Sunday’s Forum

James Joyner
About James Joyner
James Joyner is Professor and Department Head of Security Studies at Marine Corps University's Command and Staff College and a nonresident senior fellow at the Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security at the Atlantic Council. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm vet. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter @DrJJoyner.


  1. CSK says:
  2. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Every now and again, reading the news pays off. Via Arwa Mahdawi at the Guardian:

    Ordinarily, I have zero regrets about not attending law school. But every so often there’s a legal shitshow that lights up every corner of my brain, and I understand why people get into the field.

    The insurance company GEICO, who have tormented us with corny ads and that British lizard mascot for way too long, are right now embroiled in a sordid affair involving a man and a woman known in court documents as M.B. and M.O. The latter has been seeking damages related to contracting HPV, the most common sexually transmitted infection in the U.S. She says this was the result of having unprotected sex with M.B. in his car in late 2017, when he supposedly knew he was positive for the virus but had not told her. M.O. received her diagnosis in 2018. Because the vehicle was insured by GEICO, in February of this year she demanded a liability settlement from the company to the tune of $1 million — or else she’d file for damages.

    Yes, a million dollars from his car insurance company. Because they had sex in his car.

  3. OzarkHillbilly says:
  4. Monala says:

    I recently had a Twitter argument with someone about the Covid vaccines. The other person’s point was that you can’t trust the vaccines because the Big Pharma companies that made them tested them themselves, and that’s like the tobacco companies saying their products were safe.

    I argued back that Big Pharma has its issues, but many life-saving drugs out there have been created and tested by legitimate scientists working for Big Pharma, and that’s a far cry from promoting a life-killing product like tobacco.

    A response to a Jordan Peterson tweet today excellently encapsulates what I was trying to say.


    It’s mystifying to see so little skepticism of oft-vilified big pharma re covid vaccines on the left. Can someone explain this?


    Our skepticism of big pharma is typically not about the efficacy of their medicine but the equity of their business practices.

  5. CSK says:

    Since Walnut may have killed her two former mates, Chris should probably step carefully around her.

  6. Jax says:

    Allen West has Covid and may need to be hospitalized. Don’t you worry, though, he’s been treating it with HCQ and Ivermectin.

    I had some sticker shock when I had to buy Ivermectin for our cow herd this week. Last year, 4 5L bottles was $129. This year, $359, even the generic. I didn’t even look to see what the name brand Ivomec cost. It may have been completely out of stock.

  7. OzarkHillbilly says:

    California man dies after being beaten by people he tried to hit with truck

    A man died after he tried to hit people on a sidewalk with his truck, crashed against a building then was pulled out and beaten by the group in southern California, authorities said. The man was asked to leave a business in Hawthorne early on Saturday, then argued with someone while walking to his truck, said Lt Hugo Reynaga of the Los Angeles county sheriff’s department. The man then intentionally drove the truck on to the sidewalk, nearly hitting a group of patrons before his truck wedged against a tree, the Daily Breeze reported. As the patrons tried to take the man out of the driver’s seat, he accelerated again and hit the corner of a nearby building, Reynaga said. The patrons took the driver out of the truck and continued fighting with him as Hawthorne police arrived, sheriff’s deputy Grace Medrano said.

    The driver suffered blunt-force trauma, Medrano said. He died at the scene.

    I have mixed emotions.
    1st: The MFer was asking for it.
    2nd: Mobs and justice do not go together.

  8. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: I could say something about ex-wives but I’m gonna let it pass.

    @Jax: A couple weeks ago I was at the vet with one of our hounds. They found hookworms. As the vet tech handed me the dewormer, she said with a half grin, “These are for the dogs, not you.”

    I couldn’t stifle my snort.

  9. Monala says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: like you, I originally received the J&J vaccine in March. Recently due to some health challenges I’ve had, I went to get a Moderna booster. I’m scheduled for the second shot in a few weeks. Should I get it?

  10. CSK says:

    But the Moderna booster hasn’t been approved yet. Like the J&J booster, the Moderna may be approved on Oct. 22.

  11. Monala says:

    @CSK: I know. I chose to get a Moderna shot because it has higher efficacy than Pfizer. (Basically, I cheated). I’m checking in with Ozark because IIRC, he did the same.

  12. Jax says:

    @Monala: I would go ahead and get your second Moderna shot, given your health issues.

  13. CSK says:

    Yesterday’s forum had some discussion of squash recipes. This is good:

    Cut acorn squash in half. Scoop out seeds. In the seed hollow, place a pat of butter and a heaping tablespoon of orange marmalade. Bake at 400 degrees for an hour.

  14. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Monala: I’m not a doctor so I’m not about to tell you what you should or should not do. I will tell you that I did. Also that I had no side effects, but than I never do.

  15. Jax says:

    @CSK: Acorn squash is next! We’ve been getting regular deliveries from the “fruit belt” in Utah, winter squash is coming into season and I love it!

    I still have half a box of peaches I need to figure out what to do with. I’ve cobblered, pied and crisped my kids to death, froze some for future use, and STILL have a bunch left!

  16. CSK says:

    Well, follow my recipe for acorn squash. That was the way my mother made it, and everyone raved like maniacs about it. I think you can also do it with delicata squash.

    As for the peaches: Ice cream? Jam?

  17. Mimai says:

    @Jax: Habanero peach chutney! Jalapeno works well too. Can it and use all winter. Great with so many things: pork tenderloin (natch), burgers, grilled cheese sammies, over cream cheese, biscuits, etc. Also great with vanilla ice cream.

  18. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: I’ve always done Acorn squash with butter, brown sugar, and a dash of cinnamon. I’m gonna have to try your orange marmalade.

  19. CSK says:

    Dang, I forgot chutney. Delicious.

    I guarantee you’ll love it. There’s just something about the orange and squash combo…Let us know.

  20. Michael Cain says:


    But the Moderna booster hasn’t been approved yet. Like the J&J booster, the Moderna may be approved on Oct. 22.

