Ron DeSantis Opens Mouth, Inserts Foot

Less than twelve hours into the General Election campaign for Florida Governor, Ron DeSantis is already making mistakes.

Within twelve hours after winning the Republican nomination for Florida Governor, setting up a race with African-American Tallahassee Mayor Terry Gillum, Congressman Ron DeSantis managed to put his foot in his mouth:

Rep. Ron DeSantis, the newly christened Republican gubernatorial candidate in Florida, said Wednesday that voters would “monkey this up” if they elect his Democratic opponent, Andrew Gillum, who would be the state’s first African American governor.

During an interview on Fox News, DeSantis praised Gillum, the mayor of Tallahassee, as “an articulate spokesman” for those holding “far-left views,” but warned he would be damaging to the state.

“The last thing we need to do is to monkey this up by trying to embrace a socialist agenda with huge tax increases and bankrupting the state,” DeSantis said. “That is not going to work. That’s not going to be good for Florida.”

His comments brought a swift rebuke from Terrie Rizzo, chairwoman of the Florida Democratic Party, who said they were racially tinged.

“It’s disgusting that Ron DeSantis is launching his general election campaign with racist dog whistles,” Rizzo wrote on Twitter.

Stephen Lawson, a DeSantis spokesman, later said that such characterizations were “absurd.”

“Ron DeSantis was obviously talking about Florida not making the wrong decision to embrace the socialist policies that Andrew Gillum espouses,” Lawson said. “To characterize it as anything else is absurd.” .

Even taking DeSantis at the word of his campaign spokesperson that there wasn’t anything racial intended by his remarks regarding Gillum, it’s easy to see how they could be interpreted that way. The “monkey” part of the comment is, I think, obvious, but one could easily say the same thing about his reference to Gillum as being “articulate,” is also not an uncommon condescending manner by which African-Americans, particularly well-education African-Americans, have been referred to in the past as if to differentiate them from other members of their race who are not articulate. Immediately, the incident brings to mind George Allen’s “macaca moment” during the 2006 Senate race in Virginia between him and former Senator Jim Webb. The fact that, in this case, the comment came just hours after Florida Democrats had nominated the first major party African-American nominee in the state;s history, should have at least led DeSantis to realize how using certain language to be easily misinterpreted.

In a rational world, DeSantis would immediately apologize for what he said, and he would talk to Gillum personally about it. The sooner the better. There is absolutely no cost to DeSantis to do this, and it will prevent the media and his opponents from being able to accuse him of trying to make race an issue in the race. As we’ve learned all too well, though, we no longer live in a rational world so DeSantis likely to stubbornly let this continue to fester and to provide his opponents with ammunition that he could easily deprive them of simply by uttering the words “I’m sorry.” If only politics were that simple.

FILED UNDER: Quick Takes, Race and Politics, US Politics, , , ,
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. Michael Reynolds says:

    We’re supposed to be surprised that a member of the white supremacist party said something racist? Of course he said something racist: he’s a racist appealing to the racist fans of a racist president.

    36
    4
  2. MarkedMan says:

    “Mistake”? I don’t think that word means what you think it does. I would defer to any Floridians on this, but “Monkey it up” is not an expression I’ve every heard before. “Screw it up”, or “Muck it up” but “Monkey”? Desantis appears to have made up his own expression and lo and behold it has ugly racial connotations.

    26
    3
  3. MarkedMan says:

    FWIW, here’s my free campaign advice to Gillum: make it a theme of the campaign that Desantis is only interested in dragging us back to the past, of refighting the civil rights battle, the women’s rights battles, the Confederate flag, and if you think there are more important things the government should be doing like schools and medical care and roads and national defense and so on, then vote Gillum. Leave Desantis and his angry obsession with the past behind.

    14
    4
  4. george says:

    My own suspicion – the intention of using the word ‘monkey’ was not a dog whistle to conservatives, but an attempt to get a strong reaction from democrats. That strong reaction is what he hopes to use to get a large conservative turnout. For instance, Sarah Jeong’s tweets (I’m guessing she was joking) about looking forward to white genocide probably did more to get out conservative voters than any dog whistle could ever achieve.

    Currently the strongest reactions seem to be not to what politicians say (they’re all repeating themselves, and predictable is boring – even Trump is in an obnoxious steady pattern), but to the craziest people on the other side. Which is why partisan sites go out of their way to find the nut cases (nazis, communists, extremists among the down and out or college students) and attempt to paint them as representative of their opposition party.

    DeSantis wants a few over the top reactions from left wingers, something which paints all conservatives as racist is always good, to play to conservatives who might be staying home on election night. Expect more of this to come, especially if he gets even a handful of pretty nutty leftwing responses.

    5
    6
  5. george says:

    @MarkedMan:

    Actually I have, its a variation of ‘throwing a monkey wrench into it – its a fairly common expression among older folks.

    But as I said, I think he deliberately used it, fishing for an over reaction from extreme leftwingers (say the handful of college students who are really over the top) that he could use later as examples of ‘typical’ democrats.

    6
    4
  6. TM01 says:

    Actually, “articulate” immediately brings to mind Joe Biden’s description of Obama.

    In a rational world, he would apologize and that would be it. But the Left isn’t rational and there will be much wailing, gnashing of teeth, and screaming at the sky because of this, because now it’s acceptable to punch a Nazi.

    And actually, I’m also reminded of that cartoon where the cops shot the monkey that wrote the Obama “stimulus” bill. Because Everything Is Racist.

    3
    36
  7. Franklin says:

    @MarkedMan: To be honest, I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that term in the distant past. It’s certainly not common, but I could see it related to more common usage like “he’s monkeying around with the engine right now” which implies somebody doesn’t know precisely what they’re doing.

    Anyway, it’s no coincidence that its usage has suddenly reappeared.

    EDIT: Just saw george’s similar comment. Fully agreed.

  8. Gustopher says:

    Meanwhile, the fact that DeSantis refers to his Gillum’s policies as “Socialist” is just a thing that happens these days, and passes without notice.

  9. TM01 says:

    Amazing how all the Nazis commenting here KNOW exactly what DeSantis meant.

    Never mind common phrases. Never mind the explanation.

    You all KNOW what’s going thru his mind.

    4
    27
  10. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    @TM01:

    And actually, I’m also reminded of that cartoon where the cops shot the monkey that wrote the Obama “stimulus” bill.

    You mean the stimulus that pulled the economy out of a death spiral and set in motion a record long bull market, that today your dear leader is ridiculously trying to claim credit for?
    Dumb, you are.

    23
    2
  11. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    @TM01:

    You all KNOW what’s going thru his mind.

    He supports Dennison, an abject racist.
    If you support racism, you are in fact a racist.
    That includes you.

    19
    2
  12. Mister Bluster says:

    @TM01:..now it’s acceptable to punch a Nazi.

    Where have you been Zippy?
    During World War II it was the policy of the United States Government to kill as many as we could.

    36
    1
  13. TM01 says:

    @Daryl and his brother Darryl:

    stimulus that pulled the economy out of a death spiral

    Lemme guess…next you’re going to complain about the deficit.

    And anyone who compares the antifa fscks to US soldiers is a complete idiot.

    1
    24
  14. Andrei Vfeked says:

    ANDREW Gillum, not Terry. No relation to the Python member. 🙂

  15. Gustopher says:

    I am impressed that DeSantis managed to use both “articulate” and “monkey” in the same interview about his black opponent, immediately after the primaries. Usually Republican candidates are a bit more niggardly with their easily misunderstood phrasing.

    I did not see that one coming.

    16
    1
  16. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    @TM01:

    next you’re going to complain about the deficit.

    Am I going to complain about the largest non-recession-year increase in the deficit in history? The trillion dollar corporate giveaway? The one your dear leader passed? Yes.
    Take a look at what it has done for all the red-hats out there…absolutely nothing.
    https://twitter.com/CAPAction/status/1034808301886820353/photo/1
    It was supposed to boost wages. Wages are flat.
    It was supposed to create jobs. The last 18 months of Obama’s presidency saw more jobs created than the first 18 months of Dennison’s.
    The Obama stimulus, to which you refer, brought an end to the Bush Contraction, boosted GDP by 3 points, and dropped the unemployment rate by 1.5 points…and it was only 3/4 as large as Dennison’s pointless giveaway to the wealthy.
    Dumb, you still are.

    24
    1
  17. Gustopher says:

    @Franklin: It has not suddenly reappeared, it never went anywhere. The only sudden thing is that there are now more black candidates running for office, and more opportunities for the phrases “monkey around,” “monkey business,” etc to be used in proximity.

