Friday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Friday, January 8, 2021
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165 comments
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor of Political Science and a College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
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Domestic terrorism not just in DC.
Raffensperger escorted out of Ga. Capitol after it was surrounded by pro-Trump mob
Arizona becomes Covid hotspot of the world as governor resists restrictions
Embrace the suck.
@Scott:
They had similar scenes in California, Oregon, Washington state, Michigan, Minnesota, and a few other states.
Insurrectionists’ social media presence gives feds an easy way to ID them
The dimwit on the right in the photo is wearing his company’s id badge. His ex-company’s id badge, I should say.
Can’t insert too many links, but – based on what we know – there is a possibility that Wednesday’s events were rather more than a riot.
On Twitter, there is video of Capitol Police waving rioters through.
“Capitol Police rejected offers of federal help to quell mob,” AP reports.
“Maryland governor tried to deploy National Guard in DC only for his calls to be ignored,” says Business Insider.
Apart from the selfie crowd, there were rioters carrying firearms, vests, and tie wraps. Again, photo evidence is all over Twitter.
CNN showed footage of the Trump family literally dancing when they got the new that the crowd was storming the capitol.
A flurry of resignations: Capitol Police Chief, House of Representatives Sergeant at Arms, Senate Sergeant-at-Arms.
“Suddenly the squirrel ran up my leg and I thought ‘it’s a small rodent, how bad could this be’, so I stood completely still and they next thing I knew the blood started to fly. It was a wrestling match that got very bloody very quickly,” Frederick said.
I caught a chipmunk in our house recently. I tried to get Miss Kitty the Unburnt, Queen of the Hollers, Breaker of Tethers, Killer of Copperheads to take care of it for us but she just wasn’t interested (the lazy bitch) so I snatched the life support system for a pair of eyeballs off the bookshelf myself and of course s/he tried to bite me (actually did but the way I grabbed it s/he was unable to draw blood) and threw it out the door.
It is probably regaling the little ones right now with the story of how s/he fought off el Ogro de la Cuenca del Oso.
Repost from yesterday’s thread:
Not sure what confidence level to put on this. but have seen a few reports around that at least some in the Senate chamber breach were a particular group, moving together.
John Scott-Railton@jsrailton
https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1347289098697003008
Also at Bellingcat.
Several now ID’d as ex military.
Carrying ziplok cuffs.
Some commenters on these threads speculating possible ID’s re. “associates” of Flynn, also known groups of “contractors”. No confirmation of this.
Another Business Insider story quoting an unnamed “NATO source:”
Obviously, we don’t know if this assessment is correct, but it does appear to be a real possibility.
I’ve seen a number of people bemoan the fact that two thirds of House Republicans essentially voted in support of insurrection and lies. While true, this way of presenting it masks the real problem, one that has existed for two centuries. That two thirds is overwhelmingly made up of the white Representatives from the former Confederate states*. As a nation, in 1877 we turned our back on our minority sisters and brothers (Black, Jewish, Catholic, Asian) and left them to the depredations of the morally diseased white power structure that instigated the Civil War. A direct line can be drawn from those in power then to the Klan governance, the murderers, the lynchers, to those who set the dogs on peaceful protesters and opened the gates of the jails in the night to let savages murder innocent people. This line continues to the scum like Cruz and Gaetz and the Hawleys. To our disgrace as a nation, we have looked the other way all too often, mewling that we must work with these traitors or risk division. What that has really meant is that we abandon the decent and innocent people to their depredations.
No more. We have to stop appeasing these people. In most cases they do not represent the majority of their states and even in the sad and disturbing few instances where this reign of misery and injustice is welcomed by a majority, we have to remember that American values mean we must stand with the unjustly oppressed minority, not look the other way while the powerful have their way with them.
*There are also a number of states who entered the Union post Civil War but have shown historically their leadership would have been on the side of the slavers. Their white Republican Reps also overwhelming voted in support of the traitors and liars.
@drj:
Looks like someone is having similar thoughts to me: the way that crowd control was handled outside the Capitol is just way off usual procedures for any reasonable threat assessment/contingency planning.
Something whiffs; perhaps just a muck-up due to federal agencies being pulled out the loop leaving DC Police and Capitol Police blindsided? But it might be worse than that.
“The fascist Antifa crowd” actual phrase heard on FoxNews to explain the rioters.
@JohnSF:
Trump wanted a successful riot and got one.
Quite a deliberate one, I’m sure.
I think the real question now is whether it went further than that.
Busisness Insider is a fairly reputable source. According to them, at least one NATO member government was briefed “with a reasonable level of certainty” that the riots were part of an actual coup attempt by the sitting POTUS.
ETA: Of course, there was also that letter earlier this week from all living former Defense secretaries. I don’t think they wrote that letter on a whim. There must have been some chatter going on indicating that something was possibly about to be going down. Who knows, it may have been this.
@Teve: They really are the dumbest of the dumb. Was it Kilmeade?
@drj:
Former administration Russia analyst and impeachment witness Fiona Hill is quoted in the Daily Beast today:
This time, the institutions held. But these people are not going away. At some point we will see a person with Trump’s appeal to the worst of America, but who isn’t also an incompetent blowhard. That will be the real test.
@Teve: A little confused maybe?
@Mikey: Forgot to link the Daily Beast piece.
Trump Officials Rush to Keep Him From Sparking Another Conflict—at Home or Abroad
@Scott: On the other hand, while there were 0 arrests at the Georgia capital:
Police: 23 arrested at Atlanta protest over Jacob Blake decision
@Mikey:
The Daily Beast has a number of good pieces today.
As drj referred above: Capitol Police rejected offers of federal help to quell mob
So yes, a whiff, but probably not nefarious.
