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Texas Senate Passes Abortion Bill

abortion-law

Avoiding the procedural issues that stopped it two weeks ago, the Texas Senate managed to pass an abortion bill that bans most abortions after 20 weeks and, critics say, regulates abortion to such an extent to make it unavailable to many many women:

AUSTIN, Tex. — The Texas Senate gave final passage on Friday to one of the strictest anti-abortion measures in the country, legislation championed by Gov. Rick Perry, who rallied the Republican-controlled Legislature late last month after a Democratic filibuster blocked the bill and intensified already passionate resistance by abortion-rights supporters.

The bill would ban abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy and hold abortion clinics to the same standards as hospital-style surgical centers, among other requirements. Its supporters say that the strengthened requirements for the structures and doctors will protect women’s health; opponents argue that the restrictions are actually intended to put financial pressure on the clinics that perform abortions and will force most of them to shut their doors.

Mr. Perry applauded lawmakers for passing the bill, saying, “Today the Texas Legislature took its final step in our historic effort to protect life.” Legislators and anti-abortion activists, he said, “tirelessly defended our smallest and most vulnerable Texans and future Texans.”

Debate over the bill has ignited fierce exchanges between lawmakers and tense confrontations between opponents of the bill, who have worn orange, and supporters of the bill, wearing blue. Signs and slogans have been everywhere, bearing long, impassioned arguments or the simple scrawl on a young man’s orange shirt, a Twitter-esque “@TXLEGE: U R dumb.”

The bill had come nearly this far before: a version had been brought to the Senate in the previous session of the Legislature, in June, and was killed by State Senator Wendy Davis, a Democrat from Fort Worth, with an 11-hour filibuster that stalled the bill until after the deadline for ending the session. The filibuster became an overnight sensation on Twitter and other forms of social media, with more than 180,000 people viewing the filibuster live online.

Almost immediately, however, Mr. Perry called for another special session to reconsider the bill, resulting in Friday night’s vote.

The fight has been heavy with symbols. The House bill’s author, Representative Jodie Laubenberg, a Republican from Parker, dangled a pair of baby shoes before her as she spoke on Tuesday; Representative Senfronia Thompson, who offered an early amendment to the bill, was flanked by colleagues holding wire hangers, representing the brutal abortion methods they said would return if legitimate clinics were run out of business.

Ms. Laubenberg has said that the bill would close no abortion clinics, adding, “It is time these clinics put patients ahead of profits.”

Supporters of the bill in the Legislature have been angered by the language of their opponents. During floor debate on Tuesday, Representative Jason Villalba, a Republican of Dallas, said, “I shall stand with Texas women, but I shall stand here no longer and be accused of conducting a ‘war on women.’ ” He said, “We care for and we fight for human baby lives,” and showed a sonogram of his own child at 13 weeks. “I will fight, and I will fight, and I will fight to protect my baby.”

During the Senate debate, the dean of the Senate, John Whitmire, who is a Democrat, angrily told Senator Dan Patrick, a Republican, “I can’t sit here and let you question my faith.”

(…)

The passage of the bill, by a vote of 19 to 11 just before midnight, was no surprise. Hours earlier, State Senator Royce West, a Democrat who represents Dallas, asked lawmakers to add one of the 20 proposed amendments, but said, “The die is cast. We know the bill is going to pass.”

To explain why he and his colleagues continued to fight when the outcome was certain, Mr. Watson, the chairman of the Senate Democratic caucus, earlier in the week posted a Facebook photo showing an orange T-shirt bearing a statement: “A foregone conclusion has never stopped a group of citizens committed to ideals of democracy and liberty from taking a stand and fighting with everything they’ve got. This is Texas, baby. Remember the Alamo.”

The next step will be a court challenge to the new law almost before Mr. Perry’s signature has time to dry; the many proposed amendments and discussion of them were clearly intended to build a record that could eventually be reviewed by the courts.

