Is Tim Pawlenty Running For President, Or Pope?

Tim Pawlenty said in a speech on Friday that America needs to "turn toward God."

In his speech to the Faith and Freedom Conference on Friday, former Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty sounded more like a guy trying to lead a religious revival than a candidate for President:

Tim Pawlenty positioned himself as the 2012 GOP field’s most experienced social conservative, touting his opposition to abortion, defense of traditional marriage and devout Christianity.

“The best sermons aren’t preached, they’re lived,” he told the Faith & Freedom Conference in Washington on Friday.

The former Minnesota governor pointed to his record, arguing that the evangelical and social conservatives in the audience should trust that over whatever rhetoric they hear from all the other presidential candidates who address them.

“You’re going to say, ‘Boy, that sounds pretty similar,'” he said. “But I also hope you ask the question, ‘Who’s actually done it?’ Not just talking, who’s actually done it. In the land of Al Franken, we moved the needle on all of it.”

Pawlenty struck a more religious tone linking his usual stump speech themes of fiscal responsibility and American greatness stump speech to Christian thinking.

“We need to be a nation that turns toward God, not away from God,” he said.

Now I understand that Pawlenty was speaking before a group of religious social conservatives, and this this is a demographic that he is trying hard to attract in 2012. However, is it really appropriate for Presidential candidates to be making appeals like this? Pawlenty’s comments strike me as being different from the “God Bless America” that President’s typically include at the end of major national address; that’s a generic public expression of piety. Pawlenty’s comment, though, is a direct exhortation to Americans to adopt a specific religious belief. That strikes me as being just a little bit beyond the pale.

Of course, Pawlenty’s speech wasn’t designed to appeal to persons such as myself, so perhaps I’m reading too much to it. In general, though, I I’d prefer my Presidential candidates to take about policy and leave the religion to the preachers.

 

FILED UNDER: Campaign 2012, Religion, US Politics,
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. michael reynolds says:

    He’s desperate, and the GOP is composed of Money, Bombs and Jesus wings. He needs the Jesus wing. He’ll be supporting a DADT roll-back soon. Gotta feed the bigots if you want to make in the GOP.

  2. anjin-san says:

    This is the guy who just got finished telling us he is going to be his own man and let the chips fall where they may. Right.

  3. Eric Florack says:

    It strikes me that Pawlenty is speakingto his own thought,a nd being honest in the doing. And frankly, I don’t see that as a negative, as you apparently do. And of course the factor of whom it is he’s speaking to, cannot be under-estimated.

    ANd while Obama may reject the phrase “Christian Nation”,…..

    “We do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation,” he said. “We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values.”

    … three in four Americans still overtly identify themselves as Christian. So from a cultural perspective, Christianity is a more powerful motivator than Obama will readily admit. (Actually, the figure is 77%) Like it or not, Doug, what Pawlenty is speaking to is a vast majority, both in terms of religion, and in terms of culture. )

    Insist as you like, As Obama does, that there is no connection between Christianity and what he calls are I deal so and our cultural values , but it’s not true.

  4. michael reynolds says:

    Eric:

    I realize this is a waste of time, but can you source this:

    Insist as you like, As Obama does, that there is no connection between Christianity and what he calls are I deal so and our cultural values , but it’s not true.

  5. Eric Florack says:

    You did read the quote I posted, right?
    No, you obviously did not.

  6. michael reynolds says:

    Yes, Eric, and the quote does not say what you think it says.

    He does not say there’s no connection, he says we are not a “Christian nation.” There is a difference. It’s this: only an idiot would deny that Christianity has had a major influence on the US. But a “Christian nation” implies a special standing for Christianity in our government. It has no such special standing. It is one of the religions whose rights we guarantee in the Constitution.

    If we were a “Christian nation” we might, for example, require a religious test of public officials, rather than explicitly outlawing same.

    And we might have based the legitimacy of the Constitution on Christ or at least God, as opposed to resting legitimacy on The People and leaving God entirely out of the Constitution.

  7. You did read the quote I posted, right?
    No, you obviously did not.

    It strikes me that Reynolds is speakingto his own thought, and being honest in the doing. And frankly, I don’t see that as a negative, as you apparently do.

  8. Pete says:

    Michael, from where come the ideals and values? Perhaps that is why so many refer to this country as a Christian Nation; regardless of your interpretation.

  9. michael reynolds says:

    Pete:

    Which values? And try to break out the ones that are not equally derived from Judaism or from the Greeks or Romans.