An unnamed source close to Orange turdface confirmed my assessment in a story I read yesterday–that Trump believes no one would dare mess with him after he showed what he’s capable of unleashing. I believe this was really the entire point.
I was known as a pretty mild-mannered teen growing up. One day an acquaintance’s girlfriend invited me and a couple of friends over to her house while her mom was at work. I assumed the acquaintance would be there when we got there…but he wasn’t. Anyways, after the fridge was raided and a movie watched. I found myself alone in a room with the young lady. Fooling around occured.
Fast forward later that evening at home when my mom answered the door and there were three guys at our door…one of whom was the guy whose girlfriend tried to make me her sidepiece. I guess this guy really thought he could just waltz up to my house with 2 friends and jump me in front of my family. I remember the intense rush of rage I felt that this guy really played me for someone he could just shit on. He didn’t even have the caution to try to ambush me.
You couldn’t see the garage entrance from the front door at that house. So I went to the garage and got my dads softball bat and went out the garage and around to the front door (but behind) where the boys were standing. I had the bat resting on my shoulder and when they saw me…it was the first time I saw human eyes grow to the size of saucers. I wasn’t expecting them to run…but they did. They all did.
Over the next few days I learned that my legend had been born. Young JB32 was cool…mostly…but if you cornered him the guy would go psycho. Needless to say, no one talked about fighting or jumping me again for the rest of high school.
Trump will come to your house and piss in your face if he believes you are too weak to respond. He doesn’t think like a politician and frankly doesn’t care about political status symbols like legacy, honor, etc. He only cares about doing what HE wants to do and evaluates threats based on likelihood of response and severity. When I surprised those dumb kids with a bat, I show that I was at about 9/10 for likelihood and severity.
If Republicans cower away from this guy, hes going to continue to terrorize them. Unfortunately there are alot of Trumpers that learned special skills in the War on Terror that can be used here at home on Trumps political enemies. These people left the Capitol saying ‘this isnt over…’ Believe them
@Mikey: my money is on dan crenshaw for that role.
@drj:
I took the link and read the story. I look forward to a comprehensive investigation.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Maybe just good old Grade A stupidity then.
That might fit with resignations of Capitol Police Chief, Congressional Sergeants at Arms, if they had all said only peaceful demo contingencies required.
As far as a possible attempted coup, I ain’t buying it. What’s the old joke? “What if you held a coup and nobody showed up?” I would modify it to, “What if you held a coup and only these guys showed up?”
C’mon.
I can see the possibility of there being truly bad actors in attendance intent on committing serious criminal offenses (such as hostage taking for whatever deluded reason) under cover of all the numbnuts storming he capital. But beyond that… No.
Ironically, many of those, shall we say, deplorables, that you rightfully rail against see themselves as the unjustly oppressed minority…
That was strange…
@JohnSF: Hillbilly’s Razor: Never ascribe to evil genius that which can be explained by rank stupidity.
@Jim Brown 32:
I believe them. They’re already making plans to disrupt the Biden inauguration.
@An Interested Party: Well, they are oppressed. Who are we to say then should not rule?
@JohnSF:
Whoever they were, they were moving with a clear purpose other rioters weren’t. I commented at the time about how many were just wandering around on the live streams and seemed more interested in insurrection tourism (selfies and theft) than hunting people down. A lot of purposeless rage, directed into “taking” the Capitol and damaging things but once they were in…. they just rifle through papers and brag about the crimes they just committed.
Then there’s these asses. They’re clearly kitted out to *do* something to innocent people in a way the typical rioter wasn’t. Perhaps sent to get revenge from a wannabe mob boss? It’s possible this is why there were briefings on a possible coup and why the Trumps seems so damned pleased a building only a few blocks away was under siege from a crazed mob. It might also explain why Trump was so reluctant to do anything to stop this for so long; he might have been hoping to buy time for whatever objective these folks had. Once it became clear it wasn’t gonna happen, he made his little video so he could be seen doing something.
I wouldn’t put it past someone in Trump’s circle (if not the man himself) to send thugs to get Congress folks they wanted taken care of. Now, the real question would be who exactly they were looking for?
@An Interested Party: My kingdom for an edit function: Who are we to say they should not rule?
@Jim Brown 32:
Could play into what I think Trump is thinking a lot of the time: how to coerce national level pols into somehow giving him cover against both federal and state legal jeopardy.
And as Trump seems to operate like a Mob Boss wannabe a lot of the time, and had a lot of exposure to that sort of thing way back in New York, New Jersey etc, plus no grasp of the legal/political realities.
I think he believes if has a media platform, and a enraged crowd he can summon up at will, then some kind of “cross party” elite can be scared into giving him protection.
The whole idea is stupid. But, the Trump Razor…“Ascertain the stupidest possible scenario that can be reconciled with the available facts.”
@OzarkHillbilly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor
@OzarkHillbilly: I was referring to the folks like white evangelicals and other conservative types represented by scum like Cruz and Hawley who see themselves as the oppressed minority…such people shouldn’t be ruling anything…
@KM: the selfies that were posted on social media confirm my opinion of Trump voters.
@KM:
There’s speculation that a coalition of seniors (Pence, McConnell etc) is constraining Trump.
I hope someone has thought to get eyes on Flynn.
FBI Washington Field Office has some tweets up with clear images of some of the mob.
https://twitter.com/FBIWFO/status/1347407275300954112
@pwnallthethings
If nationally we conclude the head of the executive branch inciting a violent attack on the legislative branch to overturn an election isn’t the right time for impeachment, then honestly, impeachment is entirely dead as a concept.
@Jim Brown 32:
Yep, the point was to send a message: I know where you live and you’re not safe.
