Earlier this week, Julian Sanchez penned a piece titled “The Politics of Ressentiment” to explain the Sarah Palin and Tea Party phenomena. It challenges Conor Friedersdorf‘s notion that Palin’s “exaggerated victimhood” as part of a phenomenon he himself dubbed “the politics of schadenfreude — the strategy of deliberately drawing political support from the perception that you’re being treated unfairly.” As you might guess, Sanchez says, “The word he wants is ressentiment.”
Ressentiment is a sense of resentment and hostility directed at that which one identifies as the cause of one’s frustration, an assignation of blame for one’s frustration. The sense of weakness or inferiority and perhaps jealousy in the face of the “cause” generates a rejecting/justifying value system, or morality, which attacks or denies the perceived source of one’s frustration. The ego creates an enemy in order to insulate itself from culpability.
What we saw in ’04 was fury at the realization that ascendancy to political power had not (post-9/11 Lee Greenwood renaissance notwithstanding) brought parallel cultural power. The secret shame of the conservative base is that they’ve internalized the enemy’s secular cosmopolitan value set and status hierarchy—hence this obsession with the idea that somewhere, someone who went to Harvard might be snickering at them.
The pretext for converting this status grievance into a political one is the line that the real issue is the myopic policy bred by all this condescension and arrogance—but the policy problems often feel distinctly secondary. Check out the RNC’s new ad on health reform, taking up the Tea Party slogan “Listen to Me!” There’s almost nothing on the substantive objections to the bill; it’s fundamentally about people’s sense of powerlessness in a debate that seems driven by wonks.
To see how the difference between ressentiment and simple schadenfreude matters, consider Palin one more time. If the goal is just to antagonize liberals, making her the Republican standard-bearer seems tactically bizarre, since ideally you want someone who isn’t so repugnant to independents as to be unelectable. If the animating force is ressentiment, the leader has to be a loser to really deserve the role. Which is to say, expect the craziness to get worse before it gets better.
Alex Massie and Will Wilsonson heartily endorse this analysis. Yet, while I have much more in common with the three of them than I do with Palin and the Tea Partiers, I think this too clever by more than half.
Palin’s supporters don’t think she’s a loser, they think she’s a salt of the earth Real American who fought her way to the top, took on the vested interests, and won. This passage from her acceptance speech at the convention is her image in their eyes:
My Mom and Dad both worked at the elementary school in our small town. And among the many things I owe them is one simple lesson: that this is America, and every woman can walk through every door of opportunity. My parents are here tonight, and I am so proud to be the daughter of Chuck and Sally Heath.
Long ago, a young farmer and habber-dasher from Missouri followed an unlikely path to the vice presidency. A writer observed: “We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty, sincerity, and dignity.” I know just the kind of people that writer had in mind when he praised Harry Truman.
I grew up with those people. They are the ones who do some of the hardest work in America … who grow our food, run our factories, and fight our wars. They love their country, in good times and bad, and they’re always proud of America. I had the privilege of living most of my life in a small town.
I was just your average hockey mom, and signed up for the PTA because I wanted to make my kids’ public education better. When I ran for city council, I didn’t need focus groups and voter profiles because I knew those voters, and knew their families, too. Before I became governor of the great state of Alaska, I was mayor of my hometown.
And since our opponents in this presidential election seem to look down on that experience, let me explain to them what the job involves. I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a “community organizer,” except that you have actual responsibilities. I might add that in small towns, we don’t quite know what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on working people when they are listening, and then talks about how bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those people aren’t listening. We tend to prefer candidates who don’t talk about us one way in Scranton and another way in San Francisco.
As for my running mate, you can be certain that wherever he goes, and whoever is listening, John McCain is the same man. I’m not a member of the permanent political establishment. And I’ve learned quickly, these past few days, that if you’re not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone.
But here’s a little news flash for all those reporters and commentators: I’m not going to Washington to seek their good opinion – I’m going to Washington to serve the people of this country. Americans expect us to go to Washington for the right reasons, and not just to mingle with the right people.
Now, there’s a good dose of hostility in that last part. But it’s out of resentment, not ressentiment. Palin’s supporters don’t secretly wish they could be like the Washington elites, much less feel inferior to them. Most genuinely feel that people like Sarah Palin, whose kid went off to join the Army and fight in Iraq, are Real America while the liberal elites who protest the war are worthy of contempt.
And the Tea Party types don’t feel inferior to the policy wonks. They feel they’re part of a Silent Majority that is being asked to give up The Best Health Care in The World, By God so that Obama and his ACORN friends can implement their Socialist schemes.
There’s some truth, one imagines, to the ressentiment charge. It’s quite plausible these people have some envy and sense of inferiority toward people who went off and got Ivy League diplomas and moved into positions of power and authority over them while they themselves have had little success. And David Frum is surely right that the constant complaining from conservatives (including multi-millionaire talk show hosts with fancy degrees) about “elites” dominating the “culture” is borne out of some sense of inferiority, or at least powerlessness.
But Julian seems to have set off a wave of ressentiment creep, where everything conservatives do is explained in that frame.
Erik Kain blames it for the “war on Christmas” trope, wherein American Christians are offended at attempts to downplay the role of Christ in our holiday celebrations.
[N]aturally, because there are some bad apples on the secular side, it becomes very easy for culture warriors on the right to demonstrate and justify this cultural victimization. Bill O’Reilly can say “Why do they hate baby Jesus?” without batting an eye and people eat it up because there is this sense that this one definition of America is being subverted and marginalized whether or not that is actually the case. The important thing is that people perceive this to be this way, and it fits in with the wider political/cultural narrative that conservatives have adopted.
But this isn’t ressentiment. Christians aren’t opposed to Kwanzaa and Ramadan being elevated to prominence while the religious aspects of Christmas are played down because they secretly envy made-up African heritage festivals or because they subconsciously think Islam is really the superior religion. Rather, they and everybody they know believes in Jesus and are outraged that the culture is being radically changed before their eyes and for reasons they can’t understand. Most Americans had never heard of Kwanzaa and Ramadan twenty years ago but now they have to be given equal billing in the public square. And note that there’s hardly any fuss about the odes to Hanukkah, which has been part of our holiday culture so long that it’s just part of our shared heritage.
At the core of the argument, really, is the idea that the people who are advocating change are doing so with wonkish analysis and pie charts whereas those fighting to preserve the status quo are simply bitter reactionaries. Not only is that oversold — there’s plenty of invective coming from the change advocates — but it’s a natural component of the human condition. People often don’t have strong intellectual arguments in support of keeping things the way they’ve always known them. They just have an instinctive sense that it’s the way things ought to be.
It’s Kain with a “K” James. Good analysis, by the way….
Spelling corrected! – jhj
I believe many of us support keeping things staying the way they are based upon observation of what certain changes have wrought. The idea that some rely on instinct is a simplification. Not being able to articulate why could be the problem.
Through my school years it seemed every couple of years the schools would try a new way of teaching this or testing that. The results were mixed but the continuous experimentation jaded us. As adults we have observed changes that either failed or were accompanied by those pesky unintended consequences.
I don’t understand why conservative populism is dissected like some sort of mental condition by those opposed to it. It’s a rational rejection of the current political path and a desire for controlled spending and more conservative values. Those who drill into the brains of common citizens looking for a mental illness driving their discontent are on the wrong track.
>>I don’t understand why conservative populism is dissected like some sort of mental condition by those opposed to it.<<
Because it is routinely expressed through an endless series of ludicrous, outrageous statements. Death panels. ACORN stealing elections. Global warming being a socialist plot. Terrorists escaping from a SuperMax and wrecking havoc on NW Illinois. Birth certificates. And on and on and on.
"Conservative populism" as an instinctive resistance to risky change or social experiments imposed by outside elites is quite reasonable.
The lunatic braying of the Beck/Palin crowd is just that… lunatic. Which is why there is such a tendency to seek out the mental illness causing it.
“People often don’t have strong intellectual arguments in support of keeping things the way they’ve always known them. They just have an instinctive sense that it’s the way things ought to be.”
No doubt. On the other hand, having a total allergy to factually based discussions of the way things actually are seems to go hand in hand with this attitude. In other words, it is a condition where fanatically-held demonstrably wrong beliefs are sufficient to prevent discussion of the merits of proposals, and one where simply having an open mind is seen as evidence that one is a traitor and not a real American.
I think that this is the crux of the arguement, rather than any sort of “envy” or “inferiority complex”.
It is an unconscious sense of self-betrayal and an outward reactionism to prove that betrayal wrong. Can’t build the walls up high enough to keep the enemy out when the enemy is the self.
(Enter H.I. plug here.)
It’s the sort of thing that the far left has engaged in for years. There’s just not as many of them. And I don’t like the phrase “conservative base”. But it really depends on what we agree the definition of “conservative” is. I think that “populist right” is more like it. There just happens to be a lot of sympathy it seems for that camp, rather than out and out support (of folks like Palin).
“I don’t understand why conservative populism is dissected like some sort of mental condition by those opposed to it. It’s a rational rejection of the current political path and a desire for controlled spending and more conservative values. Those who drill into the brains of common citizens looking for a mental illness driving their discontent are on the wrong track.”
What we saw in 8 years under Bush makes my hair curl. What we saw was the glorification of ideology. It was tax cuts and stay the course. It was neoconism, militarism, corporate fascism, laissez-faire, and religionism. Now, you can listen to any republican with “conservative values” and this is what you get. And it is not only that. You can believe in tax cuts, cuts in spending, and the constitution, but it is more than that. You still have to fix problems, like globalization. And that means investing in your country, in your people, and in the future. All we saw was 8 years of our jobs going overseas, our money going to Iraq, and the neglect of our country. I can easily dissect Bush. He was a Social Conservative that ran on ideology. Deficits did not matter with him. And at the olympics he had the audacity to say “America, has no problems.
So I have to thank Bush for all this ignorance and arrogance and the internet with all its blogs which has taught me a lot of how much republicans and Washington is out of touch.
Bernarnd, that’s a straw man on what the concern is with the Gitmo transfer. The Congressman from the district has specifically said that he’s never had any concern about an escape, but he was told by some guy named Phil Carter that the transfer would raise additional security concerns in NW Illinois. And during the process of meeting with Carter to identify those issues and how to address them Carter resigned and the Congressman has been getting the run around ever since.
Ironically, the day of the prison announcement, a local judge ruled that a industrial animal confinement operation, what will be the largest in the state, can go forward because the government did not have the money, time or inclination to conduct the subsurface testing that would determine whether mountains of sh#t are going to flow into the groundwater.
It would be nice if people advocating the superior wisdom of government would do more to demonstrate that the government is acting wisely.
There’s already a word for this – “Scapegoating”. It sounds and writes much more easier than “ressentiment”, which sounds like an over-the-counter pill.
I think Julian is trying to hard.