    Also, the Moderna booster will almost certainly only be approved for people who got the Moderna vaccine originally. TTBOMK, none of the three companies have submitted any clinical data for mix-and-match boosters. More important would be for the Moderna to get fully licensed. At that point, as I understand it, use as a booster for people who initially got Pfizer or J&J would simply be “off label” without any regulatory legal risks for the care providers.

  21. Richard Gardner says:
  22. Neil Hudelson says:

    Going along with the threads theme, I’m going to use my Indigenous People’s holiday tomorrow to make winter squash pop tarts for my staff. Acorn and pumpkin.

  23. Jim Brown 32 says:

    I watched the Chappelle Netflix finale last night with Ms Brown. Laughter is a helluva afrodesiac and Dave is batting .1000 in getting Jim Brown lucky after the show. He’s still .1000

    After reading last nights thread I thought I was going to hear an hour of Trans jokes…I felt it was maybe 35% of the act. Could have been more because Im not going to view the show from the same lens as a trans person or someone really dialed into that community.

    This wasnt really a comedy show. It was social commentary with humor weaved in. Dave has blended the content of Dick Gregory with the story telling of Cosby…and spliced in the timing of Pryor. I dont know if he sticks with this model in the future but hes kinda put 3 familiar things together to make, not something new, but something different.

    Anyone reading me over the years knows that JB32 is Pro-Black. Period. I have to be because the bottom line in America is that white people either don’t want anything to do with us…or they want us under their boot so they can feel better about their own sorry social status. Sure, we get a little help from individuals here and there but its nothing that can ever be counted on.

    In my view, the point of the Trans commentary was to highlight the whiteness of the Trans movement and how they pursue their goals. Not bash the people themselves. Beyond whether the jokes were appropriate are not…most of us see many of these movements as products of white privilege itself. Whenever there is a conflict between black individuals or community goals. The people in these movements will pull the white card first…which Trumps any card we can play. The rest of the time its…”hey we’re oppressed by the WASMs just like you”. That’s not going to make for a stable alliance.

    This whole dynamic exposes the flaw in identity politics. We all have multiple identities. White LGBTQs dont stop being white and black LGBTQs remain black. All of these movements have developed fault lines around race: Womens Lib, Civil Rights, Me Too, BLM…. So when Dave says his problem isn’t with a marginalized group…its with white people (or more specifically their methods). I feel that. Forced participation in validating the self image of Trans persons beyond politeness and calling people what theyd like…is white privilege. Who was forced to validate the self image and worth of black people? When I grew up there were hundreds of unconscious cues that I wasnt worth shit. Again, I as well as many other black people do not condone the perpetuation of evil. No one should have to live or raise children in those conditions. But the point remains that the white people in these communities will claim a privilege they dont advocate or practice with black folks they claim solidarity with.

    Race IS the legal tender of our public square and public institutions so none of us can NOT be in a racial bucket first until that changes. Id like to be 3 or 4 things before Black. I dont get to do that. Self image wise…sure. in the public space..never. I think the real takeaway is that the people in these movements should always remain introspective of their methods and objectives. Are you really moving towards a tangible outcome or are we feeling good about ourselves? As always though, people will hear what they want to hear. Yes, that includes JB32.

  24. CSK says:
  25. OzarkHillbilly says:

    The message from Israel is clear: Covid booster shots should be standard

    In the summer, Israel began offering third doses of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine to the over-60s. It was the first country to start administering “booster shots”, to people vaccinated at least five months previously. The prime minister, Naftali Bennett, announced the decision after a study by Leumit Health Services, an Israeli healthcare provider, showed that those over the age of 60 who had been vaccinated more than five months previously were three times more likely to be infected than those vaccinated more recently. As of 29 August, Israel began offering a third dose to everyone aged 12 and older, who had waited this period of time. The question for other countries is now whether to follow Israel’s lead.

    The first data evaluating the early impact of the third dose programme were published last week in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM). It showed that two weeks after more than 1.1 million over-60s had received their third dose, they were 11.3 times less likely to become infected with the exceptionally contagious Delta variant that currently predominates in Israel and across the world.

    In other words, third doses are highly effective at preventing people from becoming infected with Delta, among those who are willing to be vaccinated. When third doses dramatically reduce a person’s susceptibility to infection, it creates a barrier to the onward transmission and spread of the virus. This is important because growing numbers of people are getting infected despite being vaccinated (though the risks of infection, spread and severe illness remain greatest among those who are unvaccinated). And they have similar peak levels of virus in their noses to those who are unvaccinated, contributing to the unrelenting spread of the virus.

  26. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Jim Brown 32:
    So Chappelle is attacking white racism by attacking the group many white people despise? Sorry, no.

    He could use his power to push measures ensuring Black votes. But no, gotta talk about the trans folk. Granting much of what Dave believes, and granting most of what you say in your eloquent comment, (and I agree re: identity politics) that excuse still does not fly. He’s punching down as a way to punch up?

    That’s beating up the guy who was just beaten up by the bully in order to make some point to the bully. Punch the Jew to score points off the Nazi. That’s either cowardice or bullshit, and I’m calling the latter. Chappelle is a very smart man, he had other ways to make his point, instead he went after vulnerable people. He made a choice to make an already vulnerable group feel worse so he could get laughs and then wrap it all up in his messiah complex.

  27. Jay L Gischer says:

    @Jim Brown 32: Wow, thanks for the feedback. I guess the question I have is whether Chapelle wants me to receive the message or not. Maybe he doesn’t. Sometimes what people say isn’t intended for me, and that’s ok.

  28. Monala says:

    @Michael Reynolds: as a black woman, I agree with you. Black trans women are some of the most vulnerable people in this world, often the most likely to be harassed or killed. Even publicly, many of the most prominent trans voices are black (e.g., Laverne Cox). Caitlin Jenner aside, there isn’t some huge white privilege movement going on in trans spaces (not that it’s non-existent) like there is in gay spaces (e.g. Sullivan, Thiel, Greenwald).