In two weeks, this man will be a nobody again. He’s vulnerable and has no inherent power. He needs to strike fear into the hearts of the GOP *NOW* so they don’t leave him to the law. Moreover, his brand relies on the appearance of Alpha Maleness; what’s more “in charge” than being capable of sending a mob of loyalists to wreck your stuff and drag you out into the street? Who takes the old mob boss seriously as a threat unless they are concerned something might happen? He had to strike now, even if it was only taking advantage of a situation that others might have set up.
Trump left a horse head in conservatives’ bed. Now we get to see if the GOP flinches and gives in.
When I was in my late twenties living in Chapel Hill I got the idea to get back in shape. So I put an ad in the relevant Craigslist section for somebody to play tennis with, because it’s a lot easier to get in shape if you have a sport you’re doing, you don’t notice you’re working out. Within a few days a middle-aged Asian woman contacted me and we met a few dozen times to play tennis at a nearby court. I told her that I was trying to get back in shape, and she looked at me and said “you should work out a lot and get body like 300”. I said, is that kind of the best body, the actors who were in 300? She pantomimed waving her face and said yes “you should work out like guy in 300”.
I love that memory.
@OzarkHillbilly:
I do buy it.
When Communist party officials staged a coup to sack Gorbachev in the early 90s, their actions were described as the most inept attempted coup the stupidest bunch of idiots ever staged. When Caesar was assassinated, the conspirators didn’t even bother to go after his power base or his lieutenants, who then took over with little trouble.
So, Trump just outdid them all in ineptness, incompetence, and stupidity.
Impeachment or not, there’s no excuse now not to prosecute him and make him pay dearly.
There are numerous stories that seem to contend that VP Pence authorized the Nat’l Guard deployment but that Pres Trump would not. It seems like this would be a great place to hear some explication of that. Waiting patiently.
@JohnSF:
At the risk of repeating myself, I truly do think that Pence has been Acting President since late Wednesday. This won’t be made public for fear of extreme retaliation by the Trump mob.
Pence et al probably went to Trump and delivered an ultimatum: As of now, you are no longer president. We’ll let you pretend you are, for the sake of appearances and your ego, but you have no power. Pence is in charge. If you say or do anything to contradict us, we will invoke the 25th Amendment and you will be removed from these premises and permanently humiliated.
@Teve: Indeed…at least the minority of people who looted over last summer had the good sense to cover their faces with masks…but I’ll bet the yokels who broke into the Capitol didn’t think they did anything wrong…
@KM: Well, at least one laptop with potentially sensitive information on it has gone missing.
My guess is that these guys might have been after things, and not people. We might never really know what was stolen out of offices, if it’s really sensitive.
That leads me to something I’ve been rather aghast about–how was there no shutdown protocol in place for computers? Heck, the PR firm I worked at decades ago had a policy that you were required to put your computer in sleep mode EVERY TIME you stepped away from your desk. You never, ever left your computer awake and unattended. The pictures of some of these clowns in front of active screens is astonishing.
I know that wouldn’t impact a laptop that was physically removed, but there had damn well better be hearings/investigations into the many, many security loopholes that have been exposed by this revolution cosplay.
@CSK:
100% agree. This has to be what is going on. Trump’s not in charge any more.
@Teve: “Good artists borrow. Great artists steal.” -Pablo Picasso
@An Interested Party: Shhhhhh…. they might hear you.
@Jen:
I’m equally sure they also forced him to make that video condemning the invasion of the Capitol Building.
But they should take his phone away from him. Here’s what he tweeted 37 minutes ago:
“The 75 million Great Americans who voted for me, AMERICA FIRST and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN, will have a GIANT VOICE into the future. They will not be disrespected in any way, shape or form.”
@Jen:
@CSK:
It looks like Pence has reason for anger: his wife and daughter were in the Capitol Building when it was stormed.
@CSK:
Actually, that wording struck me.
A giant voice = Trump Media ?
75 million = less than 81 ?
Is he trying to sidle up to a typically weaselly non-concession concession?
It’s not quite the all-out raving Trump of late.
No “I won!”
No “fraud!”
I wonder.
The Hoarse Whisperer
@TheRealHoarse
(Warning: do not read while drinking anything)
According to reports, a rioter who died in Wednesday’s storming of the Capitol suffered a heart attack induced by…
…wait for it…
accidentally tasering his own balls.
According to the same reports, the man lit up his own prunes like Ben Franklin flying a kite while trying to steal a painting…
of Tip O’Neill.
Moving away from this week’s mayhem and trumposity, on deck for this week is some sort of turkey* with sauteed mushrooms and potato sauce served over noodles. I’ve also a vague notion of my cottage cheesecake topped with a creamy jello; this may have to wait a bit.
*Depends on what kid of turkey I can get at the supermarket, and I may have to settle for chicken.
@JohnSF:
Off the top of my head, I’d say that Trump is conceding that Biden got more votes than he did, but without directly saying so.
Pence and Co. should take his damn phone away from him.
@CSK:
Unless there’s some sort of agreement to let them down gently:“OK, you don’t have to say you lost, so long as you stop claiming you won”?
@CSK: In analyzing his recent “concession,” you need to contextualize it in terms of which Trump said it. Throughout his presidency (and before, when he was just a candidate), there have essentially been two Trumps presented the public. There’s the unleashed Trump we see at the rallies. Then there’s the Trump reading monotonously (and often incorrectly) off a teleprompter or note cards. It’s the latter version of Trump that’s always brought out as damage control. It’s the one we saw in 2017 during the Charlottesville fiasco: first he makes a public statement refusing to condemn the white supremacists–that’s the unleashed Trump–then he makes an appearance in which he reads off a script unequivocally condemning the neo-Nazis. A day later he’s back to his old self, talking about the “very fine people on both sides.”
