Perspective
I cannot help but recommend John Cole’s take on the whole Wright-Obama brouhaha.
As to Wright himself, well, I have my own thoughts. First and foremost, I guess I am no longer the delicate fainting flower that most other bloggers and media commenters are these days. I spent several years in the early days of this blog being all sorts of outraged about petty bullshit. I spent days calling Ted Rall an asshole (he still is, I think), days opining about what an asshole Michael Moore is, and so on. I got my panties all in a bunch about Ward Churchhill (also a dick), and stupid things Bill Maher may or may not have said, and so on.
And you know what? They may be assholes, or jerks, or whatever term you want to use, but they sure as hell didn’t run this economy into the ground. They aren’t responsible for for turning a huge surplus into a several hundred billion dollar deficit. I have yet to read any memos from Barbra Streisand detailing how we should spy on American citizens.
[…]
Or maybe I just refuse to spend any more time and energy getting worked up over and denouncing, distancing, and rejecting the wrong people- people who really don’t matter in the big scheme of things. If you have a memo from Jeremiah Wright to John Yoo showing how we should become a rogue nation, let me know. If you have pictures of Jeremiah Wright voting against the GI Bill, send it to me. If you have evidence of Jeremiah Wright training junior soldiers on the finer aspects of stacking and torturing naked Iraqi captives, pass them on.
Until then, I just can’t seem to get all worked up about the crazy scary black preacher that Obama has to “throw under the bus.”
Whether you agree with John Cole on those particular political issues or not (I do, for the record), there’s no question that among all of the issues one should consider when selecting a President, the crazy opinions of their friends, family and associates shouldn’t exactly be at the top of the pile, should it? Maybe it should be discussed to some degree, but to this extent? Really?
And yet, here we are. Doing just that. Frankly, I’m much more worried about Obama’s trade policies than I am about his church. I have more concerns about Hillary Clinton’s health care proposals than I have about her husband pardoning members of the Weather Underground. I am more anxious about John McCain’s militaristic foreign policy than I am about his wife’s drug problems.
But that’s not what makes headlines, is it?
What are you, some kind of Communist?
Character matters somewhat, wouldn’t you agree?
Obama spent 20 years listening to Wright tout… bullsh*t, to put it lightly. And now he’s feigning some serious outrage towards Wright’s ideas and it looks like a lot of people aren’t buying it.
If Hillary or McCain spent 20 years attending a church that spewed white race supremacy crap and/or peddled ridiculous anti-American conspiracy theories, you’ll have to forgive me if I think you’d be typing the same blog post writing that off.
Nice attempt, though.
John Cole is right that when we look at the big picture this is nothing. But we are not looking at the big picture we are looking at presidential candidates and who they are. Part of who anyone is is the company they keep. That is why we are looking closely at Obama’s mentor Rev. Wright.
If Obama would like us to talk more about his policies then he must take the initiative and put them in the news. Instead he blathers about change and hope and character. That is why we are talking about Wright instead of more substantive things.
I don’t care about the Rev. Wright per se either. If the person listening to him is nodding his/her head in agreement and is also running for president then I am free to draw my conclusions about that candidate. Does/did Mr. Obama agree with Rev Wright’s sermons? I guess we each have to decide that for ourselves.
I think finding out whether a Presidential candidate is a racist is pretty important. If there was a white candidate, who had never publicly made racist comments but attended KKK meetings for 20 years, I think it would be pretty important to find out what was going on there.
Also when you say “run this economy into the ground” are you measuring that on GNP or unemployment numbers from November 2000 until now? Do you propose we solve this by electing a president who’s plan is to immediately raise taxes?
When you throw out the “several hundred billion dollar deficit” quip, do you propose we solve this problem by electing a president who plans on greatly increasing government spending?
Please state, in detail and with sourced references, the racist comments made by Rev. Wright.
Additionally, please detail, with sourced references, the evidence that you have indicating that the Trinity UCC is a racist organization.
Everything ultimately comes down to a person’s character. This is what the real flap is about.
What matters what policy a lying man says he believes in if he is a proven liar? I’ve always loved the relative truth game that liberals allow their leaders to lie with,wink, wink, because it shows they have no idea that a leader who will lie to the GOP will also lie to them.