A better explanation for tea party anger is the The Harvard-Goldman Filter
If this were even remotely what the recent protests were about, they wouldn’t be so wildly disproportionate to the modest and incremental changes actually being proposed by those currently in power.. Moreover, the instigators of these protests wouldn’t have to invent things that the government was going to do to them: take their guns away, force Rush Limbaugh off the air, etc.
Watch the Glenn Beck show–Beck is unquestionably the epicenter of the current discontent–for about a week, and then try to argue that the current anger has any rational basis in proposed changes that will materially affect the lives of the angry ones.
As for ressentiment–its usage in the context of politics originates with Nietzsche– “I don’t get no respect” isn’t the whole story but it’s an important part of it.
The tea party folks have plenty to be angry about. No need to invoke college freshmen dorm BS session level psych 101 explanations.
At the moment it is pretty clear that competence is not as valuable as the right political connections. The return on investment for having good lobbyists often exceeds the return on doing something constructive with money.
I am not a populist by any stretch. But watching bush and then obama hose down failing companies with taxpayers dollars has been aggravating.
Both the spectacle of the vast amounts of money being spent and the realization that the politicians are taking actions that are likely to cause even bigger failures in the future.
Chauffered America, Strip Mall America
Yeah, I thought that with the internalization part, Julian’s analysis had gone awry. I did think, though, that this part was right on:
Attention must be paid!–and it’s not, dammit.
This is a good analysis. Great job. I would like to posit something else which may really get me roasted here. A few years ago I read a line about Islamic resentment which stated their sense was that they had been left behind by the modern world. Is this the same? Notice the sign held by the woman in your photo, “…Spread my work ethic.” A sense that people have played by rules which no longer apply, that they have been “played” by somebody somewhere. Perhaps the popularity of the “Left Behind” series isn’t so much about religion as it is about feelng virtually discarded. Plus,I think there is an underlying racism, the inclusion of “others” in the decision-making process whom these folks believe have no place in the process.
Bernard, For each example of right wing populist hyperbole you give there is an equal an opposite example from the left. No ideology has a monopoly on outrageous statements. Bush stole the election, global warming will kill us all, tea baggers are the real terrorists, Bush avoided combat during the war, this is the way it works and has for some time. Marginalizing the right by assigning a mental illness is a hollow analysis.
The continuous linking of all conservative positions to Beckrushpalin is a similar attempt to marginalize reasonable policy choices. In my case I don’t watch or listen to them and think Palin is the wrong choice to lead the party. Yet if I support a tax cut all of the sudden I’m a ditto head or whatever they call ’em. Some of us see through that tactic quite clearly while others play along.
Gerry W., Bush is to blame for ignorance on the internet? For gosh sakes man get a grip. I have my complaints with Bush but blaming him for everything is growing old.
Just so there is no misunderstanding. I blame Bush for his ignorance and arrogance, as well as other things. I also thank those on blogs on the internet to see me through the hypocrisy of the republicans. Republicans believe in ideology and not fixing the problems at hand.
You have said “I don’t understand why conservative populism is dissected like some sort of mental condition.”
Because all we see is a bunch of nuts. It was neoconism, corporate fascism, militarism, laissez-faire, and religionism. We saw the right wing and ideology to its fullest under Bush and the whole republican party. Now, we cannot continue with ignoring our problems or we can fix them. You had 8 years of tax cuts and the country is a mess, and add to that foreign policy. I have seen jobs leave this country, while all this time Bush kept saying “free trade is good.” So far, I see not one republican that understands the situation. They are all like robots. Tax cuts and cut spending is all you hear.
The tax cut game has been played for 8 years as well as the fed keeping interest rates low. It was the roaring 20″s. The trickle down does not effect the bottom 20% to 30% of the population. We have jobs going overseas and a less educated population at that level. This is the area that needs attending. It is called management and not ideology.
A culture war is under way between traditional American virtues which foster independence, as exhibited by Sarah Palin and the American Tea Party movement, and the anxietude promoted by our elite ruling classes.
Our lords and masters, of both political parties, want Americans to become dependent on them and the government rather than taking charge of their own lives and making their own decisions. Independent people can often resent another persons’ usurpation’s and tyranny but they don’t necessarily feel inferior or want to take their ruler’s place.
America has had four traditional institutions which insulated the citizen from accepting a dependency on state authority: local government, civic associations, religion and family.
Alexis de Tocqueville in his book, “Democracy in America” said that these social institutions were very different from Europe. They were what defined the US citizen and kept him from acting like a European peasant, client or subject. Each of these institutions gave the individual control over a facet of their own lives which was protected from governmental intrusion.
Local Government and civic associations placed the people in charge of their neighborhoods. They accomplished things for themselves, rather than looking for a helping hand.
Religion and family placed a person in control of their private lives and morality. They did not look to others to solve their problems. They accepted responsibility for the results of their beliefs and actions. They did not perceive themselves as victims.
Governments have, since the 1860s, been encroaching on each of these social institutions by giving handouts with strings attached and passing rules which tie people down. The ruling elites seek to deny the citizen of his sovereignty and to diminish an individuals’ control over his life.
Our ruling classes vastly resent any person who seeks to diminish their authority. Thus, they are the one’s exhibiting resentiment. The chattering classes often project their behavior onto their enemies.
Paul Rahe speaks of this process in his book, “Soft Despotism, Democracy’s Drift.” An interview of Mr. Rahe can be seen at:
I saw the one sided argument against socialism on National Review, and you can here these arguments with Limbaugh, Hannity, and Fox news. However, they give no answers in running the country. The tea party movement gives no answers. And Sarah Palin…..well, she should go back to hunting.
I have seen no attacks on religion and family values. We have separation of church and state and there are plenty of churches and religions in this country.
I see local governments attacked as globalization is taking our jobs. And all I have heard is that “free trade is good” as we lost our jobs. Now, government could do something about it. Or it can just ignore what is going on. People cannot solve the globalization issue by themselves. It will take Washington to enact the proper tools to deal with it. Communities cannot compete with 2 to 3 billion cheap laborers.
Geez, I think it’s worse than that. I mean, I’d peg the beginning of the slide into the abyss at 1789.
Gerry, we all seem to be communicating a bit now but why drag Limbaugh, Hannity, and Fox back in? Louis makes very valid points based upon a rational analysis. You marginalizing his points by such associations. It’s exactly what I point out.
Those nuts you see on TV are what the TV people want you to see. The colorful character get the screen time. The thinkers don’t scramble in front of the cameras knowing quite well a five second clip cannot communicate ideas properly. I refuse to give TV interviews with my local stations for that very reason (school board and city council meetings, not tea party related).
As for free trade just look at what economist say. It is clearly good for mankind and Americans.
It’s the same message. From Limbaugh to Palin to Palenty. You name it-the same message and nothing new. And no answers.
Well, I don’t know what economists you are listening to. I see our jobs go overseas. And again, they have no answers to it. What we heard is that we are going to be an information society, and we don’t need manufacturing jobs. Well, I think somebody is cracked in the head.
Now if there are thinkers out there, let me know. So far it has been the same, same o same o.
Garry W said:
“I saw the one sided argument against socialism on National Review”
Socialism has failed in every place where it has been tried. Traditional American virtues made us the richest country in the world.
“However, they give no answers in running the country. The tea party movement gives no answers. ”
You weren’t paying attention. This is about citizen sovereignty vs peonage. Obama wants to duplicate the social democracy of Europe in America. Europe has a negative job growth when you take out the government jobs.
“I have seen no attacks on religion and family values. We have separation of church and state and there are plenty of churches and religions in this country.”
I suggest you look at the interviews. It is too complex an issue to explain here.
The article was talking about the difference in values between the ordinary Americans and our ruling classes, not about the elites political talking points.
The greater the government is and the more control it has over our lives, the weaker the people are. Americans used to be free. A free people need not resent anyone.
“People cannot solve the globalization issue by themselves. It will take Washington to enact the proper tools to deal with it.”
Your values are exposed as European values, not American ones. You are a dependent or client of the state. You assume that everyone must wear your chains.
“Communities cannot compete with 2 to 3 billion cheap laborers.”
Sure, they can, by being more efficient than the cheap laborers. The price of labor alone is not enough to defeat us; we must be very productive to offset it. We have to think smarter and act freer. We need to get the government out of the way of the people and let them perform.
“It’s the same message. From Limbaugh to Palin to Palenty. You name it-the same message and nothing new. And no answers.”
It’s an answer that you don’t understand, Gary — an answer you won’t even look at. Did you watch the videos? No way.
You are too bigoted to perceive the truth, so it has no answers for you. You are not open minded enough to understand the world.
“Well, I don’t know what economists you are listening to. I see our jobs go overseas. ”
If we workers are so ignorant and unproductive that foreigners can take away our jobs, then the foreigners deserve to have them. What drives away jobs are the Trade Unions; They price our workers out of the world market.
You understand no economics. Every location is different and has comparative advantages which favor certain activities.
You can grow bananas in Canada, but only in heated, lighted greenhouses. That is why it is cheaper to grow them in the tropics, even though we must transport them for thousands of miles.
Socialism tries to achieve uneconomic activities.
It substitutes politics for good sense. It favors the political classes who become our lords and masters. Those political classes resent it when their peons try to free themselves. The elites dismiss the virtues of the people; they impute false values on their enemies; they lie, demean and defame.
“And again, they have no answers to it.”
And again, these are answers you cannot see, because you have been brainwashed.
“Now if there are thinkers out there, let me know. So far it has been the same, same o same o.”
The Truth is always the same o, same o. The Truth is not cool or hip; it is hum drum and boring. It is hard working, smart thinking, diligence and effort. Truth is what works, not what your teachers indoctrinated you in.
The proof is in the pudding — the results. Socialism does not work. It kills people. You have no understanding of Americans, at all.
It appears, Gary, that you didn’t look at all the interviews of Paul Rahe. I only gave you the first segment of five interviews. Click on the header above to get at the others.
Socialism is only one tactic which is attacking American virtues. It’s hard to tell if the Democrats are Communists or Fascists. Their practices combine both. “Spreading the wealth around” and nationalizing industries such as Health Care are communist positions. Regulation and control, like the Cap and Tax, are Fascist behaviors.
See you can’t spell my name.
As far as the democrats are concerned, we know they go to more welfare spending “socialism.” And the guy is right.
Now can you explain the republican side?
Let me see on the republicans. What we saw for 8 years- Neoconism, corporate fascism, militarism, laissez-faire and religionism. And let me guess. It will be the constitution, tax cuts, and cut spending that you go by. And ignoring everything else.
Well, that is not good enough. Now tell me of some policies that will fix this country. The federal government still has to be engaged to fix problems.
Now, I want you to think in how to run the country with no more ideology. I call it management. And please do not confuse this with the old Soviet Union. This where republicans get stuck. It is ideology and laissez-faire and they will do no more. Now, we have watch for years the neglect of our infrastructure and on globalization in the taking of our jobs. And without jobs, you get no tax revenue and more welfare. So, how are we going to fix these problems?
“See you can’t spell my name.”
