Thursday, August 19, 2010
Another day, another depressing poll:
Doesn’t this sort of make the reassurances of mosque opponents that ‘of course we all believe Muslims have a Constitutional right to build a mosque there, we just don’t think they should’ a lie ?
Sadly, yes it does.
All? The poll looks to me like a majority of Americans believe the mosque should not be built at that location and a majority believe they have the Constitutional right to do so.
Even the idea that 1/3 of Americans don’t think there is a Constitutional right in this matter is distressing.
The fact that a majority of self-identified Republicans don’t believe it is down right scary
Where did you find that poll Doug. in your butt?
Looking at the poll, I find it interesting that the region of the country most opposed to the mosque is the NorthEast, but it’s also the region of the country where most people believe there is a Constitutional right.
Also, when told that many legal “experts” say they have the Constitutional right to built it, 18.9% of Americans want to amend the Constitution. (19.9% of Democrats; 17.7% of Republicans; 17.7% Independents)
Doug, that you think it is OK to build Cordoba House at 21 Park with the approval of Hamas and with Iranian money is far more disturbing than the fact at least 1/3 of Americans recognize a future threat to our freedom and way of life. Do you have any idea how Islam spread? Christianity for the most part was spread through teaching, at least until the Romans were converted. Mohammed used the simitar, killing those who disagreed with him. How many did Christ murder? Seems Jesus healed and cured, Mohammed murdered and maimed. Did you know the Cordoba Mosque in Cordoba Spain was build upon the remains of a destroyed Catholic Church? Know who destroyed that church? You want to compare Christian tolerance to Muslim tolerance? Ask those two kids the Taliban stoned to death about tolerance. One of the idiots commenting here said stoning is a rare happening in the Muslim world. So is progressive intelligence in this country. Fact is, stoning happens far more often than it should and it always happens in MUSLIM countries. Sharia law allows for it and where Sharia holds sway, these barbaric practices exist. The Imam of the Cordoba House believes and has stated Sharia should be observed here is should supercede our Constitution.
Doug, that you think it is OK to build Cordoba House at 21 Park with the approval of Hamas and with Iranian money
(a) They haven’t raised money yet; and (b) Whether Hamas approves or not isn’t that relevant, is it? I mean, Hamas also approves of medical clinics for the poor and charity for widows and orphans. Shall we now oppose charity because Hamas approves it?
Christianity for the most part was spread through teaching, at least until the Romans were converted.
That’s a pretty big “until”, dontcha think? Afterwards, Christianity was spread by force, and continued to be until the 20th century. Even the United States government spread Christianity by force.
Mohammed used the simitar, killing those who disagreed with him.
Yes, he did. So did Joshua after the Israelites left Egypt. By that logic, do you condemn all Jews for the conquest of Canaan?
Did you know the Cordoba Mosque in Cordoba Spain was build upon the remains of a destroyed Catholic Church?
Did you know that the Cordoba Cathedral was built upon the remains of a destroyed Mosque? Know who destroyed that Mosque? You want to compare Christian tolerance to Muslim tolerance?
Ask those two kids the Taliban stoned to death about tolerance.
Ask homosexuals in Uganda fighting a bill, sponsored by Christians, that would mandate death by stoning for all gays. Compare that to Muslim Indonesia, where capital punishment of any kind is illegal.
(The point being, of course, that all humans are capable of intolerance, regardless of creed, and just because some members of a particular faith are intolerant does not mean that all members of that faith are intolerant.)
One of the idiots commenting here said stoning is a rare happening in the Muslim world.
That would have been me. I said that because stoning is, in fact, a rare occurance in the Muslim world.
stoning happens far more often than it should
Agreed, if only because once is too many.
and it always happens in MUSLIM countries.
Untrue. It happens in Christian countries as well.
Sharia law allows for it and where Sharia holds sway, these barbaric practices exist.
Some, but not all variants of Sharia accept stoning as an acceptable punishment. Not all, do, and some variants of Sharia forbid all forms of capital punishment. It’s worth noting that in Iran, the judiciary has banned the use of stoning as punishment and the Iranian parliament is currenlty working on a bill that would give the judiciary’s ban the force of law.
The Imam of the Cordoba House believes and has stated Sharia should be observed here is should supercede our Constitution.
I think we need to recruit some new village idiots for OTB. Poor Zels is holding down the job virtually alone. He needs some help. He needs some time off.
Anybody else notice the uneven quality of Zels’s comments? Sometimes they read as if written by an illiterate (see his comment on JJ’s piece on the “proposed library” next to Sarah Palin), sometimes they’re fairly well-written.
“One of the idiots commenting here said stoning is a rare happening in the Muslim world.”
Where was that?
Ah, I see, Alex said it — bad Alex. It seems Zels’s writing deteriorates has his anger level goes up.
NOW can we stop tolerating the bigots here? Or do we have to wait until they actual start lynching muslims before OTB stops letting it’s comments being used to advocate for religious persecution?
Here’s my problem with the pro/con Constitutional Right argument. If it’s ONLY a mosque, then clearly, the right to build wherever any “house of worship” (I only use quotes to indicate a proposed change to NYC zoning laws, which currently use the word “church”) is clear as a first amendment principle. If it’s a secular community center, as Park51 and the Cordoba Initiative have repeatedly stated, then what Constitutional right grants them land use? Clearly not the first amendment.
I’m fully opposed to the community center/mosque. Recently, I was taken to task on my blog where this “constitutional right” argument was used to dismiss all my arguments against it. In other words, the objection was based solely on an interpretation of my remarks as meaning “can’t build” rather than “shouldn’t build.”
I think you’re right. If it is solely a matter for the Constitutional right to build the mosque where other religions would be allowed to do so, then yes, I agree Park51 has that right.
Really, my only problem with the poll is the question about the “appropriateness” of building a mosque where other religions should be allowed to construct a house of worship. I’d like this better if there were also a question about restricting other houses of worship in specifically Muslim neighborhoods. That’s just a little pet peeve.
I do think that I, and others, need to be more careful to draw distinctions between arguments stating “can’t” and “shouldn’t.” I will freely admit to being bigoted against Islam. I will not admit to increasing that bigotry in granularity to include all practitioners of the faith. That’s another distinction I think we all need to be making.
After a quick check, I note that the street and site of the proposed center is zoned for houses of worship. I can find no data on whether it is zoned for community centers, or even if there are local laws restricting community centers in any way, like there are for houses of worship.
At any rate, thanks for this. Interesting to note the differences of opinion.
Chris, I don’t think it’s merely a religious issue –it’s a property right issue too. Property owners have the right to use and enjoy their property, so long as it doesn’t violate the law. And those laws are supposed to apply to everyone equally.
Stormy, are you proposing that we should give up the freedom of speech in order to preserve the freedom of worship?
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