The monotonous, teleprompter version of Trump is a big part of how he keeps his more unhinged supporters on board: none of them believe for a second he’s being sincere during these moments. And they’re absolutely right about that, of course. They see it correctly as damage control by the Deep State handlers around him. And they still somehow come out of it thinking of him as the alpha in the situation.
@Kylopod:
Oh, of course that’s the case.
I also recall his “apology” for the pussy tape–which was then followed up by his speculation that it wasn’t really his voice on the tape.
It was clear, though, that his admirers then simply admired him more for boasting about grabbing pussy. After all, it’s what a real man does. Right?
@CSK: The pussygate apology was actually kind of interesting. It was itself a pretty standard nonapology apology we often see from public figures, where he used the words “I apologize” but padded it with so many excuses that it was clear he wasn’t actually expressing any remorse. (The SNL version had Trump saying he “apple-jizes.”) Coming from Trump, though, even this was massively out of character. He normally doesn’t do even fake apologies. Trump’s pathology is such that he seems almost physically incapable of ever admitting he has any flaws whatsoever, or that he has ever made a mistake. (The closest he gets is when he depicts himself as victim, like his recent “What a schmuck I was” in his call to the George SoS. I’ve heard several people snarkily remark that that’s one of the most honest things Trump has ever said, but in the context of the conversation he was claiming to have been bamboozled by the people out to get him. That’s about as far as he will ever go in admitting to human weakness.) His handlers convincing him just to utter the words “I apologize” in public (or anywhere, really) was itself kind of remarkable.
I read about some of the mob who have been identified on social media and fired from their jobs. None of them are working class. They are realtors, professors, people in marketing and so on. Stupid me, of course they are. If you work for a living, you don’t have the money or the time to go to Washington to do something like this.
And while many of them seem to be cosplaying, I would not assume that all of them were. If there had been plans for this on social media for a few weeks, who’s to say someone a bit more competent didn’t show up to nudge things along, and gain some benefit for themselves?
A couple of minor thoughts for the day:
Where’s Jared? He really does disappear when the going gets tough.
Hawley is beginning to feel the heat at home.
Hoo boy.
While I’m far from convinced he actually wrote this tweet, it should be pointed out for the record that this is in fact his most explicit acknowledgment yet, more than even the video from the other day, that Biden will be president on Jan. 20.
The collapse of security at the Capitol Building seems similar to other times organizations have been caught flat-footed (9/11, Yom Kippur War, Pearl Harbor). If that’s true, we’ll follow the same discovery process:
1. People immediately look for a single point of failure. That could be an incompetent or traitorous person. Understandably, people want accountability as soon as possible.
2. People leap from a simplistic explanation to a ham-handed solution.
3. Later, with the benefit of better information and more time, interested parties discover the problems were more systemic, not strictly personal. Certainly, someone might have misread the situation or behaved poorly, but the failure depended on more than just that one person’s errors.
If memory serves (it has been a long time since I read it), Eliot Cohen’s Military Misfortunes is a good read on this subject. The bottom line: Don’t jump to conclusions. Someone might have royally screwed up, but resist the temptation, without more information, that conspiracies are the inevitable explanation.
@Kylopod:
As I said on the other thread, maybe he want to be out of town before the mayhem starts. Or maybe he’s signaling the mob that it’s okay to descend on D.C.
@OzarkHillbilly:
In my previous house I went to bathroom one morning intending to pee and there was a chipmunk in my toilet.
Just sitting there salty as fuck. Come at me, bro.
Whoah! How did that happen?
I used a broomstick to squash lil dude against the side until he died. I squished his brains out quite frankly.
It was a dry spell, sure, but there was a river 200 yards away. Go drink there.
It was shocking. I initially put the lid down and piled dirty laundry on it. Later my personal safebox cuz it was heavy.
I peed in the sink and just ran the water a bit. Make-do urinal.
I know critters can breach our homes sometimes for shelter, but sitting in my toilet is a step beyond. That was bonkers.
@OzarkHillbilly:
Nah…it was an insurrection/coup incited by Trump. Ex Republican(!) Presidents did not use the word insurrection without understanding what they were saying, unlike Trump they understand that words carry with them great weight. Also, I had been curious why the military made an extremely unusual public statement that they would not get involved in an attempt to overthrow the election but there you go. January 06, 2021 is why they went public.
As an English major I should know what a non-sequitur is because I think I am about to drop one in my comments as I could not help but think about the end of The Howling (which I literally just watched again on youtube) where after Dee Wallace turns into a werewolf and of course you get the reaction of folks watching tv where most dismiss it as a cool special effect, but then you have the guy in the bar casually state, yup…she turned into a werewolf, while everyone just continue to go on with their business.
Trump attempted a coup. Also, I will not speak for James, but I wonder if one of the reasons why James wishes there was enough time to invoke the 25th is because he sees what some of use are at the moment ignoring. What if Biden/Kamala Harris/Pelosi (or whoever is the Democratic Senate leader 4 years from now) refuses to step down in 2024. And what if Biden is much less rude towards members of the military and gasp..some members of the military back his play as he refuses to relinquish power in 2024 (of course this assumes that Biden or Kamala Harris are not legitimately re-elected by U.S. voters)?
This could happen and Pence and others in Congress have to be aware of this fact, and this is why Pence needs to do the right thing for the country and join Pelosi’s caucus in impeaching and convicting Trump. Anyone who thinks that the Democratic party would never do what Trump just tried to pull off is not paying attention.
I turn 50 in Sep of this year and I never thought I would live through a coup attempt in my lifetime, much less the possibility of 2 coup attempts, back to back, with the very real possibility that the next attempt will be attempted by Democrats. If Pence wants to prevent this from happening again he knows what he needs to do.