I find I can believe none of the top three candidates -they all lack character. Something about compromising your way to the top that does it I guess. The most successful deceiver reaches the top -sort of like the Peter Principle of no principle.
“Please state, in detail and with sourced references, the racist comments made by Rev. Wright.”
I for one, will not do your work for you. If you have studied this you know full well what he has said.
I have looked for racist comments made by Rev. Wright. I have not found them. I have found lots of things to disagree with. I have found nothing racist. I have demanded this of several people who have referred to Wright as a racist and received nothing but silence. I see that you’re also in that crowd.
On the other hand, I can easily find references to John McCain casually employing racial slurs. Such as this:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/hongop.shtml
I ask again: where are the contextual references to Rev. Wright making statements. Bonus points if you can demonstrate that such statements were made in a sermon that Obama attended.
Alex,
Take a look at the UCC Trinity website. My takeaway is that it is quite racist. It has an extraordinary us against them view. The “them” are whites. The underlying assumption that whites are inherently racist, in my view is racist.
If you took the “black value system” section and replaced white with black, we would all be freaking out. I think when blacks and whites are treated and viewed in the same way, that’s when racism ceases to exist. Many whites will look at the website and think “well, but the historical injustices, how can we treat blacks the same?” Well maybe we should. I could be how a reasonable person could disagree.
It’s incredibly elitist to tell America what issues its voters ought to consider important. And offensive. But that’s exactly what this post does.
Alex, you and Cole are about as persuasive in this as was Professor Marvel (a/k/a “the Wizard of Oz”) when, having been exposed by Toto, he sputtered: “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!”
Running the economy into the ground? Please. Isn’t a little perspective in order? How old were you in 1980? Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter knew how to run an economy into the ground. George Bush is a piker compared to these two. And the selective outrage is just silly, IMHO.
Personally, I prefer leaders I can trust to think and act appropriately when faced with difficult decisions and problems rather than one who has a utopian ideal all laid out perfectly in his/her position papers. Knowing how they think is at least as important as knowing what they think. But that’s just me.
It is also what every post that says how important this issue supposedly is.
It also elitist to point out that television news is dominated by trivia and gossip rather than news of any real importance, but that makes it no less true. Do you find that observation offensive as well?
Can you provide specifics or is it just a feeling you have about it?
The argument is more along the lines of, the attitudes of people who are subjected to injustices will be shaped by those injustices. If someone grew up under Jim Crowe they will likely have some level of antipathy towards those who enforced that system. Drawing a false equivalence between that antipathy and the system to which it responded makes the gulf wider rather than working to close it.
Regarding the wacky conspiracy theories, it is ridiculous to most and almost certainly false to think that AIDS was invented and or intentionally spread by the US government. It is also ridiculous to think that the government would allow the Tuskeegee experiments, but it did and they would have continued beyond 1972 if information had not been leaked to the press. Prior to that anyone who made those charges was labeled a crackpot conspiracy theorist.
So, what do you think of our current administration?
Yes, really.
The questions you ask assume that the opinions of the friends and family have not had any effect on nor do they reflect thew views of, Obama himself. This supposition is stretched so thin as to require a willing suspension of disbelief, given Obama himself called Wright his mentor and spiritual adviser, spent 20 years in his pews sucking up the racist hatred and enabling the man with his money, and willingly offering his kids up to be taught the same, and given how he spent so much time sucking up to the Marxist crowd, etc, etc, etc.
Sorry, Alex no sale.
Oh… and here’s a clue: Referring to comments from John Cole is not how to convince anyone on these matters. If there’s one thing a perusal of Cole site will indicate, it’s that he’s been a far left apologist for far too long to be considered anything resembling an unbiased source.
As to the current administration, FWIW, I’m not particularly happy with it, but not necessarily for the same reasons as you. Then again, at least President Bush (and Senator McCain) still understand that wars are only won by fighting, and, IMHO, we’re in a war whether we want to pretend we are or not.
