Saturday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Saturday, October 23, 2021
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36 comments
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
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Fraturday! Fraturday! Fraturday!
Fraturday! Fraturday! Fraturday!
Fraturday! Fraturday! Fraturday night’s alright.
Technically, barely a Fraturday. We wrapped at 12.13am.
https://twitter.com/allinwithchris/status/1451703514141499397
Proving you are not “woke.”
https://twitter.com/janecoaston/status/1126884369715597312
…
https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1451569056209723395
https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1451573438196305920
@charon:
And to think that just a few short years ago, J. D Vance was the darling of many litterateurs for his exquisitely sensitive portrayal of growing up amongst toothless yokels.
I’m pleased to say that I was never one of them. I always knew there was something very wrong with this toad.
I found that link via NMMNB:
https://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2021/10/the-free-floating-cruelty-is-point.html
…
In the eternal race between knowledge and ignorance, WSJ has two very interesting articles. One focuses on the founders of BioNTech and Moderna, and how they were able to produce safe and effective vaccines in a highly compressed time period. The other is about health care providers who refuse to get vaccinated and their rationalizations.
@charon:
I agree that “vice signaling” can be a way to demonstrate one’s hibernating bona fides. I think other motivating factors can also be at play. For instance, there’s a lot of similar signaling on OTB, but it doesn’t strike me as non/anti-woke.
@Mimai:
It appears to some people virtue or vice signaling are terms used pejoratively – accusations of exaggerating the true lack of great actual concern for the issues. I don’t think that is quite the same as being open about one’s feelings – for example admitting schadenfreude vs. sending phony “thoughts and prayers.”
If I, for example. post a linkie like this, it’s because I actually check the site occasionally:
https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/
@charon:
This is, I think, not really “vice sjgnaling,” it’s how the man truly thinks:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/19/politics/donald-trump-colin-powell-death/index.html
@charon:
I completely believe that Trump is a rotten human being who takes great pleasure in trashing others, but I also believe that he knows that by saying churlish things, he’ll command immediate attention on the worldwide stage, which is essential to him. He needs to have all eyes on him, and what better way to accomplish that than by being a total boor? Bonus: His base loves it.
I’m only surprised he hasn’t said anything appalling about Alec Baldwin. His handlers must have had to drug and muzzle him.
@charon:
I agree that there is a distinction between signaling and expressing. I also think we often fall into the trap of asymmetric insight when we differentially evaluate such things based on the source (me vs. us vs. them).
I suppose the Tucker Carlson/Laura Ingraham/ Fox News oeuvre re COVID vaccines would be “vice signaling” examples in the J.D Vance sense – they all know they are promulgating B.S.
@CSK:
I think that’s true of many politicians – they say what plays well, not what they truly think.
I can’t read minds, but my guess though is that crackpots like MTG, Lauren Boebert etc. are saying what they really think, and there are a lot of other QAnon fan type cranks in the GOP.
As to whether that Trump statement includes cynical playing to the base, I don’t know – his thought processes have always been weird, he does not think like a normal person – and now, in addition, he’s becoming progressively aaddled by senile dementia.
@charon:
I think his playing to the base has become a reflexive action with him. He doesn’t really think about it; he just does it the way you scratch an itch.
But you’re right that he’s far from normal, so it’s difficult to analyze him.
@charon:
Gods, and I thought my birth family was wacko! But chocking on is my own fault… After all, I clicked on the link.
I came to this through Lucianne.com, my one-stop shopping outlet for rabid right-wing conspiracy theories:
http://www.usasupreme.com/alec-baldwin-shooting-victim-was-wife-of-latham-watkins-lawyer-which-represent-the-clinton-connected-attorney-just-indicted-by-bob-durham/
I’m surprised it only took them 24 hours to connect the death of Ms. Hutchins to…Bill and Hillary Clinton.
@CSK:
Gawd almighty, what are the smoking, and why?
@Flat Earth Luddite: THEY not the. No more edit button for me today I guess. Argh!
@Mimai:
I see a lot more frustration, dark humor and schadenfreude here than the free-floating cruelty that is the hallmark of vice signaling. Frustrated gallows humor about horrible things that you cannot change that people seem to bring on themselves.
When people in the covid wildlife refuge of Idaho come across the boarder to start filling the ICU beds in Washington, I might make a comment about how we should turn them away, but it mostly comes from the fear that if things continue unchecked we’re going to have to turn them away. I don’t think that’s vice signaling.
I’ve also drifted away from the term “vice signaling” to “performative assholery” as it just seems clearer (to me, at least) where that line is — is the goal of the performance to be an asshole, or is the assholery a side effect of expressing frustration with a touch of exaggeration and humor?
@Flat Earth Luddite:
Oh, they’re famous for blaming the demise of any currently prominent person on the Clintons, particularly Hillary. A few years ago some idiot made a list of 43 deaths that could be directly attributed to HRC. The crash of a light plane in bad weather? The Clintons sabotaged the aircraft! A car skids and crashes on a slippery road at night? HRC cut the brake lines! Death from a heart attack or stroke? Hillary had the victim poisoned!
There is no end to her evil, you see. Well, we all know she drinks the blood of children. Just ask Marjorie Taylor Greene.
@Flat Earth Luddite:
If you find out, let me know.