Trump needs to be convicted so folks with a D in front of their names do not try to follow in Trump’s footsteps, anyone who is even remotely thinking of trying to pull of a coup in 2022/2024 needs to see that there will be consequences for their actions.
@Mikey:
I hate The Daily Beast. It takes forever to load in properly and when it does it is mostly rehashed proper reporting slanted to make you angry.
Unlike many sites they do do some actual reporting, but 95% is just trash polemics.
The Cheat Sheet can kiss my butt.
@CSK:
Pehapd; but also fits with my “non-concession concession” theory, and that his tweets are being overseen.
No “I won!”; no “FRAUD!”
Also, I’ll bet that he tries to totally reverse this the moment he’s free to do so.
Twitter needs to assign someone watch his account real time (buffer it?) with a finger on the delete button.
And lock it the split second he stops being President*.
@MarkedMan:
The failure of, the abandonment of The Reconstruction haunts us til this day.
@drj:
On Wednesday, January 6, 2021, the leader of one branch of our government called up his brown shirts, his paramilitary goons and ordered them to attack another branch of our government as they were in the process of ratifying his replacement.
The hot Civil War has begun.
“Pehapd”
Pehapd?
My kingdom for an edit button that is not a fickle little tease!
@inhumans99: I think it’s quite a stretch to imagine Biden trying something like this. But I will admit I cannot make a blanket statement about any and all Democratic president. Yes, a line needs to be drawn.
Right now the Republican Party is split down the middle. They have stopped trying to paper it over, too. They have lost the House, the Presidency, and the Senate, and they have nothing left to lose at the national level. So I think they will speak up.
@Kylopod:
Trump is a perfect illustration of Tennyson’s dictum that “He is all fault who has no fault at all.”
@JohnSF:
I was irritated by my inability to edit “George SoS” in my comment earlier.
@JohnSF:
Pehapd you should pay more attention to red underlined words before hitting “Post Comment”
😉
@JohnSF:
Indeed. It’s possible that Pence and Co. let him cling to his phone as part of the deal that they made with him. And I would hope they have someone monitoring his feed. They can threaten to take it away from him if he’s a bad boy.
@Scott: I emailed NYT yesterday pointing out that those state capital incidents were in an AP story in my local semi-pro newspaper, but I couldn’t find them in NYT. I guess west of the Hudson is still the way New Yorker depicted it.
@de stijl:
Pehapd I should. 🙂
Boston Globe has run an article on John Kelly. Kelly states he would sign on for a 25th Amendment action if he was still in the cabinet, and stated “we” need to be more careful who we elect to office.
I would contend the military needs to do a better job of vetting GOs after seeing the likes of Kelly and Flynn make it to high rank with such obvious disdain for U.S. Constitution and their fellow citizens.
Jonathan Last’s column from yesterday, got me free associating and thinking about the R party as French Collaborators after WWII and the rush to distance themselves from Trump. Will we see Kayleigh McEnany, Hope Hicks and others sporting shaved heads?
@CSK:
I expect you’re right. But I also expect a multi-agency hammer is being prepared to come down on them. Better late than never.
Noonan at the WSJ threw down, hard.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/bring-the-insurrectionists-to-justice-11610065179
And it ain’t even behind a paywall…
More at the link.
Tommy Lasorda died at 93
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/01/08/sports/dodgers-legend-tommy-lasorda-dies-93/
Fitting that Trumps last full month saw Jobs DECLINE.
Only President in modern times who left office with fewer jobs than he started with.
GREATEST ECONOMY EVER!!!
Where is JKB???
@Sleeping Dog:
1981…fresh out of college…a wet-behind-the-ears kid who had just moved from VT…I had my first job as a TV News photographer in Ft. Pierce FL…the next town over from Vero Beach. I was making a ridiculously low salary. So we would go to Dodgertown every night we could and catch the game and eat the free hot dogs and drink the free beer in the Press Box.
We were around enough that Lasorda knew my name and always said hello. Always friendly, always funny, always charming.
RIP sir. Not hyperbole, at all, to call him one of the Greatest Of All Time.
Sidney Powell being sued by Dominion Voting Systems for $1.3 billion.
“But please, your honour, the Kraken made me do it…”
@Mikey: Ever see the Australian public service announcement video “Dumb Ways to Die”? We have a new winner…
@Liberal Capitalist:
Peggy Noonan can fuck off. Her “when I worked for Reagan” schtick is tired.
I can predict every column she writes.
@Kylopod:
Yes, I commented to my wife during the video of his “go home” remarks that I don’t need the sound on to tell whether Trump is speaking Trump words or words put in his mouth by adults. The body language gives it all away.
Impeachment articles could be introduced Monday, and a vote taken by Wednesday.
I believe the Senate has to hold a trial, and given the timing it must be before January 20th. But I don’t know when McConnell goes to being minority leader.
@JohnSF:
You would think that a lawyer would know that spurious accusations have consequences.
Trump hired on lick-spittles.
@Liberal Capitalist: I’m sure the paragraph detailing her introspection on the contribution she made to the development of this mindset just got cut for length.
Like a blind squirrel, she’s found a nut, good for her.
@gVOR08: I have a “A New Yorker’s Idea of the United States of America” that my mother gave me decades ago hanging in the bathroom. This was done in 1939. Same idea. Always amusing. Things don’t change.
If all Democratic Senators vote to convict on impeachment they need just 18 Republican votes to convict. Put to a vote I suspect they’ll fall short of that, but they’ll likely get half a dozen GOP votes which transforms the narrative and drives a wedge into the GOP.
We want this m’fers on the record before Trump tries one last, desperate ploy.
Even more useful though would be a sense of the Senate vote condemning any attempt by Trump to pardon his cronies or himself. Let’s get the GOPers on record for that.
@de stijl: Not this one. Noonan’s column is not her usual effort to view Republicanism through a Vaseline-smeared lens.