  29. Modulo Myself says:

    @Jim Brown 32:

    If Chappelle wanted to say something about a bunch of upper middle class white people all giving their pronouns out that would be one thing. Especially if they’re all very conventional appearance-wise. The whole he/him she/her bit from people who look 100% like white yoga-doing Connecticut-born green-market proud yuppies is ridiculous. It’s like a boutique wine store which sells $50 bottles of natural wine and hangs a BLM poster in its window.

    Instead, he’s attacking trans people directly, and pretending that it’s not bigotry. Chappelle is a smart funny guy, and maybe it’s not that of a big deal, but why is he so fixated on who is really a woman?

  30. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: And yet, a white but no longer particularly conservative evangelical friend of mine sent me the same article worrying about “the end” coming. This crap resonates with people at soul level, lost causers maybe even more than the Dominion Theology wing of the FG cohort.

  31. Beth says:

    @Jim Brown 32:

    Is validating Black Trans Men and Women also White Privilege? I’m grateful that you’d be polite to me, but it leave me with the feeling you’d talk shit about me behind my back. Honestly I’d rather you be up front with it though. Politeness is what I get from White male attorneys when I tell them that I’m scared of the cops. I don’t for an instant think that being White is going to save me.

    That being said, could you at least find it in your hear to validate Black Trans men and women? The Brave Space Alliance is doing amazing work on the Southside of Chicago. They are serving a marginalized population in a marginalized population and doing great work.

    For what it’s worth, I’m empathize with this:

    When I grew up there were hundreds of unconscious cues that I wasnt worth shit.

    Growing up every portrayal of Trans people made it very clear to me that if people knew I’d be mocked, attacked, and likely killed. I have a good understanding of that trauma.

    Also, congrats on getting laid.


    I know it’s really nothing in the grand scheme of things, but in the Trans social group I’m in we have intentionally made the choice to put non-White women into leadership. We are an overwhelmingly White group and I’m confident that the last thing we want to turn into is a group of Caitlyn Jenners. She’s the absolute worst. She’s a walking White Privilege in human form. I’d rather follow Laverne Cox, Janet Mock or MJ Rodriguez any day. I’m pretty sure Laverne Cox was the first representation of a Trans person that wasn’t a horror show or a joke. She’s hugely important to a lot of us.

  32. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: He must have some sort of miscellaneous liability coverage on his car. Mine stipulates coverage only in the case of a vehicle accident. 😛

    And the Gecko is clearly an Aussie. I’d bet a toaster biscuit on it!-

  33. MarkedMan says:

    @Modulo Myself:

    It’s like a boutique wine store which sells $50 bottles of natural wine and hangs a BLM poster in its window.

    What, exactly, is wrong with that?

  34. CSK says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:
    I often wonder: Do they fear a coming civil war or are they avidly anticipating it?

  35. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: It’s important to stop hitting the person once they have stopped actively moving for a self-defense charge. The police need to update on this point also. I would have thought the police would have learned with Rodney King, but apparently not.

  36. wr says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: “And the Gecko is clearly an Aussie. I’d bet a toaster biscuit on it!-”

    According to the Geico ads that used to run on Jeopardy, his accent is Cockney, not Aussie.

  37. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Jax: Peach fruit leather makes a nice change from raisins in a lunch sack. Just sayin’…

  38. Tony W says:



    As a home beer brewer I’d be racking a nice sour ale on top of pureed peaches, then barrel aging it for a spell.

  39. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @wr: I’ll take their word on it. Where would you like me to mail your toaster biscuit?

  40. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: My friend? Afraid. Others? Varies by intent. The preference that ruling on Earth is more important than serving in Heaven (and the corollary that ruling on Earth raises your status in Heaven) is strong in some.

  41. CSK says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:
    What about secession? Not that it’s possible, but they yak about it a lot.

  42. Mu Yixiao says:


    Yesterday’s forum had some discussion of squash recipes. This is good:

    You are incorrect. Nothing that includes squash is good.

    Unless you’re British, In which case “squash” is fruit juice concentrate–which may be yummy.

  43. CSK says:

    @Mu Yixiao:
    Many would disagree vehemently with your assessment.

  44. CSK says:

    @Mu Yixiao:
    And…orange squash, the drink, is thoroughly American.

  45. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mu Yixiao: Nothing that includes squash is good.


  46. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    I always wonder why they (the ones who cheer it) think they will survive it?

  47. CSK says:

    They claim to have all the guns.

  48. Beth says:


    If I’m not mistaken they also believe the greater left is completely unarmed and full of scared weak wannabes.

    Doesn’t bode well for them if they misunderstood their opposition from the start.

  49. Gustopher says:


    I had some sticker shock when I had to buy Ivermectin for our cow herd this week. Last year, 4 5L bottles was $129. This year, $359, even the generic.

    The price gauging on life saving medications is appalling. We really need to let MediCare negotiate drug prices.

  50. Mu Yixiao says:

    @Jim Brown 32:

    I have to be because the bottom line in America is that white people either don’t want anything to do with us…or they want us under their boot so they can feel better about their own sorry social status.

    I honestly don’t give a rat’s ass about the color of your skin, your national or ethnic ancestry, your gender, or your sexuality. I want–and try to build–a world where all of those things are irrelevant. I believe that people are people.

    But you attribute motives to me–and have have decided that I hate you–because of the color of my skin.

    The irony is not lost on me.

  51. Mu Yixiao says:


    And…orange squash, the drink, is thoroughly American.

    Having lived the better part of a half century in America, I have never hear of a drink called “orange squash”.

    Orange Crush? Yes. Orange squash? That’s something that looks like a pumpkin that the person speaking forgot the name of.

    And Google agrees with me: “orange squash” comes up with only British or Indian drinks.