This was, of course, a foregone conclusion given the partisan makeup of the Texas Senate and the fact that State Senator Wendy Davis’s filibuster only worked because it came at the tail end of the a Special Session that was nearing its very end. If she kept up the filibuster long enough, the clock would run out on the session and the bill would die. Davis didn’t quite get there but she got close enough, and the protest from the gallery, which really wasn’t appropriate in my opinion, managed to prevent the Senate from taking action on the bill. Once Governor Perry called a second Special Session, the result was, as I said previously, inevitable. Now, as noted, come the legal challenges. Similar laws in at least three states have been challenged and are currently blocked by the Federal Court injunctions, and many are expecting the same thing to happen to the Texas law eventually. Where it goes from there is anyone’s guess.

Texas isn’t the only state that’s been pushing forward an abortion ban. A similar bill was also pushed through the North Carolina legislature this week:

The North Carolina House passed a controversial bill Thursday, 74-41. The bill accomplishes two otherwise unrelated goals: it restricts access to abortion, and increases safety for motorcyclists.

The bill would place new requirements on women’s health clinics that could make it difficult for many of them to stay open, and would allow the state’s health department to create temporary rules for North Carolina’s abortion clinics as it sees fit. The bill also prohibits government-administered insurance plans (including the Affordable Care Act) to pay for abortions and would require a doctor to be present when a patient is administered abortion-inducing drugs.

During Thursday’s three-hour debate over the motorcycle bill, House Speaker Thom Tillis reminded legislators to stay on topic as members on both sides of the aisle spoke passionately about women’s health and rights.

Democratic State Rep. Beverly Earle rose to debate the bill by introducing herself as a motorcyclist, adding, “I want to let my motorcycle buddies know when I vote against this, it’s not because I don’t care about their safety.”

(…)

House Republicans had inserted the abortion language into the bill Wednesday with no public notice, despite veto threats from Gov. Pat McCrory. The bill now goes to the full Senate for a vote.

The State Senate is controlled by the GOP and Governor McCrory has said that he will sign the bill, so it’s likely that this will become law within a week or so. There was no explanation, of course, for why passage of this bill was so urgent that it needed to be hidden inside a bill related to motorcycle safety with little to no public debate prior to it actually hitting the floor. Instead, it was quite obviously an effort by the state GOP to take advantage of their majority by rushing through a bill like this in the hopes that people won’t pay attention to the details. Although it’s unclear how anyone thought they could get away with that in the days of digital media.

In any case, it’s quite obvious that the Republican Party is back in full social conservative mode, at least at the state level. Perhaps that will work out for them in red states like Texas and North Carolina, but it seems quite apparent that it’s not going to help at all in other parts of the country, especially when poll after polls shows that the American people are far more concerned about things like jobs and the economy than they are about further restricting access to abortion. But, hey, this is the path they’ve chosen I suppose.

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About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May, 2010 and also writes at Below The Beltway. Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. Woody says:

    The same folk calling special sessions (which had to be called after getting caught cheating at the regular session’s conclusion) and attaching abortion bills to anti-sharia and motorcycle bills with (as noted) zero debate are the same folk who have never stopped screeching that the ACA was “forced down” America’s throat after a year of wrangling and debate.

    The same folk who never tire of complaining about Big Government Regulation continually propose and pass preposterously detailed requirements burdening those deemed unworthy.

    The same folk who claim wise money management to justify slashing food assistance – which literally takes food from children – are the same that give exhorbitant sums to already wealthy people in Big Ag and Defense.

    They will never change until those in their ranks who are truly ethical citizens make them stop. Republicans once did that against Uncle Joe Cannon; Democrats against FDR’s court-packing scheme. It can be done.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 26 Thumb down 2

  2. elizajane says:

    Dear Republicans,
    It was just not good idea to push through legislation that will make it almost impossible for poor women in Texas to get abortions at ANY time in their pregnancy on the very same day that you nixed Food Stamps from the federal Farm Bill. Did you actually want to broadcast the fact that you ONLY care about children BEFORE they are born? And that you care not at all for poor women?
    I mean, it’s just so… obvious.
    Many liberals have no objection to the 20-week rule (with appropriate exceptions). But by forcing the closure of almost all women’s health clinics that perform abortions throughout the state of Texas, you just make it so, so obvious that this is NOT about “viable babies” at all.
    Your idiocy, not to say cruelty, is on display.
    Thank you,
    A concerned Democrat

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 24 Thumb down 1

  3. al-Ameda says:

    Pro-life until birth.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 20 Thumb down 1

  4. Latino_in_Boston says:

    Being of a catholic background, I can definitely understand the passion of those who consider abortion to be murder. The problem is precisely that they only seem to care about the children before they are born. After that, good luck!

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 1

  5. James Pearce says:

    Good on John Whitmire for saying “I can’t sit here and let you question my faith.”

    It’s shocking, I know, but not everyone shares the religious views of social conservatives.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 0

  6. steve s says:

    they don’t even care about the health of the unborn They basically just want to punish those dirty sluts who can’t keep their legs together.

    Highly-rated. Helpful or Unhelpful: Thumb up 17 Thumb down 0

  7. C. Clavin says:

    It’s gods choice that these children are protected so that they can reach their full potential to shoot themselves in the face with an unregulated gun.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  8. Jenos Idanian says:

    Stay Classy, pro-choicers. Stay classy.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 13

  9. Jenos Idanian says:

    Well, darn. Now Kermit Gosnell will have to find somewhere else to resume his practice once he’s no longer a guest of the state of Pennsylvania.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 14

  10. anjin-san says:

    @ Latino_in_Boston

    My wife attends a Catholic church that considers their primary mission to be helping the poor, they work very hard at it. I am not a church going guy, but I spent some time there last year planning a memoria service and was very impressed by the genuine humility and devotion to helping one’s fellow man I encountered.

    Sadly, quiet a few “Christian conservatives” in this country see poverty as a character flaw. They seem to have missed the parts where Jesus talks about caring for the poor.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 2

  11. anjin-san says:

    @ Steve S

    They basically just want to punish those dirty sluts who can’t keep their legs together.

    It always seems to come back to this. I suspect that a large percentage of the men that support legislation designed to let men dictate control of women’s bodies have had very little luck with women in their lives. The rage they display is coming from somewhere.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 2

  12. Jenos Idanian says:

    I’m going to repeat my earlier question: why is it that the only area where liberals are full-throated champions of freedom, unfettered by any kind of responsibility to The Collective, is in relation to sex? Everywhere else, it seems, people need to be protected from the consequences of making “wrong” choices by limiting their choices. But when it comes to sex, though…

    Are you that obsessed with your wee-wees and hoo-hahs?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 13

  13. elizajane says:

    @steve s:

    “They basically just want to punish those dirty sluts who can’t keep their legs together.”

    I used to think that this was just a left-wing parody of the right but if you go onto NRO’s “The Corner,” not to mention less “upscale” conservative sites, the commenters actually say this quite frequently. Sometimes they use euphemisms like “take responsibility for your own actions, ladies” but quite often they directly say “keep your legs together or deal with the consequences.” And they get lots of updings for that.

    I have lived a very sheltered life on the two coasts, even growing up with the Pennsylvania Dutch who are not your average hippies. There are a lot of people in other parts of this country whose attitudes appall me and who have recently figured out ways to wield a lot of power.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 1

  14. Andrew E. says:

    @Jenos Idanian: You’ve just created new Kermit Gosnells but you’re too stupid to understand why.

    Imagine just one Republican- just ONE- who says “you know what, these clinics do more than just abortions. They provide other vital services and if we’re going to shut them down we need to figure out other ways to provide these services”. But no. They want to restrict abortions AND cut welfare and services as much as they can. Thank god fetuses don’t need food stamps, right? The state can save on those costs.