  10. Eric,

    I wonder what you think of this quote:

    As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

    That’s from one of the first treaties the United States entered into under the Constitution.

    Or, how about this:

    H]ow about the tenth president, John Tyler, in an 1843 letter: “The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent — that of total separation of Church and State. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his Maker after his own judgment. The offices of the Government are open alike to all. No tithes are levied to support an established Hierarchy, nor is the fallible judgment of man set up as the sure and infallible creed of faith. The Mohammedan, if he will to come among us would have the privilege guaranteed to him by the constitution to worship according to the Koran; and the East Indian might erect a shrine to Brahma, if it so pleased him. Such is the spirit of toleration inculcated by our political Institutions.”

    Was Tyler too minor a president to be considered an authority on whether the U.S. is a Christian republic or not? Here’s George Washington in a letter to the Hebrew Congregation of Newport, Rhode Island in 1790: “The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy — a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support … May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants — while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid.”

    I guess those Founders were infected with that Kenyan anti-colonialist worldview that Newt Gingrich warned us about.

  11. michael reynolds says:

    Oh, and if you say, democracy, or tolerance are Christian values you’re going to run into heavy weather supporting it.

  12. Pete says:

    Let’s try to be proportional. I’m not excluding other religious ideals and values. But certainly the preponderance of ideals and values came from Christian influence, regardless when those ideas originated.

  13. Scott O. says:

    are I deal

    Is are children learning?

  14. Herb says:

    “Is Tim Pawlenty Running For President, Or Pope?”

    Alright, that cracked me up.

    “from where come the ideals and values?”

    The Enlightenment….when cultures across the world turned away from religion and towards reason.

  15. TG Chicago says:

    Also, if you believe that we are a “Christian Nation” because more than 50% of the population is Christian, then we are also a White Nation.

    (Hmm, some commenters here will gladly embrace that notion. Let me try again)

    If you believe that we are a “Christian Nation” because more than 50% of the population is Christian, then we are also a Female Nation.

    (they probably won’t like that one so much)

  16. Eric Florack says:

    He does not say there’s no connection, he says we are not a “Christian nation.” There is a difference.

    To the contrary. One can only believe that, if one believes that there is a total cultural disconnect between a religion and the values that it imposes and one’s daily life. It’s the only way you can draw the conclusion he does in that statement.

    I suggest you you’re going to have an extremely hard row to hoe backing that assertion.

  17. Eric Florack says:

    This same answer for you, Doug. There is a major difference between the government acting as a Christian based government, and the people doing so. The linchpin, is the degree to which Christianity infuses itself into the culture. At the 77% level that I quoted I’d suggest that at the cultural level it is well infused indeed.

  18. Herb says:

    certainly the preponderance of ideals and values came from Christian influence

    Which ones, though?

    I can’t even think of too many Christian ideals and values from today that Christians of, say, the 3rd or 11th Centuries, would have had. There’s a few medieval holdouts, no doubt, but the Christian notions of the 21st Century were shaped more by Enlightenment ideals than the other way around, I think.

  19. ponce says:

    Would it be appropriate for a Presidential candidate to say, “America needs to turn away from democracy?”

  20. anjin-san says:

    It’s worth noting that the Treaty of Tripoli was submitted to the senate by John Adams, and subsequently signed into law by him.

    I know, I know. All he ever did was draft the constitution of the commonwealth of Massachusetts, attend first and second Continental Congresses, help write the Declaration of Independence, nominate Washington to command the continental army, and serve as second President of the U.S. I mean, its not as if the dude had access to right wing radio and actually knew something about America.

  21. Pete says:

    Herb

    The Enlightenment….when cultures across the world turned away from religion and towards reason.

    Cultures across the world? Are you not being a little too generous? Asia, Africa, South America? perhaps you meant when predominantly European cultures transformed? And were they not predominantly influenced by Christian thought?

  22. anjin-san says:

    Kenyan anti-colonialist worldview that Newt Gingrich warned us about.

    You gotta wonder about ol’ Newt. After all, America was FOUNDED on an anti-colonialist worldview. I guess freedom and independence are only good things when it is white folks that aspire to them.

  23. TG Chicago says:

    You gotta wonder about ol’ Newt. After all, America was FOUNDED on an anti-colonialist worldview. I guess freedom and independence are only good things when it is white folks that aspire to them.

    It’s okay to be anti-colonialist if you are the one being colonized. But if you are the one doing the colonizing, of course it is totally awesome.