    Because of historical context, there are some phrases and things that pass unnoticed when used about white people, that take on a different meaning when used about or around black people. Like how cartoons depicting George W. Bush as a monkey like Curious George were entirely different from cartoons depicting Obama as Curious George — even if Obama’s ears really did stick out. And sometimes it is an honest mistake.

    Assuming he did not actually mean to cause offense, DeSantis should apologize — and not one of those “I’m sorry you’re so thin skinned” apologies, a “I absolutely did not mean that in a racist way, but I can see how it was interpreted that way, and I’m a bit embarrassed by it and am sorry to have caused offense” apology.

    Also, he should not directly address Gillum and say “boy am I sorry.”

    12
  18. An Interested Party says:

    I’m shocked that one of Trump’s biggest ass-kissers is acting like Trump, aren’t you?

    @george: Using that logic, Gillum should make some ridiculous comment about conservative DeSantis so that conservatives can overreact and liberals will turn out to vote for the Democrat…

    4
    1
  19. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    Also, he should not directly address Gillum and say “boy am I sorry.”

    Good point! Nice joke, too. Very quick.

    3
    1
  20. Kylopod says:

    @MarkedMan:

    I would defer to any Floridians on this, but “Monkey it up” is not an expression I’ve every heard before. “Screw it up”, or “Muck it up” but “Monkey”?

    I was actually curious about this, and I did a Google search for instances of the phrase before today. I did indeed find a few examples here and there of the phrase (one from a 2016 page: “His observations are in the chart below–assuming posting this doesn’t monkey it up beyond repair.”)–though there was only 12 pages total, some of them weren’t examples of the phrase (the search caught stuff like a sentence ending in “monkey” followed by one starting with “It’s up”) or seemed to be using it with a different meaning than “mess it up,” and in any case I couldn’t find the phrase in any idiomatic dictionary.

  21. george says:

    @An Interested Party:

    Actually that’s a good tactic, and in fact its what web sites like Salon and Slate do pretty frequently: find some crazy on the right and paint them as representing every conservative. Its a common tactic across the board (and has been for centuries and across the globe) because it works – people are always quick to believe the worst of their opponent’s intentions towards themselves (ie to believe they are going to be personally under attack if the other side gains power).

    The game isn’t to change people’s opinions – 40% aren’t interested enough to even bother voting, and 95% of those who do vote always vote for the same ‘team’, whether they like the ‘quarterback’ or not, or even agree with the policy’s. Voting is about the team you support for most people, the actual leaders and policies are a very distant second (or third) – which is why most people never change who they vote for.

    Winning under those circumstances is based on getting your fans out to vote, and being able to quote crazy’s on the other side saying nasty things about your supporters (ie “every voter is a ” goes a long way to making your supporters feel like they’re personally under attack (often for things they aren’t and haven’t done … ie every Democrat is a closet communist, every Republican is a closet Nazi) – and people who feel like they’re personally attacked get out and vote.

    Attacking someone’s party leader doesn’t have the same effect; most people don’t lose much sleep over hearing their team’s politicians being slandered (truthfully or not). The same people will be spurred to vote if they feel themselves being slandered.

    Ideally, we want Democrat voters to feel threatened by Republicans, and Republican voters to feel indifferent about Democrats – indifferent people have better things to do than vote.

    3
    2
  22. gVOR08 says:

    I’m sure this was an innocent slip by DeSantis. A small slip of the tongue like Republicans sometimes make, over, and over, and over. And you can’t quite prove it’s racist.

    22
    1
  23. Michael Reynolds says:

    @george:
    Oh, baloney. There is such a thing as reality. In reality Trump and the GOP are white supremacists. That’s not tactical or strategic, it’s reality. It is right there in front of us. There is nothing on the Left that comes anywhere close to being some sort of counterbalance to that extremism.

    We don’t grab random loons and assign their values to the entire party, we don’t need to, we grab the leadership of the Republican Party to make our points. The equivalence is false.

    14
    2
  24. Mister Bluster says:

    A small slip of the tongue like Republicans sometimes make, over, and over, and over. And you can’t quite prove it’s racist.

    Kinda’ like rapists, huts and shitholes.
    Outhouse Analogies From the White House

  25. James Joyner says:

    I know next to nothing about Ron DeSantis other than that he’s a 1) Republican Congressman and 2) attached himself to Trump. Absent 2, I’d assume that “monkey it up” was an awkward euphemism for “f— it up.” Given 2, I don’t know. It’s sad, though, that we’re in a position that we assume any attack on a black Democrat by a Republican opponent is to draw attention to the obvious ( he’s black) rather than a standard attack on Democrats. But, by buying into Trump, Republicans have brought that onto themselves.

    21
    3
  26. george says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Sorry, but that’s BS. Not all GOP’ers are white supremacists. For a start about 10% of blacks voted for Trump, about 15% of Native Americans, 27% of Asian Americans. Trust me, they’re not white supremacists. Many of them don’t even like whites as a whole – their vote is based on very different things (though I suspect it comes down to habit).

    Beyond that, most people vote for the same team they’ve always voted for, and in most cases it never had anything to do with policies – I suspect the single biggest driver for that crucial first vote is either voting like or unlike their parents’ politics.

    You may well look at policies and so on when you vote. I suspect you’re as rare in that as you are in being able to make a living putting words on paper (or I suppose now-a-days, onto a word processor).

    All GOP voters are racists has the same truth value as when it was stated all Democrats were communists – that is, its simply false.

  27. the Q says:

    While not all Republicans tend to be racists, most racists tend to be Republican.

    I am sure we can all agree on that…..

    21
    4
  28. gVOR08 says:

    @James Joyner:

    I know next to nothing about Ron DeSantis other than that he’s a 1) Republican Congressman and 2) attached himself to Trump. Absent 2, I’d assume that “monkey it up” was an awkward euphemism for “f— it up.” Given 2, I don’t know.

    Once Trump is gone, and assuming we haven’t descended into a Putin style autarchy, the big political issue will be – was it Trump, or was it Republicans. This comment seems to fall in the “It was Trump” school. The Southern Strategy, macaca, Reagan at Philadelphia Mississippi, and a thousand other examples predate Trump.

    I bring this up not to criticize this particular comment, but to point out that this issue drives a lot of disagreement in OTB comments. A recent example is the appropriatness of criticism of McCain. Many of us, OK, at least me, feel it is dangerous to maintain the myth of responsible Republicans. As Kevin Drum put it, GOPus delendus est.

    Well, let’s talk about this. For many decades the Republican Party built its brand by appealing to white Southerners who had left the Democratic Party after the Civil Rights Era. However, the GOP’s appeal to whites inevitably became more muted as times changed and overt racism became less and less acceptable. Finally, when Mitt Romney lost in 2012, the party wrote a post-mortem that admitted they’d taken things as far as they could. The white vote was tapped out, and if they wanted to get to 51 percent in the future they needed to dial back on the racial appeals and instead learn how to attract Asians and Hispanics who were natural constituencies for a fiscally conservative, church-friendly party.
    I cheered. But only for a few days. A year earlier the party had fired its first black chairman, and in 2012 they tossed their post-mortem into the dustbin almost as soon as the ink was dry. Then it nominated Donald Trump for president on a platform so viciously racist and bigoted it was like watching an old Ken Burns documentary.

    DeSantis remark was probably scripted, and he’d have said it five years ago.

    11
    1
  29. Andre Kenji de Sousa says:

    Using any word that resembles “monkeys” when you are talking about Blacks is poor taste, at best. At best deSantis opened mouth and inserted his foot there, at it’s worst he was appealing to racists.

    4
    2
  30. MarkedMan says:

    @Michael Reynolds: By the way, has anyone ever seen Pearce and George in the same room together?

    1
    2
  31. SenyorDave says:

    I don’t think it was scripted, I think this guy thinks like this. BTW, DiSantis is the one who used his toddler child in a truly vile campaign ad that set a new low for kissing Trump’s ass. At one point he uses a child’s building block set to build a mock wall. I was actually surprised he didn’t describe in detail that it would help keep out those yucky brown people.

    5
    1
  32. the Q says:

    Mayor Gillum responded today with “I forgive my penis challenged opponent and Trump worshipper for an errant slip of the tongue. I will just say that his wife did not commit this same errant slip of her tongue as she very definitely meant to fellate me a few weeks ago, complaining of orgasm issues with her small hands husband.”

