Tuesday’s Forum

FILED UNDER: Open Forum
Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter

Comments

  1. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Why COVID boosters weren’t tweaked to better match variants

    The simple answer: The FDA last month OK’d extra doses of Pfizer’s original recipe after studies showed it still works well enough against delta — and those doses could be rolled out right away. Now the FDA is weighing evidence for boosters of the original Moderna and Johnson & Johnson vaccines.

    “It’s less churn and burn on the manufacturing” to only switch formulas when it’s really necessary, said FDA vaccine chief Dr. Peter Marks.

    But Pfizer and Moderna are hedging their bets. They’re already testing experimental doses customized to delta and another variant, learning how to rapidly tweak the formula in case a change eventually is needed — for today’s mutants or a brand new one. The tougher question for regulators is how they’d decide if and when to ever order such a switch.

    2
  2. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Gerry Doyle
    @mgerrydoyle

    the streets and san guys know what’s up

    Mary Ann Ahern
    @MaryAnnAhernNBC
    · 14h
    NEW Chicago Vaccine Compliance:
    CPD 64.4%
    Fire 72%
    Streets & San 97.6%
    Mayor’s Office 100%

    4
  3. HarvardLaw92 says:

    Apparently Thomas Jefferson is to become an unperson too. Winston Smith may be getting busier in the coming future.

    2
  4. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Afghanistan to restart polio vaccination programme with Taliban support

    Afghanistan will restart nationwide polio vaccinations after more than three years, as the new Taliban government agreed to assist the campaign and to allow women to participate as frontline workers, the UN said on Monday. The World Health Organization and Unicef said the vaccination drive would begin on 8 November with Taliban support.

    “WHO and Unicef welcome the decision by the Taliban leadership supporting the resumption of house-to-house polio vaccination across Afghanistan,” the UN statement read. “The Taliban leadership has expressed their commitment for the inclusion of female frontline workers.”

    Maybe now Unicef and the WHO can get to work on the GOP.

    3
  5. Mikey says:

    @HarvardLaw92: They’re moving the statue to a museum. Evocations of 1984 are unwarranted.

    19
  6. Beth says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I’m shocked that the CPD numbers are that high. A good 50% of CPD is racist or fascist adjacent. See, CPD Union President Catanzara. He’s an absolute nightmare.

    I would also guess the 2.5% of streets and San either are political “no shows” or don’t actually exist.

    2
  7. de stijl says:

    I watched Midsommer last night for the first time. Wow!

    Now I need to watch it again, I think.

    1
  8. Sleeping Dog says:

    @Mikey:

    Mikey, it’s virtue signalling gone wild. Next we will be attacking MLK statutes because he cheated on his wife and maybe, Jesse Jackson for his questionable financial dealings. The Jefferson statue existed due to his contributions in the founding of the American republic, not because he was a wonderful and sinless man through 21st century eyes.

    And before you bring up Confederate statues, those men were traitors, as well as advocates of slavery after the condition had been deemed to be intolerable.

    9
  9. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Don Winslow
    @donwinslow

    EXPLOSIVE NEW VIDEO! #JoeManchinSenatorForSale

    @Sen_JoeManchin
    is blocking Joe Biden’s agenda.

    We found so much vile and provable corruption in Manchin’s life and his families life that we could not fit it all into one video. So this is just Part 1.

    Ouch. That should leave a mark.

    5
  10. CSK says:

    This is rich. Trump says that if the Secret Service had allowed him to march to the Capitol with his fan club on January 6, he would have prevented the violence from occurring.

    I’m reminded of the time Trump said that if it had been him, he’d have rushed into Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School and personally disarmed Nikolas Cruz with his bare hands.

    3
  11. Jen says:

    @CSK: Yep. From the guy who can’t get his hair wet.

    He has the self-deluded imagination of a toddler.

    3
  12. Kathy says:

    Regarding @Gustopher’s comment yesterday about a covidiot getting COVID on purpose, the link from that comment mentions he took the monoclonal antibody infusion, along with the bogus remedies.

    He’s likely to recover despite his age because 1) COVID is not overwhelmingly deadly, 2) monoclonal antibody infusions have been proven to work when taken shortly after infection. But mixing the ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, antibiotics, and zinc, is done to show these remedies work.

    They still don’t, but try and convince this covidiot or his followers. I wonder how many will go catch COVID and die if they can’t get the antibody infusion (there isn’t an unlimited supply), or if they don’t get it within the indicated time window, or it plain doesn’t work for some.

    Seriously, these people seem to be on the side of the trump virus.

    3
  13. CSK says:

    @Kathy:
    The latest hot conspiracy theory is that aspirin cures Covid, so that’s why the government and Big Pharma are suddenly discouraging aspirin use as a stroke/heart attack preventative.

  14. Kathy says:

    @CSK:

    Aspirin’s a complicated substance. It’s an effective general painkiller, a general anti-inflammatory, it prevents blood from clotting, and it’s acidic, and that’s just off the top of my head. It may also decrease fever like acetaminophen does.

    The clot preventing ability is what got it tagged as a possible preventative against heart attack and stroke. I can surmise observational and/or clinical studies have shown little or no benefit, compared to other effects, so it’s not recommended.

    This is par for the course for many drugs and substances which point to some use but later doesn’t pan out. Like immunosuppression drugs to combat AIDS.

  15. Kylopod says:

    @Kathy: Back in early 2020 which was when I had Covid, we were being advised against taking aspirin or ibuprofen, but later studies rejected that conclusion.

  16. Jen says:

    @CSK: The ridiculous thing about that is that they’ve known for YEARS that daily aspirin can lead to serious issues such as gastric bleeds and brain bleeds.

    The current revised guidelines are FINALLY coming around to what has been known for a long time. It has nothing at all to do with covid.

    1
  17. OzarkHillbilly says:

    A Missouri newspaper told the state about a security risk. Now it faces prosecution

    Missouri Gov. Mike Parson is vowing to prosecute the staff of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch after the newspaper says it uncovered security vulnerabilities on a state agency website. The governor is characterizing the paper’s actions as a hacking that the state will investigate. He said it could cost taxpayers $50 million.