@Liberal Capitalist: @Kingdaddy:
This column may be the only one by Noonan I’ve ever been able to read all the way through.
@de stijl:
@Jen:
Well, it may not be your cup of tea.
But, she’s the sort of commentator that is likely to get through to the Republican side.
Those who were dismayed by Wednesday’s outrage, but are still tempted by those saying of “why can’t we just move on…”
Noonan saying “25th and impeach” will cut through on the right-of-centre.
@JohnSF: Oh, I agree. And, sure, I’m glad that she wrote it.
However, I further believe that if the GOP is to ever adopt changes that stick, they must understand the full picture of how they got to where they are right now. Peggy Noonan seems very much in the “Trump is an aberration” camp, rather than the “Trump is the inevitable conclusion of the course we’ve followed since the Southern Strategy” camp.
Only true, deep reflection is going to permit them to work through this in a way that doesn’t allow for it to happen again. I’m not convinced that Ms. Noonan gets that.
@JohnSF: @Jen:
If you have any illusions that Noonan’s column will cause the Trumpkins to have a great awakening, shed them forthwith. They’ve hated her guts for years now. FFS, they hate Ann Coulter.
@CSK: Nah, not the Trumpkins. But, the Republicans who have gritted their teeth and continued to vote for him, because nothing is worse than a Democrat–those folks are now on notice.
I know quite a few of these people. They aren’t full-on Trumpers, they are myopic and enableist Republicans. They don’t love Trump, but they can’t really see why the rest of us hate him so much, after all AOC is such a self-promoter and socialist, etc.
@Kingdaddy:
That’s not Vaseline, pretty sure it’s Vermouth. Well…partially anyway.
@Owen:
I would suggest that after the last several years the Harvard and Yale Law Schools also ought to do some introspection. Are they supposed to turn out sociopathic monsters, Hawley and Cruz being only the current examples.
@Liberal Capitalist: Did Peggy Noonan complain because it’s a coup attempt and an outrage against democracy, or only because it was declasse and failed? I won’t even ask if she recognized her own role in this.
@JohnSF:
“Pehapd”
Pehapd?
Leave it be. It’s downright Shakespearian.
@de stijl:
@Jen:
Not the hardcore MAGA-Trumkins, no.
But every one you can peel off is a gain.
And longer term, there’s the question of how the “right of centre” can best be demolished and reconstructed, whether on the basis of a purged GOP or a new party. Marginalizing the MAGA is going to be a devil of a job in either case.
Last comment was supposed to be a reply to
@CSK:
@Jen:
I certainly don’t disagree with Noonan’s thesis, and it’s good that she said what she said. But I think what happened Wednesday was more of a wake-up call than anything anyone could write. Millions of people saw and heard Trump explicitly tell people to march on the Capitol. Millions of people saw what happened after he did that.
@JohnSF:
I know. 😀
Rest in peace, Tommy Lasorda. And rest in peace, also, Mr Neil Sheehan. His book ‘A Bright and Shining Lie’ turned a book about Lt Col John Paul Vann into the definitive story of the hubris that led the US (and my skinny ass) into Viet Nam. One of the mileposts of my life was reading that book.
@gVOR08: Amen…I get sick of the military character bashing on here when our trade has demonstrated quite a bit of good faith in the American experiement…despite being a majority Republican constituency (I expect that to change however).
Meanwhile, unprincipled lawyers from elite institutions crime away politically and commercially…but very few people question the ethics of the institutions producing those citizens
@Jim Brown 32:
I think most trades and professions have their odd bad actors, in their own different ways.
Including actors LOL
(Apart from librarians: can’t say I’m aware of any evil librarians 🙂 )
@Jim Brown 32:
Well said.
Noonan’s piece is quite unequivocal and on-point. I have no reason to think she doesn’t believe it, and I just hope it will make a difference. I would expect the money people don’t like this.
Which makes me wonder how Charles Koch is responding. He supported certification of Biden Jan 5. Several of the people who voted against certification take his money. I wonder how he feels about that? I wonder what he’ll do about that?
I see him as the guy described upthread who sighs and goes along with Trump because “Democrats are worse”. Does he still think that today?
@Michael Reynolds:
Would R’s support impeachment? Yes it is questionable but not out of the question. Trump is an albatross for the party now, impeaching him is a way to remove whatever threat that he’ll run in 24 and allows the party to move on from him. He did bring votes to the party in 16 and 20 and other Rs benefited from that, but they didn’t show up in 18 nor in the GA runoff and there is no guarantee they’ll vote again w/o Trump on the ballot. So risking upsetting them may not be a big a risk as one might think.
@Sleeping Dog: CNBC White House Correspondent Eamon Javers:
@EamonJavers
A former Sr. Administration Official tells me sentiment is shifting in the GOP Senate:”In talking with Members of the House and Senate, I get the very real impression that impeachment would succeed right now. Everyone is just tired of Trump, and afraid of what he might do next.”
Completely tangential: When did we switch from saying “former” to saying “ex”?
When I was young it was always “former president Smith”, now it’s “ex-president Smith”.
Something is up in Tennessee
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/08/fbi-agents-search-offices-multiple-tennessee-republicans-capitol/6593526002/
Be prepared for special elections.
Apropos of nothing, I find conversations on the internet far more enjoyable now that I don’t feel the need to prevail in every argument, nor prove myself right in every particular.
@Mu Yixiao: I see it as the difference between remarriage after being widowed, vs after a bad divorce. In the first case, you’d refer to your former spouse; in the second, to your ex.
@Mu Yixiao:
I’m not going to ask how old you are, but it feels to me like we’ve been saying “ex-president” for like forever. For example, Carter has long been called the greatest ex-president (as opposed to the greatest former president). I’m not saying I’ve never heard the phrase “former president,” I just think “ex-president” is the more standard and common usage.