    When the DeSantis campaign objected, Gillum’s spokesperson replied, “he was obviously talking about Florida not making the same wrong decision to embrace the little dick policies of Ron DeSantis as his wife did.

    To characterize it as anything else is absurd.”

    4
    6
  33. An Interested Party says:

    …people are always quick to believe the worst of their opponent’s intentions towards themselves (ie to believe they are going to be personally under attack if the other side gains power).

    I’m sure things are just peachy in Canada, but in this country, if you are, say, a sexual minority, you are personally under attack if Republicans gain political power, that isn’t merely some belief…

    2
    1
  34. TM01 says:

    Gillum, who is running for governor, returned a $10,000 campaign donation from Governance Services.

    “After reading today’s reporting we decided to return their check,” campaign spokesman Geoff Burgan said. “Tallahassee needs to move forward, as do we, from this unfortunate situation.”

    At last week’s City Hall meeting, Gillum referred to the investigation as a monkey on the commission’s back that derailed a move to hire Deputy Attorney Cassandra Jackson as City Attorney.

    I suppose the obvious question then is: What was Gillum doing on the commission’s back?

    Gods but you people are stupid.

    https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/05/commissioners-shocked-fbi-warrant-two-say-scott-maddox-should-consider-stepping-down/308855002/

    1
    16
  35. Stormy Dragon says:

    @george:

    Not all GOP’ers are white supremacists.

    Some are just willing to vote for white supremacists as long as there’s a tax cut in it for them.

    14
    1
  36. Kylopod says:

    @MarkedMan:

    By the way, has anyone ever seen Pearce and George in the same room together?

    I know you’re being snarky, but it brings up something I’ve wanted to get off my chest for a while. I now think there’s a distinct possibility Jenos and MBunge are the same person. It’s not something that would have occurred to me until very recently. For years, MBunge came off as little more than a slightly ornery, anti-Clinton Democrat, until 2016 when he unexpectedly morphed into a pro-Trump troll. Jenos, by contrast, was a commenter whose shtick was always to collect globs of talking points from right-wing sites and spew them, Gish Gallop style, hoping to overwhelm us with their volume. His style is so unmistakable that most of us can spot it immediately no matter what name he uses.

    But a few months ago I brought up a Bung comment from 2016 (a defense of Trump on the Access Hollywood tape), and Jenos, commenting under the name Bob the Arqubusier (for his “Jenos” handle had been banned), responded as if he himself had made the comment–even though I had explicitly said Bung had made it, and I have no recollection of Jenos making any similar comment around that time. I immediately pointed this discrepancy out to Jenos, but (as usual) he ignored me. Take a look (it’s about halfway through his comment):

    https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/to-ban-or-not-to-ban/#comment-2288427

    6
    1
  37. george says:

    @An Interested Party:

    I’m sure things are just peachy in Canada, but in this country, if you are, say, a sexual minority, you are personally under attack if Republicans gain political power, that isn’t merely some belief…

    From what I remember of what it was like when I was living in America (not that long ago), as a minority we were under attack no matter who was in power. Same in Canada. Which is the whole idea behind the idea of first nations – many feel the only way to improve things is to become our own nation. Hard in North America for obvious reasons, and I don’t see it happening – and even if it did, we have enough internal conflicts that life would never be peachy … maybe peachy is an impossible state for humans.

    However, what whites thought of us wasn’t even close to a major factor in how I or anyone I knew voted – we minorities have our own issues and politics, our worlds didn’t revolve around white peoples’ opinions of us, and its pretty patronizing (to say the least) to think it should.

  38. george says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    Some are just willing to vote for white supremacists as long as there’s a tax cut in it for them.

    For many minorities whether or not someone is a white supremacist isn’t a defining issue (possibly because many think that describes just about every white). So long as the racism isn’t explicitly put into laws then its a question of individual reactions; the world really doesn’t revolve around what white people think.

  39. Tyrell says:

    The term “monkey” has been used in different contexts. I remember when I worked in the construction field, a common term was “don’t monkey around” meaning don’t play around. Also, “quit monkeying around with it, finish it up”. And this was around some tough workers, many were black. No one complained. Of course, I heard many a curse word fly at those job sites.
    Has it gotten to the point where just about any word can be ruled as offensive to someone? I had never heard of the word monkey having some racist connotation to it until the last few years.
    What I do not understand is that these rap and rock stars can use the “n” word and hardly no one says a thing about it. That seems like a double standard to me.
    How about the term “stuck his foot in his mouth”. That seems disgusting and degrading to me. Where is my “explanation” or apology?

    1
    14
  40. James Pearce says:

    @MarkedMan:

    By the way, has anyone ever seen Pearce and George in the same room together?

    I would consider it an honor to be mistaken for George in any room, but alas we’re two different people. This is how you tell us apart:

    He’s better looking.

    4
    2
  41. An Interested Party says:

    @george: You will notice that I specifically mentioned sexual minorities…compared to many parts of the United States, Canada would be just peachy for those folks…and while I’m sure there are Democrats who are still uncomfortable with sexual minorities, it is Republicans who are actively trying to make life harder for them…

  42. MarkedMan says:

    @Kylopod: Excellent detective work! I can’t even get inside the head of someone who creates sock puppets just to find someone who agrees with them…

    2
    1
  43. DefinitelyNotMarkedMan’sSockPuppet says:

    @MarkedMan: @MarkedMan: Well said, MarkedMan!

  44. MarkedMan says:

    Can someone check the mod queue?

  45. Warren Weber says:

    @Kylopod: Wow, he’s just like Savoire Faire, isn’t he? He’s EVERYWHERE!!!!!

    And since I was so graciously invited to comment, let me offer a few observations.

    1) Funny how all the people here keep hearing these “dog whistles,” which — as I understand the term — are supposed to pass right by you and only be noticed by the “right” people. Here’s a thought: if you keep hearing these “dog whistles,” maybe you’re the dogs.

    2) Idle curiosity: how many people here complaining about “racism” and “white supremacy” are actually themselves white? Do I detect a bit of “white knighting” going on? A bit of cultural appropriation and victim-borrowing going on?

    3) You were talking about “He-who-must-not-be-named,” among others, and surprised when someone you think is The Evil One responds?

    4) To expand upon point 2, I’m noticing a LOT of “victimization-by-proxy” going on these days among the Lunatic Left (which is really redundant, especially around here). I really learn a LOT when I’m lectured about subtle forms of racism by a bunch of white people, just like I learn so much about the travails of the trans community by… well, the same group of cis white people. And instead of seeing how Confederates were treated by those who faced them on the battlefield, who were wounded and watched their brothers killed by them, I learn so much more from… well, that very same group of cis white people.

    5) If you’re looking for some recent example of blatant racism, the New York Times just hired a raving racist for their editorial board. But since Sarah Jeong is A) female, B) Asian, and C) virulently anti-white, that makes it OK, right?

    6) I dunno how the hell it happened, but someone actually pulled a “racist dog whistle” dumber than this one. CNN’s Jeffrey Toobin says Trump’s criticism of the “AntiFa” fascists is racist, because AntiFa is “widely perceived as an African American organization.” AntiFa is whiter than the Huffington Post, whiter than Media Matters, whiter than Salon, whiter than the commentariat here. I heard someone describe AntiFa as “whiter than a mayonnaise sandwich on Wonder Bread made by Pat Boone.”

    4
    17
  46. Moosebreath says:

    @James Pearce:

    “He’s better looking.”

    On the internet, no one knows whether you’re a dog.

  47. Bill says:

    @Warren Weber: AntiFa is whiter than the Huffington Post, whiter than Media Matters, whiter than Salon, whiter th

    an the commentariat here. I heard someone describe AntiFa as “whiter than a mayonnaise sandwich on Wonder Bread made by Pat Boone.”

    That reminds me of an episode of the Munsters. Herman wants to make Lily jealous and Grandpa has various magic pills. One was Richard Burton. Another was Pat Boone. Grandpa throws it away saying ‘How did that get here?’

    Herman and Grandpa settle on a Texas playboy pill. Grandpa described it as= 10% chemical, the rest baloney.

  48. Kylopod says:

    @Warren Weber:

    Wow, he’s just like Savoire Faire, isn’t he? He’s EVERYWHERE!!!!!

    Pretty much the textbook response from trolls being outed for adopting multiple identities. Instead of addressing the charges, they resort to (witless) sarcasm as if to suggest that something which happens routinely on the Internet is the most ridiculous accusation imaginable.