    “Not only are we going to hold this individual accountable, but we will also be holding accountable all those who aided this individual and the media corporation that employs them,” Parson said at a news conference on Thursday.

    “Who do they think they are, showing how inept we are!!”

    Parson convened a news conference on Thursday at which he vowed to prosecute the alleged hacking and then declined to take questions from reporters. He said that his administration had notified the Cole County prosecutor and that the Missouri State Highway Patrol’s digital forensic unit would also be opening an investigation into “all of those involved.”

    “I’m taking action!”

    “This individual is not a victim,” he said. “They were acting against a state agency to compromise teachers’ personal information in an attempt to embarrass the state and sell headlines for their news outlet.”

    “No good deed shall go unpunished!”

    Democratic state Rep. Crystal Quade, the House minority leader, released a statement on Thursday saying Parson should thank the newspaper, not threaten it.

    “In the finest tradition of public interest journalism, the Post-Dispatch discovered a problem — one publicly discernable to anyone who bothered to look; it verified the problem with experts; and it brought the problem to the attention of state officials for remedial action,” she wrote. “The governor should direct his anger towards the failure of state government to keep its technology secure and up to date and work to fix the problem, not threaten journalists with prosecution for uncovering those failures.”

    These are Republicans, Crystal. Fixing problems is what DEMs are for.

    11
  18. Jay L Gischer says:

    @CSK: You know, there are fictional characters that make such claims, for laughs. Ted Baxter (of the Mary Tyler Moore Show) comes to mind. Some characters of Phil Hartman’s, maybe.

    I ponder why these sort of claims simply don’t provoke laughter and derision. I have a few answers: It’s entirely possible that the Trumpist media ecosystem filters these statements out. It’s also possible that the Trumpists understand it to be nonsense, but enjoy the discomfiture of “the libs” that ensues. This is the 4Chan communication strategy – everything I say is serious and nothing is. However, I think Trump himself doesn’t experience it that way.

    2
  19. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Greg Greene
    @ggreeneva

    It’s come to my attention thanks to @crampell that the Manchin proposal would make grandparents raising kids orphaned by COVID, opioids, or what have you take jobs to earn the child tax credit — and now, I just want to throw things.

    5
  20. Mikey says:

    @Sleeping Dog: Moving the statue to a museum may be “virtue signaling gone wild,” but it’s not making Jefferson an “unperson.”

    4
  21. CSK says:

    @Jay L Gischer:
    I think the Trump media ecosystem filters out anything indisputably outrageous, idiotic, or churlish he says. Did. Not. Happen. Fake News.

    If the Trumpkins allowed themselves to see what a brutish buffoon he is, their worlds would shatter.

    2
  22. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @CSK: If the Trumpkins allowed themselves to see what a brutish buffoon he is, their worlds would shatter.

    For some of them… Most? All? That is what attracts them to him. He is just like them only louder, more brutish with even more buffoonery.

    Huh. Spellcheck didn’t flag “buffoonery”. I’d have bet $10 it wasn’t a real word.

    1
  23. de stijl says:

    @Kathy:

    I once had to go the ER because I overdosed on aspirin.

    I had broken off the top part of a tooth to just above the gum line and could not get into my dentist until Tuesday (this was Thursday).

    On Sunday I got severe pain in that tooth. Really sharp. Stuff you can’t ignore. (It was an infection.) I popped some aspirin to knock it back. Dude, you can make two days I told myself.

    Couple of hours it started to get nasty hard hurting again so I did some more aspirin again.

    It hurt bad enough I could not sleep at all all night long and every two hours I popped some more aspirin.

    I started vomiting repeatedly and kept vomiting for 20 minutes or so. The first time brought up everything in my stomach (water and some half dissolved pills) after that is was dry pukes.

    I had really insistent loud droning in my ears. I wasn’t hallucinating but I was next door to it. I was super light headed and spacey.

    I knocked on my roommates door and told I him I needed to go the ER now. I was not enunciating clearly because my tooth hurt too much to close my mouth. Took a few tries to communicate.

    It turns out that taking ~20-24 aspirins in 10 hours is a REALLY BAD IDEA apparently.

    The doc called me an idiot which was totally called for. I spent most of that day in the hospital. About noon they yanked the infected tooth out, thank God.

    That was a super shitty day.

    2
  24. Gustopher says:

    @ExpensiveAndPretentiousLawSchool92: 200+ years was a pretty good run for his personhood. Perhaps when they move his statue they can place it in a better historic context.

    Ideally they would just create a new statue that better captures his complex legacy. Standing atop his slaves, raping Sally Hemings while she holds one of his illegitimate children, and using her back as a desk on which he is writing the Declaration of Independence. Other founding fathers can be watching, or boredom checking their pocket watches and just wishing he would hurry it up.

    5
  25. CSK says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    Oh, absolutely the Trumpkins revel in the fact that he’s an oaf. I should have been clearer in stating that it’s when he makes a total ass of himself that radio silence descends on MAGA World.

    They love it when Trump’s an oaf. (“He fights!”) It’s when he makes an unquestionable fool of himself–by anyone’s standards–that they pretend it never happened.

  26. Michael Reynolds says:

    @de stijl:
    I’ve had plenty of dental pain and ibuprofen works much better.

  27. Kylopod says:

    @CSK: One of the more interesting comparisons I’ve been seeing since as early as 2015 is to Rodney Dangerfield’s character in films like Caddyshack and Back to School–the boorish nouveau riche type showing up all the snooty, high-falutin snobs. I’m not saying this is an accurate comparison; I think it’s wildly delusional. But it is a useful way of understanding how he’s pictured by his fans.

    It’s actually a very old principle in comedy–you see it even in the Marx Bros. Audiences don’t mind seeing the “heroes” of a comedy engage in bullying behavior, as long as the targets of that bullying are depicted as assholes. It’s part of the cathartic effect of comedy.

    Of course a good comedy is also supposed to have wit, but that level is somewhat above that of most Trumpists. In a Jordan Klepper piece from the other day, he interviews a Trumpist lady who actually says, “Whatever he spews out of his mouth, I love it.” To a lot of these folks, it’s not what he’s saying that’s key, it’s the fact that “respectable” folks like you and me are reacting to it with derision. That’s what keeps them going. That’s why “owning the libs” always has a Calvinball quality about it–it’s a game they can’t lose because they define anything they do as owning the libs–and that’s something Trump understands very well.