    It’s the essence of the Republican worldview: everything is fair and just… as long as I have an overwhelming advantage.

  24. michael reynolds says:

    Pete:

    Again, which ideals specifically?

  25. There is a major difference between the government acting as a Christian based government, and the people doing so.

    Which leads us back to my original point. The religious beliefs of the people, or lack thereof, are the business of the people, and their spiritual leaders. It isn’t appropriate, in my opinion, for politicians to be speaking in the manner Pawlenty did on Friday

  26. michael reynolds says:

    I would add that I don’t like it when Obama does the God Bless America thing and didn’t like it when previous presidents did it. They are politicians, not clergymen.

  27. Eric Florack says:

    Would it be appropriate for a Presidential candidate to say, “America needs to turn away from democracy?”

    Perhaps you’ve forgotten the major difference between a democracy and a representative Republic?

  28. Eric Florack says:

    The religious beliefs of the people, or lack thereof, are the business of the people, and their spiritual leaders. It isn’t appropriate, in my opinion, for politicians to be speaking in the manner Pawlenty did on Friday

    So the only kind of interface with government to religion you approve of is that which limits religion?

    you see, there is a major difference between government support of a religion per say, and government being openly hostile to it, which has been happening mostly under Liberal administration’s the last 60 years are so. That’s something he understands fairly well, apparently, as I’m sure it does his audience in that room.

    I have always held that the first duty of any government is to support the culture which gave that life, or at least not be hostile to it. . Indeed, it is the cultural differences that create the governmental differences in the various countries and cultures around the world. America as it is is no different.

    Now, to that point, I put to you a question; Is Pawlenty calling for government to force people to return to God as he puts it? barring that, I fail completely to see your objection. On the other hand, I find the government restrictions on first amendment rights pertaining to religion to be offensive in the extreme. Which party is it, do you suppose, that is prone to issuing such? Be honest, here.

    The Enlightenment….when cultures across the world turned away from religion and towards reason.

    Ummm…. No.

  29. Pete says:

    Michael, I’m not a student of Christianity nor well read on the subject. I started out suggesting that opinion like mine, which i presume to be the opinion of a fairly sizable chunk of the population as I consider myself pretty average, might conclude that we call this nation a Christian nation because we believe it was founded on, and has continued on, what we believed, rightly or wrongly, was the prevalence of Christian ideals and values. You know, stuff like the Golden Rule, the Ten Commandments, CS Lewis stuff, etc.

    I’m not trying to win an argument nor debate this. If I were, I wouldn’t take you on as I neither have , nor desire to have, the time to argue with someone who resides in Marin County (snark). And, frankly, I don’t care if I am wrong in my assumption. If I am, I accept my lack of knowledge and will be better informed for it.

  30. anjin-san says:

    Damn Marin County hippies!

  31. Herb says:

    perhaps you meant when predominantly European cultures transformed? And were they not predominantly influenced by Christian thought?

    Well, yes, “across the world” may be interpreted as “the entire world” but why pick nits?

    As for being predominantly influenced by Christian thought….no, we’re talking about the Enlightenment, not the Great Awakening.

  32. steve says:

    “On the other hand, I find the government restrictions on first amendment rights pertaining to religion to be offensive in the extreme”

    Such as? I would note that we pray at our public school all the time when we are involved in extracurricular activities.

    Steve

  33. michael reynolds says:

    Pete:

    That was an honest response, and I wasn’t trying to jam you up but to make the point that people throw around phrases like “Christian values” without knowing what they mean. A point you’ve basically accepted.

    What Christians fail to consider is that much of what they think of as unique to them, isn’t. Pretty much every society condemns murder, false witness, theft. (The Japanese don’t approve of murder any more than we do.)

    And many of our American virtues are actually directly at odds with Christianity and Judaism (and the rest of the monotheisms.) For example, you won’t find much about freedom of conscience or tolerance in the Bible. Rather the opposite. Tolerance comes to us by way of the Enlightenment and represents a counterpoint to Christian intolerance of opposing points of view. Democracy comes to us from Greece and the idea of representative democracy perhaps, arguably, from the Jews, but definitely not specifically from the Christians.

    Final point: as of today I am still an Orange County resident. I won’t be a Marinite until July at which point I predict I will quickly become annoyed by lefty tree-huggers.

  34. Perhaps you’ve forgotten the major difference between a democracy and a representative Republic?

    Well, there is no difference in the usage if the term “democracy” in the modern sense of the word, and “representative republic” so there really isn’t anything to forget.

