  22. Teve says:

    This is hilarious. One of the maga people literally told his radio listeners that he lies to them about Democrats, because it doesn’t matter if it’s true as long as it does damage to the Democrats. I heard the audio of this he literally says it:

    On today’s livestream of “The Dilley Show,” MAGA broadcaster and “life coach” Brenden Dilley, who claims to have sources “inside the White House,” proudly admitted to creating and spreading fake news because his mantra is “it doesn’t have to be true; it just has to go viral.”

    “Here’s what I am going to tell you, MAGA,” Dilley said. “It’s not your responsibility to correct fake news against your enemies. That’s the fucking left’s responsibility. Some of you guys don’t get this, you don’t know how to fight, you’re busy being virtue-signaling dickwads.”

    “‘Dilley, why’d you do the fake news about Liz Warren and the mammie pot?’ Because fuck Elizabeth Warren, that’s why,” he continued. “I’ve told all of you: it doesn’t have to be true; it just has to go viral. And I stand by that statement when it comes to our enemies.”

    “You think I know whether Megan Rapinoe is actually a Satan-worshiper?” Dilley asked. “Of course not. I have no idea … Whether she is or isn’t a devil-worshiper doesn’t fucking matter to me. That dirty piece of shit is a horrible representation of the United States of America and our values and if all I’ve got to do is link together a couple of fucking things that make her look like a Satanist to take some shine off that bitch’s moment, I’ll do it every time.”

    “A lot of you don’t know how to fight,” Dilley concluded. “And a lot of you don’t have the fucking guts to do what I am doing because, frankly, you are probably better people than I am.”

    © 2019 Right Wing Watch, a project of People For the American Way.


  23. Teve says:

    Kyle Cheney

    NEW: Rep. Ted Deutch became the 23rd lawmaker to call for an impeachment inquiry since Mueller testified — and with him, a majority of House Democrats now say they’d vote to take that step.

  24. Gustopher says:

    @Teve: Some more book recommendations for you:

    “Cod: a biography of the fish that changed the world” by Mark Kurlansky. Fluffy, inessential non-fiction, and one of the first of those overly specific and narrow views of history books. Good enough to spark a thousand imitators.

    “Dictionary of the Khazars” by Milorad Pavic. He plays with the structure of the novel — it’s a story that plays out over three different time periods, from three different perspectives, and the telling is broken down into encyclopedia entries of various people and objects, so you might have a three entries (from fake Islamic, Christian and Jewish texts) about a particular person. There’s no reason to read in any particular order (which makes it e-book hostile), and each entry is like a little magical realism folk tale of Yugoslavia. It’s either wonderful, or insufferable. (I prefer his book “Landscapes Painted With Tea”, but “Dictionary of the Khazars” is better known and generally considered better)

    “The Cyberiad” by Stanislav Lem. Fun and witty science fiction folk tales about two bickering Builders. Lots of wordplay that must have been a delight or a horror to translate from Russian — I have no idea what the original is like. Lem also wrote “Solaris” which is not fun.

  25. Teve says:

    @Gustopher: I saw both versions of Solaris and read the story and I didn’t really get it, but I used to drink a lot back then 🙂

  26. Gustopher says:

    @Teve: I’m pretty sure the point of Solaris is that you don’t get it… the alien intelligence is simply too alien, and its efforts to communicate through the visitors/ghosts just fails. Dr. Kelvin cannot remember his wife not killing herself, so the visitor/ghost taken from his memories keeps acting that out.

    I have long thought that Solaris would make a fine framework for a science-fiction remake of “Fantasy Island” where wealthy tourists arrive and get visitors formed from their memories of lost loved ones. Dr. Kelvin could be the gracious host and proprietor, and his wife would kill herself every episode. A darker version of Fantasy Island.

    Anyway, “The Cyberiad” isn’t like that at all. In the first story, one of the Builders makes a machine that can make anything starting with the letter N, and shows it off to the other Builder, who challenges it to make Nothing, and hilarity ensues. It’s hard to believe it’s the same author as “Solaris” since it’s…. fun.

    Now, if fun isn’t your thing… then I can recommend a variety of books about the fall of Yugoslavia, and the various genocides and atrocities and people failing to be people…

  27. Gustopher says:

    @Teve: The George Clooney versión of Solaris has one of my favorite lines from any movie ever. When he arrives on the station, the stoner guy says “I could tell you what’s going on, but it wouldn’t really tell you what’s going on.”

  28. Teve says:

    @Gustopher: 😛

  29. Kathy says:

    You know how some weeks feel long and others short? This week feels both long and short. It’s really odd.

    On the one hand, on Monday I had to pick up new license plates(*), but right now that seems like more than a few days ago. On the other hand, today, Thursday, feels like it arrived too soon. Weird.