Don’t sweat the small stuff. You Aristocrats are soooo touchy. Get a life. Develop a tough skin. Develop some manners; you get back the cordiality that you give.
“As far as the democrats are concerned, we know they go to more welfare spending “socialism.” And the guy is right.
Now can you explain the republican side?”
Anyone can be corrupted by power. Everyone, especially the highly educated, presume to think that they can make decisions for other people. This is fine in parents, because we want children to be well behaved.
But, this is not desirable in free citizens, who we want to be sovereign and independent, if rambunctious. America is a constitutionally limited republic; it cannot be run by serfs. A soft despotism tends to lead to a hard one; Obama will be happy to supply us with the latter.
“Let me see on the republicans. What we saw for 8 years- Neoconism, corporate fascism, militarism, laissez-faire and religionism. ”
“And let me guess. It will be the constitution, tax cuts, and cut spending that you go by. And ignoring everything else.”
No. it is by putting the citizen back in control of our republic, rather than the elites. Those above items you mention are mere tactics to attain this.
We American Tea Party Patriots must fight our Republican elites as well as you leftist ones. According to the Battleground Poll, over 60% of Americans are either conservative or very conservative. Why shouldn’t we be in control of the country, rather than you Aristocrats?
“The federal government still has to be engaged to fix problems.”
How does the Federal government fix its abuse of power? The constitution clearly defines the limits of federal power. If you want to change that, then do it legally by amending the constitution. Don’t use judicial activism to ignore the constitution or to twist it into shreds. That leads to usurpation and tyranny.
“Now, I want you to think in how to run the country with no more ideology. ”
This is a choice of ideologies. I said this was a culture war between different set of ideas — ideologies. Your choice is between American individualism and European collectivism of various sorts which are too many to list here.
“I call it management. ”
I call it soft tyranny.
“And please do not confuse this with the old Soviet Union. ”
That was hard tyranny.
“This where republicans get stuck. It is ideology and laissez-faire and they will do no more. ”
There are forces at work which you ignore. Power does not solve problems; it hides them under the rug. Sometimes, it is better to do nothing than to do the wrong thing.
Grasping for ever more money and power from the citizenry will provoke to a backlash, such as is taking place now. Obama is engaged in a naked power grab, little different from George III’s. Nothing he is doing is remotely constitutional.
“Now, we have watch for years the neglect of our infrastructure and on globalization in the taking of our jobs. ”
The infrastructure is a local matter which needs to be fixed by the people who benefit from those services. Privatize the roads if you want to fix them. The government is too corrupt to do so.
Globalization or world trade increases our wealth. If our workers, or their trade unions, price themselves out of the world market, they deserve what they get. Using the government to cover up these facts leads to ever more economic disruption. It leads to protectionism which destroys world trade. That turns a recession into a Great Depression, like the Smoot- Hawley Act did..
“And without jobs, you get no tax revenue and more welfare. ”
Lowering taxes, when an economy is to the right of the Laffer curve, increases tax revenues because it increases the economy. Increasing taxes as we are doing now, diminishes the economy and its tax revenues. The Bush taxes in 1991, as well as the Kennedy tax cuts in the 1960s, prove that.
Welfare needs to be privatized. That way the citizens are not forced to pay for government handouts which corrupt people.
“So, how are we going to fix these problems?”
By doing what works to improve the economy and society, rather than doing what is good for our political elites. We can do this by developing alternatives to governmental handouts.
Same o, same o.
Laissez-faire at it’s best.
This is the same from all republicans or those who want to define their conservatism. I would like to call myself as a conservative also. Maybe progressive or both.
Maybe government cannot do the things I want it to do, but ignoring problems or being laissez-faire fails to do anything. And this is what I have noticed. It took some 60 years fro me to see this. It is a cycle. It is a cycle of trickle down with tax cuts that do not get down to the bottom 20% to 30% of the population. You can talk all you want about your conservatism but you do not solve problems. You can talk of God and country, but it does not solve problems.
I have no problem with tax cuts and cutting spending and individualism if done in the right way. However, we had 8 years of tax cuts and the country is a mess. I know, I know, Bush spent. But we also saw all the ideologies that came out of the right. But not one ideology, not one ism can run the country.
Bush 41 raised the tax to cut the Reagan deficits. Thus saving the Reagan legacy.
You say “There are forces at work which you ignore. Power does not solve problems; it hides them under the rug. Sometimes, it is better to do nothing than to do the wrong thing.”
And we saw 8 years of staying the course and doing nothing. And look where this country is at. We have so many problems piled up and nothing done in all these years. So it has taken its toll on the country and it will take a toll monetarily to fix all these problems.
The bottom 20% to 30% of the population are the ones that are less educated, are ones who are less mobile, are ones who are losing their jobs to globalization. And you have offered nothing to fix the matter. Now, you may say it is not the federal government responsibility, but we do have a chronic problem. And with that problem, you have more welfare and you have deteriorating cities and infrastructure. And whether you like it or not, you will have more welfare. It is more money for extension of unemployment benefits and bailouts for cities and states. Now, that is the reality. And states are doing anything to survive. And since they cannot compete with 2 to 3 billion cheap laborers, they look at anything they can do. And they look for cash for clunkers or casinos for every state. In any case, you are getting less revenue with the loss of jobs and you are paying more welfare. So it seems to me, as we are ALL are in it together, that we need to fix our country.
It is interesting that you say we priced ourselves out of the world market. So your answer as well as those on Wall Street or anyone else is that we have to lower our wages. Now, since China and other countries are winning the war on wages with a dollar an hour and no benefits, maybe you can come up with a wage for us in this country. Maybe a dollar an hour is appropriate for you. Now this is what we are up against. We have seen our jobs taken for some 30 years first by the Japanese and now by China and others. And they will take the rest we have, providing our jobs are not bolted down. Just relying on some conservative ideology or value does not work. Ireland, which is considered to be business friendly, has seen its Dell jobs go to Poland. So, tell me how an ideology works. You have to recognize globalization for what it is. It is cheap labor and there is no way in getting away from it. You can only better yourself, compete, and try to keep a middle class. We are no longer in a world by ourselves.
To solve the globalization issue, while not perfect, you need to do the following.
1. Invest in your country: That is becoming energy independent everything from drilling to nuclear to alternative energy. This will create energy independence and jobs. A new air traffic control system would help airlines to become more profitable as they take more direct routes. This saves fuel and they can buy more aircraft and that creates jobs. We have a hundred years of natural gas and that can be used for trucks (Boone Pickens).
2. Invest in your people: Okay, you will not like this. But you need an educated society to compete in the world. That is mandatory vocational training. You leave school, you will know a trade. In the past is was two choices. Going to college or going to the factory. Going to the factory will not make it anymore.
3. Invest in the future: That is government research grants to universities and businesses for future sciences. Right now, those that loss jobs, have no new jobs to go to. So this is why we need to keep investing for the future. And that means no more religious attacks on embryonic stem cell research. Other countries subsidize their science. South Korea is ahead of us in battery technology. China is investing in raw materials, they have high speed rail, and their growth of 8% with over 1 billion people means they will beat us.
To do all the above will take some 10 years or more to see the results.
4. If you want to cut spending, then have outside commissions to do it. Politicians won’t like it, but it will be the only way to cut spending. Also, make sure if a president wants to go to war, that he pays for it. Either a war tax or cut spending, and we will see how the American people will vote on this.
5. While tax cuts are desirable, we have seen 8 years of it. It is like crying wolf too many times. The same with the fed. They have kept interest rates down too low for too long. There is no doubt we are trapped in a corner. The traditional ways of doing things are becoming less effective. Maybe it is too much government, maybe we have more globalization, maybe we have to lose the middle class, maybe Washington is not as effective, maybe the fed is less effective, maybe we are trying to do to much in the world, maybe it was years of ignorance, arrogance, and failed ideologies. So somebody better wake up. We cannot continue with this ignorance and arrogance.
“Same o, same o. Laissez-faire at it’s best.”
What’s wrong with leaving citizens in peace? What’s wrong with leaving OUR money in OUR wallets?
Don’t blame our problems on freedom or Laissez-faire practices. There has been no freedom in the economy since 1913. America has been an increasingly Socialist or Fascist country since then.
Nor are Republicans necessarily free marketers. President Bush is a Big Government Republican. He is a conservative man, but as a politician, he was much like Nixon. I disapproved of his Keynesian stimulus packages. He only got my vote, because otherwise I would have to vote for a Socialist. Obama will prove much worse than Bush.
Obama’s Marxist economics are doing a fine job of sabotaging the economy.
“This is the same from all republicans or those who want to define their conservatism. I would like to call myself as a conservative also. Maybe progressive or both.”
All that says is that you cannot define yourself. If you can’t define yourself then you don’t know who you are and what you stand for.
So, let me help you out. I’ll tell you what your values are. You are an elitist who is all about power. Your talking points are designed to gain you influence. If those talking points become inconvenient, you will drop them in a heart beat. This makes you fickle and opportunistic. This makes you a propagandist. You have no principles, just expediency.
Are we clear on this, so far?
That is very different from the traditional American virtues of freedom, self discipline and responsibility. It is different from neighbor helping neighbor or citizen sovereignty.
“Maybe government cannot do the things I want it to do, but ignoring problems or being laissez-faire fails to do anything.”
Don’t you understand that there are intelligent people in this country who don’t work for the government? They are in commerce, health care, technology, science, management and private law. They understand their business far better than you do.
Furthermore, the markets act as regulators on abuses. The way to fix things it to let those people who know what they are doing to solve problems.
Almost all our problems in the economy are due to ignorant government intervention. Is that laissez-faire? Only if the government adopts a hands off policy and America is a long way from that.
Even a Republican administration would be afraid of laissez-faire. We do not have it here in America. It is quite ignorant, or bigoted, of you to pretend that we do.
“It is a cycle of trickle down with tax cuts that do not get down to the bottom 20% to 30% of the population. ”
That is so 1960s class warfare. Apparently you have never heard of the Laffer curve, so you cannot talk intelligently about this.
“You can talk all you want about your conservatism but you do not solve problems.”
All we need do is get you socialists out of the way.
“I have no problem with tax cuts and cutting spending and individualism if done in the right way. However, we had 8 years of tax cuts and the country is a mess. ”
The tax cuts got us out of the recession of 2000, but the Federal Reserve Bank inflated the money supply setting us up for the next downturn in 2007. 9/11 and the Global war on Terror was costly. Paying off the Democrats to keep them from sabotaging the war effort was expensive. Appeasing the Democrats didn’t work; they shot us in the back.
The Democrats created this banking mess by passing and expanding CRA, Fanny Mae and Freddy Mac. They prevented McCain and Bush from fixing these problems.
I’m not defending Bush, here: he is a big government Republican. Nothing he did was laissez-faire. He tried to fix economic problems by applying false Keynesian policies. That cannot work. It has never worked.
“Bush 41 raised the tax to cut the Reagan deficits. Thus saving the Reagan legacy.”
I hate to remind you that Congress controls the purse strings. The Democrats made promises to Reagan to cut spending to compensate for those tax cuts. The Democrats reneged on their promises and then, blamed Reagan for the deficits which they caused. This is typical Leftist behavior.
“And we saw 8 years of staying the course and doing nothing. ”
Of course, preventing another 9/11 is worth nothing. Nor is solving a United Nations problem which had been dragging on for 12 years. But, I won’t bother you with inconvenient facts which you will not listen to.
“The bottom 20% to 30% of the population are the ones that are less educated, are ones who are less mobile, are ones who are losing their jobs to globalization. ”
No. The poor are losing their jobs to the illegal aliens which the Democrats allow into this country. But, you don’t care about that.
It is the middle income workers, mostly unionized, who are losing out to globalization. Business regulations and high taxes create a poor economy which cannot compete with the rest of the world. Who’s regulations and taxes are those? The Democrats, of course.
“And you have offered nothing to fix the matter.”
Of course, I have. You just will not look at my solutions. You reject them out of hand.
The only solutions, you elitists have, are to give yourself money and power while wrecking the economy and society.
“Now, you may say it is not the federal government responsibility, but we do have a chronic problem. ”
The Federal Government’s usurpations in the economy and society are the chronic problem.
“And with that problem, you have more welfare and you have deteriorating cities and infrastructure.”
The deteriorating cities and infrastructure are all in the places controlled by Democrats. Why would we American Tea Party Patriots want to fix the problems which you bring upon yourselves? Let the cities die. Their workers and industries will move to the Red States.
The only people who will get hurt will be those who work for the government. They will be fired and be forced to work for a living.
“And whether you like it or not, you will have more welfare. It is more money for extension of unemployment benefits and bailouts for cities and states. ”
Unemployment benefits and bailouts for cities and states are failed socialist programs. Throwing more money at them feeds the elitist. It does not solve the problems.
” And states are doing anything to survive. ”
Socialism, Socialism, Socialism. Don’t you know anything else? The Leftist in charge of the States overspent during the good times. Now that bad times are here, then those programs must be ended and government workers laid off. A bail out prevents that.
” So it seems to me, as we are ALL are in it together, that we need to fix our country.”
You elitists have tried your methods. They have failed as they always do. It is time for you to get out of the way. We American Tea Party Patriots know what we are doing; we’ll fix things. The only economies in the country which are working now are in the Red States. Let the Blue States die.
“It is interesting that you say we priced ourselves out of the world market. So your answer as well as those on Wall Street or anyone else is that we have to lower our wages. ”
Who said that? Not me. I said the opposite.
I said that we would have to increase our efficiency and productivity to compete. This means getting the government out of the way of commerce.
You have not a clue of how the economy works. The only history you know is Socialist history. This means that you are more than ignorant; you are counter productive
The third world has never been able to compete with Capitalism. Low wage rates are not enough. The workers in the third world are very unproductive: that is why their wages are low; their time isn’t worth much.
” Ireland, which is considered to be business friendly, has seen its Dell jobs go to Poland. ”
And now Dell is closing the plants in Poland. Why? It is because the European Union has piled on so many regulations and taxes that it is not worth Dell’s effort.
” We are no longer in a world by ourselves.”
We never were in a world by ourselves. We have aways had competition. We just didn’t have the Democrat’s sabotage to deal with. Once onerous taxes and regulations no longer distort the economy, then competing with other countries will be no problem.
“To solve the globalization issue, while not perfect, you need to do the following.
1. Invest in your country: That is becoming energy independent everything from drilling to nuclear to alternative energy. ”
Oddly enough, we agree. But, who is preventing us from becoming energy independent? It is the Democrats who are preventing drilling for oil and natural gas. It is they who prevented nuclear power plants and refineries from being built in America since the 1960s.
Alternative energy plans work no better, now, than they did for President Carter. If we allow the price for oil to rise then people will go out and find it. That is what they did after OPEC hit us with price increases in the 70s. By the 80’s, we had an oil glut.
“A new air traffic control system would help airlines to become more profitable as they take more direct routes. ”
The government controls the airports and the air traffic control system, not businesses. It is the government’s incompetence which you decry. As long as the government is in charge, then those problems will never be fixed.
” We have a hundred years of natural gas and that can be used for trucks (Boone Pickens).”
The government would not allow us to drill for oil and gas or to build pipelines to transport it from Texas to the NorthEast.
There is a two hundred year supply of natural gas in Shale Gas fields which run from Illinois to New York State. Obama’s interference in the economy precludes businesses from drilling for this resource.
The government has shut down any new projects because the future is too uncertain. We don’t know what industries will be nationalized next.
2. Invest in your people: Okay, you will not like this. But you need an educated society to compete in the world.
Oddly enough, we agree on that.
The problem is that the government has proven itself incompetent to educated our citizens. Therefore, the government needs to get out of this area.
Teacher Unions need to end; they are the major restraint on education.
I suggest “Tuition Tax credits” where the parents choose what schools their children go to. The tax credits would be sold by the parents to businesses needing a tax deferment.
Of course, you would be opposed to parents being in charge of their children’s education. Typical leftist.
‘That is mandatory vocational training. You leave school, you will know a trade. In the past is was two choices. Going to college or going to the factory. Going to the factory will not make it anymore.”
Jesus, what a NEA boondoggle; it assumes that the educators or the teacher unions know what businesses need. That merely adds more regulation and control which would to paid for by the taxpayer.
I have a simpler solution: get the government out of education. If businesses need educated workers, let them set up the schools. Let them pay for it.
“3. Invest in the future: That is government research grants to universities and businesses for future sciences. ”
President Carter tried this in the early 1970s; it didn’t work. Nothing good came out of it. It became a make work project for the over educated and the mal-educated who had degrees.
“Right now, those that loss jobs, have no new jobs to go to. ”
It is the economy which should create the jobs, not the government. Businesses will invest in technology if they are allowed to make a profit from it.
The projects you cite are a repeat of FDR’s and Carter’s failed programs. Those plans don’t work in Europe, either. If you take out the government jobs, Europe has had a negative job growth since the seventies.
” And that means no more religious attacks on embryonic stem cell research. ”
Governor Schwarzenegger wasted 5 billion of California’s precious dollars in Embryonic stem cell research and got nothing out of it. There has never been a successful embryonic therapy because it causes cancer.
The two most likely sources for therapies are Placental and Adult stem cell research. These have been over two hundred therapies with more to come.
The billions that you waste on unproductive areas denies it to viable research. Embryonic stem cell research is a government make works project.
“Other countries subsidize their science. ”
Subsidized science is bad science. It is un-American and anti-capitalistic. It is socialism. It produces no benefits.
“4. If you want to cut spending, then have outside commissions to do it. Politicians won’t like it, but it will be the only way to cut spending. ”
Let me get this straight; you are proposing that unelected people take control of our economy and society? Right? How is this different from Fascist or Communist rulers? Who are these nascent Stalin’s and Hitlers? Why, It’s you!
We American Tea Party Patriots have a cheaper and easier solution: throw the bums out. Throw the politicians of both parties out of office. Cut the regulations, slash the bureaucracy, trim the laws and chastise the judiciary for corrupting the constitution.
“Also, make sure if a president wants to go to war, that he pays for it. Either a war tax or cut spending, and we will see how the American people will vote on this.”
I say to cut the spending and taxes now. Curb the power of congress and the president, now. If we need to go to war, then it must be debated and approved by the citizens. Demand a three quarters majority vote for any war bills.
“5. While tax cuts are desirable, we have seen 8 years of it. ”
Next year, we will be having the largest tax increase in American history, because the Bush’s tax cuts will be allowed to end.
If the economy weren’t already bad, it would throw us in the toilet. Next year, we will be experiencing a very bad economy and high price inflation just like Jimmy Carter caused. Who will you blame this situation on, then? Of course, President Bush.
“The same with the fed. They have kept interest rates down too low for too long. There is no doubt we are trapped in a corner. ”
We are not trapped; being trapped sounds like it was an accident. The Democrats planned and caused this. They will use the crisis they caused to increase governmental controls.
“The traditional ways of doing things are becoming less effective. ”
You mean traditional ways like Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac? Those were only good for forcing banks into giving loans to people who could not afford them. Or is it traditional ways like the SEC who thought Bernie Madoff was a legitimate business man.
No, you don’t mean those ways.
What you want to end is personal freedom and responsibility. Those ways seem rather effective to me. Too bad that we don’t have much of those in this country.
“Maybe it is too much government, maybe we have more globalization, maybe we have to lose the middle class, maybe Washington is not as effective, maybe the fed is less effective, maybe we are trying to do to much in the world, maybe it was years of ignorance, arrogance, and failed ideologies. So somebody better wake up. We cannot continue with this ignorance and arrogance.”
You do have a socialist solution for every problem, don’t you? When all your solutions fail, you try, try again.The only thing you cannot stand is freedom.
It would be hard to answer your blog. You assume so many misinterpretations. No matter what I say, you think it is meddling with the private economy. Capitalism needs help at times. Capitalism can be brutal. It leaves gaps. We lost many jobs that went overseas. Of course, you complain about unions, but let us go further. What widgets can be made in this country, that cannot be made in China or some other country? Like I have said before, whatever is not bolted down can leave the country. If unions are the problem, then let us look at McDonalds. They have been experimenting with the drive thru that will be handled by someone in India. That’s right. Order a hamburger and you talk to someone in India. And this is our minimum wage you are talking about. Or how about China. They have moved some jobs to other Asian countries for cheaper labor. The net effect is that the middle class, the working class has to suffer.
Now you have said that you did not say that you support lower wages. But yet, it is these policies that support cheap labor.
Now you say globalization increases our wealth. And that is not true. I have not seen it. Sure, it is good on Wall Street. But I have seen our jobs go. And if you can find another job, then it is with less pay. You can look at Wal Mart too. Yeah, they make you cheer and a big rah rah at their conventions. But they treat their employees like crap. Even had a law suit of several million dollars. But they know how to play the economics. They know it is cheap products and people will buy. And the worker has nothing to go on.
We also know that countries subsidize their industry. They will do anything that will give them an edge. You call it socialism. In fact, you do not recognize our problems. You just think that the private economy will solve our problems. That private economy, will do whatever it takes to make money. And with globalization, people lose.
It is interesting that you want to sit with your ideology of the Laffer curve and ignore everything else. It is interesting that your very actions or inactions create more welfare and you will not get tax revenue from this unemployed class.
None of anything I have said is socialist. You are so caught up with your ideology. I have only talked of fixing our problems. You have said nothing in fixing our problems (outside of oil drilling.) It is the same o, same o of letting the private sector do whatever it wants. Just stand back, stay the course and we have no problems, according to you.
The bottom 20% to 30% of the population never sees the benefit of this country as democrats do the wrong thing and the republicans just drop that group with their failed non trickle down policies.
On the embryonic stem cell issue, show your ignorance. It takes many years of science to realize any of the benefits. Even if their are failures, there is something to be gained. You cannot measure something in months that takes 10 to 20 years to do. And that goes for everything else that I have said to fix our country. And why did California and other states vote for the embryonic issue? Because Bush used religion to stop it.
We had commissions for the base closings and it worked. Since both democrats and republicans cannot cut spending, I find this a logical way of cutting spending.
All I can say, is that you have proven that republicans are so far off the mark, that they are ignorant and arrogant. You don’t want to know anything else. It is God and country and stay the course. We saw this episode repeated too many times. Same o, same o.
As I explained earlier, we are on different sides of a culture war. This is fundamental. It is not about talking points or issues.
We American Tea Party Patriots are not interested in “staying the course.” We are revolutionaries, no less than Samuel Adams was. Obama and you elitists are acting like George III and must be stopped.
You European intellectual elites has been in power since the 1920s or, at least, been able to prevent rolling back your social and economic programs when the Republicans were in office. You elitists have great power, but end times are coming for your game plan.
America is a Center Right country. 60% of Americans, according to the Battleground poll, considers themselves to be conservative or very conservative. But, there are reasons for why they do not vote Republican.
Partly, it is because the Republican Party has not done a good job of explaining Conservative virtues or running conservative candidates. Too often, once in office, the Republicans succumb to corruption.
The main reason, though, is that the Left have gamed the political system; they have created institutions which balkanize the conservative voters.
The most conservative of citizens, the elderly, are the captives of the Social Security system. The Democrats have done a good job of demonizing the Republicans. The elite’s propaganda has convinced many of the elderly that the Republicans would destroy Social Security and leave them without a dime. But if Social Security is not fixed, then it will fail catastrophically and take the economy with it.
Obama is pushing America toward becoming a Social Democracy like the European Union and this is provoking a reaction. His abuse of power and his unconstitutional behavior is forcing many people in both parties to react. It is not enough for the Democrats be thrown out of power for twenty-five years; You European Intellectual elites must be destroyed as a political institution. Hence, we Conservatives must rediscover who we are and what our virtues are. We need to turn the country on its head.
“No matter what I say, you think it is meddling with the private economy. Capitalism needs help at times. Capitalism can be brutal. It leaves gaps. ”
Capitalism is self correcting, if the government does not interfere. It has in it creative destruction where inefficient companies are forced out of business. This frees up the resources and labor to go to companies which are serving their customers needs.
Every time the government interferes in a crisis, it prevents the necessary correction. It creates economic stagnation such as happened in Pre-Thatcher England. The Labor government was driving the productive people out of the country and England got ever poorer. This is what you want to occur here in America as Obama pushes us toward a Social democracy.
“What widgets can be made in this country, that cannot be made in China or some other country? ”
If America cannot compete in the world, then protecting us from reality will not help. You assume that US workers are too incompetent to compete. I disagree. All we need do is take off the shackles which you elitist have placed on them.
Any interference in the economy by a government, automatically, means inefficiency. Protectionism, of any sort, destroys markets and creates unemployment.
“If unions are the problem, then let us look at McDonalds. They have been experimenting with the drive thru that will be handled by someone in India. And this is our minimum wage you are talking about. ”
Neither of us knows if that plan will work. McDonalds is likely responding to Minimum Wage laws.
Minimum wage laws are counter productive for two reasons.
First, they prevent low skilled labor, teenagers and the poor who would work at McDonald’s, from gaining legal employment. Their skills are not high enough to hire them at the minimum wage, so they become unemployable.
This cuts them off from the employment experience which would allow them to get a better job. This is why the Blue States have the worst performing economies and the highest structural unemployment.
In Europe, young adults are forced to remain in school into their late twenties, because the government has destroyed job creation. You want to duplicate that experience.
Second, the Trade Unions use the Minimum Wage laws as a floor for their wage rates. They automatically demand a multiple of the Minimum wage or they strike. This artificially fosters price inflation.
“Or how about China. They have moved some jobs to other Asian countries for cheaper labor. The net effect is that the middle class, the working class has to suffer.”
You are ignorant of economics. This is Say’s law, in action.
What Say’s law means is “supply creates demand.” In the real world, any natural resource, product or, even, the labor of workers has a price at which it can be sold or employed.
If the government artificially jacks up the price, or institutes onerous regulations, taxes and controls which make employing these resources uneconomic, then you will experience unemployment. The only reason for long term unemployment of any resource, be it labor or otherwise, is government interference in markets.
“Now you have said that you did not say that you support lower wages. But yet, it is these policies that support cheap labor.”
You are not listening to me. I want workers to receive what their skills, ability and efforts are worth. The US government is pricing these workers out of the market. The companies are merely responding to reality.
It is neither easy nor cheap to relocate jobs overseas. No company would prefer this, because they lose immediate control of the worker’s actions. Problems occurred when Dell tried to send its customer service desk to India which could not be corrected, so Dell brought those jobs back to the US.
“Now you say globalization increases our wealth. ”
Free trade increases wealth. Wealth is increased to the extent that Globalization is free. China does not practice free trade. If it did it would not be acting so mercantilistic or artificially tying their renminbi to the dollar.
“You can look at Wal Mart too. ”
You are opposed to cheap prices for poor people? That is typically Leftist of you. You are totally callused.
“But they treat their employees like crap.”
No, they don’t; they pay their workers more than they can get elsewhere. Polls of Walmart workers say that they like things as they are.
Walmart just does not allow Trade Unions which would jack up prices. If Walmart unionized, many of their employees would be laid off. Walmart has closed down stores in states or localities which forced them to unionize.
“We also know that countries subsidize their industry. They will do anything that will give them an edge. ”
Yes, but counter protectionism does not work. If we do not subsidize our industries, then our companies must become more efficient or go out of business. A subsidized industry eventual fails, because it corrupts the management and the employees. The best solution is freedom, even when other countries are playing unfairly.
“You call it socialism. In fact, you do not recognize our problems. ”
Sure, I do. I merely have solutions that you disagree with.
“You just think that the private economy will solve our problems. That private economy, will do whatever it takes to make money. And with globalization, people lose.”
Then tell me why the standard of living of all countries, except where the tyrants hold sway in the Mideast and Africa, is increasing? The freer the country is, the greater the increase. You are too bigoted to know the facts.
“It is interesting that you want to sit with your ideology of the Laffer curve and ignore everything else. ”
The Laffer curve deals with tax revenues, I specifically used it as why Obama’s tax increases will decrease tax revenues. It’s why nothing he does will work.
“It is interesting that your very actions or inactions create more welfare and you will not get tax revenue from this unemployed class.”
It is the government which causes unemployment. Paying them not to work increases the length of the unemployment.
“None of anything I have said is socialist. ”
I suggest that you define what socialism is. Every solution you have named, so far, is socialist.
Socialism is using governmental power to interfere in the economy, but there are varying degrees of Socialism. There are forms of Socialism which Republicans, unfortunately, would go along with.
“You are so caught up with your ideology. ”
We are on opposing sides of a culture war. The difference between us is that I have studied your social and economic systems, so I know why it doesn’t work. You won’t even look at my position. That is why every assertion you make about my position is wrong.
“I have only talked of fixing our problems. ”
None of your solutions have worked in the past; most of what you elitist want President Carter failed at in the 70s. Obama will repeat Carter’s history, if not worse.
“You have said nothing in fixing our problems (outside of oil drilling.)”
You are not listening. I said that there are knowledgeable people who know what to do, but they don’t work in Washington. Everything your elitist side has done has failed. It is time to replace you.
“It is the same o, same o of letting the private sector do whatever it wants. Just stand back, stay the course and we have no problems, according to you.”
You are totally bigoted, so here are some self help rules:
When you are in a hole — stop digging.
When your efforts are bringing you pain — stop repeating your mistakes.
When you don’t know what to do, and every thing you want to do has failed before — try something new.
When an adviser has, repeatedly, lead you into error — stop listening to them.
When all else has failed — read the instructions.
When all else has failed — try to find out what did work and when. Read some damned history.
When all else has failed — let someone else assume the controls and get the hell out of the way.
“The bottom 20% to 30% of the population never sees the benefit of this country as democrats do the wrong thing and the republicans just drop that group with their failed non trickle down policies.”
The Bible says that the “Poor will always be with us.” The poor is defined as that bottom 20 to 30%, so it must always be with us. The standard of living of the poor can proportionally rise with the rest of the economy, though. The American poor have cars, TV’s, washing machines, houses, cell phones and designer jeans. The grossest and most obese people I know are on welfare.
Before the financial meltdown, I shocked people by saying that, “The poorest state in the union, Mississippi, has a higher standard of living that the richest state in Europe, Sweden.”
“On the embryonic stem cell issue, show your ignorance. ”
The reputable scientists disagree with you. The results disagree with you. If this were a viable line of research, we would have at least one therapy from it. There are none.
We can learn as much from adult and placental stem cells. The scientists can even turned skin cells into stem cells. This is a much better line of research; it avoids rejection by the immune system.
“And why did California and other states vote for the embryonic issue? ”
At the time, the states were awash in money. Corrupt politicians could not avoid buying your votes. They lost all their investment. They were stupid.
“We had commissions for the base closings and it worked. ”
Yes, I approve of that. Sometimes, that is the only way to deal with corrupt politicians: pit them against each other.
“Since both democrats and republicans cannot cut spending, I find this a logical way of cutting spending.”
No, it won’t work against the real problems. No Democrat will give up the “entitlements.” That is cutting their throat.
“All I can say, is that you have proven that republicans are so far off the mark, that they are ignorant and arrogant.”
I am not ignorant. I know more than you do. I’ve lived long enough to see your elitist methods fail, time and again.
Nor am I arrogant. I have merely studied this issues for decades. I know what works.
“It is God and country and stay the course. ”
I knew you, eventually, would admit to being against God and America.
The last thing that I want is to stay the course. I want to roll back the government. I want to end the government’s interference in our economy and society.
I want my side of the culture war to win. I specifically stated what the Tradition American Virtues are. I stated where you European elitists have interfered in local government, civic associations, religion and family. Dreadful ramifications have followed. That is not staying the course.
Really amazing how you have all the answers with ideology and not pragmatism. Nothing in the world works by itself. No plant and no animal can live without water and food. No economic system runs by itself. No corporation has a CEO that sits by and just let things takes its course. You still have to manage the affairs and problems that arise.
Social Security is here to stay. It may not be the best program, but this is what we have. Bush tried to do it his way, which would have cost some 2 trillion dollars along with other problems. The best thing we can do is work with the numbers and also get people employed so they pay into the system.
And who are the conservatives? Well, we saw the right for 8 years. It was neoconism, corporate fascism, miliarism, laissez-faire, and religionism. It was stay the course and neglect our country. The tax cuts do not solve problems. If you have problems dealing with the bottom 20% to 30% of the population, then you have to do something. It can’t be some ideology. I have lived a long time too. And with each cycle and especially with the last, the bottom 20% to 30% of the population is just left hanging. So much for your ideology. Of course, in your mind there is no problems. And Bush said this last year at the Olympics “America, has no problems.” What a joke.