  52. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: I live in a pretty red county, but I don’t hear any secession talk around here. The warehouse guys I worked with back in the 70s and 80s were secessionist, though. I don’t know where it came from back then. And Eastern Washington seceding from the state was a thing during my grad school days in Ellensburg. That was just warped.

  53. Mu Yixiao says:


    I use my +3 “Fried Saurkraut” defense.

  54. Thomm says:

    @Jax: regarding Mr West, couldn’t happen to a nicer war criminal.

  55. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, I’ve been wondering that, too.

    @CSK: Uhh… I don’t know how to tell them this, but they’re wrong. And Luddite is making a list of places we can go to take some guns if we need any. (And again, I will warn that arming crackers is a bad idea.)

  56. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Mu Yixiao: “I believe that people are people.”

    That would make you what statisticians call “an outlier.”

  57. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: They are idiots.

  58. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mu Yixiao: I likes Sauerkraut anyway it comes, never had it fried tho. How’s it done?

  59. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: I live in a pretty red county, but I don’t hear any secession talk around here.

    They probably did the math and realized where all the money was. Most RWers aren’t that numerate.

  60. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Rex Chapman

    This father surprised his son after finishing an eleven year prison sentence…

    Keep a dry eye, I dare you.

  61. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Erik Solheim

    The Japanese Puffer Fish is probably nature’s greatest artist

    To grab a female’s attention he creates something that defies belief

    Do yourself a favor and spend the 2 minutes and 17 seconds it will cost you to watch this.

  62. Kylopod says:

    @Monala: The following Twitter exchange highlights who’s actually being inconsistent.

    5/ I can attest that, after this experience, I am even more dedicated to fighting against vaccine mandates. Instead of enriching the pockets of Big Pharma and corrupt bureaucrats and politicians, we should be advocating the monoclonal antibody infusion therapy.

    Monoclonal antibodies aren’t grown on trees, they’re made by Big Pharma, specifically Regeneron, a $57 billion company. They charge the government $2,100 for each dose of it, including yours.

    The mRNA vaccines cost $20 per dose.

  63. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Rick Scott
    · 23h
    Joe Biden’s radical, socialist agenda is pushing America off a cliff. Yesterday’s job numbers prove it. Are we surprised? No. But every American should be furious.

    Travis Akers

    The organization on his hat has free universal healthcare, free prescriptions, free college, tax-free housing allowance, subsidized food, and free social programs for families and spouses.

  64. Gustopher says:

    @Jim Brown 32:

    Forced participation in validating the self image of Trans persons beyond politeness and calling people what theyd like…is white privilege.

    I’m not sure what the forced participation is, beyond politeness and calling people what they would like is.

    I’m not trans, but I am queer, and most of what I heard in the show was someone who is a weak, 70% ally being defensive. Maybe I’m missing something trans folks would see, but the vast majority was a little cringe but basically fine enough. The root of tolerance is tolerate, after all.

    His comment about transfolk in women’s rights movements being like blackface was fucking offensive though.

    I’m not talking about the bit about Kaitlin Jenner being named woman of the year in her first year as a woman, or any of the other bits he did about that, just the blackface comment.

    It went beyond cringe into vile — trans folk aren’t pretending just long enough to put on a show for some trivial purpose, they’re living the life.

    Are trans folks pretending to be something they aren’t in general? I don’t know. Is it a physical problem where the body doesn’t match the brain, or a mental health problem where they can’t accept the body? I don’t know (and I don’t think mental health problems are less important than physical health problems).

    I do know that they are doing what they have to in order to survive, that they can’t turn it off and on and it isn’t just a performance. It’s not something someone just chooses to do.

  65. Sleeping Dog says:

    @Mu Yixiao:

    Have to agree with Mu. I had the chance last evening to pass once again on squash and gladly pushed it on to my wife’s plate.

  66. Gustopher says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    And Eastern Washington seceding from the state was a thing during my grad school days in Ellensburg.

    They really would be happier in Idaho. Perhaps we could set up a charity to help pay moving expenses.

  67. Sleeping Dog says:


    You know, I read about doing something like that in Playboy After Dark in HS.

  68. Mu Yixiao says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    That would make you what statisticians call “an outlier.”

    Not really.

    We all have bias and preconception–and I’m no exception. It’s not whether we have them that’s an issue, it’s whether we let them influence our behavior to significant enough degree that it negative impacts others.

    I would say that, in most daily interactions, most people really don’t think about our differences.

    There are 300M people in the US (rounding down to take wee bairns out of the equation). If we assume that an average person has 10 interactions in a day, that’s 3 billion interactions every day. Are you saying that not basing interactions on the person’s race, gender, etc., is an outlier in that pool?

    Recognizing a difference (race, age, sex, gender, etc.) is normal. But I don’t believe that changing our behavior* in individual encounters based on those factors is the default.

    And the implication is that the change in behavior is negative.

  69. Mu Yixiao says:


    I likes Sauerkraut anyway it comes, never had it fried tho. How’s it done?

    First of all, you need a good, crisp kraut–the simple kind, none of that Bavarian shit with cream and caraway.

    You’ll need:

    Butter (at least 2 sticks)
    Egg noodles
    Black pepper
    Dill weed

    Assuming you’re starting with a pint of Kraut….

    Cook up half a bag of egg noodles
    Drop a stick of butter into a frying pan (cast iron if you have it)
    When the butter is melted, put in the Kraut.
    Add pepper and dill to taste
    Add cooked, well-drained egg noodles
    Add butter as needed
    When kraut and noodles are starting to get crispy, add more butter, and then croutons to soak it up.

    Sooooo yummy!


    I was in university when I first realized that all of the “treat” food that Mom would make for us was actually “Depression food*”–it’s what she would make when she didn’t have enough money to buy meat and veg.

    Growing up, I never knew that we were “poor” (technically, “lower middle-class”). Everyone though we were well-off because of the house we lived in–but the mortgage payment was $150 (on a 15-year loan), and we ate “Depression food”. My first bike was pulled out of the junkyard by my dad. The next two were bought from his co-workers for $10 each.