    (*) All license plates issues before 2013 in the State of Mexico had to be changed. The old ones were “permanent,” while post-2013 they have an expiration date.

  30. grumpy realist says:

    @Teve: Great books I have on my shelf:

    Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard.
    The Art of Memory by Frances Yates.
    Consciousness as the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes (don’t read this unless you want your mind to be totally blown)
    A Perfect Vacuum by Stanislaw Lem
    The Star-Thrower by Loren Eisley (collection of essays)
    Wormholes by John Fowles (collection of essays)
    Europe: Grandeur and Decline by A.J.P.Taylor (collection of essays)
    Le Secret du Roi (in French) which is a wonderful history of Louis XIV’s secret service.
    …and of course A Canticle for Liebowitz by Miller which is in my opinion hands down the best post-apocalypse book EVAH.

  31. DrDaveT says:


    I need some book recommendations, fiction or nonfiction, anything good.

    The Atevi series (aka the Foreigner series) by C. J. Cherryh is now on its 20-somethingth novel and still keeping me anxiously awaiting the next book in the series. A different kind of first contact story. Foreigner is the first book; they all have one word noun-ending-in-er titles.

    The Commonweal series by Graydon Saunders is among my favorite fantasy works of all time. Four books out, another coming soon of a planned seven (?). Self-published hobbyist, because the market for these books is probably microscopic, but I’ve hooked several other people on them. Last I checked they were only available on Google Read and/or Kobo. The first book is called The March North.

    Guy Deutscher has written a really fascinating nonfiction book called Through the Language Glass. Hard to thumbnail, but it is full of fascinating science about how language influences perception and cognition. Specific examples include use of color terms worldwide and historically, Australian languages that require the speaker to know which way is north at all times, and some others that I can’t recall off the top of my head.

  32. Teve says:

    @grumpy realist:

    Consciousness as the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes (don’t read this unless you want your mind to be totally blown)

    literally the only person who’s ever mentioned Julian Jaynes to me, if I’m recalling correctly, was this Ayn Rand devotee I knew in Raleigh who used to complain that quantum mechanics was politically correct nonsense. So perhaps I shouldn’t be leery but I am. 🙂

  33. Teve says:

    Thanks to this thread I’m not going to have to ask anyone for book recommendations for like 2 years 🙂

  34. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Teve: “Only the best people”==”shitty people with shitty values?” WHO KNEW?????

  35. Guarneri says:

    Well, that didn’t take long. Tapes have surfaced of St Elijah calling Baltimore a rat and crime infested city.

    Damned racist. Take your thumb out of your arse and do something Elijah.

  36. Jen says:

    @Teve: Some of the recommendations will pan out, others won’t–it’s hard to pinpoint what someone else might like. (That said, I’m inline with OzarkHillbilly — I enjoyed all of the Krakauer books he listed. Under the Banner of Heaven was astonishing.)

    Heck, I’ve even picked up books in the past, thought they were dull or couldn’t get past p. 100 (my threshold) and then years later I pick them up again and love them.

    It’s one of the more wonderful aspects of borrowing from the library: low commitment level if you don’t like it, just take it back!

  37. Gustopher says:

    @Guarneri: Context matters. Ponder that.

    Shouldn’t you be off businessing or something? I hear you business well.

  38. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Teve: I normally read escapist dreck, so I didn’t think I had any suggestions, but I realized I read a few interesting “quality” (??) NF books to suggest:

    1. A Mafia Murder? The NCA Bombing by Michael Madigan–The NCA was the previous Australian organized crime investigation agency which was reorganized after a leading agent was assassinated. A relative of mine works for the restructured agency as a prosecutor.

    2. The Cultural Revolution: A People’s History, 1962-1976 by Frank Dikotter–Helps me remember how really fukt up we aren’t and how much worst things could be.

    3. The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression by Amity Shlaes

    Mostly, I read stuff like CranBuried Coffee Cake (A Black Cat Cafe Mystery) which, I suspect is not the sort of thing you’re looking for. In case it is though, a good yet trashy read I did recently was Archie Meets Nero Wolfe: A Prequel to Rex Stout’s Nero Wolfe Mysteries.” by Robert Goldsborough.

  39. Teve says:

    @Jen: under the banner of heaven looks like an excellent read but I wonder if it would be too existentially depressing.

  40. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Gustopher: You’re asking Guarneri to ponder something? Seriously?? AND to know what “context” means? Wow!

  41. 95 South says:

    @Guarneri: Ever been there? It’s the truth.

  42. Kathy says:

    On book recommendations, if you like odd settings, I highly recommend Larry Niven’s “The Integral Trees,” and the sequel “The Smoke Ring.”