    4
  28. Kathy says:

    @de stijl:

    I’ve an aspirin bottle in my desk*, standard 500 mg. pills. The label states not to take more than 8 pills per day for no longer than 3 to 5 days. Apparently it does’t take much.

    *I’ve seasonal shoulder pain due to the work I do when we’re busy. I also have Tylenol. What works best on the shoulder is an analgesic cream containing diclofenac. If that falls short, I take a keterolac pill.

  29. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Mikey:

    Thomas Jefferson isn’t worthy of a public space?

    2
  30. Mister Bluster says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:..He is just like them only louder, more brutish with even more buffoonery.

    And don’t forget when he cheats on his wife it’s with a porn star!

  31. CSK says:

    @Kylopod:
    I understand your point fully, and agree. Several years ago, Tommy Christopher asked some women Trump fans if there was anything he could say or do that would alienate them, and they replied, “No.”

    One difference–and it’s a big one–between Trump and a fictional boor such as Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School is that Trump most often punches down, as when he derided Serge Kovalesky’s disabled arm, or when he mocked women as being old or ugly or dogs. His idea of a compliment is calling someone “a young and beautiful piece of ass.”

    I don’t think we’d cheer for a movie bully who bullied kids in wheelchairs or girls in eyeglasses.
    Trump isn’t bullying assholes; he’s bullying people who can’t fight back at him.

    2
  32. Stormy Dragon says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    The Jefferson statue existed due to his contributions in the founding of the American republic, not because he was a wonderful and sinless man through 21st century eyes.

    This is whitewashing. Jefferson was widely criticized for his regressive views on slavery BY HIS CONTEMPORARIES. The idea he was only criticized “through 21st centruy eyes” is part of neo-confederate propaganda to recast the causes of the civil war by downplaying how unpopular slavery was throughout the country’s entire history.

    5
  33. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Gustopher:

    Ideally they would just create a new statue that better captures his complex legacy.

    If historical honesty is what you’re after, there are a whole lot of other complex people currently on your probable “approved” list currently being portrayed as saints whose honest portrayals you won’t like one bit. I suppose that’s different though.

    You wouldn’t have this country without Jefferson and his peers. If they, of all people, don’t belong in public spaces, then absolutely nobody does.

    5
  34. Gustopher says:

    @Jen:

    The ridiculous thing about that is that they’ve known for YEARS that daily aspirin can lead to serious issues such as gastric bleeds and brain bleeds.

    Well, yes.

    You can’t have anti-clotting benefits without a risk of bleeding. They go hand in hand. You hope the lowered risk of clots more than offsets the higher risk of bleeding.

    What did change is they got more data on the relative risks.

    I’ll be on blood thinners for the rest of my life, barring gene therapies or something. I have a much higher risk of bleeding out, brain hemorrhage, etc, but my risk of pulmonary embolism was high enough to warrant it — my blood had already clotted against me twice, one time gathering forces in a side vein in the leg, and another time launching an invasion of my lungs. Good times.

    None of this is surprising to me, including the reassessment of risks. I do mildly expect an even lower dose of aspirin to be made available, to try to balance the risks differently. The only magical thing about 81mg was that it is small enough to not annoy most livers.

  35. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    Got it. Should we just rip up the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence then? Haul them out of the Archives and just set them aflame right there on Pennsylvania Avenue?

    Since the men who wrote them have been deemed unworthy according to Comrade Stormy? How could we do anything less?

    3
  36. Kylopod says:

    @CSK:

    One difference–and it’s a big one–between Trump and a fictional boor such as Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School is that Trump most often punches down

    But that’s always a matter of perception. There’s a scene in Back to School where Dangerfield encounters a rude, blubbering fan who tells him, “You do those obnoxious commercials–you’re tall and fat!” to which Dangerfield replies, “Well you’re short and ugly.” That’s a mild example, but it shows how a movie can always stack the deck to make sure the character on the receiving end is deserving in the audience’s eyes. Trump fans engage in a similar process of rationalization, except it’s the real world they’re dealing with and what they’re doing is redefining reality so that Trump is somehow always punching up.

    1
  37. Gustopher says:

    @IPeakedWhenIGraduatedFromHarvardIn92:

    If historical honesty is what you’re after, there are a whole lot of other complex people currently on your probable “approved” list currently being portrayed as saints whose honest portrayals you won’t like one bit. I suppose that’s different though.

    I think we should be teaching the racist writings of Abraham Lincoln. Not as his entire legacy, of course, but because the story of America is of flawed people rising above themselves to do great things.

    We should teach history honestly, or as honestly as we can. We are a country founded on oppression that is striving to rise above its founders acts, to meet our founders words. And what makes our country great is that sometimes we manage it, a little bit.

    But that requires more nuance than rolling your eyes at woke lefties, so you wouldn’t understand that.

    4
  38. Kathy says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Maybe we should back away from the slippery slope argument?

    6
  39. Kylopod says:

    @Gustopher:

    I think we should be teaching the racist writings of Abraham Lincoln.

    I’ve wrestled with this question when it comes to movie biopics. I really liked Steven Spielberg’s Lincoln, and I think it did a good job of making Lincoln into a human being rather than the godlike figure he’s usually depicted as. But it also totally glossed over his racism, and implied the only difference between him and Thaddeus Stevens was that he was politically shrewd enough to be a tad cautious over the whole racial-equality thing.

    And don’t even get me started on Gandhi.

    If these films had been more honest about their subject’s flaws, they’d have been different films altogether, with much more nuanced messages.

    1
  40. JohnSF says:

    Soon you will all realise how flawed all the originators and continuators of the United States were, and that you have no ethical option but to return to your true allegiance to Her Majesty.
    🙂

    5
  41. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Gustopher:

    Sure, just as soon as we also start teaching that MLK was a serial adulterer, Thurgood Marshall fed information about suspected communists to Hoover and HUAC, Ted Kennedy was a cocaine addict, JFK and Jackie had their own little Dr. Feelgood who (with his sticky sticker) went everywhere they did dispensing happy, and so many more. Of the men we consider to be the primary founders – George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Adams, John Jay, and James Madison, all of them were slaveholders during their lifetimes. Point being? All were imperfect people who did great things: things that deserve to be honored despite their imperfection.