  35. Scott O. says:

    You know, stuff like the Golden Rule, the Ten Commandments, CS Lewis stuff, etc.

    The golden rule predates Christianity though they incorporate it. Seems to be kind of universal. Of the 10 commandments, looks to me like only 2 of them made it into our laws thank God. CS Lewis stuff?

  36. Pete says:

    Thanks, Michael. I appreciate your candor. Herb, you too.

  37. Pete says:

    Scott O:

    I read Lewis’ “Mere Christianity.” Thought it very interesting; however, it was long ago that I read it and would not be able to come close to discussing it now. Too old and too tired.

  38. Eric Florack says:

    Such as? I would note that we pray at our public school all the time when we are involved in extracurricular activities.

    Really?

    Well, there is no difference in the usage if the term “democracy” in the modern sense of the word, and “representative republic” so there really isn’t anything to forget.

    That’s one of those things where the definition has been blurred by popular usage and the narrative of what we are and have been gets stolen from us.

  39. G.A.Phillips says:

    Umm, the Pope would try to get you to turn toward the Church not God.

  40. ponce says:

    Seeing as China

    may

    have found a better system than the one America has, isn’t it time we have a frank and open discussion about whether we should adopt China’s system?

    I mean, America has had no problem ramming the democracy+capitalism system down the throat of dozens of hapless third world nations because we thought our system was the best.

    The first step the Commies took when they seized power was to discourage religion…

  41. John Weiss says:

    Eric,

    You said, “you see, there is a major difference between government support of a religion per say, and government being openly hostile to it, which has been happening mostly under Liberal administration’s the last 60 years are so.”

    How have Liberal administrations been hostile to any religion? Much less the predominate one? I suppose, if that’s true, then those damned Liberals just don’t want to be re-elected, right?

  42. Robert in SF says:

    Christianity (of which I am a member, by the way) doesn’t own the patent or the copyright to any values or principles (some beliefs, yes, but not values or principles).

    What exactly are those values and principles that Christianity owns that America exhibits as a country (not as people, but as a country)? Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

    Democracy (or a democratic republic)?
    Capitalism?
    Tax and legal benefits for married persons?
    Economic policies?

    @Eric, re: ” you see, there is a major difference between government support of a religion per say, and government being openly hostile to it, which has been happening mostly under Liberal administration’s the last 60 years are so”

    Citations please…or you’re parroting a talking point without thought.

  43. Liberty60 says:

    I am a white, Christian male, living Santa Ana, Ca, a city that is majority minority (Vietnamese and Hispanic).

    There was an interesting discussion recently about a movement to have the City Council declare Santa Ana to be a “Hispanic” city.

    What was interesting is that several Hispanic people made the argument that since Santa Ana is, as a matter of fact, majority Hispanic, we should simply acknowledge that fact.
    I opposed it, on the grounds that calling us a “Hispanic” city sends a message to everyone else that we are not welcome.

    I think when people strive to declare America a “Christian” nation, they remember that this will come back to bite them in the ass when we become a majority-minority nation.

  44. anjin-san says:

    government being openly hostile to it

    Perhaps you could support this claim…

  45. Eric Florack says:

    How have Liberal administrations been hostile to any religion? Much less the predominate one? I suppose, if that’s true, then those damned Liberals just don’t want to be re-elected, right?

    Funny you should mention that… it’s a point Steve Walman, writing for Steve Benen , who used to write here, and with whom I’ve had many disagreements, made just recently.

  46. G.A.Phillips says:

    http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23

    Keep believing what you will the truth don’t care….

  47. anjin-san says:

    I think when people strive to declare America a “Christian” nation, they remember that this will come back to bite them in the ass when we become a majority-minority nation.

    I was having the same thought. California as a whole is pretty close to the tipping point. I suspect guys like bit only support the percentage theory when it favors them. If Dearborn goes 51% Muslim, can they rename it the Islamic City of Dearborn? Implement Sharia Law?

  48. anjin-san says:

    Funny you should mention that…

    So you are supporting your claim with… an unsupported claim.

  49. you see, there is a major difference between government support of a religion per say, and government being openly hostile to it, which has been happening mostly under Liberal administration’s the last 60 years are so.”

    See the problem is that what evangelicals consider “hostility” is actually government neutrality, which is the default position the state ought to take on religious issues

  50. TG Chicago says:

    @Florack:

    I have always held that the first duty of any government is to support the culture which gave that life

    So the first duty of the US government is to support landowning white males. Interesting.