Alex, if you do not think the right Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright is a racist, you have not been paying attention. I suggest you read any books written by a Dr. Cone, who shared his belief in black liberation theology with Wright, or listen to Louis Farrakhan call white people devils. I am tired of being blamed for slavery, a practice that ended in this country in 1865. White people lost their lives, having nothing to gain, to end the practice of slavery. People like Wright need to keep the victim hood alive so they can profit off it. Obama listened and liked what he heard for years. Now it is politically poison for him to be associated with those ideas, he is willing to denounce them. I think it should have been done years ago. To bad. This is one individual who’s character was and is being judged, as Martin Luther King suggested. It is not the color of his skin, it is his lack of character that is found wanting.
a practice that ended in this country in 1865.
Or so you think.
Alex,
The problem is that you have no perspective on this. You were fine with saying you shouldn’t judge a campaign by one of its volunteers when it was an Obama volunteer supporting Che. Then you were fine with bashing McCain for something his supporters said until the Wright thing blew up. Then you thought it was bad to judge campaigns by what those around them said. You have been satisfied with what Obama has said about Wright at each stage (not particularly controversial, Obama never heard him say anything controversial, okay Wright said somethings controversial but it Wright’s racism is no worse than the typical white person who was my grandma in fear of being mugged who mentioned that the mugger was black, to Wright doesn’t speak for my campaign to today’s ‘denouncement’ of Wright. For Alex, no explanation of why the changing story for Obama. For Alex Obama can do no wrong.
What is different about what Wright said on Monday and what he has said before? Why (besides political expediency) would Obama not disavow Wright Monday night, but would Tuesday. What changed? Try to come up with an explanation that meshes the various things Obama has said about Wright and his 20 year association with Wright that doesn’t show that Obama was perfectly willing to tolerate and benefit from Wright’s racism until the political cost got to high. Is that really the kind of character you want in a president?
I’m caucasian for starters, Master degree, middle class…Never will members of a majority understand, truly, what it feels like to be second class citizens, to face direct and subtle discrimination, to be judged by the color of your skin. The white majority power structures in the United States have a long and sordid history of oppression and even genocide. The native Americans were systematically wiped out through a variety of mechanisms. The U.S. continued to renege on treaties it forced natives to sign; those violations are tied up today in federal litigation. Read the Tuskegee experiments; 40 years of U.S. government horrors perpetrated against black men. Slavery, false imprisonment, hypocrtical and imperialist foreign policy, dropping nukes in world war, secret renditions, torture, corruption at the highest levels (read: Bush and cronies for recent examples). Get off Rev. Wright’s ass and start looking at the real evil in the world; the racist, hypocritical, distoting abuses of power that exist and always have existed. Don’t pay attention to the red herrings by the power brokers and milk toast mainstream media. Read the message and stop assailing the messenger. This country’s moral standing is on thin ice.
“Frankly, I’m much more worried about Obama’s trade policies than I am about his church.”
Carefully polled and crafted policies do not define the character of someone hoping to lead the country. Close and recent associations do. Who Obama holds as close friends and confidants are the best indication of his private character. He certainly doesn’t have any prior leadership positions to judge him by. Are we to judge Obama only by his “words”? Unfortunately, he’s a politician and everyone knows their words are not, shall we say, stable. If are not to judge Obama by who he holds close, then he is a vapor that is likely to dissipate when the wind changes as policies are by their nature fluid.
Mr. Bosworth,
Do you really believe the various tribes of Native North Americans or blacks on the continent of Africa were living in complete harmony amongst themselves prior to the influence of the white man on their cultures? Brutal practices such as scalping only came in to practice to teach the white man a lesson? Slavery was completely unknown among Africans before the white man discovered their utility? It is not hard to find cruelty in the history of mankind, but the white man is not unique in that regard. Correct me please if I am wrong.
Mr. Bosworth, the perfect remains the enemy of the good. Do you recognize any of the good around you or is it just the evil that gets your attention?
Run, run like the wind!
David don’t ask the majority of people in this country to look in the mirror. They won’t do it. Far easier to talk about evil doers in ________________ (fill in blank) than to tend to one’s own garden.
Why climb the steep and rocky road to actual moral high ground when one can simply put on a lapel pin?
Even though I disagree with you, I like the turn of phrase.
(ps the spambot police say they are holding my last comment hostage…)
Oh, and Alex, quoting Cole, well that part that you chose to drop out,
no, it is the past 25+ years that this man has been a “jackass.” You and your fellow Obamites would just rather the rest of us not notice that.
Cracks me up that you are quoting Cole on “noise machines.”