    I wasn’t even certain of the Jenos/MBunge connection until now. You aren’t helping dispel the suspicions.

    15
    1
  49. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Warren Weber: Ya know, I hadn’t even given a thought to the who was a sock puppet of whose sub thread. Then you showed up. Hmmmm…

    CLICK

  50. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @george: You give them WAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY too much credit. Occams razor: the simplest solution tends to be the right one. The simplest solution here is he’s a racist POS. Monkey wrench? Yes. Throw a “monkey into it”? That is 3 or 4 mental gyrations further down the Southern Pride road.

    2
    2
  51. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @TM01:

    because now it’s acceptable to punch a Nazi.

    Just for the record, it has been acceptable to punch a Nazi since before 1939.

    16
    3
  52. OzarkHillbilly says:
  53. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @george:

    Not all GOP’ers are white supremacists.

    2 years ago you could say that. The GOP is now the party of trump. trump is a racist. That makes them all, if not a racist, OK with a racist in the WH. To which I say, “What’s the difference?” If using racism for your political party’s benefit isn’t racist, then WTF planet are you living on????

    7
    2
  54. Warren Weber says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: I’ve grown a lot less patient with lunacy in the past year or so. Five NSTEMIs since December and a Medtronic gadget stuffed into my left pecs do a pretty good job of reassessing your priorities.

    I was bored and saw this thread, figured I’d get some laughs at more imbecilic cries of RAAAAACISTS!!!!11!! And this episode of BattleBots is a repeat — the new one starts in 5 minutes.

    BTW, MBunge has a lot more patience than I have now.

    1
    13
  55. Jim Brown 32 says:

    Being a racist obviously doesn’t have the same connotation that is used to–e.g Trump. Black people really don’t give a damn because most white people are prejudiced at the very least anyway.

    You won’t damage Trump Republicans with “racist” lines of attack. You damage them by making them making look weak, emasculated, and or feminine. Leave the Monkey comment where it is and start dismantling this clown. This should be easy.

  56. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @TM01: A “monkey on my back” is a saying older than my 60 years. “Monkey it up”? First time for me. Of course, around here the phrase is “ni**er rig” it. I’m sure there are no racial correlations or anything.

    1
    2
  57. Warren Weber says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Just for the record, it has been acceptable to punch a Nazi since before 1939.

    All you have to do is convince yourself that anyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi.

    The secret? Just keeping yelling “NAZI!!!!!” over and over and over again. You know, the Big Lie Theory.

    I wish I could remember who came up with that tactic…

    2
    8
  58. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Tyrell:

    I remember when I worked in the construction field,

    I was a union carpenter for 35+ years. NOTHING in this comment comes even close to my experience. And this is me trying really hard to not say you are full of shit. Because I suppose, it just might be possible, that you spent 3 weeks working construction in some liberal nirvana.

    But not any job site I ever worked on.

  59. Warren Weber says:

    @Tyrell: You’re dealing with people who have weaponized offense. They are bound and determined to find offense in anything, purely for the tactical advantage it gives them.

    When they’re that incentivized to find offense, they will find it. There’s no stretch that’s too far.

    2
    9
  60. matt bernius says:

    @Kylopod:
    BTW, going on thier gravatars and posting style, I am all but sure that “Lava Land” and “One American” are the same person.

    Oh, gravatars, it’s a wonky system, but it helps out sockpuppet accounts (as has happened to Jenos a few times).

    5
    1
  61. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Warren Weber: “Ohhh the world is so mean to me, why do they keep attacking me for saying fascist things?” or are you working some other “I’m just a victim” angle?

    6
    1
  62. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Warren Weber: And you have weaponized victimhood. “Everybody is against me!!!” Pobrecito….

  63. Warren Weber says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: If you had the slightest sense of history, you’d have no choice but to recognize that the most fascist force in today’s American politics is your allies in AntiFa.

    And just what kind of self-respecting white supremacist fascist is as proud of his Jewish relatives and as much as an unrepentant Zionist as Trump, anyway?

    Nothing says “fascist” as much as recognizing Israel’s capitol, moving the embassy, and telling the Palestinians to go pound sand as long as they keep insisting on finishing the Final Solution. Or, rather, demanding that others do it for them.

    BTW, even Real Clear Politics has realized it can’t pretend that the whole Russia Collusion fantasy — especially that infamous Trump Tower meeting — was a setup put together by the Hillary campaign, in collusion with Russians. How long do you intend to keep your head in the sand over that one?

    1
    11
  64. Warren Weber says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    And you have weaponized victimhood. “Everybody is against me!!!”

    Around here, that just happens to be true. I just don’t give a crap any more. I’ve decided to counter it with apathy and amusement — I just flip a coin to decide which at any particular time.

    1
    5
  65. Michael Reynolds says:

    @george:
    George, the Republican Party is a white supremacist party. Period. You think a tiny black vote somehow outweighs the 90+ who knew enough to vote against him? Are you still really having a problem accepting this?

    Does that mean 100% of people who voted for Trump are racists, no, and I never said they were. I don’t think 100% of people who voted for Hitler hated Jews. That’s an absurd standard. This is not Sodom, it takes more than one righteous (if misguided) man to save the city.

    6
    3
  66. Warren Weber says:

    @Michael Reynolds: And where would we be without rich, ultra-privileged white men like you to tell us these important things?

    Thank you for taking on the White Man’s Burden here on behalf of so many…

    1
    12
  67. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Warren Weber: I really don’t think anyone could be as stupid as you are pretending to be. You have left me at a bit of a loss for words with that GlenBeckiasan stream of consciousness.

    BTW, even Real Clear Politics has realized it can’t pretend that the whole Russia Collusion fantasy — especially that infamous Trump Tower meeting — was a setup put together by the Hillary campaign, in collusion with Russians.

    I really am puzzling as to what point you are trying to make here. I mean, are you actually saying that the trumpsters obviously colluded with Russia? Really? Or is English not just your second but maybe your 3rd or 4th language?

    Anyway, long past my dinner time.

    8
    1
  68. Warren Weber says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: You could just read the article, but that might tax your limited attention span. So let me see if I can sum it up for you.

    Trump Jr. had a meeting with a Russian lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, who had promised to deliver “dirt” on Hillary from Russia. Instead, she spent all her time lobbying for Putin buddies suffering under US sanctions until Trump Jr. got fed up and walked out. This is considered the linchpin of the “Russian collusion” fantasy.

    Here are a bunch of facts that the people around here are bound and determined to pretend don’t exist.

    1) Natalia was initially denied a visa to come to the US, but that was overturned by Obama administration officials who made sure she could come to the US.

    2) Immediately before the meeting, Natalia met with Glenn Simpson, founder and CEO of Fusion GPS, the opposition research firm hired by Hillary to dig up dirt on Trump from Russia.

    3) Immediately after the meeting, Natalia and Glenn met again.

    4) Fusion GPS’ top Russian expert was/is Nellie Ohr, wife of former Justice Dept. top official Bruce Ohr.

    5) Bruce Ohr didn’t bother to report his wife’s outside employment, as was legally required — especially when it was so closely tied to investigations he was overseeing.

    6) Hillary and the DNC hired Fusion GPS through a legal firm that was used to disguise the relationship, with Perkins Coie fraudulently billing them for “legal services.”

    7) Fusion GPS hired a foreign national (Christopher Steele) to interfere with the US election, and then paid him to collude with Russia to come up with his infamous “dossier” of bogus dirt on Trump.

    8) After the FBI fired Steele for violating their rules, Ohr obtained a copy of his dossier (presumably through his wife) and kept trying to pass it off to other officials in the Justice Department.

    9) One of the reasons why Steele was fired by the FBI was because of his role in obtaining a fraudulent FISA warrant against Trump officials. They cited two sources in the FISA application — Steele, and a Yahoo News article. It turns out that the Yahoo News article was entirely dependent on a single source — Christopher Steele.

    That’s just the highlights. I’d say “read the rest yourself,” but I know how you Special Snowflakes can’t abide anything that threatens your own special version of reality, and you need all your energy to pretend that articles like that don’t exist.

    3
    13
  69. Warren Weber says:

    Sorry, Bronco is about to take on SawBlaze, and that really deserves my attention more than this lot. And then it’s bed.

    My money’s on Bronco, but SawBlaze could pull off another upset…

    1
    4
  70. Andre Kenji de Sousa says:

    @Warren Weber:

    If you had the slightest sense of history, you’d have no choice but to recognize that the most fascist force in today’s American politics is your allies in AntiFa.