  51. John Weiss says:

    Doug, I think that’s right.

    anjin-san, ol’ Eric has to use heresay and boujwah, cause he’s wrong. In his defense, he may not know that he’s wrong. If he knows he’s wrong…

  52. TG Chicago says:

    See the problem is that what evangelicals consider “hostility” is actually government neutrality, which is the default position the state ought to take on religious issues

    Indeed. As I said earlier, it’s the essence of the Republican worldview: everything is fair and just… as long as I have an overwhelming advantage. Take away the advantage, and you’re being “hostile”.

    Also, I’m looking forward to those who support the Pawlenty position answering Robert in SF’s challenge:

    What exactly are those values and principles that Christianity owns that America exhibits as a country (not as people, but as a country)? Please cite book, chapter, and verse.

  53. sam says:

    Why I support the separation of church and state (and you should, too):

    G.A.Phillips says:
    Sunday, June 5, 2011 at 14:53

    Umm, the Pope would try to get you to turn toward the Church not God.

  54. G.A.Phillips says:

    Also, I’m looking forward to those who support the Pawlenty position answering Robert in SF’s challenge:

    Two historians at the University of Houston did a 10-year study of the ideas that shaped our republic. They started with 15,000 documents from the Colonial era, which were boiled down to 3,154 statements. The three most quoted individuals were French philosopher Montesquieu (8.3 percent), English jurist William Blackstone (7.9 percent) and English philosopher John Locke (2.9 percent). But Biblical citations dwarfed them all. Ninety-four percent of the founding fathers quotes were based on the Bible–34 percent directly from its pages and 60 percent from men who had used the Bible to arrive at their conclusions.

    http://www.alliance4lifemin.org/articles.php?id=23

    You look um up.

    Why I support the separation of church and state (and you should, too):

    lol, I dang sure support the separation of the Catholic Church and State:)

    And sam please stop spreading that church and state nonsense or before you know it our citizens will start to believe it’s in the Constitution or something…..

  55. ponce says:

    anjin-san, ol’ Eric has to use heresay and boujwah, cause he’s wrong. In his defense, he may not know that he’s wrong.

    Reality has a well known left wing bias.

    Can you blame the wingnuts for ignoring it?

  56. G.A.Phillips says:

    Oh and what we are now? We are a nation ruled by few judges here and there…..what ever you call that…I call it sucks…

  57. G.A.Phillips says:

    ponce, ain’t you got some mice to kill or a screen door to scratch holes in or something?

  58. Murray says:

    For my part I am already sick and tired of the generic public expressions of piety such as “God Bless America”. I find them idolatrous and blasphemous., and I won’t say what I think of Pawlenty’s pandering because I don’t want to be gross.

    The word God means so many different things to different people that the only reason public figures use it is to pander to a maximum of people with a single word.

  59. OzarkHillbilly (used to be tom p) says:

    Of course, Pawlenty’s speech wasn’t designed to appeal to persons such as myself, so perhaps I’m reading too much to it.

    As an atheist let me say that I think both sides in this discussion are making too much of it. This is dog-whistle politics and both sides react with great predictability.

  60. sam says:

    @GA

    lol, I dang sure support the separation of the Catholic Church and State:)

    And sam please stop spreading that church and state nonsense or before you know it our citizens will start to believe it’s in the Constitution or something…..

    What don’t you take that chickenshit, smalltown, peckerwood religious bigotry of your’s and stick it back into the know-nothing cesspool where it originated.

  61. Robert in SF says:

    @ GA: you linked to an interesting article with an awful lot of claims of facts in it. But they don’t link to any corroborating documents to back up those claims. And this 10 year study you reference (or take from the article’s reference) only shows, if taken completely at face value, that the founding fathers cited the Bible a lot and found it inspirational. And it is, there is some great stuff in there.

    Dealing with immigrants: Exodus 22:21 Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

    Various social safety nets: Deuteronomy 15:11: “For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.”

    Diplomacy, foreign aid: Proverbs 25:21: “If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink”

    Rebellion against the gub’mint!: Romans 13: 1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

    Paying taxes: Romans 13: 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

    But again, my point is: what are the values and principles that you think America owns solely, that come only from the Bible, or from the organized Christian religion (I would say Church, but I don’t want to encourage the sue of the word Church to mean anything other than the collected Christians, regardless of fiscal membership to a particular “franchise”)?