Capitalism is not self correcting, unless you accept a chronic poor and a middle class that is losing its standard of living.
I have never said anything of protecting us from reality with globalization or free trade, and I never said that American workers are too incompetent. Those are your words. You are very good in putting words in people mouths. This is typical of how republicans operate. I listened to Limbaugh and especially Hannity, and it is criticize and criticize and have no solutions.
What I have said on globalization is that cities and states cannot compete with 2 to 3 billion cheap laborers. That undercuts our middle class. And this is what we have been witnessing for the past few years. Anyone who doesn’t see this is ignorant. You have not given an answer on widgets. They can be made anywhere. So this is what we are up against. It is true China is manipulating its currency and nothing has been done about that and maybe they can’t do anything about it. The fact remains is that we have globalization and we have still have to deal with that.
On McDonalds, get off this minimum wage law bit. All companies will look to cheap labor if they can. That is their prerogative. We are in a new world with globalization and with 2 to 3 billion people cheap laborers in the world, we have to be more innovative. And that means investing in our country, in our people, and in the future. Since we have not done that, we will see many years of high unemployment. And this is the part our country has to do to survive, besides cutting spending and managing the books.
I would say it is not the government that is pricing us out of the market. We had a middle class, we built products, we supplied the world. Today, with China and other countries opening up, we are not in a world by ourselves. We enjoyed this after WW2, but that is no longer the case. The numbers are simple, 2 to 3 billion cheap laborers to our population of 300 million people. Add to that China with over 1 billion people, have 3 times the chance to create the brain power and intellectuals that will swarm what we do.
On subsidies, what I have talked about is government research grants to universities and businesses. Evidently, you ignored the Newsweek article in us losing our MOJO. If you want new industries and more jobs, then we have to invest in these areas. Companies can only do so much. The government can provide billions. We not only have 2 wars-militarily, but we have a war in globalization. You cannot and sit back and ignore the problems. And Capitalism by itself is not going to fix this problem. Capitalism only dictates what companies want to do. And they can do it in China or any other country. As of right now, in the area I live, there are no new jobs to go to.
Now you talk of government creating unemployment and you are right. It is your ignorance and not recognizing problems that is creating higher unemployment. After all, it was Wall Street and those in Washington that said we don’t need manufacturing jobs. So now what! So come up with an answer. Haven’t heard one yet from any republican. Since you know it all, come to the Midwest and see the damage. And don’t give me this blue state red state crap. Take the casinos our of Las Vegas and see what you get. Take the high tech away from Texas and see what you get. Take Broadway out of New York and see what you get. Yeah, talk is cheap. Now do something about it.
So “government should not interfere.” I wonder, if I see ants come into the house. Should I interfere or not. Now if our jobs are going overseas, what solutions do you propose besides the lowering of our wages? And those wages have to come down to our counterparts. Capitalism still is not perfect. And for the states involved, they are grasping for any government intervention. Like cash for clunkers, bailouts, and casinos. This is not the right thing to do, but your ideology has left us with no choice. Come to my state and tell us we don’t need these things and that you have an answer instead of this failed government intervention. Because this is all we have.
Here is your instructions:
“When you are in a hole — stop digging.
When your efforts are bringing you pain — stop repeating your mistakes.
When you don’t know what to do, and every thing you want to do has failed before — try something new.
When an adviser has, repeatedly, lead you into error — stop listening to them.
When all else has failed — read the instructions.
When all else has failed — try to find out what did work and when. Read some damned history.
When all else has failed — let someone else assume the controls and get the hell out of the way.”
And my answer. Get failed ideology out of the way and make this country work.
Now, I have been all over Europe. I see a consistent Middle Class. Sweden looked very nice to me. It is here where we have slums. It is here we have to avoid South Chicago, Central Los Angeles, or Euclid Ave. in Cleveland.
On embryonic stem cells.
You sure like to put out the Bull. Of course, we have heard all the arguments against it, brought on by David Prentice of the Family Research Council, a religious front.
Since you want to criticize embryonic stem cells, then let us back it up with those that are for it.
Paul Nurse, President, Rockefeller Center
Doug Melton, Co-director, Harvard stem cell institute
Larry Goldstein, Director, UC San Diego Stem cell program
Story Landis, National Institute of Neurological disorders and stroke
George Daley, Children’s Hospital Harvard stem cell institute
Now the science of adult stem cell has been around for over 30 years as opposed to embryonic stem cells with a little over 10 years. It takes many years of science to see any results. Embryonic stem cells have the ability to make all cells rise and they have a wider ability to change into different cell types.
Any abnormalities, any failures in this science is still a learning curve. Scientists still learn with what works and does not work. You cannot tie the hands of scientists because of religious ideologies. And that is all it was under Bush. And yes, that was government intervention. So republicans with their ideologies do interfere with capitalism.
And now you mention Carter. I have to agree he did not know what to do. But let us go back to see where all this inflation/stagflation started.
It was LBJ who wanted his Great Society and the expansion of the Vietnam, (guns and butter). And to pull this financing off, he had the federal reserve print the money. This created inflation, it takes some three years to see it. Nixon dealt with it with “wage and price controls” and failed. Inflation, interest rates, and unemployment went higher. Ford dealt with it with “WIN buttons” and failed. And again, inflation, interest rates, and unemployment went higher. Carter did not know what to do. However, in his last year, he did get Paul Volcker in as head of the fed. And under Reagan with the highest of interest rates, Volcker drove down inflation and we had over 20 years of a non inflationary economy.
Enter Bush and he pulls the same “guns and butter.” It was tax cuts, Medicare part D, and the Iraq war. All built on deficits and debt. And hey, even Cheney said that deficits were good. Bush also ignored all our problems, our infrastructure, and globalization. So this is where we are today. We will suffer many years because of this. We will suffer, as we did not invest in our country, in our people, and in our future. It was years of failed ideology and stay the course. A country run by a Social Conservative who threw economics out the window.
And this makes the republican party, a party of failed ideology. And no matter what republicans say or do, they have come off as a bunch of nuts. The democrats have no answers either, but it is interesting about the republicans, who are supposed to know better, don’t know a darn thing. You can criticize, you can preach capitalism and God and country, but you are hypocritical. You have no answers. And that is the sad truth. Republicans are a joke.
As I said, we are on different sides of the culture war. Eventually, talk must end between combatants; we must fight and let the truth prevail.
I am a Libertarian intellectual who leans heavily toward conservatism. You want to stereotype me as a hide bound Country Club Republican, when I am not. I was a working man all my life.
I only registered as a Republican in 2002. Back in the 60’s, I was a “Scoop” Jackson type of democrat who got pushed out of the Democrat Party by the McGovern- Fraser reforms of the late 60’s and early 70’s. I voted independent and Libertarian until after 9/11.
I moderately supported the Global War on Terrorism, but I never liked how President Bush ran the war. It was merely that the Democrats were utterly bankrupt of ideas. They had no solutions which had not failed before. They stood on the sidelines, lobbing endless accusations, lies and slurs, hoping that America would lose the war.
I didn’t like Obama winning the last election, but I can see why it was necessary for him to win. Obama will force a conflict between the two halves of America. The time for pretense and propaganda is over; the Democrat’s ideology and motives must be laid naked. They control the congress and the presidency, now. The Democrats must act, rather than hide behind a barrage of accusations.
Obama’s actions are producing great pain and confusion. This is political “Red Meat” which will utterly realign American politics. A great shift is already under way.
You want to tar me as having failed ideas when it is the Socialism of the elites which does not work and has never worked. The failed Social Democracy of the European Union is where Obama is trying to lead us. This is such a drastic change to our traditional culture and economy, that it will provoke an extreme reaction in ordinary Americans. They will wake up.
I tried to explain the differences between the traditional American virtues, as expressed in the American Tea Party Patriots, and the European Intellectual elitist values which are in control of the Democrat party. A battle is shaping up between those two ideologies.
The American Tea Party movement will continue to gain members from both political parties. It is still unclear what political party the Tea Party Patriots will take over. As a practical matter, it is better for us to take over the Republican Party and retire the Liberal Republicans and RINO’s like John McCain. It is better for us to be a Conservative movement inside the Republican Party which will not tolerate logrolling and power politics.
Since 63% of Americans are Conservative or Very Conservative, we must craft arguments which will appeal to them. The issues which we must run on must be supported by 70% of the American voters.
What this will do is undercut the accusations of people like you, GerryW. The 2010 election will be a referendum on Obama’s job performance. His favorability ratings are very low. HIs ratings are the lowest of any president in American history for the first year in office and they will be rock bottom by next November.
If the American Tea Party movement is to be a long term success, we must do more than win the next two elections. We must dismantle the institutions which the democrats have erected over the last hundred years. We must remove the state’s control over the economy and society. We must shift power, authority and money back to the individual states and the citizens. We must “SMASH THE STATE” and its power over us.
Let me tie this back to the original article. We American Tea Party Patriots do not resent you elitists in power. We are not victims of ressentiment any more than Americans were of George III in 1776. He was a tyrant and we ended his power over us.
We just think that you elitist are nuts. We do not want power over you; we want to end your power over us. We want you to get your hands out of our wallets. We want Americans to stop listening to your propaganda.
You Leftists have taken your socialist institutions, and your vote buying, as far as you can, before you fundamentally change our society. Most Americans disapprove of your politics and institutions, but the voters have not been presented with reasonable alternatives. It is our job, as Tea Party Patriots, to do so.
This means that the Republican Party must change. The power mungers in it must go. We Tea Party People must suborn the Republican Party and make it stand for what 70% of Americans already want. If we do, we can ignore anything which you elitists have to say.
I don’t think having tea parties or anything else is going to make a difference. The tea parties have a narrow focus. In other words, cut spending so that you don’t have to pay taxes. Both parties are spending the money, but the democrats never cry about paying higher taxes. I am not saying they are right. They need to stop spending. But republicans don’t want to pay taxes even though they like to spend too. You can’t have it both ways.
You say you are a libertarian and that takes you out of the main stream republican party. I just don’t think any committee or organization can see all the different problems. You may think just by reducing government or having tax cuts solves problems. (correct me if I am wrong on my assumption of you) And having seen years of cycles, years of both parties with their ignorance and arrogance, I see nothing that anyone in the limelight, both democrat and republican, both left and right, all the tea parties, have anything to offer.
I have given my view on the problems we have, especially on globalization. The numbers tell the story. Ignoring problems and being laissez-faire, actually increases more welfare. So if democrats are guilty of more government and ineffective government, then so are the republicans with ignoring our problems.
The biggest change in voting habits happened when Ross Perot ran. People know there are problems. You may think there is a referendum and it may sound good. But you have to come up with answers. If you don’t, you will fall flat on your face and you will never see daylight again. Tea parties are narrow minded, executing and management is totally different.