First:
Coup: a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government.
Insurrection: a violent uprising against an authority or government.
So, definitely not a coup. Insurrection? Technically it fits, and due to lack of better terms at the moment, even I have called them insurrectionists. In reality I think that gives them way too much credit. I mean, look at these guys. Are you quaking in your boots? Or rolling on the floor laughing your ass off?
So let’s review what I said:
OK, no need to belabor it. I also said,
“for whatever deluded reason”. These people were completely out of their gourds, thought they could do all this with impunity, I mean, they’re white, right? Were there some folks bent on serious criminal acts? Maybe. It certainly appears so, they were wearing masks when most of the horde was not, but to what end? Overthrow the govt? No. Become martyrs? If so they lost their nerve. Show us? Show us what?
That the revolution will not be televised? It will be on social media?
There’s no grand conspiracy here. trump incited a mob, aided and abetted by members of his party in Congress. And now they are all ducking and running for cover because they suddenly realized the jig is up. This is not to say this isn’t serious, it is. People died. Chances are real good that more will die. But the blood of the dead will be on the hands of trump and his enablers and it won’t wash off.
@Mu Yixiao: Laziness, IMHO.
Hmmmm, in the interests of being…. not a rude crude union carpenter, I will refrain from saying what I call my… my…. my…. You know who I mean.
@Kathy:
I think you’re wrong there. My argument will prevail. 🙂
@OzarkHillbilly:
Putsch is the correct technical term I think.
But looking at those guys a non-butch putsch.
A pitsch?
For the love of mike, even I could probably beat those guys.
And I can just hear my late father laughing his head off right now.
Or see mum, shaking her head and saying “Isn’t it about time they grew up?”
@OzarkHillbilly:
The term is “shivering”. And yes I am–it’s a damp 27 degrees outside with just enough wind to push it through your skin. I like my Wisconsin winters, but dammit… I want them to be sunny and 20, not this crap.
@Mikey: 😀 😛
@Mu Yixiao:
Was abour -2C maximum yesterday here, and misty all day; everthing covered in hoarfrost.
Would have been pretty if the sun had burnt through. Actually quite pretty even in mist.
Today, got up to about 2C and dull grey cloud, snow, sleet, drizzle, 99% humidity. Blech.
Great weather for being locked down.
@Mikey:
It is the essence of Conservatism to do the right thing only when it is too late to do any good.
He’s the same Trump now that he was when they refused to try his impeached ass. Most of them even know that.
@de stijl: @JohnSF: And I read 4 (!!!) posts before I realized that the first “r” in the word was missing too.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailv2&iss=sbi&form=SBIIDP&sbisrc=ImgDropper&q=imgurl:https%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Fdangerousintersection.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F04%2Fmisspelling.jpg&idpbck=1&selectedindex=0&id=https%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Fdangerousintersection.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F04%2Fmisspelling.jpg&ccid=vk8aKUCF&simid=608048918777954678&ck=5B94CF2C4D83AFA5AAAEB9D436807984&thid=OIP.vk8aKUCFJlCuaUWfIMuzwwHaHa&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi2.wp.com%2Fdangerousintersection.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F04%2Fmisspelling.jpg&exph=691&expw=691&vt=2&sim=11
(It really DOES work just like the joke says it does. 🙂 )
@Owen:
That suggestion may only work if the only voters are Kelly and the mouse in his pocket. (Old joke.)
UK Covid news: highest yet total deaths today: 1,325.
68,053 new cases.
And it’s going to get worse, even if the current lockdown halts the rise soon-ish (may not; it still not as tight as lockdown 1) the lag means hospitalisations and deaths will keep on rising on the lag.
And some regional hospital groups are getting very close to IC limits; then death rates step up care levels decline.
The price of Bloody Useless Johnson’s wishful thinking in the summer, delayed restrictions in autumn, and relaxation for Christmas.
@JohnSF: I’ll believe that when I see 17 or more “Right of Center” Republican Senators voting to convict.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
That is amazing, and funny. For me the first few words were a bit “huh?” but once you turn the mental key it’s quite easy.
Trick seems to be sort of “unfocusing” on the words, but combining the letter content and context.
Fascinating.
@Mu Yixiao:
Don’t move to New England, that’s a typical winter’s day. My wife is a Minnesotan, who often complains that she feels colder here at 30, than she did in Minnesota at 0
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Oh, they most likely won’t. If your measure is right of centre in the GOP, that is.
Though you might just get that many overall, if what I think is the current “deal” breaks down.
Deal being: Pence is effectively acting president, with the barrel of 25th pointing at Trump’s head, with non-impeach possibly the quid pro quo.
Trumps games endangered their own precious hides!
I was thinking of the ordinary, oftimes politically inattentive, voter, and “right-of-centre” being an arbitrary designation for Republicans plus some Democrats.
(By a UK/Eur standards about a quarter (?) of Dems easily count as right of centre!)
Someone like Noonan can be persuasive with them.
@Jay L Gischer:
Chuckles Koch does what he does because Democrats will raise his taxes (they will), make him clean up after his oil and chemical spills (they will), he owns the Federalist Society (with others) and the Law and Economics movement and wants the pro-corporate lawyers they’ve trained to be appointed judges (Democrats won’t), and long term he wants to set up some sort of anti-democratic glibertarian paradise (for billionaires). Trump was something of a bump in the road for Koch as Trump wasn’t beholden to Koch and doesn’t understand the game, but Koch’s lackey, Mike Pence, has been doing very well for him, filling the bureaucracy with Koch apparatchiks. As has Moscow Mitch in appointing judges. Koch has been playing a long game and for him I doubt anything has changed. Except that he’s allowed the Tea Party to lie fallow and may, with a D back in office, restart it. And I worry that it would be a short downhill slide for him to cultivate ties with militia types.