    This is your 2013 Republican party.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 16 Thumb down 2

  15. anjin-san says:

    Are you that obsessed with your wee-wees and hoo-hahs

    Some people actually use theirs outside of the bathroom. That has real world consequences, to individuals, families, and society as a whole.

    No one expects you to understand any of this.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 3

  16. anjin-san says:

    Men’s health services from Planned Parenthood

    Some of the services include:

    – checkups for reproductive or sexual health problems
    – colon, prostate, and testicular cancer screenings
    – condoms and vasectomy
    – erectile dysfunction and premature ejaculation services, including education, exams, treatment, and referral
    – general health care and routine physical exams
    – jock itch exam and treatment
    – male infertility screening and referral
    – STD testing and treatment
    – urinary tract infections testing and treatment

    General health services from planned parenthood:

    – anemia testing
    – cholesterol screening
    – diabetes screening
    – physical exams, including for employment and sports
    – flu vaccines
    – help with quitting smoking
    – high blood pressure screening
    – tetanus vaccines
    – thyroid screening

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 2

  17. al-Ameda says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Are you that obsessed with your wee-wees and hoo-hahs?

    Clearly, Conservatives are the ones who are obsessed with (and I apologize if any conservatives are offended by this) penises and vaginas.

    Conservatives have no problem with unlimited freedom and legal insurance benefits for men who use Cialis and Viagra to help them impregnate their 22 year old secretaries, yet they have a problem with women who have sex for pleasure and who want to have their (abortion prevention) medicine subsidized too.

    American social conservatives seeking to limit a woman’s right to make her own reproductive health care choices would be right at home in the theocratic nations of the Middle East.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 13 Thumb down 2

  18. James Pearce says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    why is it that the only area where liberals are full-throated champions of freedom, unfettered by any kind of responsibility to The Collective, is in relation to sex?

    Since this question is rhetorical, surely you can answer it yourself.

    Heck, since it’s you, you don’t even have to worry about whether the answer’s right. The only concern is that it’s right wing.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 10 Thumb down 1

  19. Tillman says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    I’m going to repeat my earlier question: why is it that the only area where liberals are full-throated champions of freedom, unfettered by any kind of responsibility to The Collective, is in relation to sex? Everywhere else, it seems, people need to be protected from the consequences of making “wrong” choices by limiting their choices. But when it comes to sex, though…

    If I had to guess, it’d have something to do with ignorance.

    You have to be enormously stupid to not realize unprotected sex leads to a baby. On the other hand, you can be a perfectly-functioning and aware adult and not know why fracking or subprime mortgage-backed securities could be bad things.

    Essentially, the more complex or unknowable a danger is, the more likely a liberal will want regulation.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 1

  20. Pinky says:

    @anjin-san: Well, no one’s saying that Planned Parenthood can’t keep doing those things. If they’re not just an abortion outfit, they should do just fine. The FBI didn’t go after the mafia because of their charity work or union orgainizing; they went after them because they were involved in activities that were against the law.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 12

  21. Pinky says:

    @al-Ameda: Everything you said in this comment is wrong.

    Clearly, Conservatives are the ones who are obsessed with (and I apologize if any conservatives are offended by this) penises and vaginas.

    Conservatives are ok with penises and vaginas and sex. It’s the murdering after the sex that bothers them.

    Conservatives have no problem with unlimited freedom and legal insurance benefits for men who use Cialis and Viagra to help them impregnate their 22 year old secretaries, yet they have a problem with women who have sex for pleasure and who want to have their (abortion prevention) medicine subsidized too.

    Actually, this one is a little bit true. Conservatives are okay with legal insurance benefits but have a problem with medical subsidies. But what you said is like saying that conservatives are anti-truck because they believe in people buying cars but oppose government giveaways of trucks.

    American social conservatives seeking to limit a woman’s right to make her own reproductive health care choices would be right at home in the theocratic nations of the Middle East.