Something will happen bad in our economy in which it will be too late to avoid a disaster. We already know that we cannot keep spending like this. It will be a low dollar, inflation, stagflation, high interest rates, depression, more in taxes, or drastic cuts in services or programs that we face. On globalization, we already see the effects. And that is a lower standard of living for the middle class.
I would like to be conservative and not radical. I think we can have an effective government, but we need to stop electing loud mouths and lawyers. There are ways to cut spending and I have suggested commissions, but you tore that down. In other words, you want to be just as ignorant and arrogant as the rest. So nothing has changed, and tea parties are not going to be any different.
“I don’t think having tea parties or anything else is going to make a difference. ”
It hardly matters what you think. It’s about what millions of Americans, who are tired of Obama’s usurpations and unconstitutional actions, will do.
“The tea parties have a narrow focus. In other words, cut spending so that you don’t have to pay taxes. ”
No, you only see what you want to see. The Tea Party movement is more than about taxes.
“Both parties are spending the money, but the democrats never cry about paying higher taxes.”
Of course, not. The democrats expect their enemies to pay the taxes while they get government jobs.
“But republicans don’t want to pay taxes even though they like to spend too. You can’t have it both ways.”
This is why we American Tea Party Patriots are opposed to big Spending Republicans, too.
Our method is to cut spending AND end programs. It is to repeal the enabling legislation which allows the federal bureaucracy to exist. It is to require that the Congress explain, in every bill, where it gets its constitutional authority to pass a law. It is to make it illegal for the Federal government to interfere in the economy and society. We must curb the Supreme Court’s jurisdiction in the economy which contradicts the constitution. We must end block grants to states and localities which have strings attached. We must end federal control over our lives.
“You say you are a libertarian and that takes you out of the main stream republican party. ”
No, where else do you think the Republican Party gets its ideas from? Reagan’s position that “The government is the problem, not the solution” is a Libertarian idea. The founding fathers, and over 60% of Americans, would agree with that position.
Besides, I am also a Conservative. I want to protect the traditional American virtues. I want more than individual freedom. I want social institutions which induce citizens into being independent of the state. I want citizen sovereignty, hence, I want to keep the money and power out of the hands of the grafters and corrupters. So, power and responsibility must remain very close to the people.
“I just don’t think any committee or organization can see all the different problems. ”
Then, why do you think that a committee or organization run by government employees can see all the different problems?
I agree with your goals; we just have different methods. I want to get the government out of our lives. That way the people can take charge and fix their own, and their neighbor’s, problems. Let a thousand voluntary and local programs try to solve the social issues. Discard the failures.
” I see nothing that anyone in the limelight, both democrat and republican, both left and right, all the tea parties, have anything to offer.”
Your ability to see or understand anything is in serious question. I see no evidence that you can think clearly.
“The numbers tell the story. Ignoring problems and being laissez-faire, actually increases more welfare. ”
There are no laissez-faire governments in the world, not even the Swiss. We have not had any since the 1920s. What you say is laissez-faire is actually individual freedom. We have no individual freedom in America and it is you who oppose it.
“So if democrats are guilty of more government and ineffective government, then so are the republicans with ignoring our problems.”
Since we American Tea Party Patriots oppose both political parties as corrupt, I see no reason to accept blame for either party’s prior actions. Throw the Liberal Republicans and the RINO’s out of office.
“The biggest change in voting habits happened when Ross Perot ran. ”
Ross Perot was correct in what he said. His economics were sound but his politics were impractical. He stole enough votes from George H. W. Bush to make sure that Clinton won. That was dumb.
“People know there are problems. You may think there is a referendum and it may sound good. But you have to come up with answers.”
I told you we have the answers: stop doing what is counter productive. Stop centralizing power and money at the federal level. Stop any program which causes more problems than it cures. End the federal bailouts of persons, states or organizations. What other answers do you want from me?
If you disagree with this program, then give me a logical argument. Support your position with evidence. Cite where you got your facts. Show me why my program won’t work. You opinions are not proof.
The failures in America are in the areas which the Democrats control. I will show you where my solutions have already worked.
“If you don’t, you will fall flat on your face and you will never see daylight again. ”
Practical politics says that we must promote conservative issues which 70% of Americans support. Next, we must have political leaders who will carry out the people’s will. The American people are conservative and will support us, if we do this. This is not rocket science, Gerry. We don’t need a gaggle of experts, here. This is common sense.
“Tea parties are narrow minded, executing and management is totally different.”
You are premature; you are asking too much, too soon. The movement is just beginning; it is a social movement which has not yet taken political control. Its major function is to hold the politician’s feet to the fire.
“Something will happen bad in our economy in which it will be too late to avoid a disaster. ”
The disaster is already occurring and Obama is causing it. Everything he is doing will create a bad economy. He is nationalizing industries. He is persuading small business people to avoid taking risks or hiring people. He is causing capital to flee the country. He is suborning the constitution and socializing America. He is funding corruption. He will, like Jimmy Carter, produce a stagnant economy with high price inflation. He will use every crisis, he causes, as an excuse for more governmental interference.
“We already know that we cannot keep spending like this. ”
Tell the government that.
” On globalization, we already see the effects. And that is a lower standard of living for the middle class.”
Obama is engaged in impoverishing America. Our economy was larger than the next six economies combined, so as America’s economy declines, so does the world’s. Globalization is not a factor here.
“I would like to be conservative and not radical. ”
Define the words Conservative and Radical. I do not believe you know what they are. Is it radical to oppose tyranny?
“I think we can have an effective government,”
Effective at doing what? What services do you like from the government? Which of those services are constitutional? Which of these services are only needed because of previous governmental depredations of the people’s rights?
First, the government impoverishes people and then gives them handouts. The government must steal from the people to give the handouts. That causes a downward economic spiral until there is no wealth for the government to expropriate and the last producer has fled the country. Look at pre-Thatcher England, for examples of where Obama will take us.
“There are ways to cut spending and I have suggested commissions, but you tore that down. ”
The Democrats will not give up their entitlements. It is foolish to think that they will. You have no leverage over them. They must be run out of office.
“In other words, you want to be just as ignorant and arrogant as the rest. ”
No, I just have methods which you will not look at.
“So nothing has changed, and tea parties are not going to be any different.”
The America economy and society has been much changed for the worse. And the Tea Party movement is a reaction to that change.
We don’t know what we can do in the next two elections to undo the damage which Obama has caused. Then, we have the long work of correcting the corruption in our government and society which the Leftist elites have caused.
Of course, you will disparage this and say that nothing can be done. But, we are not doomed to become like the European Union.
That is why I believe that Obama is part of the corrective process. He will push our backs to the wall, so that our only solution is to come out fighting.
I have given solutions before. I see nothing in your tea party movement as it is still narrow minded. You ignore globalization and what it is doing to this country. You have a right to criticize government spending and programs, but like all those on the right, you want to ignore other forces. It has been laissez-faire as far as investing in our country, in our people, and in the future. I see nothing as you offer as a solution. People cannot take control of their lives if 2 to 3 billion people want their jobs. Cheap labor rules in economics. You offer nothing in cutting spending except to get rid of democrats. You are living in a dream world, and with what you say, then we can get rid of of the republicans also as they have no answer. In fact, the tea parties have no answer. Same o, same o.
“I have given solutions before. I see nothing in your tea party movement as it is still narrow minded. ”
I question your ability to see anything accurately. Your elitist bigotry drives you, Gerry.
Nothing you say has anything to do with the original article. All you do is repeat mindless Leftist talking points. I have squashed them hundreds of times before.
This is boring, but useful. Other people may be reading this discussion. They may be more open minded than you are.
They may have never heard these arguments debated before. They could live in Berkeley, for God’s sake.
“You ignore globalization and what it is doing to this country. ”
Globalization has been going on since the 1500s. It is how Western culture, science and commerce has been spreading through-out the world.
Economic and militarily successful cultures tend to expand. Fortunately, the US is not imperialistic; we would rather buy resources at market rates, than to steal them by military action.
If it is cheaper to send jobs overseas because our government regulates and taxes too highly, in order to waste money on social programs to buy the votes of the ignorant, then the market dictates that those jobs must leave.
A market place is in continual adjustment — a constant economic upheaval to adjust to local conditions. The cloth making Industry started off in New England, then moved to the Southern US and then out of America. It was usually Trade Union extortion, and increasing state regulations, which prompted the move.
The point, which you elitists cannot stand, is that you, and your cabal, are not in control. You are part the anti-globalization forces, Gerry. This makes you against Western Civilization and its spread. Your arguments are designed to achieve this. It doesn’t matter if your positions contradict each other, so long as you can delude people.
Also, you will never define anything. If you tried to define your beliefs, they would fall apart in disarray. So, it is helpful for you to remain ignorant and blind.
You elitists oppose the impersonal market forces which dictate what will be produced and by whom. Thus, you elitists are against free trade. You are opposed to allowing other people to be free.
But, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. Everything the elitists do, every program you create, has ramifications and consequences which you cannot escape. What you cannot see is that your political actions are producing the effects which you hate.
The smart thing to do is to understand those market forces and take advantage of them. The problem with obeying the market is that the optimum social and economic system is one with little governmental control. And what control there is should be very close to the citizenry. Political corruption expands when power, money and influence are moved far away from the people who create them. This is why Washington D.C. is so corrupt and getting worse.
The problem is that elitists are incompetent in markets. That is why the elitists crowd into places where there is little competition. They crowd into education, the bureaucracy, the Media and Hollywood where they can use influence to prevent a competitor from taking their job. It is all about scratching other people’s backs to get your back scratched.
Competence has little place there. It’s all about who you know and what schools you have gone to. Its values are so Aristocratic that when someone shows that they are competent, they must be destroyed. They are the enemy. This explains the elitists insane reaction to Sarah Palin.
The elitists resent that lowly born people who work hard and think smart will always out produce them. This is the source of the intellectual’s resentment of the markets. It explains why the world’s revolutions are led by the intellectual elites, not the workers, the poor or the disenfranchised which they claim to represent.
“You have a right to criticize government spending and programs, but like all those on the right, you want to ignore other forces. ”
No, it is you who ignore the forces at work. This is because you know no economics or real history. You have an inability to make a logical case. You cannot provide anything more than an opinion.
“It has been laissez-faire as far as investing in our country, in our people, and in the future. ”
Laissez-faire is not a leftist curse word. It has a definition and a history.
Laissez-faire is part of the phrase “laissez-faire – laissez passer.” It, in French, means “Let it do, let it pass.” It is part of the Classical Liberal economic theory which states that the government should leave the economy alone and let goods pass freely between borders.
It is absurd to think that laissez-faire is the state of America’s or the world’s economy. We have endless government restrictions and controls in America. We had, in the 2008 Federal Register, 80,700 pages of governmental rules.
“I see nothing as you offer as a solution. ”
That is because you are blind to anything that I say.