    By your standard, we have a whole lot of statues to be taking down and names to be chiseling off of buildings. Let’s get started.

    3
  42. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Kathy:

    Why? Are we moving towards more or less moderation in this quest to sanitize public spaces?

    1
  43. Stormy Dragon says:

    @Kylopod:

    The other thing is that drama is based on conflict, social relations usually aren’t. There’s plenty of characters we may find entertaining as vicarious observers who we would find intolerable if we encountered them in our actual lives.

  44. CSK says:

    @Kylopod:
    Sure, but the “rude, blubbering” fan took the initiative by first insulting Dangerfield as fat. That’s not what Trump does.

    In any event, IIRC, Dangerfield redeems himself eventually. Trump never does.

  45. Mikey says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Thomas Jefferson isn’t worthy of a public space?

    Wouldn’t a museum be more of a public space than the city council’s chambers? It’s certainly more accessible to the general public.

    4
  46. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Mikey:

    Why not both? Are we saying that the author of the DoI and one of the primary architects of the Constitution isn’t worthy of a city council chambers, where the very democracy he helped found is practiced?

    If he isn’t, then who is? Who should we replace him with that’s more worthy?

    1
  47. Kylopod says:

    @CSK:

    Sure, but the “rude, blubbering” fan took the initiative by first insulting Dangerfield as fat. That’s not what Trump does.

    His fans would disagree. His comments on the disabled reporter were preempted by the reporter questioning his claim that Muslims cheered on 9/11. Of course the reporter was right and Trump was lying, but in the Trumpist world Trump was right and the reporter was doing fake news. So in the Trumpist world it was the reporter who took the initiative by insulting Trump.

    Of course the Trumpists also deny he made fun of the reporter’s disability–so at least they’ve got enough standards to realize that behavior is wrong (or at least socially unacceptable).

  48. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Gustopher:

    Should we move this, or this, or this to a museum as well?

    That might be a little unwieldy though, given the size. Perhaps just a little bit of explosives and then we can rename them for folks more worthy than they?

    1
  49. wr says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “If historical honesty is what you’re after, there are a whole lot of other complex people currently on your probable “approved” list currently being portrayed as saints whose honest portrayals you won’t like one bit.”

    How thoughtful of you to invent a list of people that Gustopher must approve of and then also invent the ways that he sees them in order to prove that your view is superior to his. It really is much easier to argue when you can make up both sides of the discussion. Does that work in court?

    5
  50. wr says:

    @HarvardLaw92: What are you so afraid of, HL? Could it be that if people start thinking that rich white men aren’t perfect, they might lose a little worship for folks like you?

    2
  51. CSK says:

    @Kylopod:
    Of course Trump’s fans would disagree. That’s why they’re his fans. Anyone who dares question Trump is anathema.

    I recall those middle-aged or elderly overweight women who paraded around Trump rallies wearing t-shirts that read: TRUMP CAN GRAB ME BY THE PUSSY ANYTIME. Nothing quite like degrading one’s self.

    1
  52. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @wr:

    I simply listed some great people, who did great things – but who were also deeply flawed individuals – and explained, factually, how they were flawed. I’m not sure it’s a stretch to presume that he would think highly of MLK and Thurgood Marshall, but if you say so. I’m not making up anything, just investigating the potential presence of hypocrisy.

    You really do have a talent for (attempting to) put words in other people’s mouths, then acting as though they said them in response. Your own little internal narrative, as it were.

    You should find ways to contain your inability to control your dislikes and passions. As it is, they clearly appear to control you instead.

    4
  53. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @wr:

    What are you so afraid of, HL? Could it be that if people start thinking that rich white men aren’t perfect, they might lose a little worship for folks like you?

    I’m not even going to pretend to begin understand where that little bit of insanity & character assassination came from. You seem to have moved from putting words into other peoples’ mouths to inventing whole new personalities and narratives for them. May I gently suggest seeking help?

    1
  54. Kathy says:

    @Kylopod:

    The thing with movies, and fiction as well, is they require at least one protagonist one can root for.

    Consider 1984. It’s all told from Winston’s point of view. Now, imagine an alternate version told from O’Brien’s point of view. Orwell could still lay out the methods of an oppressive, totalitarian society (albeit with less emphasis on how it affects its subject/victims), and made his case against it.

    Would you root for O’Brien? In the end, all other things being equal, he wins.

  55. JohnSF says:

    While doing a bit of research on energy sources, which is a topic of massive interest in the UK right now, given our methane supply costs have risen 183% since August and electricity recently spiked to over £400/MWh, came across some interesting speculation by Charles Stross re. Elon Musk’s medium term plans.

    He pointed out that the Starship system is capable of massive payload lift (100 to 250 tonnes depending on mode) and also amazingly rapid turnaround times:

    …even crazier, the Starship system is designed for one hour flight turnaround times, comparable to a refueling stop for a long-haul airliner. The mechazilla tower designed to catch descending stages in the last moments of flight and re-stack them on the pad is quite without precedent in the space sector, and yet they’re prototyping the thing. Why would you even do that? Well,it makes no sense if you’re still thinking of this in traditional space launch terms…

    Stross reckons that the only thing that makes sense for a system like this is for a Manhattan Project/Apollo Program scale approach to setting up a solar power satellite array.

    I’m not sure if the sustained launch scale and costs can beat other options, but I suspect Charlie is right about what Musk is thinking.
    (Then on to God-Emperor of Mars, baby!)

  56. JohnMcC says:

    @JohnSF: Once there was a time I’d have replied something like ‘wow, do you think we could get Great Britain to take us back? Great!’….

    Recently, I dunno….

  57. JohnMcC says:

    @JohnSF: You mention a crisis in “methane” as part of your energy crisis. You mean the CH4 molecule? Don’t mean to ask stupid questions but got caught out by the difference between ‘parafin’ and ‘kerosene’ once. And methane is mostly mentioned as a waste product and troublesome global warming gas. Hadn’t heard of it being used as fuel.