    The best explainer about Antifa is this video from the TV Show The Opposition with Jordan Klepper:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhfhOINUS10

  71. Warren Weber says:

    BTW, it was Bronco by a decision, but it was a lot closer than I thought it would be. Bronco dominated, but took its own share of damage.

    1
    4
  72. Hal_10000 says:

    I’d be willing to give DeSantis the benefit of a doubt here because it’s fairly easy, when speaking off the cuff, to say something bad. There are so many rhetorical and cultural landmines in our language that it’s easy to accidentally step on one.

    Buuuut … the defensiveness afterward is a problem. Most people would quickly recognize why that phrase — even if uttered innocently — would offend some people and back off.

    12
  73. Warren Weber says:

    @Andre Kenji de Sousa: The second best explanation I’ve seen of AntiFa is “the best way we know to show how anti-fascist we are is to dress up in black, put on masks, and go beat the crap out of those who we disagree with. And if that isn’t enough, we’ll also attack any cops who try to stop us and any reporters who try to document what we do.”

    The best analysis was from FrankJ of imao.us: “The race war is being fought between two small, angry, violent groups of white people.”

  74. Kylopod says:

    @Warren Weber:

    And just what kind of self-respecting white supremacist fascist is as proud of his Jewish relatives and as much as an unrepentant Zionist as Trump, anyway?

    He’s also the guy who retweeted a graphic of “Crooked Hillary” and a Star of David atop a pile of cash, told the RJC that “I’m a negotiator like you folks,” and once during an online feud with Jon Stewart started calling Stewart by his real surname Liebowitz (hint hint).

    But never mind all that. Let’s concede, for the sake of argument, that Trump is not anti-Semitic. Jews are not the one and only target of white supremacists, and these days they probably aren’t the main one. One of the leading white nationalists in the United States today, Jared Taylor, has said he has no problem with “European Jews” and has hosted Jewish speakers at his American Renaissance conference. Does that make him not a white nationalist or white supremacist?

    The fact is that even white supremacy has evolved and has become more willing to accept as “white” certain groups it previously disparaged. In the 1970s David Duke became the Grand Wizard for a Klan group that was open to Catholics. Does that mean he wasn’t really a Klansman? Please.

    And there’s no rule that white supremacists are always consistent about whom they hate. They’ll form alliances with groups they regard as inferior, when they believe it’s in their interests. Hitler built an alliance with the Japanese and even dubbed them “honorary Aryans.” Does that mean he wasn’t a racist who viewed Northern Europeans as being at the top of the food chain?

    16
  75. Kylopod says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    I don’t think 100% of people who voted for Hitler hated Jews.

    There were even Jewish supporters of Hitler.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

  76. Andre Kenji de Sousa says:

    @Warren Weber: I know a lot of these far-left people. There are some of them that might engage in violence, but they don’t manage to create a level of organization required to wage a “race war” or some stupidity like that.

    The Judea Liberation Front Groups from the movie Life of Brian were inspired in the trotskytes from the 70’s, that are basically the predecessors of these antifa groups.

  77. Andre Kenji de Sousa says:

    @Warren Weber:

    And just what kind of self-respecting white supremacist fascist is as proud of his Jewish relatives and as much as an unrepentant Zionist as Trump, anyway?

    Many, but many White Supremacists are supporters of Israel because they see Israel as a colonial power that oppresses Brown people.

    3
    1
  78. dennis says:

    @James Joyner:

    We mostly consider a comment such as that as thoughtless, more than racist. “That’s just how White folks are.” This, though, has been going on long before Trump. It was around 2006 that I began distancing myself from the Townhall.com’ers, and, by the time Obama rolled onto the scene full stop, I was completely done. Not that I jumped on any Democratic bandwagons, mind you . . .

  79. Bob@Youngstown says:

    @Tyrell:

    I had never heard of the word monkey having some racist connotation to it until the last few years.

    Have you been 1) living under a rock or, 2) four years old?

    10
  80. Kari Q says:

    @george:

    For a start about 10% of blacks voted for Trump

    I know one of them. He comes out with some of the most racist b.s. about black women I’ve ever heard. It has created a dilemma for me. I keep asking myself “If he was white, would I remain friends with someone this racist?” I don’t know. I’ve known since our ages were in the single digits, so I give us the benefit of the doubt here, but I’m no where near as close to him as I was before I heard him say that.

  81. Kylopod says:

    @Kari Q: I’ve known a couple of Latino Trump supporters who hold racist views about other Latino groups.

  82. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Kylopod: It’s the strength of Trump combined with the ideology–he brings out the worst in everyone. ETTD

    3
    1
  83. Warren Weber says:

    @Kylopod: Yeah, calling people by their legal/ancestral name is pretty racist, and President Drumpf should know better.

    I’ve said for a long time that the evidence that Trump is some kind of racist is incredibly weak. What he is, is a Trump supremacist. He thinks he’s better than most everyone else, and is an equal-opportunity offender. Further, he’s an equal-opportunity counterpuncher. I don’t recall him ever attacking anyone who didn’t attack him first. Most of the whining about Trump’s attacks sound an awful lot like children crying “it all started when he hit me back!”

    Take, for example, Trump’s “war against the press,” which pretty much consists of “Trump said mean things about reporters.” Meanwhile, what has CNN been up to?

    — When some anonymous Reddit user made a GIF that mocked them, they tracked him down, identified him, and told him they’d keep his identity a secret — as long as he publicly apologized to them and didn’t make fun of them again.

    — Tracked down an elderly woman who had some kind of contact with a Russian Facebook group that commented on the election and confronted her on the air, essentially accusing her on international TV of being a Russian stooge.

    — Assigned one of their people (Oliver Darcy) to the full-time task of getting Alex Jones kicked off of every social media and tech platform they could

    That’s an interesting role for a member of the press to carve out for itself — deciding who does and who does not get to exercise their rights to speak freely, and who deserves to be hounded doxxed and hounded off their soapbox.

    16
  84. James Joyner says:

    @Warren Weber:

    BTW, even Real Clear Politics has realized it can’t pretend that the whole Russia Collusion fantasy — especially that infamous Trump Tower meeting — was a setup put together by the Hillary campaign, in collusion with Russians.

    1. Aside from that not making any sense whatsoever, you do realize RCP is and always has been a Republican-leaning site, right?

    2. Is your life really so empty that you have to show up here under constantly-changing aliases even after having been repeatedly told you’re not welcome here?

    27
  85. TM01 says:

    It amazes me how many people, upon hearing the word “monkey,” immediately think of black people.

    But everyone else is racist.

    1
    12
  86. TM01 says:

    I also think we need a modification of Godwin’s law. Something about the probability of bringing up Russia in any discussion approaching 1.

  87. TM01 says:

    And here’s Obama saying both parties have monkeyed around with elections.

    https://youtu.be/n-3_l5iWTP0

    You know, this is partially Why Trump Won. In that Rational World you pine for people would just understand that “monkey” is a commonly used word and no one would be so petty and ignorant as to fabricate a controversy over it and waste a whole news cycle with it.

    But no.

    You’ve created a world where literally everything is somehow racist, as long as it’s said or done by people with whom you disagree.

    YOU have created this irrational world.

    3
    7
  88. george says:

    @MarkedMan:

    I’m afraid it goes beyond that – there’s just you and one person pretending to be everyone else you encounter on this forum.

    Here’s a pretty simple test. Take some paragraph long samples of the ‘George’ persona’s writing, and some samples of the ‘Pierce’ persona writing, and put them through a writing analysis program like http://www.analyzemywriting.com/. If the counts are markedly different that doesn’t prove that ‘George’ and ‘Pierce’ are different people, but it’ll show that if the same person he/she/it has amazing mental flexibility and/or multiple personality disorder.

    2
    1
  89. george says:

    @Kari Q:

    Minorities are human, and individuals have all the flaws you find in every other group. I don’t think you’ll find anyone who doesn’t think that every race has prejudiced members, the debate about non-white racism is basically semantic (ie does racism refer only to systematic prejudice or does it include individual prejudice … if only systematic then in America only whites can be racist, otherwise anyone can be racist).

    However, many minorities are so used to implicit racism that its not a disqualifying element in a politician, simply because just about every politician out there has it (even the ones who pretend they don’t – look at Hilary Clinton’s reaction to Obama in 2008). Again, it says something about whites when they think the primary criteria for minorities in voting should be the beliefs of what some white people thinks about them. We have our own issues, for most of us the thing that impacts us most strongly in our day to day lives is economic (look at poverty rates to understand that), not racial slurs.