International news that people may have missed:
In Turkey President Erdogan says ten ambassadors, including those of the US, France and Germany are to be declared persona non grata
In Brussels continuing discussions over Poland’s legal challenge to European Court of Justice jurisdiction. (Hungary also continues to bubble on the back gas ring).
And President Biden reiterates that the US is committed to the defence of Taiwan, provoking squawks from Beijing.
Oh, and little Luxembourg, in a triumph for common sense, becomes the first country in Europe to legalise the domestic cultivation of cannabis. (Up to four plants for personal use.)
@Gustopher:
I agree with this. And still, there is a not insignificant amount of “I seriously hope they die” being expressed. I hope it’s performative. Or maybe I don’t. I’m conflicted.
“Performative assholery” does have a nice ring to it and seems to apply to many (though not all) such retchings. I do wonder if it’s possible to engage in performative assholery and not be an actual asshole. Seems to me that to perform is to confirm. Maybe that’s unfair?
@Mimai:
If you enjoy acting like an asshole, you probably are an asshole.
@CSK: Truth! Also funny to see you channeling your inner Jeff Foxworthy.
@Mimai:
I wasn’t aware I have an inner Jeff Foxworthy, but I take your point. 🙂
Well, I don’t exactly hope anyone dies, but i might wish them to suffer commensurate with their sins.
@Mimai:
Hmmm.
I buzzed in and let the clock run out.
I’m not sure which way I want to go with the comment.
@Kurtz:
Ooooh, that means I get to pick! I’d love to see you go in a way that combines Lil Nas X (for the performance) and Caligula (for the assholery). Please, thank you.
Governor Evers commissioned a “Fair Maps Commission” that was tasked with mapping out state and federal districts that were (ostensibly) free from bias.
Here’s part of the press release I received this week:
“Ensuring a candidate of a certain race is electable” doesn’t sound unbiased–especially when Milwaukee is solidly blue.
Districts should be defined with zero thought as to who lives there. Boundaries should be based on geometry first (e.g., border to area ratio) in conjunction with population equality, then geographical boundaries (rivers, etc.), then political boundaries (e.g., don’t split a municipality), and finally rational boundaries (e.g., major roads, railroad tracks, etc.). “Who’s in this area” shouldn’t factor into it.
@Mu Yixiao: I wish I could find it now, but someone had created a beautiful map for Illinois that was almost exactly a spoke system coming from Chicago, ensuring that every district was entirely representative of the state, with a balance of urban and rural. Just beautiful.
It would also lead to an all Democratic house delegation.
If a state votes 55% for Party 1 and 45% for Party 2, you can split the states districts up “fairly” so;
A) every district is 55% P1,
B) 55% of the districts are likely to favor P1,
C) or something in between,
D) or the ever popular 60% of the districts slightly but significantly favoring P2 and 40% really loving P1.
But any of those require having some understanding of “who’s in the area”. B is probably the hardest to pull off and the fairest, and really needs that info.
To get to something near B, where the house delegation actually reflects the state, you need to either look into the districts, or just scrap single seat districts altogether. Our host Dr. T. probably has about 150 old blog posts on the subject.
ETA: your “don’t split municipalities” rule is likely to lead to D, the least small-d democratic of them them all.
ETA2: Thinking about my estimate on Dr. Taylor’s posts, I’m sticking by it — right order of magnitude, at least. Way more than 15, but way less than 1500.
Yesterday we were discussing “vice signaling” (or performative assholery) as cynical hypocrisy. Example:
https://twitter.com/stephenjudkins/status/1451422697758486529
It works two ways though.
https://twitter.com/Lenoxus/status/1451617583346630659
@charon:
Those tweets were in reference to this:
https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1443190841846210561
@Gustopher:
I don’t think that’s good. That’s homogenization. I want accurate representation of rational districts. The needs of Chicago are very different from the needs of Springfield, Champagne-Urbana, Decatur, or Carbondale
I like a bipartisan (or, even better, multipartisan) system where competing interests try to find the best good for the most people. If districts are representative of then state as a whole, then they almost always represent urban interests. Illinois has a population of 12.4M. 9.6M of those are in the greater Chicago area. Do you honestly believe that people who don’t know that hamburgers come from cows* should be given overwhelming authority to dictate how farms operate?
Democracy is more than just “listen to the most voices”. It must include “give the fewer voices a forum to be heard, and incorporate their needs and desires into the overall plan”
NYC consumes 19 billion pounds of food every year. Isn’t it reasonable to give the those who cultivate, raise, harvest, and sell that food a voice that is theirs?
Tangentially: When I see leftists say “Yeah! Let those red states form their own country, we don’t want them!”, nobody looks at the fact that those red states are where most of our food comes from. And our textiles. And a fair share of our resources (lumber, steel, aluminum, cotton, etc.).
I fully support proportional representation–but that representation must be representative. “3/4 of Illinois is Chicago, so Chicago represents the entire state” is absolutely wrong. If Chicago gets 9 out of 12 representatives, that’s fair. But the other 3 must be allowed to have their voice and accurately represent the other 1/4 of the population.
==========
* No, that’s not hyperbole. In my 50+ years of dealing with “city folk”, the number who don’t equate “animal=meat” has been staggering.
@Mimai:
Oh, come on.
Satan shoes and Caligula? You just made my list of something. Not a hit list. Not a shit list. Just some list.