  58. dazedandconfused says:

    @CSK:

    Another analogy is the pro wrestler “good guy”, whose bragging and outrageous behavior is not only tolerated, it’s loved because he’s fighting against a caricature of pure evil in the “bag guy”. This is the image of non-Republicans installed in FOX viewers and Limbaugh listeners for a generation. Trump’s appeal isn’t about him, it’s the existence of a terrible, abominable enemy.
    Trump seems to be aware he must continue to fight, as in be a jerk, or his fans will leave him. Man who ride crazy train can’t get off.

  59. Mikey says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Why not both?

    That would be an option (they could keep a replica of the statue in one of the locations, for example). It’s not the option the city council chose.

    Are we saying that the author of the DoI and one of the primary architects of the Constitution isn’t worthy of a city council chambers, where the very democracy he helped found is practiced?

    The elected city-level representatives of the residents of NYC decided after a two-decade discussion that a statue of Jefferson would be better situated in a museum than in their legislative chambers. Whether you agree with them or not, their decision does not remotely resemble a 1984 “unperson”-ing.

    5
  60. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @JohnMcC:

    Pretty sure that the largest constituent component of natural gas is, in fact, by far methane.

    2
  61. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Mikey:

    Whether you agree with them or not, their decision does not remotely resemble a 1984 “unperson”-ing.

    In your opinion, which is fine. In mine, they’re doing exactly that. The (predictable) commentary from a few of the more outspoken, as it were, members of that board made very clear why they wanted it removed.

    Which is their right to choose, I suppose, but they aren’t likely to like where this trend leads to. Note that I’d be the first one in line with a crowbar ready to smack anybody who tried to remove a statue of Thurgood Marshall, but it is no longer a stretch to say that someone probably will try. Once we’re decided that it’s ok to sanitize public honorarium, every one of them becomes fair game.

    2
  62. Kathy says:

    @JohnSF:

    Interesting read.

    I’d temper my expectations, though. For one thing, there’s no concrete evidence Musk is even contemplating this scenario. For another, Starship right now has no capabilities because it doesn’t exist.Granted Musk and SpaceX have been better at developing and implementing reusable launch systems at large scale, but that doesn’t mean all their projects in development will work as well.

  63. Kylopod says:

    @Kathy:

    The thing with movies, and fiction as well, is they require at least one protagonist one can root for.

    That depends. If the movie’s about Hitler or Stalin and isn’t being produced by, say, the Daily Stormer, it’s not going to want us rooting for the character. Movies like Lincoln and Gandhi are furthering a narrative in which they want us not just sympathizing with these figures but regarding them as Great Men whom we are expected to admire if not worship. Even knowing all I know about Lincoln, I still think he was a great man. But I’m fully aware that if I were to present the same set of facts to someone else, they might not share that conclusion. That’s why these films are very selective in what they show.

    Now, imagine an alternate version told from O’Brien’s point of view.

    I would be totally unsurprised if I heard someone was doing a film with just that premise today. But even in all these “villain stories” that have been in vogue over the past decade or so, they’re trying to make us understand and perhaps sympathize with the villain to a degree while not necessarily approving of the character’s actions.

  64. JohnSF says:

    @JohnMcC:
    Natural gas as processed delivered for domestic and industrial purposes is basically methane plus an “odorant” additive (so people can easily detect leakage).
    Natural gas as recovered may be IIRC 70% to 90% methane, with the rest being various combinations of ethanes, propane, butane, some hydrogen sulfide in some cases, etc.
    These additions are removed before the gas is suitable for the domestic distribution pipe network.

    If memory serves the extracted propane is used for houses that use “canister” rather than “mains” gas.

    I assume the same is the case in the US.

  65. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: Suddenly???? Thirty-some years ago, the practice was already that if you don’t already take aspirin for your heart, don’t start, and if you develop complications like A-fib, stop. I remember being told to stop taking the “baby aspirin” I was taking “because it isn’t doing anything” (I hadn’t had a heart attack–and still haven’t had one decades later).

    1
  66. JohnSF says:

    @JohnMcC:
    Fair point.
    Perhaps Canada could be persuaded to act as foster-parent during our present unfortunate indisposition?

  67. senyordave says:

    @Sleeping Dog: MLK and Jefferson. Transgressions – cheating on wife vs. owning human beings (and raping Sally Hemmings over a long period of time, she wasn’t his mistress, she was his property). Just saying.

    1
  68. JohnMcC says:

    @JohnSF: Thank you for your participation in my continuing education!

    1
  69. Kathy says:

    @JohnSF:

    Have you ever seen a boa try to swallow an elephant?

    First, Her Majesty would find herself out on the street in short order, as turning the UK into a Republic-Not-A-Constitutional-Monarchy would take precedence. Next, Boris might weather a vote of no confidence, as no MPs on the Republican-Conservative block, now larger due to gerrymandering, would vote no confidence. He may as well become PM For Life, or until Tiny Donald decides to run. You can be sure he’d have the support of the House of Donors, too.

  70. CSK says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:
    This is the first I can recall that being publicly announced, particularly in such strong terms. In any case, I’ve been prescribed it, so until I hear otherwise, I’ll continue to take it.
    .

  71. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @senyordave:

    and raping Sally Hemmings over a long period of time, she wasn’t his mistress, she was his property)

    As I understand it, the historical evidence in support of both alternatives (Jefferson did father children with her / Jefferson did not) is thin, at best, and mostly a matter of subjective interpretation as to which conclusion is reached / preferred. The available DNA evidence can not conclusively establish Jefferson as the father, merely someone in his familial male line (of which there were several present at / adjacent to Monticello besides TJ who, based on the DNA, equally could have been the culprit or culprits). That’s all the factual evidence there is to go on – the rest appears to be premised on filling in the blanks (on both sides).

    So perhaps it’s better to say “may have raped Sally Hemmings over a long period of time”. There is also the possibility that the relationship was consensual, but given the power dynamic, if Jefferson did have intercourse with her, it would unavoidably have to be characterized as rape. The problem is that we don’t really have enough conclusive evidence to say with certainty whether it happened either way.