    It was 1974 or 5 before we had a color TV in the house (bought second-hand)**

    * Food that people ate during the Great Depression. My father was born in 1922, my mother in 1932. They both grew up in times of severe economic downturns–including rationing.

    ** It was a “console” TV–and the console was exactly the same as our old one. I remember coming home from school, turning on the TV to watch Star Trek, and suddenly seeing it in color.

  70. Monala says:

    @Kylopod: so is West lying or just ignorant?

  71. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mu Yixiao: Sooooo yummy!


    I grew up on Depression food too, tho I’m not sure how much of that was due to the fact that it was what my old man grew up on and loved, and how much it was a matter of pinching pennies. No doubt some of both. I’m not sure when we got our first color TV, if I had to guess I’d say 70-72. Long after all my friends had them.

  72. Kylopod says:


    so is West lying or just ignorant?

    He’s just been hospitalized with Covid. I think it’s safe to say he’s come to believe at least some of his BS. I’ve noticed Covid-19 is a phenomenal lie detector.

  73. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: You’re probably right, but I wouldn’t give people here high marks for numeracy all the same.

  74. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’m not following. Am I tearing up because the recidivism rate is still at 85% and the likelihood that the kid will end up crying again when his dad goes back to jail is so high?

  75. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mu Yixiao: You tickled a memory: My folks bought their house in 1958 and added a room in ’65. Somewhere around ’79/’80 I asked Ma why she and the old man hadn’t upgraded and moved like most of their neighbors had, and seeing as their 4 oldest children were gone the house was a little empty. She replied that #1, they liked the neighborhood, and #2 their mortgage was the same as my rent: $150.

    Made sense to me.

  76. Mister Bluster says:

    My quadriplegic friend Joe lived in San Francisco for 20 years 1974-1994. As I have noted before in these threads he was stricken with the polio virus as an infant. He was born in 1950. He never took one walking step in his entire life.
    He was active in the disabled community in the Bay Area. When I was his live in attendant I would take him to Berkeley to visit the Independent Living Center there so he could consult with that organization about establishing an ILC in The City.
    I left California in the summer of 1975 but I kept in touch with Joe and visited him in San Francisco at least a half dozen times over the years.
    One of the organizing tactics was to have fund raising dinners to get the word out and people involved.
    On one occasion Joe was invited to speak at one of these affairs. The attendees were a mix of disabled, some with attendants and some able bodied folks.
    He told me how he started his presentation with a joke that he had heard. I know he told me where the joke came from but I have totally forgotten the origin so I am not going to speculate.
    It went like this:

    There were three guys at a bar at closing time. One of them was more inebriated than the other two so the two not quite as drunk fellows helped the third guy. They picked him up off the bar stool and he fell straight on the floor. They helped him up and out the door and as they were getting him into the cab that they called he fell down again. When the cab arrived at his house his wife was waiting for them. As they helped him to the door he fell down again.
    “Thank you for bringing him home.” his wife said “But where’s his wheelchair?”

    I laughed when Joe, sitting in his Everest and Jennings wheelchair, told me the joke.

    He said that when he delivered the punchline to the dinner crowd there was total silence.

  77. Michael Cain says:


    They probably did the math and realized where all the money was. Most RWers aren’t that numerate.

    To your point…

    Some years ago I read an interview with a non-elected county supervisor in a far northern California county where the elected officials were loud supporters of the State of Jefferson concept. The supervisor was basically, “I don’t know what they’re thinking. If we cut ourselves off from the big metro areas, we lose 50% of our road budget, 60% of our health care budget, and 70% of our education budget.”

    Around that same time I had a chance to talk over lunch at an academic workshop with the treasurer of the Colorado 51st State organization. (Under Colorado law they had to be a real non-profit in order to legally lobby the state legislature.) I pointed out that such a state would be desperately poor — no higher ed, probably not able to afford basic Medicare. And what did he say? “Those are features, my friend, not bugs.”

  78. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: Only you know why you are.

    And yes, I had that thought too.

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: The people around me can’t see anything more than their gunsights.

  79. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Mu Yixiao: So this is an Eastern European version of heart attack on a plate? Seriously though, it sounds pretty good. And at my age, the calories from the butter wouldn’t be that much of an issue as it would probably take me 2 or 3 days to digest it. But I do have to ask what I can do with the leftovers. Do they reheat well? There’s only me and that recipe is way too large for one person.

  80. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mister Bluster: I’m laughing.

    @Michael Cain: “Those are features, my friend, not bugs.”

    I know a couple RWers who are living on SS disability payments, food stamps, and probably Section 8 vouchers. I don’t begrudge either of them their benefits as they are both genuinely disabled, but when they talk about cutting off the benefits to the “slackers”, they both think they will be immune to the cuts.

  81. Mu Yixiao says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    But I do have to ask what I can do with the leftovers. Do they reheat well? There’s only me and that recipe is way too large for one person.

    The leftovers reheat very well.

    And, the recipe is fully scalable (since there really aren’t any actual measurements).

    Some kraut, some noodles, some croutons, enough butter to make it fry, pepper and dill to taste.

  82. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Michael Cain: “I pointed out that such a state would be desperately poor — no higher ed, probably not able to afford basic Medicare. And what did he say? “Those are features, my friend, not bugs.”

    Except that’s not innumeracy; that’s what evil looks like. He prefers ruling over Hell to participating in a functioning state.

  83. dazedandconfused says:


    I had thought there would never be an eating contest with any of the foods, like sauerkraut, grits, or lutefisk, which only exist due to the need to preserve food before refrigeration. Tragically, I was wrong…

    The horror….the horror…

  84. Mu Yixiao says:


    My parents never spoke about money in front of the kids. It’s only been recently that my mother has mentioned anything about money when they were first starting out.