@Sleeping Dog: I think more to the point, voting for impeachment would be a way for GOPs to start whitewashing their reputations.
@Mu Yixiao: I dunno. I’m still trying to figure out how it’s now pleaded instead of pled.
@Just nutha ignint cracker: https://imotions.com/blog/the-stroop-effect/
Just spotted this from NBC:
@Michael Reynolds:
This dude pretty connected to GOP:
https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1347534423458197506
Lots more at https://twitter.com/gtconway3d
Twitter just permanently suspended Trump’s account!
@Jim Brown 32: I take great pleasure in needling my brother-in-law who has worked at a firm that at times has employed both Jack Abramoff and Rudy Giuliani.
During my time in the service I was never in Kelly’s orbit, but was in Flynn’s. Many people who worked near him did consider him a savant, but he also raised a lot of eyebrows. I don’t think Kelly or Flynn are indicative of the majority of those in the service. Interestingly, although polls seem to indicate otherwise for the military as a whole, I never found organizations I was in to be particularly Republican.
@Tim:
Twitter said they didn’t want to risk further incitement of violence.
Trump will go off the deep end, if he hasn’t already.
Also: Apple has given the Parler 24 hours to clean itself up or be deleted from the App store
And
Reddit Bans r/Conspiracy Moderator and r/DonaldTrump
Flynn twitter account suspended.
I wonder if a word has gone out from some National Security office that it’s time to stop playing footsie?
Twitter just permanently suspended Trump’s account!@CSK:
Here’s the link to Twitter’s full statement with their analysis as to why they believe his last two tweets today represented a potential incitement of violence.
https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspension.html
Also, can you imagine being the aide who had to tell him it happened? Or listen to him go ballistic if he learned it by watching TV?
@JohnSF:
Could be! Also, I imagine the tech companies see the writing on the wall and know that changes will be coming to Section 230. By policing themselves now, perhaps the smart ones hope to mitigate any serious action that would hurt them terribly.
@Teve:
The “bodies” in 300 were CGI.
It is pretty adorable she thought that was real.
Snyder is such a complete hack.
@Mu Yixiao: I hate a damp windy winter’s day. You know what is worse than working outside in those conditions? Working inside in those conditions. I spent too many of my winters working in that shit and worse.
@Kingdaddy:
Okay. I will read it. But I will hold you responsible if it is crap.
@Tim:
From what I’ve read, he’s been raving around the White House like a maniac and screaming at his aides for the past three days. His behavior is making it easier for the 25th Amendment to be invoked.
@OzarkHillbilly:
I’d take a dry cold over a humid cold any day of the week.
Even if the dry cold was 15 degrees colder.
With proper gear dry cold is not really a big thing. Easy to mitigate.
Cold and damp is nasty.
@de stijl:
As a long timey Ancient History fanboi, it really cheesed me off that 300 showed hoplites fighting unarmoured.
The armour was the point of those guys.
(Well, and the spears LOL)
Also, the Spartans were such a bunch of a@@holes.
And at Termopylae at the last fight there may have been 300 Spartans, but there also at least as many Thebans and Thespians.
And Xerxes should sue.
Looks stylish though, I grant.
Soooo….now that all those “very concerned” Republicans no longer have to fear the mean tweets, are the “impeachment/banned from running for public office” odds better?
@Kingdaddy:
It did not totally suck, but her endless self- absorption and relentless gate-keeping is not something I can easily overlook.
Ooh, yet more techy drawing of lines: Google suspends Parler app from Play Store citing lack of moderation
@JohnSF:
Hoplites need to be is a square or properly fronting.
Hoplites were not great soldiers. Not their job – they were trained to keep their spears at a proper angle when confronted and absorb the impact until their peers could flank.
@de stijl:
Sucker Punch is one of the worst movies I have ever seen.
Jena Malone did okay. That woman is hard-core.
Hyper sexualized masturbatory war fantasy. Fuck me, that was horrible.
@de stijl:
Yep. IIRC if an enemy could get them out of formation, hoplites were toast.
Gauls (Galatians) did it; Romans did it; Greeks themselves did it (at Lecuhion? Lechaion? Athenian light infantry vs Spartans).
I think Xenophon in Anabasis remarked that hoplites needed light troops on the flanks to win.
IIRC only hoplites with a rep for individual combat as well as formed ranks were the Theban Sacred Band; who broke the Spartans at Leuctra.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha RIP my sides
https://twitter.com/barronjohn1946/status/1347694753786200064?s=19
I have played too much Rome: Total War.
I always play as Brutii and rush to buy as many mercenary hoplites and Cretan archers as I can as quickly as possible.
@de stijl:
Ate two, Brutus?
@gVOR08:
Yes, that as well.
@JohnSF:
At least “ate” and “two” were not red-underlined before you hit the button.
I have a strategy to scoop up as much territory as possible just north and west of Greece and Macedonia and sit and build my economy. Usually Greece attacks me first.
The Grecian cities offer amazing buffs if you build them out properly with the right temple path.
Hard to attack (see hoplites) but if you crack them, great benefits.
@JohnSF:
It is intriguing that you spelled the first word as “ate”. Americans would pronounce it as “et”.
Latin pronunciations were literally made up by professors.
Even though they had extant Latinate languages to explore from.
One of my favorite classes was in linguistics. The professor was such a bad-ass. She was a native German speaker.
It was a delight to hear her to try to say jazz correctly. “Yatz” was her first take.
It was pretty fucking adorable. She was a super cool lady. I liked that class a lot and linguistics in general. Took three more classes. I am basically 3/5ths on my way to a linguistics major.