Did someone say noise machine? Again quoting Cole:
Wow, what honest and impartial “experts” you rely upon to support your POV.
C. Wagener –
I think that you and I might have different views of what the word racist mean. A celebration of one’s ethnic heritage isn’t necessarily racist. Now, I admit that I did not read the whole site, but I did not see anything about demonizing whites. Can you point to a specific link?
yetanotherjohn –
Please quote an example of Wright’s racism. I’ve yet to see any. And the “he quoted Cone, and Cone’s a racist!” is complete BS. After all, I quote Thomas Jefferson all the time, and Thomas Jefferson was a racist. That doesn’t make me one.
You know, the only problem with Beldar’s comment: “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain[…]” is the insuiation that the Freddy Krueger is on the screen.
More likely that he is the one behind the curtain.
But changiness and hopitude sure are great on our Good Morning America breakfast cereal.
So you are the final arbitrator on all that is racism? I still read this site because it has yet to be overcome by the “Sullivan/Cole†petulance extolling pet grievances that fail to animate the greater populace. Seems if you had your way, all objections to Obama’s long-standing relationships would be striken — how democratic…
I am when it comes to my own judgment, yes.
That being said, I have heard many people on many occasions claim that both Rev. Wright and the Trinity UCC are racist. I have asked for evidence to support these claims. With one exception–and we are currently discussing that in this thread–everyone I have asked has avoided the question.
Sorry Alex, that was Match Point, and you lost.
Perspective? Both sides of the widening divide, will view Wright differently (even what is actually under discussion). What had become obvious, was his unwillingness to acknowledge that his views, are only just that (not fact). And that others find them juvenile, even distasteful. Calling him on his BS isn’t only just politics, and or partisanship. And yes, I believe it not winning politics to even bother/worry about Wright.
But he does diminish his own stature, by climbing back atop the stink and reclaiming it. We all get it Reverend, we know where you stand. Your pride greater than your personal moral imperative.
The greater story now of course, is Barack’s political missteps, regards Wright. Campaigns are like that. And in this one, we are just now beginning to see the measure of the Senator from Illinois.
Mark this date and time down; Bains and I agree.
Bains, did you note where I said:
You said it quicker. Nice.
(Chuckle)
Alex, those quotes I put up that so annoy Ajin-san… change the word ‘black’ to ‘white’, and tell me that in that context they’d not be racist, and that you would not be (rightly) screaming about it all. This is not one of those situations where that judgment can be applied asymmetrically. One way or the other, Alex, not both.
So, if you change some words around, and put them in a different context, they become racist? Holy crap, Bit, you’ve stumbled upon a remarkable new utility of our language there.
Context and history matter, and one group saying one thing has one meaning, but another group, even saying the exact same thing, has a different meaning. When a minority wants more than a proportional representation in a society, it’s not oppression. When a majority wants more than a proportional representation in a society, it is.
When drafting the Constitution, Rhode Island wanted proportionately more representation than New York. Had New York demanded more proportional representation than Rhode Island, it would have had a completely different meaning.
Here’s a few that I found this morning. It’s a little difficult to find Wright’s actual quotes on the Internet. There’s been thousands and thousands of articles and blogs written about this, so many that when you search you have to sift through discussion about his comments to find his actual quotes.
“In the 21st century, white America got a wake-up call after 9/11/01,” he wrote on page 7. “White America and the Western world came to realize that people of color had not gone away, faded into the woodwork or just ‘disappeared,’ as the Great White West kept on its merry way of ignoring Black concerns.”
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/02/13/sen_feingold_to_stay_neutral_f_1.html
“We started the AIDS virus. And now that it is out of control, we still put more money in the military than in medicine, more money in hate than in humanitar[ian] concerns. Everybody does not have access to health care, I don’t care what the rich white boys in the city say, brothers…. Listen up, if you are poor, black and elderly, forget it.”
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2307
“We don’t have to say the word “white.” We just have to live in white America, the United States of white America. ”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,256078,00.html
“And One, two, three, four. One, two, three. Now, that’s the European dominant beat. For African and African-American…”
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/28/wright.transcript/
“European and European-American children have a left brained cognitive object oriented learning style and the entire educational learning system in the United States of America.”
he continues…
“African and African-American children have a different way of learning.