    Too stupid to bother commenting on.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 8

  22. Andrew E. says:

    @Pinky: The GOP has not hidden the fact they would defund and close down every Planned Parenthood if they could. The GOP has also made no secret they wish to cut welfare services to the bone as well as eliminate sex education not having to do with abstinence-only. The GOP has proposed nothing to replace the services listed by anjin-san in a low-cost or free manner, services the people most likely to consider abortion depend on.

    So I’ll ask you: if abortion is made illegal and education is cut and services to assist women before, during, and after pregnancy are cut, what do think will happen?

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 12 Thumb down 1

  23. James Pearce says:

    @Pinky:

    Well, no one’s saying that Planned Parenthood can’t keep doing those things.

    Oh, I see……you’re just saying they can’t do the things you don’t approve of. Got it.

    Hey, I know, I’m crazy and everything, but if that’s the case, why don’t you get a job at Planned Parenthood, move up the ranks into an executive position, and implement a policy change? Oh, that’s right….it’s soooooooo much easier to get a bunch of social conservatives in a red state to pass a law.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  24. anjin-san says:

    @ Pinky

    Conservatives are okay with legal insurance benefits but have a problem with medical subsidies.

    Let me ask you something. Let’s say, God forbid, that you (or someone you love) is tboned by a drunk driver tomorrow. It’s about as bad as it could be. You wake up in the hospital and find out you will be severely disabled for the rest of your life. You can’t work. Your insurance is quickly exhausted. The bills are pouring in. Your home needs to be retrofitted. You need nursing care. It’s all very, very expensive.

    Unless you have several million dollars in liquid assets, you are suddenly a pauper, a charity case.

    Do you accept help from the government, or do you stand on your principles start looking for an ice floe?

    ANYONE can have a catastrophic accident or illness. It happend to more than I few people I know.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  25. anjin-san says:

    The FBI didn’t go after the mafia because of their charity work or union orgainizing; they went after them because they were involved in activities that were against the law.

    Abortion is legal.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 14 Thumb down 0

  26. James Pearce says:

    @Pinky:

    It’s the murdering after the sex that bothers them.

    If someone was murdering someone after sex, that would be cause for concern.

    Wait, I get it……you’re equating abortion with murder. Cute.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 11 Thumb down 0

  27. Jenos Idanian #13 says:

    We’re talking about two sets of restrictions here: how far along into pregnancy can an abortion be performed, and imposing minimal standards for where an abortion is performed.

    The time limit is 20 weeks. The current record for fetal survival is 21 weeks, 5 days. So we’re talking about destroying viable fetuses.

    The standards are to make certain women are protected from substandard conditions in case of issues arising. Or, in simpler words, to prevent any more Kermit Gosnells.

    I mean, it’s not like we’re talking about the kinds of restrictions put on gun owners or drivers of motor vehicles or something here…

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 4

  28. al-Ameda says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    The standards are to make certain women are protected from substandard conditions in case of issues arising.

    The general purpose of the legislation is to make it as difficult as possible for a woman who has decided to have an abortion to have access to a facility that will perform the procedure. Of course, making it as difficult as possible for a woman to get an abortion will ensure that many woman in that situation will end up going to practitioners like Gosnell. Please, the health of the woman is one of the last things proponents of this legislation care about.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 8 Thumb down 0

  29. James Pearce says:

    @Jenos Idanian #13:

    The standards are to make certain women are protected from substandard conditions in case of issues arising.

    Right…….that’s why Rick Perry

    applauded lawmakers for passing the bill, saying, “Today the Texas Legislature took its final step in our historic effort to protect life.”

    Rick Perry knows what this bill was about.

    You, apparently, think we’re all too stupid to know what he means.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 9 Thumb down 0

  30. al-Ameda says:

    @Pinky:

    Me: American social conservatives seeking to limit a woman’s right to make her own reproductive health care choices would be right at home in the theocratic nations of the Middle East.
    You: Too stupid to bother commenting on.