    I listed a few to get the counterpoint started, but no one yet has tried to substantiate those I posted, or added others, with the Biblical citations…

  62. G.A.Phillips says:

    Sorry Robert I used your question to pick at Harry, and I would look to our creed the Declaration of Independence, I don’t know how else to answer your question and I am no teacher.

    If you want to gain more understanding of where I am coming from and see more of what I think you want to have explained look at this. Its kind of massive and I am better at showing where I lean then like I said, teaching.

    http://vftonline.org/EndTheWall/TrinityHistory.htm

  63. Eric Florack says:

    Actually, I’m far from wrong. Witness…. you’ve yet to prove me wrong.

  64. G.A.Phillips says:

    What don’t you take that chickenshit, smalltown, peckerwood religious bigotry of your’s and stick it back into the know-nothing cesspool where it originated.

    lol…Shall I move on to the religion of secular humanism and how in hypocrisy I want that separated from the state?

    peckerwood lol…..

  65. anjin-san says:

    Actually, I’m far from wrong.

  66. sam says:

    “lol…Shall I move on to the religion of secular humanism and how in hypocrisy I want that separated from the state?”

    Ah, yes, that perennial crap. Let’s visit your hypocrisy , GA. Were it not for the liberalism you condemn all the time (and in your small-bore mind, liberalism=secular humanism), there would be no Medicare or Medicaid. And without those programs, those state, gubmint programs, someone like you — convicted felon, no education, no skills, no prospects, with severe physical ailments — would die unattended and uncared for. Think about that the next time you start your bullshit. lofvckingl.

  67. OzarkHillbilly (used to be tom p) says:

    Shall I move on to the religion of secular humanism

    GA, here is the diff between you and us: We know it is not a religion, just a point of view. You on the other hand can not concieve of a point of view outside of religion.

    For some of us (most?) that is OK. If your point of view is defined by your religion… Hey, we all start from somewhere. My point of view?

    I start from somewhere as well. Reality. And before you get on your high horse, let me just stipulate that God is not a provable theory. You want to beleive in God? Fine… Good even.

    But I need more. I will respect your belief in God as sincere, But I need more. (remember the apostle Thomas? The doubting Thomas?)(yeah, my parents named me appropiately)

  68. G.A.Phillips says:

    Ah, yes, that perennial crap. Let’s visit your hypocrisy , GA. Were it not for the liberalism you condemn all the time (and in your small-bore mind, liberalism=secular humanism), there would be no Medicare or Medicaid. And without those programs, those state, gubmint programs, someone like you — convicted felon, no education, no skills, no prospects, with severe physical ailments — would die unattended and uncared for. Think about that the next time you start your bullshit. locking.

    Sam you have crap for a mind and an education and if you had any clue about anything you would know what your garbage religion of rewritten educated guesses has led this country to. I am a product of falling for your sorry excuse for a culture and or religion.
    You are a sad angry old man who likes to attack people who share their faults with you because of your week and completely blown away arguments.
    Grow the hell up.

  69. G.A.Phillips says:

    GA, here is the diff between you and us: We know it is not a religion, just a point of view. You on the other hand can not conceived of a point of view outside of religion.

    http://vftonline.org/Patriarchy/definitions/humanism_religion.htm

    I start from somewhere as well. Reality. And before you get on your high horse, let me just stipulate that God is not a provable theory. You want to believe in God? Fine… Good even.

    I got my belief in God mostly from comparing creation SIENCE to the evolution crap I was indoctrinated with half of my life, the evidence is undeniable Tom. Like I keep trying to tell you I used to think just like you guys, lol, well except for the commie union crap and the anti Americanism:) I was a strait off tree hugging free porn speech advocate!

    I know I am a sucky example of a Christian, the reason I call myself a true believer, I still hope for your salvation regardless and for my repentance to to be lived up to one.Craps is hard for me but my fault for giving into my flesh. I have great struggles but then I don’t do what I should, I don’t stay in the Word and can’t stay away from my friends nor keep my mouth or typer shut. Forgive me, I have been trying to be better but as you say I do believe that I am certifiable. Staying up for weeks strait and all that, drug addled, plus football and bar and gang fight damage take its toll on a brother.

  70. Eric Florack says:

    So the first duty of the US government is to support landowning white males.

    No. I said nothing of race or sex. I said “Culture”. You do understand the difference?

  71. Markey says:

    “I said nothing of race or sex. I said “Culture”.
    ————————————-
    White christian culture? Like the John Birch society?

  72. TG Chicago says:

    No. I said nothing of race or sex. I said “Culture”. You do understand the difference?

    I look forward to your explanation.