They are right brained, subject oriented in their learning style. Right brain that means creative and intuitive.”
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/28/wright.transcript/
Change any of those to a white person saying those things about blacks and there’s a national uproar and demonstrations/marches are being held. Why is it supposed to be OK for a black man to be a racist. He is a bigot and shouldn’t be let off the hook.
Of course there’s also the “garlic nosed” Italians comment and the
On the TUCC web page they say, “We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian… Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain “true to our native land,” the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.”
http://www.tucc.org/about.htm
Replace the word ‘black’ with ‘white’ and that would be national news with or without a Presidential Candidate being a member.
Also I’d like to say that I’m a little surprised that I need to have quotes and linked sources to comment on my opinion about something that’s been so widely talked about throughout the entire nation for the last 5-6 weeks. Have you been living under a rock or do you just deny any of this was said since it is not good for your candidate?
Alex, do you have problems believing that the holocaust actually happened? Maybe we could get someone to state, in detail and with sourced references, some facts about that? Do we get bonus points if we can find video of Hitler actually ordering executions?
Oh and speaking of the holocaust, Rev Wright does not seem to hold any punches with Israel either…
“I must tell you that Israel was the closest ally to the White supremacists of South Africa. In fact, South Africa allowed Israel to test its nuclear weapons in the ocean off South Africa. The Israelis were given a blank check; they could test whenever they desired and did not even have to ask permission. both worked on an ethnic bomb that killed Blacks and Arabs.”
Maybe that quote has been stretched a bit or maybe Wright agrees with his buddy Farrakhan, who gave us another gem last year with this one
“Do you know some of these satanic Jews have taken over BET. Everything that we built, they have. The mind of Satan now is running the record industry, movie industry, and television. And they make us look like we’re the murderers; we look like we’re the gangsters, but we’re punk stuff.â€
http://jewishfactsfromportland.blogspot.com/2008/03/accusations-endorsed-by-pastor-wright.html
FYI – I tried to post a comment and “state, in detail and with sourced references, the racist comments made by Rev. Wright.” However, it was not posted due to the site’s spam filter.
That happens sometimes when you have too many links and not enough text. They go to James for approval before being posted, so yours should appear shortly.
No question some of the good Rev’s thinking/thoughts/speech can be, and are … odious. And yet still I don’t feel he speaks for all churches, blacks, or Christians (in spite of the pedestal he self-carries, and stands upon). And still don’t feel the need to conflate him with Obama.
The damage to Barack’s campaign has been done. He made his choice in type and tenor of response, to the kerfluffle. The Dem partisans thought it be the Gettysburg Address. While the righties saw it for what it was.
Now if we could only make it to November? And a straight up and down vote on the two remaining candidates 🙂
Ok, lets try that:
This doesn’t even make sense, give that Arabs are not generally considered “white people”, let alone coming across as racist.
Aside from being wrong on how AIDS started, this would actually come across as supporting white people. Far from being racist.
I’m still not seeing racism. Fearmongering maybe, but not racism.
Again this makes no sense, but then again I’m not sure what he was trying to say in the original either. Does this seem offensive to anyone else?
This strikes me as wrong from a scientific standpoint, just like the original, but I certainly don’t see racism in it.
Ok, so we tried your thought experiment, and I didn’t see anything racist. Do any black people find the altered quotes racist?
No, they’re racist no matter which race they apply to. Eqaulity, remember?
Only if all things are equal. They are only the same if you disregard the history of race relations in the USA. Similarly, calling Zionism racism wouldn’t get anybody upset if not for the history of antisemitism the Jewish people have faced.
So now Obama shouldn’t be faulted for poor judgement? Pretty surprising since that was the only thing he could actually point to as a prerequisite for the job of POTUS. “Judgement to lead” was a slogan of his campaign, was it not?
If not that, then surely he should be slammed for making a point of calling this guy a spiritual advisor for years, in interviews speeches and books, and now thet he’s affected his campaign he hardly knows the guy? Pretty damn convinient.
So, equality is not what you’re after, then.
got it.
On the contrary, equality is exactly what we’re after. But you can’t just ignore things and say the remainder is equal, therefore everything is equal.
If Bill Gates bought a Honda Civic, and I bought a Honda Civic, you wouldn’t claim that our property values are equal, would you?