    Given that this movement to significantly restrict the right of women to make their own reproductive health care decisions and choices is almost completely the province of Christian and Catholic conservatives it is hardly a stretch to infer (from their actions and their legislative initiatives) that these christian conservatives would be unhappy in a socially conservative theocratic state.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  31. wr says:

    @James Pearce: “You, apparently, think we’re all too stupid to know what he means. ”

    Let’s be fair to Jenos here. It is quite possible that he himself is too stupid to know what Rick Perry means.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 7 Thumb down 1

  32. C. Clavin says:

    “…why is it that the only area where liberals are full-throated champions of freedom, unfettered by any kind of responsibility to The Collective, is in relation to sex?…”

    That’s the dumbest f’ing thing I’ve ever read.
    What a maroon.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 4 Thumb down 2

  33. Jenos Idanian says:

    @al-Ameda: Of course, making it as difficult as possible for a woman to get an abortion will ensure that many woman in that situation will end up going to practitioners like Gosnell.

    Get real. Gosnell got away with his macabre butchery for as long as he did because pro-choice activists fought against any and all regulation of abortion, including health inspections and enforcement of standards of abortion facilities. He operated openly, above-board, and was the referral of choice for late term abortions.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 6

  34. Andre Kenji says:

    I know several people that are staunchly opposed to abortion. None of them are against Birth Control or government policies that provides Birth Control because they are logical people, not Republicans.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 5 Thumb down 0

  35. Jenos Idanian says:

    @Andre Kenji: Sorry, Andre. If you support any restriction at all on abortion, for any reason, you’re a womyn-hater and oppressor.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 4

  36. al-Ameda says:

    @Jenos Idanian:

    Get real. Gosnell got away with his macabre butchery for as long as he did because pro-choice activists fought against any and all regulation of abortion, including health inspections and enforcement of standards of abortion facilities. He operated openly, above-board, and was the referral of choice for late term abortions.

    Speaking of “get real.” You’re saying that Gosnell was a lousy practitioner because of pro-choice activists? That’s like saying that you believe that George Zimmerman was innocent because it’s natural to suspect that 17 year old Black kids are going to commit a crime.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  37. blue bunny farms says:

    @al-Ameda: I can never understand the misogyny behind (so called) pro lifers. The child is only important until birth, and if it is born to a poor minority, then it might as well have been born in a trash can or flushed down the toilet. i’ve always said, if men could become pregnant, abortions would be free and problaby located right next to the slurpee machine at 7-11

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 0

  38. Pinky says:

    @blue bunny farms: Here’s a chance for you to grow: if you can’t understand the misogyny behind people’s actions, when they claim they’re not woman-haters, maybe they’re telling the truth. Maybe Republican pro-life monsters that look just like you and me are people just like you and me, who are motivated by exactly what they say they are, not by what their opponents say they are. Do you get tired of idiot right-wingers who call you a pinko? Why? Because they’re wrong. You’re not motivated by what they say you are, and they’re not listening to you when you explain yourself. That’s what it’s like on this side, too.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  39. wr says:

    @Pinky: My heart is bleeding for you. How hard it must be to be called names when all you’re trying to do is control the most intimate aspects of the lives of millions of people. Why don’t they believe you when you insist that it’s only for their own good that you demand the right to control their reproductive systems? Why can’t they understand that you know far better than they whether it’s right for them to have a child?

    Oh, the humanity.You truly are the victim in all of this.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 2 Thumb down 0

  40. al-Ameda says:

    @Pinky:

    if you can’t understand the misogyny behind people’s actions, when they claim they’re not woman-haters, maybe they’re telling the truth.

    True, their intentions might not have been to suppress or subjugate women, but the result could well be exactly that.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0

  41. Pinky says:

    @al-Ameda: That’s actually a big concession. You don’t “like killing babies” and I don’t “hate women”. Sounds like two adults talking.

    Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0