    I won’t disagree that he owned human beings, but as I said, he had a lot of company among the Founders in that regard. You’ll be disposing of / relocating a whole lot of statues (and a few national memorials) besides his.

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  72. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @HarvardLaw92: When somebody credible actually proposes knocking down ANY of those buildings, come back and talk to me. Beyond that:

    1. I agree that a museum is an adequately public space (maybe more so–how many people visit the museum against the city council chambers?).

    2. I’m okay with the city council members deciding what they want to have in their chambers. I don’t know why nobody has cared before (and don’t care) or even whether anybody has in the past, but that was then, this is now. When a different city council decides something else, they will make additional changes. It’s called evolution–and I understand many people around these parts believe in it.

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  73. wr says:

    @Kathy: “Would you root for O’Brien? In the end, all other things being equal, he wins”

    It would be a very different book, but possibly a powerful one. To put you in the POV of the bad guy and make you root for him, only to reorient you at the very end… if you can pull it off, you can give the reader a real understanding of the people they oppose. But if you’re not good enough, you just end up writing propaganda for the regime…

  74. Kathy says:

    @Kylopod:

    You know, I can’t quite recall seeing any villain-centered movies at all. I suppose you mean movies like Venom or Joker? If so, I didn’t see them.

    I did see The Death of Stalin recently. In part, I’d say the movie is about the politburo making Beria the new villain the rest can unite against. To me, they were all villains. I don’t think any comes off well at all, which may have been the intention of the moviemakers.

  75. wr says:

    @HarvardLaw92: “Note that I’d be the first one in line with a crowbar ready to smack anybody who tried to remove a statue of Thurgood Marshall, but it is no longer a stretch to say that someone probably will try.”

    You know, maybe if people had put up more statues of Thurgood Marshall, there wouldn’t be so much concern over the statues that do exist. As it is, there are three times more statues of Jefferson Davis than there are of Marshall… and a dozen more of Jefferson.

    Kind of hard to start demanding people pull down statues that don’t exist.

    1
  76. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @HarvardLaw92: For some reason, I’m finding it difficult to swallow that the guy who defended the hard ride of that black guy in Baltimore would be “first in line to smack” someone trying to remove the statue of ANY black person from ANYWHERE.

    Just sayin…

    3
  77. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    When somebody credible actually proposes knocking down ANY of those buildings, come back and talk to me.

    Nothing happens until it has. It’s foolish to think that no one ever will.

    I agree that a museum is an adequately public space (maybe more so–how many people visit the museum against the city council chambers?).

    Given who we’re discussing, I’d opine that there is no inappropriate public space in which to honor the man.

    As for the rest, fine with me. Just don’t complain when they come for something that you do care about enough to be upset about it. If the Founders are on the table, then nothing else is sacred / off-limits.

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  78. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    I’m finding it difficult to believe that anyone would attempt to equate Thurgood Marshall (one of my heroes) and Freddie Gray (a heroin dealer), but you do you I guess. As far as I’m concerned, they might as well have come from different planets.

    2
  79. Kylopod says:

    @Kathy:

    You know, I can’t quite recall seeing any villain-centered movies at all. I suppose you mean movies like Venom or Joker?

    And the Star Wars prequel trilogy. And Maleficent and Cruella and all those other films from the standpoint of classic Disney villains. And Wicked (not a movie yet, but a novel and smash Broadway hit).

    Now, granted, a lot of these are based on movie franchises directed at children or teenagers (which is one of the reasons I find the trend somewhat baffling), which would not be the case for a story about O’Brien.

  80. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @CSK: I wouldn’t advocate otherwise. I’ve live for a long time so far primarily from agreeing with my doctors on treatment. It works well.

  81. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @wr:

    There are actually quite a few statues of Marshall. That said, you’ve made an argument for more statues of Marshall, rather than fewer of Jefferson. I agree with that.

  82. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @HarvardLaw92: No, I simply compare your words. And thanks for the admission that there are good nCLAAAANNNGs and bad ones. Everything leads to greater clarity.

    1
  83. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker:

    I fully agree that there are good people and bad people. Thank you for saying that.

    1
  84. JohnSF says:

    @Kathy:

    “…no concrete evidence Musk is even contemplating this scenario…”

    True enough.
    But if Stross is right about the scale of infrastructure Musk has in mind (especially the turn-round time aspect) what else could make sense?
    As he points out, Musk at one time scorned powersats; but the change in cost and weight to power ratios of photoelectrics may have changed his mind.

    Personally, I’m a bit dubious, for a variety of reasons.

    If I had my way the UK would have stopped dicking about and been building 2nd/3rd generation AGR nukes since the 1990’s.
    The US probably doesn’t need them, due to higher insolation.
    With only 8hours of daylight at a maximum of 46.56° elevation, that is a December average insolation in London of around 0.75 kWh per square metre per day. (Can’t remember if that figure allows average cloud or assumes clear sky)
    By comparison Albany, New York gets about 3kWh/m2/day in winter.
    Los Angeles in summer around 6kWh/m2/day. I think. (Figures from old scribled notes).

    Given that our winters often see prolonged periods of cold but still air (hence our being prone to mist and fog) wind and solar can’t get it done.
    And stored renewables are still hopelessly expensive.

    Hence Germany burning lignite on a massive scale: around 200 million tonnes CO2 emissions in 2020.
    Energiewiende my a$$.
    “Atomkraft nein danke.” Twits.

    1
  85. Jay L Gischer says:

    The question I ask myself of this sort of historical situation is this: “If I were in that guys (or rarely, that woman’s) shoes, would I have acted differently?”

    Most of the time, I don’t really know. Cultural norms are a powerful force. Yeah, some can act against it, but would I have been able to, in that situation, at that time? I don’t know. I think humility is a more valuable tool here than righteousness.

    Oh yeah, now I think it’s wrong. But what would I have done in the day. Would I, for instance been one of that rare, but existant, breed of Southern slaveholder that manumitted all his slaves and took up another line of business entirely? Maybe, but asserting that I definitely would have strikes me as the same sort of thing as declaring that if I had been on scene at Stoneman Douglas, I would have charged the dude and disarmed him.

    I mean, yeah, maybe. But then, maybe not.