    The setting is a gas ring orbiting a pulsar (neutron star), that’s thick enough at the center for people to breathe, and to keep water liquid. IMO, it would make for an amazing CGI movie.

  43. Teve says:

    @Kathy: okay I just read Wikipedia’s plot synopsis of the integral trees and…that is… different. 🙂

  44. Kathy says:


    If you like it and want more information on “The State,” the book to read is “World Out of Time.”

  45. Gustopher says:

    @Teve: without too many spoilers, can you just tell me if there are derivative shrubs?

  46. Gustopher says:

    Kevin Drum is sounding like a less grumpy Michael Reynolds here:

    Not saying either of them are entirely wrong.

    Between the twitsphere being the twitsphere, and Trump abusing reasonable positions (“cannot separate families unless the child is in danger” becomes “kids diaper hasn’t been changed fast enough, let’s separate” and you have to oppose that), the Democratic candidates are being pushed into staking out positions at the left-most bounds of plausibly electable.

    I’m surprised that we don’t have a moderate who can communicate a positive vision rather than just the “no, no, no, you’re doing it wrong” of all the Hickenloopers.

    Open Borders isn’t a winning issue. Medicare For All is plausible, but depends on how it is sold and what it means. Etc.

  47. Scott O says:

    A related book is “The Last Dive” by Bernie Chowdhury.

    Thanks everyone for the reading suggestions.

  48. Teve says:

    @Gustopher: Candidates always run to their side in the primaries and then run back to the middle for the general. When Mitt Romney had a dozen primary competitors he was running around saying things like “I’m severely conservative!!”, shit that he never said in the general. This is S.O.P.

  49. Teve says:

    Rep Will Hurd just announced he’s peacin’ up outta this bitch.

    I’ve never noticed so many GOP Congress critters retiring as I’ve seen in the last month.

  50. Jen says:

    Someone created a font using gerrymandered districts as letters and I don’t know if this is depressing, impressive, or a bit of both…

  51. Gustopher says:

    @Teve: How did that work out for Mittens?

    I think it’s a lot harder to pull that off now than in the last century, since now everything ends up online and stays there.

  52. Teve says:

    @Gustopher: Mittens got a bigger share of the popular vote than Trump. He just didn’t draw the inside straight that a republican has to do now to win the presidency.

  53. Kathy says:


    Without any spoilers: no, there aren’t.

    But there are helicopter plants.

    I started re-reading The Integral Trees last night.

  54. Teve says:

    Donald J. Trump

    Really bad news! The Baltimore house of Elijah Cummings was robbed. Too bad!

    7:58 AM · Aug 2, 2019

    a link, in case you don’t believe he actually tweeted that this morning.

  55. Tyrell says:

    @Gustopher: Last summer I read “Dragon Teeth” by Michael Crichton. This novel is some fact, fiction, and legend. Good novels about the west are rare. This one entertains, educates, and keeps you reading.

  56. Teve says:

    billboards in Kentucky are going up that say Moscow Mitch, Ben Folds just released a new song called Moscow Mitch, and Vanity Fair’s podcast is asking the question this week, “Is Mitch McConnell a secret Russian agent, or just an unpatriotic hack?” 6 House Republicans have announced their retirement in the last two weeks including the only black house Republican, So I’m sure Mitch is really happy he thought he could be super shitty and not face any consequences.

  57. Mister Bluster says:

    Rat Jumps Ship
    President Donald Trump said Friday that Rep. John Ratcliffe was out of the running to be the director of national intelligence, saying he told the GOP lawmaker “how miserable it would be for him and his family” to move forward.

    Can’t wait to see who the next goober is that Pud runs up the flagpole.

  58. grumpy realist says:

    @Teve: Your acquaintance must have been someone terrified of modern physics, that’s all I’m saying….

    P.S. Another great book (if you want an explanation of QM) is Banesh Hoffman’s “The Strange Story of the Quantum.”) Dover edition, unfortunately now out of print.

  59. 95 South says:

    @Teve: I never heard of Brenden Dilley. He has 20000 Twitter followers, and his top Youtube has 34000 views.

  60. Teve says:

    @grumpy realist: the three QM classes I had in undergrad were More than Enough for a lifetime. If I never see another Clebsch-Gordon coefficient it’ll be too soon 😛

  61. Kathy says:


    “If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don’t understand quantum mechanics.”

    Attributed to Richard Feynman.

  62. Teve says:

    @Kathy: a once-funny line by feynman that’s now gotten repurposed by creationists to argue that since scientists don’t understand anything they’re talking about–by their own admission!–then creationism must be equally valid. 🙁

  63. Mister Bluster says:

    @95 South:..I never heard of Brenden Dilley.

    Nobody ever heard of you.

  64. Teve says: