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Jeb Bush Was a Naughty Boy

Jeb Bush

Taegan Goddard passes on a Boston Globe profile on Jeb Bush’s formative days as a student at Andover, an elite preparatory school that indicates he was something of a dullard and a jerk.

These sort of things are pro forma for presidential campaigns and goodness knows there’s lots of irrelevant stories written—certainly including here at OTB—during the silly season. That said: So what?

That is, Bush turns 62 in a few days. He’s spent almost the entirety of his adult life in the public eye, including eight years as governor of one of our largest states. Surely, that’s a better frame of reference on his character and suitability for the presidency than whatever he did or didn’t do as a young teenager away from home for the first time?

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About James Joyner
James Joyner is the publisher of Outside the Beltway, an associate professor of security studies at the Marine Corps Command and Staff College, and a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. He's a former Army officer and Desert Storm vet. He earned a PhD in political science from The University of Alabama. Views expressed here are his own. Follow James on Twitter.

Comments

  1. grumpy realist says:

    File this one under “wanting Obama’s kindergarten records”, Marcus….

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 21 Thumb down 2

  2. humanoid.panda says:

    Well, it doesn’t say us much about Jeb, that much is true.

    However, this story teaches us much about law and order politics, and the war on drugs, and people who weren’t angels in their youth, and the structure of opportunity and privilege in the United States.

    He also aspires to be the leader of the party of people who argue that non of those things are real or significant.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 30 Thumb down 4

  3. Mu says:

    Rich kids at prep school for rich kids can be jerks? Hard to imagine.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  4. Gustopher says:

    It’s relevant in that he has presumably learned some kinds of lessons from his youth.

    How would the policies he supports now have affected the pot-smoking, underaged drinking bully that he was back then? Has he learned empathy for the people he was a jerk to, and to mildly messed up kids like he was then? Has he expanded that empathy to those outside of prep schools?

    When he looks at the escapades of himself, his brother George and his brother Neil, which ones does he think should have resulted in jail? How does he feel about Neil entering beginner’s tennis tournaments just so he can win? What about Neil’s role in the S&L crisis?

    Does he recognize the number of breaks he has gotten in life because of family’s wealth and political power? Does he feel a responsibility to those who don’t have it?

    These are all good questions, but to ask them in context we need things like the article being scoffed at.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 35 Thumb down 2

  5. gVOR08 says:

    I would probably pay this little mind if it weren’t frighteningly reminiscent of his brother, the results of whose administration are before us.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  6. sarah says:

    hmmm, depends. Was he torturing animals or some such behavior?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 1

  7. anjin-san says:

    Well, when he brother was first running for President, there were indicators that he was a dullard and a jerk. After he was elected, we found out it was true.

    Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 30 Thumb down 5

  8. OzarkHillbilly says:

    Does his rap sheet begin at the age of 2? No? Mine does***. I guess I really can’t say anything.

    *** really, no sh!t, no sh!nola. My dog almost got shot by the cop when he came to “serve” me too. My old man almost got shot by mother when he finally got home from playing golf.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  9. alanstorm says:

    @anjin-san:

    Well, when he brother Obama was first running for President, there were indicators that he was a dullard and a jerk. After he was elected, we found out it was true.

    FIFY.

    Obama has yet to demonstrate any brainpower greater than low average. And still you blame Bush for everything.

    Sorry you’re so slow. What do you plan to do when if you grow up?

    Poorly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 54

  10. humanoid.panda says:

    @alanstorm: LOL.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 19 Thumb down 0

  11. george says:

    @Mu:

    You could shorten that to “kids can be jerks”. There are a lot of reasons I wouldn’t want Jeb Bush as President, but what he did in school and college isn’t on the list. Seriously, it was forty years ago.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  12. anjin-san says:

    @alanstorm:

    Still searching for that elusive original thought? Bon chance…

    Hot debate. What do you think? Thumb up 17 Thumb down 6

  13. RGardner says:

    I used to live near the other brother (youngest) that you don’t hear about, Marvin Bush, in Alexandria Va (Fairfax), and knew when his brother the President was visiting due to the helicopters (which I called in as suspicious, as their tail numbers resolved to bush planes in Alaska, seriously, fake tail numbers from the Secret Service?). I was there when the nanny was run over, weird story.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  14. Tony W says:

    I think the difference between Republicans acting like this vs. the Democrats, is that the R’s take such a self-righteous claim to the moral high ground. Nobody cares if they smoked dope, heck half the country forgives a dog strapped to the roof of the car – but very few appreciate a hypocrite.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  15. jukeboxgrad says:

    alanstorm:

    Obama has yet to demonstrate any brainpower greater than low average.

    Harvard Law School. Magna cum laude. Blind grading.

    Try to muster the minimal “brainpower” required to comprehend what those terms mean, separately and together. If you can’t manage on your own, a good place to get some help is here.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 1

  16. jukeboxgrad says:

    James:

    whatever he did or didn’t do as a young teenager

    I think what you did when you were a kid matters, because I think character is relatively permanent; most people don’t change deeply. However, nothing in that Globe article looks big to me. Nothing in the same ballpark as leading a group assaulting a gay kid with a weapon while he screams.

    John Lauber and Seamus are stories that resonate because they fit in with many other signs (“I’m not concerned about the very poor”) that Mitt has no heart.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  17. SC_Birdflyte says:

    The run-up to the 2016 Presidential race, with Jeb now the GOP front-runner and Hillary the most likely Dem brings to mind a political cartoon I saw in late ’67 or early ’68 (if memory serves). A man stands at the edge of a cliff, obviously ready to take the big leap. His wife tearfully implores him not to jump: “Don’t jump, darling! Maybe it won’t be a Johnson-Nixon race.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  18. ElizaJane says:

    Agree that prep school idiocy is irrelevant. Terri Schiavo, however, is totally relevant and actually pretty scarey. In its own small way, the story could be used to define executive overreach and much else, none of it good.
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/jeb-bush-terri-schiavo-114730.html#.VM0iQC5d-84

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 27 Thumb down 1

  19. Robin Cohen says:

    “A dullard and a jerk.” Typical Bush family member.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 3

  20. bandit says:

    @Robin Cohen: Look who’s talking

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

  21. Robin Cohen says:

    @bandit:

    When was the last time a Bush family member did something smart?
    Certainly not when the idiot George and his corrupt buddy Cheney invaded Iraq.
    If you think the Bush family is smart what does that make you?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  22. T says:

    @RGardner: That was over off Fort Hunt right? Across the street from the country club?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 0

  23. OzarkHillbilly says:

    @jukeboxgrad:

    I think what you did when you were a kid matters, because I think character is relatively permanent;

    Oh bull hockey. I have a very clear memory of when I and my buddies were 5 or 6 yrs old calling “Ni**er, ni**er…” to the trash men as they picked up the trash. Does that negate all the experiences and learning of the 50 years hence? Am I forever a racist? Even as I have “BlackLivesMatter” pasted on the back of my truck ever since Rosebud MO? And my wife half expects me to get shot over it?

    Maybe idiocy is permanent.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 1

  24. anjin-san says:

    @Robin Cohen:

    When a guy named Jeb is the smart one, you know you have a problem.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 1

  25. jukeboxgrad says:

    when I and my buddies were 5 or 6 yrs old calling “Ni**er, ni**er…”

    Maybe “kid” is the wrong word. Would you be making the same argument if you had been 16 instead of 6? You were too young to understand the meaning of what you did. That reasoning does not apply to the 18-year old Mitt who committed assault.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  26. grumpy realist says:

    I’m not so worried about what Jeb Bush did in high school as I am worried about what he did since then. The whole Terri Schiavo mess is enough to disqualify him, in my opinion–it’s just that all the other candidates on the Republican side are even worse.

    (This whole Clinton vs. Bush race we’re undoubtedly going to come down to makes my teeth ache. It’s like when I realized we were getting down to a Reagan vs. Carter race. Ugh.)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  27. michael reynolds says:

    I’m afraid it’s futile to pretend that the person you were at 17 is irrelevant to who you’ll be 40 years later. I think I’m a much-improved and certainly much mellowed version of myself at 17. But character tends not to change much, not really.

    One of my favorite pictures of myself is me in late teens, sitting with my folks in a posed picture where everyone but me is smiling. And I’ve got my hand between my knees to give the camera the finger. Flash forward 40 years and I’m twenty miles an hour over the speed limit, with an obnoxious fat cigar in my mouth and Rancid belting out, “F-ck You!”

    I look at my 17 year-old son now and I know he’ll mellow with time, but will he still be quick and witty and oppositional, unconventional and fundamentally kind? Yeah, I think so. He will not become cruel or intolerant, he just won’t, because that character arc is too extreme.

    But hopefully all of us learn over time to sand down the edges on our worst stuff and accentuate our better natures. And I’d be willing to believe that the entitled little sh-t in the story learned some things and mellowed and got control of those aspects of his personality. Until I remember Terri Schiavo. Because Jeb handled that not like a person who had learned some humility but like an arrogant, entitled little sh-t without an ounce of compassion. And his position on drug penalties is more of the same: It’s Okay If You’re Rich.

    He’s certainly smarter than his idiot brother, but as for his character, he’s got a lot left to show me.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 1

  28. jukeboxgrad says:

    his position on drug penalties

    Let’s play Guess Who Said It:

    I think in politics the biggest thing, the thing that voters from any part of the spectrum hate worse than anything is hypocrisy. And hypocrisy is, ‘Hey I did it and it’s okay for me because I was rich and at an elite school but if you’re poor and black or brown and live in a poor section of one of our big cities, we’re going to put you in jail and throw away the key.’

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  29. michael reynolds says:

    @jukeboxgrad:
    Every now and then he says something very sensible.If we could somehow subtract his loon of a father from the scene it might help me deal with the son.

    (See how I avoided spoilers there?)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  30. jukeboxgrad says:

    Every now and then he says something very sensible.

    Another quote:

    Our national security is not threatened by Iran having one nuclear weapon

    Also:

    … our foreign policy caused us some of what we got on 9/11 … there is blowback from our foreign policy

    At some point his opponents will dig these up (which has happened already, but not in a big way), and how he responds will be an interesting drama.

    See how I avoided spoilers

    I kind of figured you would.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  31. Robin Cohen says:

    @anjin-san: FYI, Jeb stands for John Ellis Bush. The nickname suits him better than his full name.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  32. RINO says:

    @alanstorm: Love him or Hate him, graduating from Harvard Law School certainly shows brainpower way above the average

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  33. jukeboxgrad says:

    graduating from Harvard Law School

    Not just graduating; graduating with high honors.

    The next thing they yell is always ‘BUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION’ so it’s important to point out that HLS uses blind grading. Obama has admitted that AA might have helped him get in, but it doesn’t explain why he got top grades.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 0

  34. MBunge says:

    1. Anyone who doubts the role of race in Obama criticism should think about how little time and energy Bill Clinton critics spent calling him stupid.

    2. What you do in the past usually matters less than how you understand and can deal with that behavior now. That’s why the drug issue should have legs.

    Mike

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  35. Facebones says:

    This matters in that he enjoyed a lot of marijuana back in his youth, but his family smoothed over any trouble that he might have gotten into over it.

    It matters that 40 years later, he opposed medical marijuana ballot initiatives and was happy to continue our futile War on Drugs.

    It matters because as a society we send a lot of kids to jail over pot arrests, arrests that never would have happened if those kids had the right daddy.

    I disagree with Rand Paul on a lot of things, but he’s absolutely right to call out Jeb on this.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  36. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Tony W: I think the difference between Republicans acting like this vs. the Democrats, is that the R’s take such a self-righteous claim to the moral high ground. Nobody cares if they smoked dope, heck half the country forgives a dog strapped to the roof of the car – but very few appreciate a hypocrite.

    Sounds like the argument I’ve often made — Democrats don’t pretend to not be scumbags, so when they are revealed as such, it shouldn’t be a surprise.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 12

  37. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    Remember, folks: what 18-year-old Jeb Bush did in 1971 is totally relevant, but what 18-year-old Barack Obama and his “choom gang” did in 1979 is off-topic. And it’s racist to note that he was President of the Harvard Law Review but never in his entire law school career wrote an article for it; that he spent years as a constitutional law professor without ever writing a single academic paper; his total literary output was two books about himself; and at no point between 1992 and 2008 did he demonstrate his incredible intellect and brainpower in any moreasurable or notable fashion.

    Oh, and his long friendships and partnerships with such disreputable characters as William Ayers and Jeremiah Wright and slumlord Valerie Jarriett are also irrelevant, and anyone who brings them up is just straight-up racist.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 12

  38. Liberal With Attitude says:

    @humanoid.panda:
    Exactly-
    What mistakes an individual did 40 odd years ago are probably irrelevant.
    But the story of Jeb’s world reveals the world of aristocratic privilege and depraved indifference of the ruling elite for the rest of America, a condition that has only gotten worse over the past 40 years, not better.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  39. jukeboxgrad says:

    Jenos:

    but what 18-year-old Barack Obama and his “choom gang” did in 1979 is off-topic

    It’s so “off-topic” it’s been mentioned by pretty much every major news outlet. Example.

    but never in his entire law school career wrote an article for it

    Yet another exceptionally popular right-wing lie. Link. And I’m pretty sure I have already told you so.

    without ever writing a single academic paper

    Tell me the number of ‘academic papers’ Cruz ever wrote on his own.

    his long friendships and partnerships with such disreputable characters

    Gordon “go for a head shot” Liddy is pals with McCain. So that means McCain is palling around with terrorists, right?

    and anyone who brings them up is just straight-up racist

    There must be some other reason why the McCain/Liddy bromance doesn’t matter to you.

    Jeremiah Wright

    A Marine who has probably taken more risks for this country than you have:

    While this young man was serving six years on active duty, Vice President Dick Cheney, who was born the same year as the Marine/sailor, received five deferments, four for being an undergraduate and graduate student and one for being a prospective father. Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, both five years younger than the African-American youth, used their student deferments to stay in college until 1968. Both then avoided going on active duty through family connections.

    Who is the real patriot? The young man who interrupted his studies to serve his country for six years or our three political leaders who beat the system?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 0

  40. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @jukeboxgrad: Whoops, my bad, he wrote one. That makes all the difference in the world. One article as a student, none as a professor. So much for “publish or perish.”

    Ayers is an unrepentant domestic terrorist who planned to blow up an enlisted men’s dance as a protest against the Viet Nam war, and was involved in several other bombings, who only walked because the prosecutors screwed up. He himself says he was “guilty as hell.”

    McCain? How’d he get into this thread?

    Wright had a fine military career. So did Timothy McVeigh.

    But nice to see you’re still running true to form. Focus on one trivial detail, distract from others, ignore the rest.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 11

  41. jukeboxgrad says:

    he wrote one

    Now tell me how many Cruz wrote when he was at HLS.

    So much for “publish or perish.”

    I realize you’re surprised to discover that not every cliché is true.

    McCain? How’d he get into this thread?

    I realize you think palling around “disreputable characters” is only a problem when the other side does it.

    Timothy McVeigh.

    McVeigh? How’d he get into this thread?

    Focus on one trivial detail

    You making a bunch of claims divorced from reality is not a “trivial detail.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  42. An Interested Party says:

    Sounds like the argument I’ve often made — Democrats don’t pretend to not be scumbags, so when they are revealed as such, it shouldn’t be a surprise.

    On my…who could of guessed that those who smoke pot and/or those who don’t trash those who smoke pot are “scumbags”…by the way, a real scumbag is someone who smoked pot in his youth and got out of any trouble through money and family connections while years later supporting the disastrous failed War on Drugs…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  43. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Wright had a fine military career. So did Timothy McVeigh.

    McVeigh was a mass murderer/terrorist. Wright is a guy who said some stuff you don’t like. Perhaps you could explain what one man has to do with the other.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  44. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @anjin-san: Fine, Liddy also had a distinguished military career. Also, Liddy was also a decorated FBI agent and a county prosecutor.