    Racial slurs have always been there no matter who is elected – does anyone really think they started, or even became noticeably worse under Trump? They’ve always been there, white people just filtered them out.

    Trump is a disaster because of what he’s doing to the economy and the supreme court, the GOP is a disaster because they’re going backwards on probably the single most important issue that affects our lives – public healthcare. All the other bad things – police killing minorities at three times the rate they kill whites (a rate which is itself ten times higher than in any other developed country – wtf, why do whites in America put up with that, no other country in the world would think its normal for a cop to execute someone crawling down a hallway begging for his life) – all those things started long before Trump, and even long before any current party was even formed.

  90. george says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Does that mean 100% of people who voted for Trump are racists, no, and I never said they were. I don’t think 100% of people who voted for Hitler hated Jews. That’s an absurd standard. This is not Sodom, it takes more than one righteous (if misguided) man to save the city.

    I agree the GOP is racist. In my experience the Democratic Party is too, though not nearly as bad (though some of the stuff done on Indian Reservations by Democratic governments is identical to GOP policy – in politics racism is most importantly expressed in legislation, not in nice words). But you have frequently made the blanket statement that everyone who voted for Trump is a racist – look through some of your old posts. You may have been using poetic license (and given your occupation you could make a strong case that you have a professional right to do so), but its clearly there.

    You’ve probably noticed I tend to be pretty far to the left of the Democrats (I tend to the NDP, the most leftish party in Canada, and even the Canadian Conservative Party is left of the Democrats on many important issues), so I think the Republicans are a disaster. But I don’t automatically assume everyone in a group is the same, or does any given action for the identical reason – you can probably understand why minorities tend to find that an extremely dangerous assumption, one that in the end always comes back to hurt us. Moreover, I personally know people who voted for Trump who aren’t racist (well, some are pretty angry at whites) – they may be a statistical blip to you, but if one in six indigenous people voted for Trump that means one in six of my family members and a good percentage of my close friends did so as well. That’s not statics, that’s people I care about, and understanding why they did so is more important to me than making political points.

  91. grumpy realist says:

    @george: Mmmm, let’s just say that people who earlier would have been more silent with racial comments in public now don’t feel the same pressure to self-police.

    (Either that, or there’s more lead in the water. A lot of the instances I’ve seen reported over at RawStory seem to come from people who are walking stereotypes of the addled Walmart obese older individual with no class and a chip a mile high on his/her shoulder.)

    1
    1
  92. HarvardLaw92 says:

    OT: Don McGahn (White House Counsel) will be leaving the White House shortly.

    2
    2
  93. Tyrell says:

    @george: “pretty far left of the Democrats” – and that’s pretty far – like being in the pit road at Daytona.
    The people are not going to buy the Democrats message of socialism, guaranteed income, 80% tax rate, “No ICE, no borders, no nations” nonsense.
    The Democrat party needs to return to the centrist – conservative party it used to be in the days of Truman, Johnson, Humphrey, Russell, Connally, Ervin, Fulbrigbt, Mills, and Mansfield.
    Most Democrats are common sense centrists, not socialists.

    1
    9
  94. Kylopod says:

    @Warren Weber:

    Yeah, calling people by their legal/ancestral name is pretty racist, and President Drumpf should know better.

    Since when was Leibowitz a weird, funny-sounding name like “Drumpf”? It’s just a common generic Jewish name, the way Gonzalez is for Hispanics or Williams is for WASPs. What purpose is there for making a mocking reference to it except to mock his ethnicity?

    He thinks he’s better than most everyone else, and is an equal-opportunity offender.

    Remind me of the last time he mocked someone for their whiteness.

    7
    1
  95. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @TM01:

    In a rational world, he would apologize and that would be it. But the Left isn’t rational and there will be much wailing, gnashing of teeth, and screaming at the sky because of this, because now it’s acceptable to punch a Nazi.

    I believe that you are trying to make a point of the loss of polite discourse.

    However, if you are saying that an example of that is that we should tolerate and accept Nazis, then I believe you may have lost sight of what it means to be American.

    An American should always be proud to punch a Nazi.

    An American should be proud to remove a confederate flag.

    An American should be proud to support the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and to vehemently oppose those who wish to usurp those standards.

    For whatever reason, the ugly underbelly of the population feels emboldened in the past 4 years, likely due to the development of the echo chamber effect. While Nazi protests and expressions of their beliefs are something that can be tolerated by our government (due to the first amendment) it is not something that needs or will be tolerated by individuals or corporations.

    Public shaming and yes, even a good solid punch is acceptable.

    10
    3
  96. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @Tyrell:

    The Democrat party needs to return to the centrist – conservative party it used to be in the days of Truman, Johnson, Humphrey, Russell, Connally, Ervin, Fulbrigbt, Mills, and Mansfield.

    Action / reaction…

    Likely that will happen as soon as the GOP returns to the centrist – conservative party it used to be in the days of Eisenhower. (A guy that had no problem punching a Nazi, by the way.)

    Still, I would say that the current Democratic party has far less distance to being Centrist, that the current GOTrump party.

    5
    1
  97. Daryl and his brother Darryl says:

    @James Joyner:

    2. Is your life really so empty that you have to show up here under constantly-changing aliases even after having been repeatedly told you’re not welcome here?

    Thank you for that, James.

    11
    1
  98. Kathy says:

    We can judge the remark to have been not just racist but also rather damaging, by the number of deplorables the response to it riled up, not to mention their vehemence, attempts at misdirection, drawing of false equivalencies, and not least the splitting of ever finer semantic hairs out of context.

    2
    2
  99. Andre Kenji de Sousa says:

    @TM01:

    It amazes me how many people, upon hearing the word “monkey,” immediately think of black people.

    My girlfriend is Black. She has a (Black) cousin that can’t stand any image of monkeys – even if it’s a stuffed animal or a cartoon. There is a clear association here.

    1
    3
  100. Mikey says:

    @TM01:

    It amazes me how many people, upon hearing the word “monkey,” immediately think of black people.

    Oh, stop with this context-dropping bullshit. DeSantis didn’t just randomly say the word “monkey” while standing in his living room.

    3
    3
  101. george says:

    @grumpy realist:

    You might see it more in the news, or on the Internet. Trust me, it hasn’t changed what you hear in personal life; the people who call you racist things are the same ones who were doing it before, and they’re saying the same things they said before. I can’t think of a single individual who suddenly became openly racist since Trump was elected – they were openly racist from day one.

  102. Leonard says:

    @Andre Kenji de Sousa: Best explanation I’ve seen of Antifa came from Andrew Klavan, who said that the word “antifa” comes from “fa”, which means fascist, and “anti”, which in this case means nothing at all.

  103. tm01 says:

    An American should always be proud to punch a Nazi.

    An American should be proud to support the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and to vehemently oppose those who wish to usurp those standards.

    Yeah Constitution! Love that First Amendment!

    What’s that? A little conservative Jewish man wants to give a speech at a public university?!?

    Let’s go punch that Nazi!!

    3
    4
  104. tm01 says:

    While any comment deemed abusive or offensive may be deleted without warning or appeal by the post author, the following will almost always be deleted:

    Comments that are completely off topic.

    @HarvardLaw92:

    OT: Don McGahn (White House Counsel) will be leaving the White House shortly.

    Ok then.

    3
    4
  105. Gustopher says:

    Well, DeSantis has had a day or so to respond, and at no point has he apologized, has he? He has claimed it had nothing to do with race, but anyone with an above room temperature IQ can tell it has to do with race — the only question being whether it was intentional or not.

    A normal person, upon discovering that they inadvertently stumbled onto a racist phrasing, would apologize. A “woah, that was racist, but I didn’t mean it that way” apology.

    The only reason not to do so is because you did it deliberately, because you really wanted to call him a “n*gger” but you know you can’t.

    This isn’t a dog-whistle, as dog-whistles are meant to not be heard. There’s no secret message there to send anyway — it’s pretty clear that Gillum is black so there’s no reason to point that out, and anyone who wasn’t going to vote for him because he’s black had already made up their mind. The racist dog-whistles are generally meant to point out that a white politician is supported by people who are not lily white.

    But this is just racist virtue signaling. This is just DeSantis saying “wasn’t it great when we could call a spade a space?”