    The mortgage on the house was twice the rent they were paying–on a house 1/3 the size, and no where near as nice. Mom was terrified about how she’d make the payments.

    There was a decrease in the number of meatballs in the spaghetti (especially since Day, apparently, ate however many she gave him), there was an increase in “Depression food”, our jeans were patched, our socks were darned, our garden was large, our freezer was full of venison, blue gill, and salmon**, and our “vacations” were going to the lake property 15-miles away (which Dad had bought before they were married, and had a hand-pump for water and an outhouse for shitting.)

    And you know what? We were damn happy.

    *Fortunately, this was the 60’s & 70’s, so we looked cool

    **Dad was an avid fisherman and hunter. And I fucking *hate* salmon–especially salmon patties served with over-cooked peas. Gah!

  85. Mu Yixiao says:


    Lutefisk eating contest…

    That’s where the first person brave enough to actually eat it wins…. right?


  86. JohnSF says:

    Just came across this picture on Twitter; an alliance fleet in the South China Sea.

    The view from a New Zealand frigate as it sails with a massive combined British, American, Dutch, Japanese and Canadian fleet sailing through the disputed South China Sea led by British aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth.

    Holy hell!
    That’s four flat-tops in that picture.

    Must be one of biggest naval combined forces exercises in recent years.

  87. Mu Yixiao says:

    My link to Depeche Mode above got me watching a bunch of their videos from Some Great Reward (the first album of theirs I heard). That was their 4th album.

    Based on their appearance in the SGR videos, I’m guessing they formed the band in kindergarten–because I swear they all look 12 years old.

  88. JohnSF says:

    Other news possibly missed this week:
    Ireland signs up for the OECD International Tax agreement.
    Important because that pretty definitely means EU consensus on this now in place; so a deal can now be put in place.

    Meanwhile, the simmering Polish/EU row over court jurisdictions erupts.

    And not great timing: Germany still in post-election transition mode; Hungary still playing silly buggers; response to Lithuanian dispute with China pending decision.
    Oh, and it looks like the UK may be about set fire to the tinder re. the Northern Ireland Protocol and CJEU jurisdiction in that.

  89. JohnSF says:

    And something else interesting, and little reported.
    It looks like the US is busy relocating military assets from Incirlik and other Turkish sites to Greece in Thrace and Crete

    Bringing some very angry responses from some more extreme Turkish politicians.
    Makes sense though, as a backstop to end possible arm-twisting by Erdogan over US/NATO operations in Syria and the Black Sea/Balkans and even Ukraine.

    Interestingly enough, France is doing the same, with new frigate and aircraft deals with Greece:

    three Belharra frigates (+1 option) with an additional option of three GoWind corvettes (+3 option) on the table. Athens already ordered 18 Rafale fighter jets and Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis announced plans to acquire six more.

    And a new defence treaty outside the NATO structure:

    Franco-Greek Defense Assistance Agreement signed in Paris includes Article 2, a mutual defense assistance clause in case one of the two countries is attacked on its territory, hence sending a clear message towards Turkey

    (not going to link for fear of too many urls annoying the guardian demons).

    Looks like both Paris and Washington coming to the shared conclusion that Turkish membership of NATO is on the verge of becoming a dead letter.

    (I would also be willing to bet a sizable amount that Paris, Athens and Washington are coordinated on this. And that this is another reason why Paris was peeved re. AUKUS)

  90. JohnSF says:

    @Mu Yixiao:
    …the first person brave enough to actually eat it wins loses.
    Fixed it. 🙂

  91. Mikey says:

    @Mu Yixiao: My German wife can’t stop saying “ewwww”… lol…I’d try it though.

  92. Mikey says:

    My wife and I got our Pfizer boosters today. We were vaccinated pretty early on (2nd shot in early February) so it was time.

    So far just the basic sore arm, I guess we’ll see how it goes later.

  93. Michael Cain says:


    Holy hell!
    That’s four flat-tops in that picture…. Must be one of biggest naval combined forces exercises in recent years.

    Playing China’s game. Demonstrating just how difficult it is to put sufficient aerial resources into the area to balance what China has demonstrated they can do. Next, China flies a Mach-5 cruise missile and scares off the players who can’t afford to risk that they can defend their carrier against that. Nibble, nibble, nibble…

  94. Slugger says:

    You don’t have to use butter to fry sauerkraut. Lard works. Goose fat (schmalz) was used by my mother. The lard version with the addition of Riesling and chunks of pork and sausage results in choucrote garni which is deelishcious (sic), but obviously not for the observant. The schmalz fried version was augmented with prune stuffed pierogi; very tasty and pareve.

  95. Mu Yixiao says:


    My German wife can’t stop saying “ewwww”

    To the fried saurkraut?

    Make some. I bet she eats it and likes it.

  96. Mu Yixiao says:


    My family is from Wisconsin. For us, it has to be butter. 😀

  97. CSK says:

    There was a German restaurant (now long gone) in Cambridge, Ma. that served its sauerkraut with chunks of pork. It was a side, but it could have been a meal in itself.

  98. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mu Yixiao: My parents never spoke about money in front of the kids.

    Yeah, same here, never argued in front of us.

    Ma was the daughter of Southern gentility, the 2nd child of 2 born in ’28. Grandpa ate a lot of crow to get thru the Depression, but at the end of it they were sittin’ pretty. My old man grew up dirt poor, the last of 10 kids born in ’23. Grandpa managed to keep working thru the depression as a steelworker in Joliet, IL but he also subsidized his income during prohibition with moonshine. (lost my old man’s brand new sled he got for Xmas when making a delivery, slipped and fell on the ice covered streets and watched a sled full of hootch slide down the hill). “Fuck it.” was all he said.

    I remember wearing Ma’s home made clothes, and hating them. Still feel guilty about that, she made them with all the love she had but I hated the stiff scratchy fabric she thought would hold up to my abuse. I never got brand new store bought clothes growing up. Always hand me downs from my older brother. I got so used to wore out clothes, by the time I was in HS I was a fashion trendsetter with my holey jeans. Unfortunately I was a decade or 2 ahead of fashion.

