Thursday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Thursday, February 23, 2023
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77 comments
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
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Anyone hear how Trump’s bizarre trip to the Ohio train derailment went? I saw a couple of headlines but couldn’t muster enough enthusiasm to read the articles, although i did wonder if he ended up in front of a crowd of regular people or just handpicked sychophants.
Just as well, he would have just told more cockamamie lies if he had responded.
@Jax:
You got it!
@OzarkHillbilly: I really wish the media and sane politicians would talk about election fraud as two categories: election fraud and voter fraud. That way lazy writers won’t have to use ” no evidence of widespread fraud” which implies there is fraud. A better and more accurate way of say it is: “There was no election fraud and very little individual voter fraud.”
@MarkedMan: He ordered 3 Big Macs and gave out hats made in China.
Oh, and he talked about how brave he was to visit a McDonalds in Ohio vs. Biden weakly taking two planes and a train to Kyiv with missiles flying overhead.
@Jax:
Missed your comment about your getting hit by a blizzard yesterday. Hope you and your livestock are past the worst and coping OK.
@Scott: Fingers crossed for Jax’s livestock. And her, she’s got a tough road to travel now.
@MarkedMan: I didn’t see/hear much about it, despite being a news junkie. Trump is a bit of a has-been right now.
@DK: Maybe. But given the way the Republican primaries work he could very well be the nominee again. It seems like a solid 30% in every state and he has it.
Last week there was a discussion of FL universities, DeSantis, and “medical records” of trans students. The reporting at the time was wanting IMO.
A few updates:
Correction to the initial story.
Here is the request for data sent to universities.
And here is an update to a related story (also discussed on OTB) about FL high school athletes and menstrual cycles. The map is telling.
Trading on Patriotism: How Extremist Groups Target and Radicalize Veterans. This article is the first in a series looking at how extremist groups target veterans for recruitment and the paths toward and away from radicalization
I hope this series actually gets national attention. But right wing extremism tends to be suppressed.
@MarkedMan: @Tony W: @DK:
Well, he donated pallets of water bottles and cleaning supplies, collected for the occasion by the Trump orgs.
He claimed no one was interested in E. Palestine till he mentioned going there.
He stated that he had nothing to do with the rollback of the environmental regulations.
You know the world’s going crazy when Republicans are crying over the plight of Palestinians.
@Scott: @JohnSF: @OzarkHillbilly:
Let’s hope JAX checks in today with a full report.
@Mimai:
I think it curious they think they would get honest answers to a lot of those questions – for example, eating habits or worrying about weight.
Los Angeles meteorologists marvel at blizzard warnings
It would not surprise me in the least if that were actually true. I’m pretty sure that there were more than a few individuals installed at the top of govt agencies doing whatever the f they wanted because trump and his minions were too busy monetizing his presidency and stroking his ego instead of presidenting.
James Webb telescope detects evidence of ancient ‘universe breaker’ galaxies
The JWST does not disappoint.
Thanks Scott. Yes, it does get suppressed. My experience was that even though the military was pretty integrated there was always a small group that was pretty bitterly racist, more than willing to make their thoughts known when they thought it safe. They would have been easy to recruit I think.
Steve
@OzarkHillbilly:
Oh, absolutely. But it was his administration, so he’s responsible.
Pupil arrested after teacher stabbed to death at school in France
Without a hint of sarcasm I can honestly say that due to our laws and culture, this is highly unlikely to ever happen here in the US.
Something wonderful from someone we all know.
Lovely pictures as well.
The sun was shining when I first got up, good enough visibility that it looks like my cow herd is where they’re supposed to be, and all the bulls and horses are accounted for (they’re all in separate pastures closer to the house that I can count them individually with the binoculars). Now it’s snowing again. I’m drinking another cup of coffee, then I’ll head out with the plow tractor and see what it’s gonna take to get the other tractor with the feeder to the cows.
Thanks for your prayers and good vibes! Gonna be a long day digging out.
@CSK: Oh I’m not saying he’s not responsible, just that he was MIA at the time.
@Mikey: Awwww shucks… kicks at the dirt….
@Jax: Do be careful. Don’t pull a Jeremy Renner.
According to CNN, Los Angeles and Ventura Counties are under a blizzard warning.
@CSK: Global warming is a hoax.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Probably Trump was in his bedroom using his executive time to watch television.
I neglected to point out that the water he’s allegedly donating to E. Palestine is TRUMP BOTTLED WATER.
@OzarkHillbilly – Great story, rescues make great pets, but at times you need patience.
@charon:
I hear ya. And still, it’s remarkable what people will honestly report on such assessments. These things tap into a deep need to tell one’s story. The trick is in designing the assessments in such a way that the data received (and interpreted) match the story told. Which gets all the more thorny when the assessor is trying to tell a story too (whether they know it or not).
@Sleeping Dog: BillieJean is a jewel, as sweet a dog as anyone could ever ask for.
@Mimai:
I suspect the main reason such questionnaires exist is CYA – protection against lawsuits.
@Mu Yixiao: I just googled Lebec to make sure I remembered the place right. I did. Amusingly, the photo Google Maps shows me is of a snow-covered mountain.
Because Lebec, you see, is in Tejon Pass, in what is often called The Grapevine. She was most likely at a rest stop I’ve stopped at in Lebec, which is quite picturesque. The altitude of Tejon Pass is over 4000 feet. So not quite so crazy to have snow there.
@Jay L Gischer:
If you read the whole article, they’re talking about measurable snow in places like Santa Clarita. Up in the mountains, they’re looking at up to 5 feet in the next day or two. And KCAL in Los Angeles is warning of snow there.
@Jax:
Stay safe out there! And warm.
Meanwhile it’s in the 70s here today and the fact we’ve had no significant winter this year is making me increasingly grumpy.
@Jax:
What I keep wondering is how cows and horses cope with cold weather.
@Kathy:
For one, just being much larger makes it easier for cows and horses to stay warm because of the cube-square law (if you double in size, you get eight times as much heat generation but only four times as much radiation surface).
The journalist Noah Berlatsky, writing for the Editorial Board, penned an article that explains exceptionally well why “culture war” issues should never be treated as distractions:
(Sorry, no link. I get the newsletter into my email inbox)
@Monala:
Who is saying this? Maybe there are a few Democratic politicians in purple areas talking that way, but it’s hardly widespread in the party. I see no evidence that Democrats or liberals broadly aren’t taking the end of Roe, the war on trans people, etc. seriously. Quite the contrary. This writer is attacking a straw man.
@Kylopod: Exactly. Questioning tactics is far, far from questioning a cause.
@Mu Yixiao: Well, it’s noteworthy for sure. But Santa Clarita isn’t exactly the lowlands either, it’s still in the mountains, over 1000 feet. The storm coming through came right from Alaska, so that’s the big picture. In my neck of the woods, there are still redwood branches lying on the ground everywhere. We had quite a blow. Lots of power outages.
I once took a drive through Death Valley at this time of the year. In the valley itself, the temp was 70 ish. An hour before that, we had a snowball fight at elevation.
Mostly I say this because non-residents don’t really hear much about all the mountains around LA. It’s all beaches and surf and sun as far as the media is concerned. There are some really significant mountain ranges there, too. Moreso than the Bay Area, which has a few, for sure.
@Stormy Dragon:
Ok. and as herd animals, their instinct is to bunch up together. That also helps to reduce heat loss.
But beyond all that?
@Kathy:
Not being a farmer, I’m not entirely sure, but I believe most owners provide them with a barn and with lots of straw to nest in for shelter (straw is a very good insulator).
@Kathy:
The don’t just huddle. They take turns being on the outside. When the outside get too cold, they move to the middle to warm up, and a warm one takes their place. They continually migrate outward until they’re at the outside again. It’s really interesting behavior.
@Kylopod: he starts the article with this quote:
He shares a few other recent quotes by Democrats.
@Kylopod: but I’ll reiterate that the reason this article struck me was how he articulated the way Democrats should talk about culture war issues: first, that they are human rights issues (Hillary Clinton is famous for saying, “Women’s rights are human rights,” but I don’t hear that sentiment enough), and second, that there is a direct link between these human rights issues and the “bread and butter” issues that people always say politicians should talk about.
I commented a few times during the 2022 election season (and quoted someone at Balloon Juice for making this point), that few pundits were pointing out that abortion is an economic issue, since being able to plan your family has a huge economic impact. Instead, you saw most pundits asking whether people would vote “based on the economy, or on culture war issues like abortion.” But they’re not separate issues. I think Democrats need to hammer that, that these issues have real-life, human and economic costs for people.
The article continues to point out that you can trace the process of demonizing and dehumanizing groups of people, to arguing that anything that helps those people (DACA, SNAP benefits, Medicaid, etc.) is evil for helping such people, setting the stage for eliminating such benefits for everyone.
@Monala: I’ll add that I don’t think Berlatsky was saying that Democrats don’t support these rights, but rather warning Democrats not to go backwards in defending human rights issues, given that this comment was made by one of the up and coming stars of the Democratic Party.
All momma cows are safe and accounted for. And very happy to see the feed tractor, I might add! The wind blew from the south, so they all huddled up on the north side of the stackyard and weathered it out. I’m really glad that we didn’t get more fresh snow than we did, the 4-5 inches that came down before the wind came up caused enough trouble. One of the main concerns about big wind and snow storms like that is when they are circling to stay warm, they sometimes get disoriented and end up crushing against a fence. If the snow is coming down very hard, they’ll press together and suffocate. That’s what happened a couple years ago in South Dakota when so many animals died….not only was it an unseasonably early and cold storm (the cattle didn’t have their winter hair yet), the feet of snow coming down on them so fast suffocated them.
@Kathy: Horses get pretty fuzzy in the winter. People who use their animals a lot in the arena keep blankets on them so they don’t get fuzzy, those horses have to be kept where there’s shelter. Ours just get fuzzy and turn their butts to the wind. Doesn’t seem to bother them too much until they get older.
@Stormy Dragon: Most of the cattle around here are open range. Some of the herds for individual ranches number in the thousands (we have 400), barn time is usually reserved for calving season, and only the cows that are definitely going to calve in the next 24 hours are brought in during inclement weather. We have a large lot around our barn that will fit the whole herd, sometimes we bring them all down if it looks like it’s gonna get below zero for days in a row, that way we can check on them at night and bring any cold babies to the house. We don’t like keeping them in that small of a space for very long, though, it gets messy when they’re all that close to each other for days on ends. Sometimes they get sick from the mess.
@Stormy Dragon: @Kathy: Generally, as long as they have food to fuel the furnace and can huddle together, they do pretty well.
@Monala:
Can you name the source site? Editorial Board of who?
@Kylopod:
Rich people care about taxes. Most of everyone else care more about LGBTQ, abortion, various religious issues (which would include private school vouchers, school prayer etc. – look at MTG’s recent brain fart) than anything else – the main sources of red-blue polarization.
(Which I find kind of sad – people definitely not caring enough about Ukraine and Russia, which I think a really important matter).
@Jax:
Thanks for the clarification. As said, I’m not a farmer and what limited experience I do have is mostly with hobby farms which I guess is not surprising run wildly differently than commercially viable farms.
@Jax: @Kathy: Horses and to a lesser degree cattle have much less blood flow to their extremities than you would expect, thus the blood is not cooled much.
@charon:
The Editorial Board is the name.
Also, the Russophilia we see on the right is largely fed by culture – specifically the Putin/Russian Orthodox policies on Christian chauvinism.
@charon:
Well, sure. Putin’s a Christian (allegedly) strongman who hates gays.
@MarkedMan: I think he’s talking about both: as a tactic, Democrats should explicitly defend “culture wars” issues as human rights issues, and should make the explicit connect with the economic and social impacts of policies that support them.
@Monala: Moreover, many times the arguments about ignoring human rights issues are made in the name of not impacting that many people and the need not to alienate the center. Indeed, yesterday’s discussion of the Seattle ordinance outlawing discrimination by caste took the same track. “This can only affect a small percentage of the workforce”–said argument being made by people who wouldn’t be likely to ever experience caste discrimination (or to experience it as the discriminators rather than the discriminatees). Even in the early debate over abortion, the anti-choice cohort “sympathized” with women who would need abortions for health reasons noting that they were still a microscopic portion of the total and “society will come up with a solution” (which as I recall–and I was there for it–was holding those women in “our thoughts and prayers”).
Now, I’m the wrong guy to lead the charge on this issue given that my motto is “making perfect the enemy of good, everyday,” but I just wish that when people are advocating that some human rights are not important in the bigger picture, they’d pick rights where they’re paying the shipping and handling rather than deciding on behalf of “the greater good.”
“Sucks to be you” isn’t just a meme; it’s a way of life.
@Jax:
@BugManDan:
Animals tend to be well adapted to the climate they evolved in. I’m not clear on where cows and horses originated. Humans arose in warm climates in Africa, before spreading all over (though Neanderthals apparently descended from some hominid outside of Africa).
I imagine a human unprotected (ie naked) out on a snow storm, even a group of humans for that matter, and it ends in horrible, painful death.
@Kathy:
Key is their much, much greater ability to turn their metabolism towards heat-generation than us tropical animals have.
@charon:
This tracks. Both Putin and the far right are fake Christians whose actions are diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
@Stormy Dragon:
@Kathy:
@Jax:
@OzarkHillbilly:
Lots of animals adapted to the climates of North America or Eurasia can quite easily handle weather that would see a naked human being dead from hypothermia within hours.
Humans are central/east African animals; and even among them, rather notably ill-adapted to weather extremes. Though I suspect a chimpanzee would probably not fare that much better.
Domesticated breeds can be rather less hardy than wild types; and IIRC domesticated cattle are derived largely from original stock from SE Europe/NW Middle East so less adapted to American blizzards than, say, bison.
@Kathy:
Domesticate horses come from two main origins.
North Caucasia, which tend to be very hardy strains. Like the moorland ponies of Britain and Scandinavia, which cope with winter on the high moors, when cattle are taken infield, close to the byres for shelter.
And Arabians, which are IIRC rather less tough.