    So, by all means, I’m happy to look at all the flaws of founders. I’m happy to denounce certain acts and decisions. As a white person, I feel a push to separate myself from all the terrible racial injustice that has been advanced by other white people in America over the centuries.

    And yet, I feel that yielding to that push is more likely to keep things the same, because its a form of denial. The one thing I have some ability to change is me, and even that’s not easy. So I will continue to work on me, and making me better, and less racist. That’s where I want to keep my focus.

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  86. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @JohnSF:

    Hence Germany burning lignite on a massive scale: around 200 million tonnes CO2 emissions in 2020.

    They also have an unfortunate tendency to denude whole forests in the Southern US, import and burn the wood as fuel for power generation, then call it “green*”. If the consequences to those areas being denuded weren’t so horrific, it would be laughable (instead of simply nauseating).

    * legit – they characterize the material as biomass.

    3
  87. Kathy says:

    @wr:

    Not quite what I had in mind.

    If we follow the story from the book, it would begin with O’Brien learning Winston bought a blank diary. O’Brien would next learn what Winston is writing, and things proceed from there. You’d know O’Brien was an oppressor right from the start.

    I was thinking of something that often happens when I read history. I tend to sympathize with the subject of study to some extent. Like the plucky Romans tackling the more powerful (but really rather small) Etruscans, even though the Romans themselves were quite terrible by present standards.

  88. Roger says:

    @HarvardLaw92: I’m curious about your claim that John Adams owned slaves. Do you have a source for that?

    In a letter he wrote in 1801, Adams said “Although I have never Sought popularity by any animated Speeches or inflammatory publications against the Slavery of the Blacks, my opinion against it has always been known and my practice has been so conformable to my sentiment that I have always employed freemen both as Domisticks and Labourers, and never in my Life did I own a Slave.”

    Adams favored gradual emancipation rather than the upheaval that would come with immediate abolition. We can argue about whether or not that was a sufficiently moral position, but it’s a far cry from being a slaveholder. The cry that “they all did it” isn’t much of an excuse especially when (1) they didn’t all do it and (2) many who did (e.g. Franklin) repented and quit doing it.

    2
  89. Kurtz says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Apparently Thomas Jefferson is to become an unperson too. Winston Smith may be getting busier in the coming future.

    They’re not planning a spectacular television special showing them parading it through the streets to a guillotine. Nice, tight shot of the head rolling into a basket. Ends with immolation of the corpus.

    They’re putting it in a museum. It’s a dignified place for a major political figure, no?

    1
  90. JohnSF says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    Agreed, but I can hardly bash the Germans for that, when the UK is doing exactly the same damn stupid thing at the Drax power plants.

    I’ve said before, and I’ll say again: the country with the best decarbonised energy policy in Europe is France, with 80% electricity from nuclear power.
    CO2/capita of c.5 tonnes/yr; compared to USA 16, Japan 9.5, Germany 9.

    Well, aside from mountain zones like Norway and Switzerland that have hydropower to err, burn 🙂

    3
  91. Kathy says:

    @JohnSF:

    But if Stross is right about the scale of infrastructure Musk has in mind (especially the turn-round time aspect) what else could make sense?

    If he’s obsessed with colonizing Mars, maybe components for Lunar settlements and factories to make the stuff you need to colonize Mars. Not that Musk has said anything about Lunar settlements.

    I’ve long since learned not to grab on to what makes sense to me, just because I can’t imagine an alternative, sensible or not, someone else surely has come up with.

  92. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Roger:

    I went back to my sources and found one (the one I utilized) to be in error. Adams didn’t directly own slaves – mea culpa – but apparently did utilize slaves as servants and laborers while in the White House (presumably the owners of these slaves were paid for their labor, but the distinction would be a small one). There is also evidence that Abigail Adams family did in fact own slaves at some point, but freed them. There is a more murky situation where John Quincy Adams is concerned. History is never as neat and clean as we’d like for it to be.

    2
  93. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Kurtz:

    They’re putting it in a museum. It’s a dignified place for a major political figure, no?

    So putting it in a city council chamber was undignified? Just making sure I understand.

    3
  94. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @JohnSF:

    Agreed, 100%.

    2
  95. JohnSF says:

    @Kathy:
    Mars indeed.
    That’s why i think this may be what he’s thinking: because it enables Mars.

    The great thing about powersats from the Musky pov is they would give an economic basis for the spacecraft fleet and infrastructure (esp orbital support services) needed for a genuine Mars settlement effort.
    As opposed to a one off “dump and die” job.
    It will need a support on the order at least of the Antarctic base system which IIRC is around 10,000 tonnes a year.

    Plus the sheer money:
    Being the powersat electric sheikh of the 21st Century with revenues of multiples of hundreds of billions would enable Elon to afford guitars for Mars out of the petty cash.

    Well, not exactly petty. 🙂 But affordable.
    Without wealth on a scale even Tesla can’t provide, (given that VAG are about to eat his lunch) Mars may be a bit of a reach.

    1
  96. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @Roger:

    The cry that “they all did it” isn’t much of an excuse especially when (1) they didn’t all do it and (2) many who did (e.g. Franklin) repented and quit doing it.

    It’s not that simple. As best we can tell, at least 26 of the 55 delegates to the constitutional convention owned slaves. Others didn’t directly, but profited from the trade (for example, Morris didn’t actually own slaves, but he did own a slave ship and invested in plantations which utilized slaves), so – again – the distinctions are small ones. Similarly, Roger Sherman, who didn’t own slaves, was the principal architect of the 3/5ths compromise, so not owning slaves, in and of itself, wasn’t a bar to benefiting from the practicalities of tolerating slavery or a good guy / bad guy line in the sand.

    Franklin didn’t become actively abolitionist and free his slaves until very late in his life, in his 70s, and as best we can tell, still continued to profit from the trade as his newspaper continued to regularly run advertisements for the sale / purchase of slaves & contracts for indentured servants. I’m not sure that what was essentially a closing in on his deathbed conversion (and an imperfect one at that) really qualifies.

    2
  97. JohnSF says:

    @HarvardLaw92:
    To follow up on my, perhaps rather inappropriate, earlier semi-joke about the founders and their times, I was indirectly trying to make a point similar to that I think you are highlighting here.