    And George W. Bush, widely derided as an idiot, holds an MBA from Harvard and racked up hundreds of hours in the single-seater F-102 Delta Dagger, a supersonic, single-seat interceptor. As BIll Whittle spells out, it is impossible to be an idiot and master that plane. Family connections and money and buddies will not save you from a widow-maker like that plane was.

    Oh, and here’s a quote from Liddy about that “shoot them in the head” statement:

    I was talking about a situation in which law enforcement agents come smashing into a house, don’t say who they are and their guns are out, they’re shooting and they’re in the wrong place. This has happened time and time again. The ATF has gone in and gotten the wrong person in the wrong place. The law is that if somebody is shooting at you, using deadly force, the mere fact that they are a law enforcement officer, if they are in the wrong, does not mean you are obliged to allow yourself to be killed so your kinfolk can have a wrongful death action. You are legally entitled to defend yourself and I was speaking of exactly those kind of situations. If you’re going to do that, you should know that they’re wearing body armor so you should use a head shot. Now all I’m doing is stating the law, but all the nuances in there got left out when the story got repeated.

    But Obama’s smart, because he’s got the right credentials. He checked off the right boxes. And what did he do with his stunning intellect? Got elected to the legislature where he voted “present” a lot, did some college teaching where he made sure his students learned the Alinsky methods of political activism, then ran for the US Senate, where he didn’t do anything exceptionally noteworthy.

    Oh, and he wrote two books — about himself. Well, you’re supposed to write what you know, after all…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 10

  45. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    I have not mentioned Liddy, Bush, Obama, or Alinsky on this thread, so I fear you have wasted a perfectly good rant. What on earth does Alinsky have to do with this thread? Please try to stay on topic.

    I am simply pointing out that you can’t use a piece of dung like McVeigh to smear Wright, simply because they both served in the military. If we accept your “logic” the military records of Omar Bradley and Audie Murphy can’t be used to show evidence of character, because, because… McVeigh. It’s a lame argument, and it’s disrespectful to everyone who ever served with distinction or simply carried out their duty without fail. It’s kinda sad that you would use the military at all in your eagerness to trash Wright.

    It’s also worth noting that its’ quite clear you do not give a rat’s ass about Wright, except that you think you can use him as a club to bash Obama with. The brighter kids on the right figured out that was a losing argument many years ago, yet you cling to it like a barnacle…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  46. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @anjin-san: I don’t have to trash Wright; he does that just fine on his own. But you cited his military career as some kind of verification of his character. If that’s the standard you chose to use, then why doesn’t it apply to John McCain, G. Gordon Liddy, Timothy McVeigh, Charlie Rangel, or any of a host of others I could cite who had honorable military careers?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 9

  47. jukeboxgrad says:

    Jenos:

    hundreds of hours in the single-seater F-102 Delta Dagger

    Protecting the skies of Texas from a Mexican invasion. That “single-seater” was a safer place than Vietnam.

    As BIll Whittle spells out

    Whittle is a transparent liar. He is taken seriously only by fools.

    I was talking about a situation in which law enforcement agents come smashing into a house

    Except that Liddy made these statements many times, and you cannot show that he “was talking about” what he later said he “was talking about.” Link, link.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  48. jukeboxgrad says:

    the Alinsky methods of political activism

    Another fan of Alinsky: William F Buckley. Link, link. Funny how your NR article forgot to mention that.

    why doesn’t it apply to John McCain

    Conservatives don’t claim that McCain’s “military career [is] some kind of verification of his character?”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  49. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    I don’t have to trash Wright; he does that just fine on his own.

    How does he do that? Please be specific.

    But you cited his military career as some kind of verification of his character.

    Umm. Nope. You sound very confused.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  50. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @anjin-san: Why do I keep making the same mistake, thinking that you actually say things worth responding to? I should put a Post-It on my monitor to remind me of that…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 9

  51. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Trying to find a face-saving way to bail at this point is probably not a bad move on your part.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  52. george says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    You know, I can’t help but note that the only people who ever talk about Alinsky are conservatives; seriously take a look at the threads over the years and see who brings him up – its not even close to even. Now I’m an engineer and never took a poli-sci class, so I’ve no idea who this Alinsky is, but I’m convinced he’s ultimately a conservative, since it seems 90% of his fans are conservatives.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  53. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @anjin-san: Tell you what: why don’t you elaborate on how Officer Wilson was “unmarked” after his encounter with Brown, and I’ll pretend that you’re actually making sense. Sound fair?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 6

  54. stonetools says:

    The Alinsky thing is strange. I’ve read a lot of left wing literature over the years, and I never even heard of Alinsky until the 2008 presidential campaign. Now so far as I can tell, Saul Alinsky is number one in the conservative pantheon of iconic left wing villians, worse then Stalin, Mao or even Uncle Karl himself. How did that happen?
    You know conservatives are running out of things to attack Obama for if they are redoing the near misses of 2008.
    Wright, Ayers and now Alinsky. Hey Jenos, nobody gave a d@mn about those guys the first time around. They still don’t.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  55. An Interested Party says:

    Family connections and money and buddies will not save you from a widow-maker like that plane was.

    Maybe not but those things certainly saved him from having to go to Vietnam…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  56. jukeboxgrad says:

    Jenos now:

    Officer Wilson

    Jenos before:

    McCain? How’d he get into this thread?

    Next up, the Jenos who is very sensitive about people allegedly changing the subject will have a conversation with the Jenos who is changing the subject.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  57. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @george: Think of it as a parallel to “southern strategy” and “racism” and “dog-whistles.”

    I urge you to read Alinsky’s Rules. They aren’t necessarily for the Left; they work well for any out-of-power faction looking to bring down the status quo — as long as you’re not too worried about collateral damage.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 8

  58. jukeboxgrad says:

    They aren’t necessarily for the Left; they work well for any out-of-power faction looking to bring down the status quo — as long as you’re not too worried about collateral damage.

    I guess that explains why William F Buckley was a fan. Link, link.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  59. gVOR08 says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    I should put a Post-It on my monitor to remind me (not to respond to anjin-san).

    You should. In fact, no one here at OTB is worthy to appreciate the profundity of your thought and your rapier wit. You demean yourself by commenting here.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  60. anjin-san says:

    You demean yourself by commenting here.

    Could not agree more. Jenos, you are pretty much a combination of Muhammad Ali, Joe Montana, Russell Kirk, and Batman. Don’t waste even another minute of your time here – the world needs you!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  61. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @jukeboxgrad: Wow, juke links to… his own comments elsewhere. Color me gobsmacked.

    And in this context, it seems that I agree with Buckley that Alinsky was, in his way, brilliant. As I said, his tactics are intended for the underdog, and I find myself using them here on occasion. On the last Ferguson thread, I hung anjin on Rule 4. Rule 5 is fun for Cliffy, wr, and annie.

    On the other hand, I find Rule 12 contemptible, and won’t use it. But it’s a go-to tactic for several here. annie lives by it.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7

  62. jukeboxgrad says:

    Wow, juke links to… his own comments

    I link to my own comments when they contain links to evidence. I realize you don’t understand the meaning of that word. I also realize you don’t understand how the internet works.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  63. jukeboxgrad says:

    Jenos earlier:

    [Obama] did some college teaching where he made sure his students learned the Alinsky methods of political activism

    Jenos later:

    I find myself using them [Alinsky tactics] here on occasion

    If using “Alinsky tactics” is wrong, then why do you use them? And if using “Alinsky tactics” is not wrong, then why did you mention that Obama allegedly taught them?

    Conservatives never fail to impress with their deep self-awareness.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 0

  64. Rafer Janders says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    They aren’t necessarily for the Left; they work well for any out-of-power faction looking to bring down the status quo — as long as you’re not too worried about collateral damage.

    Off-topic, but what’s the GOP been up to lately?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  65. Ken says:

    I see several folks have mentioned terry Schiavo already, so I suppose I’m just joining the chorus. But I think Michael Schiavo’s description sums it up perfectly: “A vindictive, untrustworthy coward’ His behavior during and after that fiasco should have gotten him impeached.

    We really don’t need another stubborn, ideologically entrenched dullard from the Bush family throwing our country back in the ditch we’ve only just climbed out of

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 6 Thumb down 0

  66. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @jukeboxgrad: For someone who puts on such intellectual pretensions, you don’t do nuance very well, do you? Do you really see things in black and white, or do you simply project that on others so you can convince yourself of your superiority?

    There is no contradiction between these two statements.

    1) Alinsky’s tactics can be remarkably effective at achieving one’s goals.

    2) Some of Alinsky’s tactics are reprehensible.

    Further, Obama was teaching Alinsky’s Rules in the context of explaining how to influence Chicago’s city government. And here’s Alinsky describing the role of a “community organizer” like Obama was:

    [You must help] the people in the community…feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and chance the future. [An] organizer must shake up the prevailing patterns of their lives–agitate, create disenchantment and discontent with the current values, to produce, if not a passion for change, at least a passive, affirmative, non-challenging climate. [You must] fan the embers of hopelessness into a flame of fight.

    That’s from the prologue.

    But back to the topic at hand. I’m still curious why it’s not only fair, but necessary and good to subject Republicans to this level of scrutiny, of delving into their childhood (we’re talking about Jeb Bush being younger than Michael Brown was), but it’s bad/wrong/not acceptable to subject Democrats to the same level of scrutiny.

    Barack Obama’s parents’ wedding was enabled by the march in Birmingham?

    Hillary Clinton was named after Sir Edmund Hilary?

    Myths passed off as fact. And when exposed as lies (impossibilities), “no big deal.”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 7

  67. Ken says:

    It’s remarkable how successfully Jenos has completely derailed this thread into a rehash of “Obama loves Wright, Alinsky and Ayers” from his very first comments

    It’s sad how many otherwise smart commenters seem to have merrily gone along with this

    So, Jenos, do you have anything to say about the actual topic at hand? Because so far all you’ve given us is your version of Phil Hartman’s SNL Frankenstein character:
    “OBAMA BAD”

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  68. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    @Ken: You mean, like that last comment of mine, where I beat you going back on topic by almost half an hour?

    Here, in case you missed it:

    But back to the topic at hand. I’m still curious why it’s not only fair, but necessary and good to subject Republicans to this level of scrutiny, of delving into their childhood (we’re talking about Jeb Bush being younger than Michael Brown was), but it’s bad/wrong/not acceptable to subject Democrats to the same level of scrutiny.

    Back to you, Ken…

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  69. anjin-san says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    Yes Ken, how could you have missed it when Jenos finally went on topic? After all, Michael Brown is totally relevant to this thread. Try and keep up :)

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 0

  70. jukeboxgrad says:

    Jenos:

    Some of Alinsky’s tactics are reprehensible.

    Just “some?” Really? Now you tell us. Before you said this:

    [Obama] did some college teaching where he made sure his students learned the Alinsky methods of political activism

    That statement, like most statements by conservatives mentioning the word “Alinsky,” implies that all of “Alinsky’s tactics are reprehensible.” Not just “some.” But now that you’ve backpedaled to this new position, show your evidence that “Alinsky’s tactics” supposedly taught by Obama were those in the category of supposedly “reprehensible.” Of course you have no such evidence. You can’t even prove your original claim about “college teaching” of “Alinsky methods.”

    Why do you make accusations you can’t support with evidence?

    but it’s bad/wrong/not acceptable to subject Democrats to the same level of scrutiny

    Says who? Another accusation you will never support with evidence. Conservatives are such whiny victims.

    “no big deal”

    Who said that? Conservatives love phony quotes.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  71. michael reynolds says:

    Jenos follows the old aphorism, “If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table.”

    He pounds the table. Never have so many empty words been produced from such an empty head. It’s kind of like the miracle of the loaves and fishes. Or to get Shakespearian, His is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing.

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