@JohnSF:
Humans are extremely well adapted to a style of hunting called “persistence hunting,” practiced in places like the Kalahari desert and the Australian outback.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
Humans have a prodigious ability to reject body heat by sweating, much greater than any other mammal. Hairlessness is another adaptation to reject body heat. Bipedal locomotion is slow, but it is very energy efficient.
@JohnSF:
That is out of date, more modern thinking is pretty much the entire African continent.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
what you say is true, and if you left it at that I would 100% agree and there would be peace and harmony on earth. But then you equate different tactics towards the same goal or any attempt to prioritize those goals as tantamount to throwing everyone under the bus.
The bathroom issue is a perfect example. For me, the most important thing is to pass laws that protect the rights of people to use a bathroom in peace. And a couple of times it’s come up in a place where I was pretty sure there were people who were anti-trans or at least highly skeptical. Now, I could have let them state their views and then tried to present my viewpoint and tried to reason with them. But I doubt that would have had much of an impact. Instead I jumped in ahead and started questioning the motives of all these busybodies following people into bathrooms and challenging them on what gender they are. “What kind of a person does that?!”, I said. “Gives me the creeps.” Tactically, I think it was the better move. I felt I could shift their perspective a bit and make them look differently at the loudmouths they had been listening too.
@charon:
Depend on when you date the homind/homo transitions IIRC. But still, most of Africa outside the highland areas is markedly less prone to extreme cold and cold/wet conditions than Eurasia or North America.
Also, there’s some speculation that neanderthals and denisovans may be at least partially cold adapted later, sapiens-adjacent, Homo, possibly a blurring gene pool in origin with early Homo erectus moving to Eurasia almost a million years ago.
This is likely well out of date, mind. Last looked at this topic more than a decade ago, and that was in the context of much later evolution of agriculture in ME.
@charon:
Recall on this subject: a really fit human, used to hunting, can run down most animals that cannot find a refuge , especially if the quarry is injured.
The one contest in an imaginary “inter species Olympics” where humans have a fair chance to win is the marathon.
I’m not certain of this, so take with a tablespoon of salt, but I seem to recall the main challengers competitors in this class are ostriches and red kangaroos.
Anyone want to snigger at a Tesla truck having trouble with a kerb an ordinary car could cope with?
You do. You KNOW you do.
🙂
I swear my baby hatchback could handle that better, LOL.
That thing has got to be one the most ludicrous, pointless vehicles ever designed.
A “truck” with pathetic ground clearance and virtually zero cargo space, that looks like the runt-cousin of a De Lorean?
Skoda Enyaq laughs heartily
@Monala:
Whitmer is governor of a key swing state that Trump won once, that voted to the right of the nation both times, and where she vastly outperformed both Hillary and Biden, carrying several of the counties that Trump flipped. It’s perfectly fair to criticize her rhetoric, but it’s easy to understand why she engages in it. Her views aren’t representative of Democrats or liberals broadly. If anything, the fact she felt the need to say this suggests she was challenging what she saw as the conventional wisdom.
I absolutely agree. (After the Dobbs decision dropped, I commented that the SCOTUS just codified the right to abortion for rich people.) But that doesn’t mean Dems view the issue as a distraction. Anyone who thinks they do must have been asleep over the past year.
@Jay L Gischer:
I don’t ever forget about the mountains around LA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWkT0g3FrOk
That movie had such an effect on my life. lol.
@JohnSF:
Early humans and earlier hominids were thoughtless enough not to leave written records of their hunting techniques.
There’s evidence a hunt could take days, with our ancestors slowly wearing down the prey (The Simpsons did a parody of this, with Homer very slowly chasing down a giant sloth). There’s also evidence of prey being driven off cliffs or into traps.
Studies of modern hunter gatherers would suggest successful hunts were few and infrequent. Tools and clothes made from animal bone and hide lasted a long time, and could also be made of remains left by other predators. Meat was more an occasional thing to supplement a plant-based diet, even after agriculture came along.
For next weekend’s cooking I was thinking chicken milanesas in chipotle sauce. I’m also in the mood for pasta. But, as Sheldon Cooper would tell me, two tomato sauce dishes would be gastronomically redundant.
I thought of spaghetti with chipotle sauce and milanesas. Maybe mixed in, maybe the pasta on top of the chicken. I also thought of a casserole with some pasta shapes, chipotle sauce, milanesas, and cheese. When that happened, I wanted to add refried beans. I don’t think beans would go well with pasta that way. Maybe on the side with chopped onions and soy chorizo.
On the When Bad Things Happen to Terrible People front, Weinstein has been given sixteen more years of room and board at taxpayer expense.
@charon:
Persistence hunting is nothing compared to unmitigated gall hunting.
@Kathy:
Recipe:
“First, chase down a chicken…”