    It’s easy to remember all my complaints when growing up. All kids fixate on that, but I had a good childhood. I was loved. I was cared for. Anything I was lacking was only in comparison to my classmates, and none of them had more love than I did.

  99. OzarkHillbilly says:

    I love Iris Dement.

  100. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @Michael Reynolds: Michael, you are a writer and master communicator so you understand how to craft a message to achieve an intent. I find it hard to believe he didn’t get the exact reaction he intended all around. This is a not a persuasion piece of work. Its a “First of all…..” diatribe. Do you remember the SNL Skit he did with Chris Rock about the Post Trump election party? This was a spinoff commentary along those lines about similar types of people.

    I have a relative that’s a Black and LGBTQ activist–she’s Q. There is regular friction between her and her white LGBTQ activist network judging by her social media posts and her conversation at family events. Has been for several years. Look, I don’t really have a dog in the fight. I care–but not in a way that’s active or tangible. Thoughts and Prayers and all that. But I do know, there are certain groups of people that will accept no criticism without throwing around anti this and phobic that. That includes uber-progressive black people who refuse to acknowledge self defeating behaviors in the black community. So, as a bystander, I take accusations of punching down, trans phobic, etc with a grain of salt. Is it possible, sure. But its also possible that as a collective, this group will accept zero unflattering analysis of their means. In today’s environment of no apologies–I’d say its highly likely.

    As a black man, I consider no white person–of any other identity group–vulnerable. They are vulnerable compared to other white people–not compared to me. All other things being equal except race–I am the disadvantaged one.

  101. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @Jay L Gischer: I would say–no. Knowing a little bit about messaging–persuasion is clearly not the intent here. Target Audience? I’d say Black America and the White-dominated Entertainment Complex. I don’t even think he was talking to the Trans community here…about them yes.

  102. Modulo Myself says:


    Jokes and comedy have nothing to do with right or wrong. Misfortune is funny. There is an iota of humor in any kind of suffering. That’s part of how camp functions. For whatever reason Dave Chappelle is like TERFs aren’t funny (they are fucking psycho and grimly hysterical) and harmless liberal identity politics isn’t funny (like in Portlandia) but what is funny are some ugly jokes about the existence of trans people, because he has a cultural point or something.

  103. Mu Yixiao says:


    Grandpa managed to keep working thru the depression as a steelworker in Joliet, IL but he also subsidized his income during prohibition with moonshine.

    My dad was a driver and mechanic for the mob in Chicago during prohibition. He started when he was 12. He was #3 out of 7 (2nd born in the US)*

    * A nit-pick where I disagree with the US government. I say Grandpa, Grandma, and Uncle Louis were immigrants who became naturalized citizens, and Dad (along with all the other siblings) was a first-generation American. They were the first generation to be born American.

    USG says that Grandpa and Grandma were first-generation Americans–even though they were born in Croatia, and didn’t become Americans until after all of their children were born.

  104. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @Modulo Myself: Well, my personal experience with black women is that its a pretty sore spot–that trans women want to be considered qualitatively the same in “womanliness” as them. Sample size ~30ish. Maybe 2 or 3 accept the Trans view. That percentage continues to track in my social media network.

    I say that to say–Dave Chappelle is a BLACK Comic. He never had the style of humor or content as more traditional black comics that were embraced by the community–but he’s ALWAYS kept his pulse on community views. He’s always said he keeps his ear to “the streets”. The intro music to ‘The Closer’ was Mos Def–it doesn’t get any more Hip Hop than that. Black people will go along to get along on alot–but if you ask–a man is a man and a women is a women.

    I’d say Dave bogged down there–because he knows a lot of people wanted it to be said publicly. And they can’t say it without penalty. This is what made Trump popular with his supporters. Say what you want–he had his ear on the Corn Fields and said what his Tribe wanted said in public.

  105. Mu Yixiao says:

    @Jim Brown 32:

    As a black man, I consider no white person–of any other identity group–vulnerable. They are vulnerable compared to other white people–not compared to me.

    And that statement is why I can’t respect you or your position.

    Is it harder for the average black person than the average white person in this country? Unfortunately, yes. You’ll get zero argument from me on that. I wish it weren’t so, but I’m a realist.


    Have you spent months–or years–living in shelters or on the streets? Have you spent months–or years–not knowing if you’d have anything to eat on any particular day? Have you spent years not knowing if your partner–or your parent–would beat the ever-living shit out of you for no apparent reason? Have you lived in fear that your teacher, your coach, your father would get you alone in a room–again?

    Are you honestly going to say that you’re more vulnerable than those people just because you’re black?

    I was raped when I was six years old.

    Please explain to me in explicit detail how I “wasn’t vulnerable because I’m white”.

  106. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Jim Brown 32:
    I think the extreme reactions are more generational than anything. We’re from Generation Irony, these kids are sincere as fuck.

    For once I think Chappelle just played it wrong. The man has deep skills, and he knows it. He thought he could turn the tide, and he didn’t. It’s hubris.

    I think it’s a mistake to take him at face value when he seems to disregard White audiences. Up til now he’s managed to corral the gettable white audience. It’s that audience he’s talking to when he spends a huge part of his set defending himself. And he is defending himself, agile as he is, his defensiveness is clear. I suspect though that the gettable White audience is no longer gettable.

    Support for trans people comes down to a simple instinct to back the underdog. It’s the best kind of Americanism. Chappelle punched down, and kept punching down. He hit the underdog while insisting that he’s the real underdog. No rational person has any doubt that of all the evils perpetrated by this country and its colonial antecedents the worst have victimized Blacks and Indians. (‘My’ people’s main gripe in this country is that a quota system at Harvard kept a lot of Jews out, which is not exactly Greenwood.) But the take-away here is of a rich Black man going out of his way to crap on people he could have chosen to see as peers pursuing many of the same freedoms against much the same system. He could have united. I think that’s what he wanted. He could have led, but he was going the wrong way.