“People cannot take control of their lives if 2 to 3 billion people want their jobs. Cheap labor rules in economics. ”
That is false. The world has always had cheaper labor rates and the West survived just fine. Why? Our workers are much more efficient.
In the 19th Century, merchants shipped to India the automatic looms and threading machines which were being used in England. The assumption was that, because the source of England’s cotton was in India, that the machines would produce much cheaper cloth there. This proved not to be the case.
It proved cheaper to ship the cotton to England, turn it into thread and cloth and then, ship the cloth back to India. Why? Because the labor in India was less productive than labor in England. A mill worker in England could tend between 10 and 20 threading machines when an Indian worker could control only one or two. This made up for the difference in labor rates. The word you are ignorant of is “Productivity.” It offsets low labor rates.
“You offer nothing in cutting spending except to get rid of democrats. ”
I have said that Liberal Republicans and RINO’s must go, too.
We must rid ourselves of the Democrats, because they stand in the way of change. They will not voluntarily give up their Socialist governmental Institutions, such as Social Security or the entitlements. They do this for selfish reasons, because they are employed in these institutions and are paid quite well. If those government programs end, they would have to go to work for a living.
“You are living in a dream world, ”
Reality is about to intrude on YOUR dream world, Gerry. Obama’s socialist programs will produce pain and dislocation. The US will be in so much agony that ordinary people, who have been conned by the Leftist Media, will finally see through the illusions of the elites. The elitists cannot avoid taking the blame. The electorate will notice that Obama is repeating Jimmy Carter’s failed administration, and take action. It was how Reagan won every state, but five, in 1980.
“and with what you say, then we can get rid of the republicans also as they have no answer. ”
No one has an answer which you will look at, Gerry. It is your bigotry which prevents that. You are incapable of learning from life.
“In fact, the tea parties have no answer. Same o, same o.”
Time will tell.
You are another Sean Hannity. Great for you. You are a nut.
I have said no more than what a CEO would do. You invest in your country, in your people, and in the future. I cited Newsweek and the Hudson institute. It is you who wants to sit on Ideology and think all is okay. Just like Bush, “America, has no problems.” So we just don’t have to do anything. What a joke.
Yes, we have seen it all under Bush. Name an ideology and it all fails. We have seen the true republican party. You cannot run a country on neoconism, corporate fascism, militarism, laissez-faire, and religionism. And Bush displayed social conservatism and never cared about economics or the managing of our country. Even Cheney said deficits don’t matter, and the republicans closed their ears. Oh, by the way, if Bush did not get his orders from Cheney, then he got it from God. And Bush stayed the course. Yeah, we saw the problems over 5 years ago, I said the same 5 years ago and this is where we are. A total mess.
And Sarah Palin? This is laughable. You people are something. But keep it up, who needs cartoons when we have a bunch of nuts to listen to.
So, You presume to be a Psychologist, now?
I assure you that I am lucid. I merely disagree with you and have the facts and logic to back me up.
What’s wrong with you? Have you never lost a debate before?
Of course, my opinions could have gotten me committed to an asylum in the Soviet Union in the 80s. But, that was where the government sent the sane people who disagreed with them. Obama will send them to jail for not buying health insurance.
There is a rule in debate. Anyone who, first, uses the insanity argument or compares his opponent to Hitler, loses the debate.
“I have said no more than what a CEO would do. You invest in your country, in your people, and in the future. ”
Add business management to the list of many things at which you are incompetent. A CEO would only invest where there is a chance of making a profit.
If the country you reside in turns hostile to business, such as Pre Thatcher England did, a CEO will not invest. He will sneak his wealth, and that of his company, out of the country and soon he will follow it. If you have skills and abilities, you become part of the “brain drain.”
People vote with their feet; they move from less free to more free territories. That is why people are moving from the cities controlled by the Democrats to the southwestern US. Detroit is becoming a ghost town.
“I cited Newsweek and the Hudson institute. It is you who wants to sit on Ideology and think all is okay. ”
I saw no such citations. You gave no URL’s.
Besides, both Newsweek and the Hudson Institute have a leftist bias. Newsweek, in the last year, has had Obama on its cover 27 times. They are in love with the man. I do not consider either an authoritative source. They make no good arguments.
Nor are you persuasive. You are too predictable. I can shoot down every position you make. You need to stop reading Media Matters, Firedoglake and the Daily Kos to get your dsily opinions.
By the way, Ideology is not a curse word, although that is how the Leftists often use it. The way Google defines ideology is:
“An ideology is a set of aims and ideas, especially in politics. An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision, as a way of looking at things (compare Weltanschauung), as in common sense…”
Are you so mindless as to think that you have no ideology? Like Obama, you are a socialist. That is an ideology.
“Just like Bush, “America, has no problems.” ”
I cannot believe that Bush ever said anything that fatuous. I want to see it in a longer quote to learn its context.
I, myself, could easily say “America, has no problems… except for those caused by the Democrats, the Europeans and the Islamo-fascist. That statement is too simplistic, of course; It is only 85% correct.
You could snip off the end that statement so that it becomes idiotic. That is probably what you, or some other leftist, did to Bush.
It is not my job in life to defend President Bush or any current Republican. I had my problems with Bush, mostly for giving in, too often, to the Democrats in Congress.
“So we just don’t have to do anything. What a joke.”
I never said that we don’t have to do anything. I laid out a scheme for rolling back the size and effect of the Federal government. That is not nothing.
I want to destroy the Democrat party. That is not nothing.
I laid out a political game plan for the 2010 and 12 elections. Didn’t you read it?
“Yes, we have seen it all under Bush. Name an ideology and it all fails. ”
I name Socialism as an ideology. See it fail, everywhere.
“We have seen the true republican party. ”
I am not defending the Republican party. We American Tea Party Patriots are aware of how corrupt both political parties are.
Don’t worry. We’ll clean up the Republican party by tossing out the RINO’s and the Liberal Republicans. Obama is radicalizing the county for us.
“You cannot run a country on neoconism, corporate fascism, militarism, laissez-faire, and religionism. ”
I bet you cannot define any of those big words. Hence, you don’t know what any of them mean. They are just Leftist curse words to you.
“Even Cheney said deficits don’t matter, and the republicans closed their ears.”
It is traditional during wartime to run deficits. The idea is that it is preferable to pay high taxes later than to lose a war now.
But again, I would want to see a full quote, rather than take your word for anything.
“Oh, by the way, if Bush did not get his orders from Cheney, then he got it from God. ”
How long have you been an atheist? A God hater? Or is it that you are a victim of Bush Derangement Syndrome? I’m guess at both, now.
I’m sure Bush prayed. Perhaps, he wanted answers on how to deal with the insane left. I know how he feels. That is why I pray.
“And Bush stayed the course. ”
If you know where you are going then “staying the course” is the proper thing to do.
Obama campaigned as a moderate, but he showed his true leftist colors as soon as he took office and started pushing America toward a social democracy. Despite the fact that over 70% of American’s, now, disapprove of his socialist plans, he is “staying the course.” Should he veer off?
Obama will pay a heavy political price later. He merely assumes that he will screw up the country, so much, that it will never return to what it was.
It is too soon to say, but I think not. Obama will smash both political parties. Every Conservative in the Democrat Party will be forced to leave it. We American Tea Party Patriots will have to build a new party out of the rubble he leaves.
The prudent thing to do is to take over the carcass of the Republican Party, because most of the people, in it, are true blue Americans. We Tea Party Patriots just have a problem with its leadership.
“”And Sarah Palin? This is laughable. You people are something. But keep it up, who needs cartoons when we have a bunch of nuts to listen to.”
I was using Sarah Palin as an example of elitist insanity and over reaction.
I use Sarah as a weather vane. If a person mildly disagrees with her, I will think of them as being ignorant or biased, but rational.
If a person foams at the mouth at the mention of her name, then I know that I am dealing with a European Intellectual elite. Thank you for pegging yourself, Gerry.
t seems evident now that GerryW will not be replying to my last post, so let me wrap this thread up.
What Julian Sanchez did in his article titled “The Politics of Ressentimentâ€ was to deny any possibility that Sarah Palin and The American Tea Party Patriots are just in believing that they are being unfairly treated.
Julian’s belief was bizarre that Sarah Palin was acting out an “exaggerated victimhood.â€ This was despite a barrage of vile, sexist and disgusting attacks on her, by the Democrat party activists and the Mainstream Media, which were unprecedented in American history. Tell me, when else has a mother of five been accused of not being a woman? Julian’s position was so strange that I had to wonder where his head has been in the last year. Apparently, it has been up his butt.
I expanded the topic by bringing into discussion the culture war in progress in America. Every war includes disinformation and propaganda and Julian’s article fit as part of that pattern. The technique is called “blaming the victim.”
The culture war’s participants have many labels. The titles I used were from Alexis De Tocqueville’s 1830s book, “Democracy in America. The titles exhibit different world views or ideologies. The combatants of the culture war are those holding the Traditional American Virtues versus those holding European Intellectual Values. It may be simpler to think of this fight as between the proponents of the common man versus the aristocratic elites.
What makes this conflict confusing is that the Leftists in the Democrat Party are propagandists who will misuse and distort words to confuse their enemies. Too often, that serves to confuse themselves.
An excellent example of this is the word “Liberal” which is the historic captive of the Democrat Party. Its dictionary definition is that of “freedom seeker.” A freedom Seeker is a person who favors smaller, less intrusive, government and more personal control of their lives. But, there are people in the Obama administration, who call themselves Liberals, who are espousing totalitarian ideas.
GerryW entered the fray to confront me. He dismissed the idea of a culture war without giving evidence or logic to say why it is invalid. He then wanted to use Saul Alinski’s method’s, but they don’t work on me. He tried to nail me to a cross with a Republican placard on it. My past in the Democrat Party refutes that.
He trotted out a laundry list of Leftist grievances. Somehow, I was personally responsible for President Bush, when I hadn’t voted at all in the 2000 election.
He was opposed to Globalization, he said. It was soon clear that what he feared was Americanization of the world. He would moan about jobs being lost overseas, but anyone who has studied this subject has found the results are mixed.
Gerry wouldn’t stand still and take the blow when I trashed has arguments. He would constantly change to subject trying to attack me from a different angle. I would reply, but would try to bring the topic back to the culture war. He was not a good debate partner. Why? Because he had no real interest in discerning the truth.
The truth, he felt, was any side he chose to be a part of. Truth is hard and fix to me. I must find it and, then, conform myself to its meaning.
That is a fundamental difference between Conservatives and Leftists. A Leftist thinks that if they get enough people to agree with them that 2+2= 5, then it will be 5. I do not believe that it is within any human being’s power to change 2+2 =4 into another number. If I lie to myself and pretend that it is some other figure, then all this does is make me be in error.
So it is with the left. The reason they are so poor at debate is that truth as no real meaning to them. They don’t know what things are, because they can define nothing. This helps them, tomorrow, when they change their positions. They can, then, say that left is right and up is down, war is peace and freedom is slavery.