    That the 13 Colonies that became the United States had been inextricably embedded in the British North Atlantic imperial trading system.
    One that in turn had been forcibly wrested from its Spanish and Portuguese originators.
    Which in turn had the slave economy as it’s essential foundation.

    The interlinked “triangular trades”:
    – slaves from Africa to the Americas,
    – sugar/molasses from the West Indies, by far the most lucrative imperial product, to North America and Europe,
    – rum, tobacco, fish, furs and lumber from North America to Europe, West Indies and Africa
    manufactures from England to Africa- all generating profit at every step of the interlocking cycles
    – and the accrued profits in England financing the massive capital investments made in sugar production, ships and slaves.
    This system permeated almost all of the political elites of North America, and much of that of Britain as well.

    It was arguably only the American Revolution that disconnected Britain from the “First Empire” enough to make moves to abolition of the slave trade a political and economic possibility.

    And that same disconnection, along with western expansion, enabled the new United States to itself begin to develop a self-sustaining continental political economy beyond that of the North Atlantic system.

    I have read somewhere ( oh my woeful memory) a speculation that both early Jeffersonian and Hamiltonian ideas were both, in part, perhaps attempts to escape the grip of the slave economy on post-Revolutionary America.
    Jefferson’s ideal of “yeoman” self-sufficiency by minimizing the corruptions of commerce, which in the infant US could hardly be detached from plantation production.
    Hamilton’s “commercial” expansionism on the other hand could replace the plantation base by economic expansion.

    4
  98. Kathy says:

    Now, this is the kind of thing the US Congress ought to be doing.

    A Congressional panel in Brazil may recommend “mass homicide” charges against Jair for his role in mismanaging and downplaying the pandemic.

    Sure, in these hyperpolarized times, it would be abused. But no one should skate on criminal charges just because they won the Electoral College.

    It may also seem like an open invitation to hang criminal charges on any national leader who didn’t handle the pandemic well enough. But there’s a big difference between not doing well in an uncertain situation with plenty of unknown factors, and to do what Jair, Donnie,Manuel Andres, and many others, like Boris, did, which is to downplay the risk, refuse to encourage prevention and mitigation, and set obstacles to the health authorities when they are trying to control a pandemic.

  99. Kathy says:

    @JohnSF:

    Maybe.

    You do need a lot of pre-existing infrastructure in space to support missions to Mars. I see the Moon as a better launching point for various reasons, but you’d still need space stations and other stuff up in orbit.

    With Musk, who knows. Maybe even he doesn’t know.

    BTW, I think Starship is an upper stage, with engines and fuel tanks, on top of a very powerful, very large first stage. Kind of a like a bigger, wingless shuttle, with a fully reusable system. That would be revolutionary.

  100. HarvardLaw92 says:

    @JohnSF:

    Well said. Completely agree

    1
  101. HarvardLaw92 says:

    On another note: Republican Rep. Jeff Fortenberry was indicted today on three counts, all felonies.

    3
  102. Just Another Ex-Republican says:

    One of the things we tell ourselves in the modern age is to respect other cultures and not “Westernize” them. But we can be amazingly disrespectful of our own history. The fact that our Founders were flawed (frequently seriously, by modern standards) does not automatically mean they should be disdained and demeaned. They were creatures of their time. Nothing more, nothing less. And like it or not, none of us (Americans, anyway 🙂 ) are here today without their actions. Teaching their full history is important, for sure, but it would be wrong to throw out the good and focus solely or primarily on the bad.

    On the other hand, there is no rule that says a statue of Jefferson must be eternal and ever-present. That because it was put there 100 years ago (in NYC–he was a Virginian, remember) it must stay forever in the same location because…tradition something something something. It being moved from one city council chamber (out of hundreds of thousands in the US), to a different public space (whether a museum or park), is hardly trying to make him a non-person. Get a grip. Museums and parks rotate displays and redesign their layouts fairly regularly. Our national museums have millions of pieces of art, a select few of which are on public display or in the White House. Does rotating them in an out make the ones going out non-persons? Of course not.

    As for the silly slippery slope argument that this will lead to the Washington monument being blown up…come on. I bet some idiot has already proposed it actually–doesn’t mean it’s going to actually happen. I find another example far more interesting in the intellectual sense. Stone Mountain. I completely agree with removing Confederate statues from public parks and buildings. It’s long overdue in fact. Those traitors never deserved the public adulation. Put some in museums and destroy the rest (they were mostly mass produced crap). But Stone Mountain is not just a monument to white power, it’s also a tremendous, unique, and irreplaceable artistic achievement. Does the value it have in that context, and the possibility of using it for better historical presentation, warrant keeping and maintaining it? Or should we blow it up? We certainly got upset when the Taliban blew up irreplaceable statues of the Buddha carved from a mountain.

    In the end a single statue of Jefferson in NYC is not particularly unique or noteworthy. I doubt anyone posting here was even aware THIS particular statue existed before the last couple days.

    Now let’s talk about Columbus Day again…

    8
  103. Gustopher says:

    @TediousLaw92:

    MLK was a serial adulterer

    What’s that got to do with anyone other than his family and people he screwed?

    As for the rest of the positions you think I hold, you’re making shit up to feel good about yourself or something. Woo, big man graduated from a decent school thirty years ago, and now makes up strawman arguments on the internet. Very exciting.

    I just think historical figures need to be treated with the nuance to show their weaknesses as well as their strengths, and not so much reverence that people lionize them while ignoring the flaws.

    Jefferson is a man whose words and actions were completely at odds with each other, and we shouldn’t be separating them entirely. If some city council doesn’t want a statue of a whitewashed slaveholder, good for them. Tear down the icons, and put up statues of the people — the complicated, and flawed and contradictory people. Give ’em context.

    But that requires a touch more nuance then they taught at Harvard Law more than a quarter century ago, I guess. Maybe you should get out more, read a book that doesn’t just tell you the things you already know or something, ya git.

    1
  104. Kurtz says:

    @HarvardLaw92:

    Look, I get your perspective. The point is that they’re not dismantling it, the apparent goal to put it somewhere accessible to the public.

    The 1984 reference is ridiculous.