    Race is certainly a part of this, but so is plain old hubris.

  107. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @Beth: Beth, I always appreciate your posts on your struggle to pursue your chosen path because they are in many ways similar and in many other ways completely different than the black struggle. I do not pretend to understand your journey and to do so (I feel) would be insulting—so I won’t. And no–I wouldn’t talk shit about you behind your back for being a trans women. What harm is that doing to me? None. But frankly, am I persuaded by the arguments of Trans women and men being actual women or men? No. But what adult people believe about themselves I find, frankly, to be none of my business. And as I’ve said before–it isn’t necessary for me to believe your gender identity to engage in positive human to human interaction. For the majority of social interactions–your gender identity is mostly irrelevant to the interaction.

    I’ve learned in my time here on earth that there are things that are my job, things that aren’t, things I can control, things I can’t. It is not my purpose to validate any adult’s sense of self worth or identity. But–I will meet people where they are without judgement…probably the greatest lesson I learned from my grandfather.

    I thought the most powerful part of “The Closer” was the story he told about his Trans friend who simply wanted acknowledgement that she was having a human experience . She and I would have gotten along just fine. In Jim Brown’s universe we are all continuations of that uncaused 1st cause–whatever it is and whenever it was–slowly meandering the sine wave of human experience with all its various permutation of fractals and recursions folded in. That’s about as close of a validation as I can give.

    We can’t be naive, there is and will be collision and friction between communities in a free society–but most of what we want–to walk our path free of fear, freedom to monetize our talents, and have freedom of movement in society–isn’t asking for some utopian pipe dream. Its doable. Im glad that organizations are out there to help people on a similar path as you. I find it a sign of a calling to help when people are in a position to help people in need. Not in position? Start where you are. That goes without saying that Jim Brown path has yet to bring him in position with anyone (outwardly anyway) on a Trans path–but if that hand were dealt to me–I’d do what I (mostly) do. The right thing.

  108. Jax says:

    Ehrmagerd….my butternut squash soup is DEEEEELICIOUS!!! The eldest daughter is requesting rice to put in it instead of potatoes, but even she is down with the butternut squash. For the first time ever. 😛

  109. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @Mu Yixiao: A hit dog hollers loud doesn’t it? Your attitude is part of the problem. The “colorblind” society you’re wanting to work towards excludes the cultural preferences of non-white people. I cant’ count how many “I don’t see color” white guys I’ve had to deal with that resist any change whatsoever outside of their comfort zone or preference. Might you be the exception? Possibly but doubtful.

    I need you to understand the difference between things that are equal–and things that are the same. We are all equal–but simply not the same. We don’t prefer the same entertainment, worship, music, problem solving, etc. That’s not a problem… The problem is that collectively white people play a zero sum game economically with out groups. How many black people have you hired to do anything? We do everything white people do–but white people overwhelmingly hire other white people. Don’t need the colorblind society. This is America. Need money and will work for it.

    Lets just cut with the pretenses, educate our babies, and do business. It will be fine–trust me.

  110. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @Mu Yixiao: Do you comprehend English? Or is comparisons you have trouble with. I give a flying flip what you understand or respect–but for the purpose of clarity for our lurkers–

    Nowhere did I type that white people are not vulnerable–they are not vulnerable compared to black people. You want more granularity ok…famous black entertainers and sports personalities have more privilege that average white people.

    When we get down to the brass tax–if you called the police on me, sued me, called my job and complained about me, competed for the same job or credit.. GUESS WHO THE F&$K IS MORE LIKELY TO GET THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT?

    It aint me. This has been proven over and over with study after study. All things being equal (as I wrote in the post you misunderstood) I am the one at disadvantage. Sure a little money evens up the odds–but there is enough evidence to show that it isn’t a slam dunk even for blacks with money.

  111. Jim Brown 32 says:

    @Gustopher: I though the blackface joke was a real wild pitch–even the wife didn’t laugh. And she laughs at damn near everything DC says.

  112. dazedandconfused says:

    I don’t view Chappell as punching down, just punching back. His story of his trans friend who killed herself after being pilloried by the community seems his key example of a certain self-righteousness within it that perhaps could use a few pokes, perhaps.

    This was different, but Richard Pryor’s rage at the Hollywood Bowl wasn’t justifiable, he was a much more disturbed and angrier man than Dave is, but still had a gist of truth in it. Maybe it might help some folks understand something.

  113. James Joyner says:

    @Jim Brown 32:

    As a black man, I consider no white person–of any other identity group–vulnerable. They are vulnerable compared to other white people–not compared to me. All other things being equal except race–I am the disadvantaged one.

    This is rather clearly Chappelle’s stance as well. It’s been a common thread through all of the Netflix specials. It was actually more clear in his reaction to #MeToo and, especially, the Louis CK scandal, than in the trans commentaries.

  114. JohnSF says:

    @Michael Cain:

    …China flies a Mach-5 cruise missile and scares off the players who can’t afford to risk that they can defend their carrier against that

    Assuming the Chinese hypersonic cruise missile works as advertised.

    It looks like the main hypersonic weapon that is operable is actually a “terminal hypersonic glide re-entry” warhead for a ballistic missile.
    Which is unpleasant to have lobbed at you, but not much more so than a conventional ballistic shot.
    And if China starts doing ballistic missile pot-shots near a carrier, then that’s indistiguishable from a nuclear BM shot in the first place.
    Risky business.

    IIRC a big problem for hypersonic weapons is targeting. Similar to the “re-entry blackout” for space vehicles, a high hypersonic missile has a bowshock of ionized air that makes forward looking sensors or external guidance communications very problematic.

    They are very effective against immobile targets where you can just ely on an initial fix an then inertial tracking; but has China cracked the problems re. moving ones?

    Maybe; then again, maybe not.