    He can’t give the “woah, that that unexpectedly racist, I didn’t mean it that way” apology, because what he wants to appeal to those who mostly just want to go back to a time where they will be able to call black folks “n*gger”

  106. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @tm01:

    What’s that? A little conservative Jewish man wants to give a speech at a public university?!?

    Let’s go punch that Nazi!!

    Clearly, you are attempting to redefine terms here. Considering what appears to be fascist and nationalist tendencies on your part, one would think what that you would know what a Nazi is.

    Now if that little Jewish man at the library was one that was suggesting that all Asians be brutally exterminated, and threatened Asians (or Moroccans, or fill-in-the-blank) and there were linked examples of those who follow that person’s teaching murdering and abusing those minorities, then dammed strait I would punch that person.

    And likely I would go to jail. But that would be my expression of supporting America.

    And do us all a favor and quit upvoting yourself three times… it’s embarrassing.

    9
    2
  107. Kari Q says:

    @Tyrell:

    The Democrat party needs to return to the centrist – conservative party it used to be in the days of Truman, Johnson, Humphrey, Russell, Connally, Ervin, Fulbrigbt, Mills, and Mansfield.

    Truman was a “centrist-conservative?” Wow, does this show how little you know about policies of politicians past or present.

    Truman on national health care: “The fact is, however, that most of our people cannot afford to pay for the care they need. I have often & strongly urged that this condition demands a national health program. The heart of the program must be a national system of payment for medical care based on well-tried insurance principles. This great nation cannot afford to allow its citizens to suffer needlessly from the lack of proper medical care.”

    “The low-income group particularly is being pressed very hard by the high cost of living. To this group a tax adjustment would result in a saving that could be used to buy the necessities of life. … It is estimated that such a tax credit would reduce Federal revenue by $3.2 billion. This reduction should be made up by increasing the tax on corporate profits in an amount that will produce this sum.” (my emphasis)

    Truman was the actual most liberal president in U.S. history. To the left of FDR, and far to the left of Obama on everything except gay rights (but that’s a function of the time). He even endorsed the idea of the ERA.

    This is to say nothing of the laughable idea that Johnson and Humphrey were “centrist conservatives.” I’m sure they would find that amusing.

    6
    1
  108. Warren Weber says:

    Hey, here’s a whole collection of video clips of Democrats saying “monkeying around.” https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2018/08/30/flashback-heres-a-bunch-of-democrats-saying-monkeying-around-n2514415

    @James Joyner: I’ve considered, several times, doing just that. But then I realized that I would literally be the only one who was respecting the rules. I can list plenty of commentators who have violated them without a hint of a sanction, and several authors here who let those violations pass without a hint of disapproval.

    So, basically, I’m blaming peer pressure and the neurotic need to fit in. I don’t wanna be the nerd who’s the only one who follows the rules and goes running to tattle when others act up. I wanna be a rebellious cool kid too.

    2
    5
  109. Grewgills says:

    @Warren Weber:
    The owner of the site and the others who operate the site have repeatedly asked you to leave, going so far as to ban some of your aliases. Why do you continue to be the rude kid that keeps pushing his way in where he is not wanted? It doesn’t make you cool and rebellious. It makes you rude.
    No matter how much you complain about other people not receiving the same sanction as you it still makes you rude and unwanted. Why do you keep making up new names to sneak in where you are so obviously not wanted?

    6
    2
  110. An Interested Party says:

    But then I realized that I would literally be the only one who was respecting the rules. I can list plenty of commentators who have violated them without a hint of a sanction, and several authors here who let those violations pass without a hint of disapproval.

    Awwww…you poor victim…it’s bad enough to have so many health problems, it’s bad enough that you have no life so you constantly return here under different aliases, but now this too…it must be so hard to be you…

    5
    1
  111. Bruce Henry says:

    So here’s Jenos I mean Jay Tea I mean Warren and his friends TM01 and Pearce pretending that using the term “monkey it up” (not an actual idiom like “monkey around,” btw) to describe what might happen to FL if a black man becomes governor COULD NOT POSSIBLY be viewed as racist. Except by you and I, libtards all, see, because we are the FOR REAL racists for noticing this white guy with a history of moderating FB groups full of Nazis and neo-Confederates said “monkey,” and why do our libtard minds AUTOMATICALLY think “black people” when a guy like that says “monkey,” HENGHH???

    The transparent insincerity of these f*ckers, the desperate wishful thinking that they have a GOTCHA…damn it has gotten old.

    5
    2
  112. TM01 says:

    If A Monkey Takes A Selfie, Who Owns The Copyright?

    Oh, Doug.

    I’m not sure what to think of you anymore.

    It’s rather racist of you that that particular story shows up as a Related Post here.

    You post a story about a black man, and right below it is a big smiling monkey.

    Have you no shame?

    1
    5
  113. @James Joyner:

    Is your life really so empty that you have to show up here under constantly-changing aliases even after having been repeatedly told you’re not welcome here?

    It does seem to be the case.

    4
    1
  114. @TM01: Because a story about an actual monkey is that same as referring to a black man as a monkey?

    Are you sure that is what you want to say?

    4
    1
  115. Mikey says:

    @Steven L. Taylor: DeSantis’ defenders here have no actual leg on which to stand. They’re excusing racism, but they want to pretend they’re not, so they resort to these dopey misdirections and complete disregard of context.

    It’s their typical intellectual dishonesty that makes what they say completely worthless, except as mockery fodder.

    3
    1
  116. Kathy says:

    @Mikey:

    No doubt they think it’s all our fault, as we stubbornly keep insisting that racism is racist.

    1
    1
  117. KM says:

    @Steven L. Taylor:

    Are you sure that is what you want to say?

    Yes it is. They are irony-impaired when they think they’re being clever. It’s like watching a small child be told “butt” isn’t nice to call someone and watch them gleefully yell you’re using a dirty word every time your sentence has a “but” in it. It’s only a gotcha to the young and dumb.

    5
    1
  118. mattbernius says:

    @Mikey:

    DeSantis’ defenders here have no actual leg on which to stand. They’re excusing racism, but they want to pretend they’re not, so they resort to these dopey misdirections and complete disregard of context.

    I think for many, it’s partially that they are trying to maintain a very specific definition of “racism.”

    Radley Balko recently had a really instructive commentary on this:

    This [American Conservative] piece reminds me of an angry action I received to a story I wrote several years ago for Reason. The story itself was about how federal prosecutors had used lying jailhouse informants to wrongly convict a black family of drug dealing.

    While in high school, the boys in the family were known to date white girls. This angered local law enforcement, and put the family in their crosshairs. One of the boys ended up marrying a white girl. I interviewed her parents for the article. They told me how they were upset that their daughter would marry a black man, and how they’d never even though they’d invite a black man into their house. But they changed, grew to love him, and were outraged when he was wrongly convicted.

    In the story, I basically suggested that the couple was racist prior to meeting their new son-in-law. After it was published, they were really angry that I had described them that way. They insisted that while they previously didn’t think black and white people should mix, date, or marry, they were *never racist.* And they were offended that I would describe them that way. Racist people, one family member told me, want to hang black people from trees. They would never support such a thing.

    I believe they were completely sincere about this complaint. But it was an interesting lesson. Very few people think of themselves as racist, even as they make arguments and support policies that very clearly are.

    Sorry for the typos! /end

    source: https://twitter.com/radleybalko/status/1035246480184041472

  119. @mattbernius: This is the fundamental problem with this discussion–many people think something is only racist if the person perpetrating the action says, “I am a racist, doing this for racist reason” and/or uses the n-word while wearing a hood.

  120. mattbernius says:
  121. TM01 says:

    @Steven L. Taylor:

    Because a story about an actual monkey is that same as referring to a black man as a monkey?

    It’s obvious that the association of the two stories is a racist dog whistle by you guys.

    I honestly don’t see any other way to interpret you guys putting those two stories together.

    You’re not being very articulate.

  122. TM01 says:

    @Steven L. Taylor:

    This is the fundamental problem with this discussion–many people think something is only racist if the person perpetrating the action says, “I am a racist, doing this for racist reason” and/or uses the n-word while wearing a hood.

    No. The fundamental problem is that too many people KNOW that other person is racist, and therefore everything he says MUST have a racist connotation.

    Someone says monkey, and just because the other candidate is black, well then… RACISM!!

    Never mind countless examples of the word monkey used by Biden, Schumer, and gosh, even Obama himself. Biden even called articulate, but we all know that was just fine.

    No one really noticed those, and no one would have noticed this if not for you LOOKING for one more thing to prove THEY are racist.

    You want to see racism. Therefore no matter what is said, you’ll find some way to use it to prove it’s racism.

    This whole “story” is frakking ridiculous. Race-baiting at its finest.

    Here’s the apology DeSantis should issue: “I am very sorry for my poor choice of words and should have known how the media would portray them. For that, I truly am an idiot and should have known better. What I should have said is this: Let’s not fuck up this great country with more of this socialist bull shit being pushed by Gillum.”

  123. @TM01:

    You’re not being very articulate.

    I will be more direct, if it helps: the selfie story is about an actual monkey. The algorithm of the blogging software associated the word “monkey” from the DeSantis story to that story and hence posted it to the right hand column.

    One story is about a monkey (the selfie story). It is appropriate to call a monkey a monkey.

    However, there is a clear history of blacks being referred to as monkeys.

    The fact that you can’t tell the difference underscores your problem here.

  124. @TM01: I would suggest that you do not understand what “connotation” means.

    A word has connotation whether it is intended or not. If one mistakenly uses a phrase, for example, that has a sexist connotation, but then one realizes it, one ought to then apologize profusely regardless of intent.

    You also seem to have a problem with the concept of “context.” No one is saying that the word monkey is inherently racist.

    And your proposed apology ignores the connotation issue.

  125. And the notion that someone who wants to be the chief executive of one of our largest states should be careful with his words is hardly unreasonable.

    I have far less responsibility than does he and you can be rest assured I am aware of what I am saying in public, especially when I am doing a media event.

  126. Kylopod says:

    @TM01:

    Biden even called [Obama] articulate, but we all know that was just fine.

    If you’re referring to Biden’s remark about how Obama was “the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” that was considered a major gaffe, was the source of a lot of criticism at the time, and Biden apologized, something Desantis has yet to do.

    Where on earth did you get the idea that Dems regarded Biden’s remark as “just fine”? I get the distinct sense your only source of information about the gaffe up to now comes from listening to right-wing commentators complain about it–while conveniently neglecting to mention it was also controversial among Dems, in order to give the impression there was a double standard when in reality there was none. You’ve been brainwashed by people who carefully select the information you receive to give you a distorted impression, and you fall for it, just like you fall for the man who created Trump University.

    10
  127. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Steven L. Taylor: On the right, words are only denotative, apparently. Which is confusing because for the longest time, we’ve been told that what Trump says should not be taken literally, but should be taken seriously. Hmmmmm…

  128. Matt says:

    You know I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt over the monkey thing. Even the articulate thing was kind of meh. Then I found out he was a member and moderator at a racist tea party facebook group….

    https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/08/31/ron-desantis-leaves-racist-facebook-group-says-unknowingly-member/

    I wonder what racist thing involving desantis will be found next….

    Now I’ve had several friends add me to groups on facebook and every time facebook has asked me for confirmation. Now I’m willing to admit there might be a setting to allow your friends to invite you so that you join the group without your consent but there is no way that Ron didn’t receive a notice or three about it.

  129. @TM01: Your “arguments” are mostly extremely silly word games. Beyond that, you (and others trying to make these arguments) might be taken more seriously if you were doing something other than simply trying to utterly downplay the importance of racism in our society and politics.

    You come across far more as one who is simply defending the team than one who has a serious argument.

  130. @TM01: Since you are obsessed with whatabout Biden, let me note a few things.

    First, there is more to the quote:

    “I mean, you’ve got the first sort of mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that’s a story-book, man,” Biden said.

    So, yes, it was dumb to say “articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy,” but the context is clearly an attempt to be positive (especially with “I mean, that’s a story-book, man” included). DeSantis is trying to criticize Gillum, Biden was trying to compliment Obama.

    And, note, even with that fact, he took heat for the comment (and he should have).

    Second,

    Biden later called Obama and then spoke to reporters during a conference call saying Obama understood what he meant.

    “This is a guy who’s come along in a way that’s captured the imagination of the country in a way that no one else has. That was the point of everything I was saying,” Biden said.

    But late Wednesday, Obama released a statement seizing on Biden’s use of the word “articulate.”

    “I didn’t take Sen. Biden’s comments personally, but obviously they were historically inaccurate,” Obama said. “African-American presidential candidates like Jesse Jackson, Shirley Chisholm, Carol Moseley Braun and Al Sharpton gave a voice to many important issues through their campaigns, and no one would call them inarticulate.”

    […]

    Fearing the political damage of his comments Wednesday night, Biden released a statement saying, “I deeply regret any offense my remark in the New York Observer might have caused anyone. That was not my intent and I expressed that to Sen. Obama.”

    So, Biden called Obama to apologize, still took heat for the comment, and also publicly apologized more than once.

    Had DeSantis followed this pattern, this post would be a different thing.

    Third, DeSantis is running in a time that is highly racially charged because of the president he is supporting (not true of Biden). Further, DeSantis has been linked to a racist Facebook group (not true of Biden.

    Context. Context. Context. It matters.

  131. @TM01: And this “confederation of states” thing is really a fantastic illustration of the problem with your understanding of politics. First, it is clear that you are getting too much news from right-wing sites, as if one Googles the phrase in question, that is most of what pops up. Second, what Gillum was clearly talking about was an alliance of states to work together to manage the costs of “Medicare for all” if the federal government won’t do it since the cost of single state doing it is prohibitive. I have sincere doubts about the policy efficacy of the idea, but if you really think that this represents some kind of “gotcha!” then I would suggest you lack the needed sophistication to have even a simple argument about politics.

  132. Bruce Henry says:

    It’s not that he lacks the sophistication, it is that he and his ilk are just plain dishonest. They (and he) KNOW that things like this “confederacy” thing are not real “gotchas,” they just pretend to believe they are.

    I don’t know what took me so long, but I first noticed it in 2005, at the time of the “Kerry’s botched joke” kerfuffle. The playbook remains the same.

  133. Kylopod says:

    @TM01:

    And if you were honest you would still be using his “gaffe” as yet more proof that Biden is a white supremacist.

    All racial offenses are not created equal. There are degrees to these things. A few weeks ago somebody here compared Biden to Archie Bunker, but I argued that he’s a lot more like the character of Mike aka “Meathead.” Mike is depicted on the show as a liberal who strongly supports racial equality and is appalled by Archie’s casual racism. But he sometimes says things suggesting a rather patronizing attitude toward minorities. At one point he’s confronted by his black friend Lionel, who complains that Mike sees him as a “representative of the entire black race” and that he bends over backwards to be nice to him. That’s somewhere in the territory of where I’d place Biden’s remark. He was trying to praise the progress the country has made that we’d get such an attractive African American candidate as Obama, but he resorted to a few mildly insulting stereotypes to make that point. How is that in any way, shape, or form in the same category as bashing an African American candidate while invoking a very weird use of the term “monkey”?

  134. Susan Dudak says:

    Obama said almost the same thing in 2008 and no one said one word about it. I believe what he said was “In 2008, Barack Obama told voters he was from Chicago and that Democrats had “monkeyed” with elections.Obama said, “I come from Chicago. It’s not as if it’s just Republicans who have monkeyed around with elections in the past. Sometimes Democrats have, too. You know, whenever people are in power, they have this tendency to try to tilt things in their direction.”

    No one batted an eye.

  135. Kylopod says:

    @Susan Dudak: “Monkey around with” is a known idiom. “Monkey up” is not.

    https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/monkey%20around

    1
    1
  136. Susan Dudak says:

    @MarkedMan: Obama used the same term in 2008. Are you calling him a racist as well? @Michael Reynolds:

  137. Susan Dudak says:

    @Susan Dudak: That is what you would like to think but you are wrong. If you use monkey in any form nowadays, they jump on it. If Obama had been white, it would have jumped on immediately. And….you know it.

  138. Bruce Henry says:

    I guess I take it back. Apparently some of them really are stupid enough to believe their own BS.

  139. @Bruce Henry: Pretty much.

    Sigh.

  140. Steve Woita says:

    You will be thrilled to know I have contacted my local school board and park district demanding that all “monkey bars” be removed from schools and parks in our city. I will also bring suit against “Monkey Shines” car wash to change their offensive name. No longer do I have a “monkey wrench” in my tool box; nor will I eat “monkey bread.” We may have a problem getting rid of “monkey gaff,” “monkey pot,” and “monkey jar.” In order to usher in utopia we have to do what it takes to destroy those evil, #$%^& racists!!!!! Let’s go for it!!