New Tone: Jimmy Hoffa At Presidential Rally, “Let’s Take These Son Of A Bitches Out”

Teamsters President Jimmy Hoffa, Jr. apparently didn’t get the January memos about toning down political rhetoric, at least not judging by his speech today at a Detroit rally where President Obama spoke:

“We got to keep an eye on the battle that we face: The war on workers. And you see it everywhere, it is the Tea Party. And you know, there is only one way to beat and win that war. The one thing about working people is we like a good fight. And you know what? They’ve got a war, they got a war with us and there’s only going to be one winner. It’s going to be the workers of Michigan, and America. We’re going to win that war,” Jimmy Hoffa Jr. said to a heavily union crowd.

“President Obama, this is your army. We are ready to march. Let’s take these son of bitches out and give America back to an America where we belong,”

I suppose it isn’t surprising that a Teamsters President would talk this way, especially one with Hoffa’s pedigree. I’ve got to think there was a little bit of cringing among the White House staff at that one.

FILED UNDER: Barack Obama, Labor Unions, Politicians, Quick Takes, US Politics
Doug Mataconis
About Doug Mataconis
Doug holds a B.A. in Political Science from Rutgers University and J.D. from George Mason University School of Law. He joined the staff of OTB in May 2010. Before joining OTB, he wrote at Below The BeltwayThe Liberty Papers, and United Liberty Follow Doug on Twitter | Facebook

Comments

  1. Sounds like something similar to what Sarah Palin did to me!

    Which, I should add, was a made-up controversy created by hand-wringing liberals. Only this time, it’s going to be the conservatives hand-wringing while the liberals stay silent.

  2. Herb says:

    It’s been a long hot summer, dude. And passion flies both ways.

    I can’t wait to see what mean thing Obama says in his speech to Congress. Prepare the fainting couches….

  3. OldSouth says:

    Cringe, yes. Repudiate, never.

    Perhaps, unfortunately, not even a cringe.

    Remember, it’s the Chicago political tradition, practiced on a national stage.

    This is not good, for any of us, of any persuasion.

  4. WR says:

    How shockingly rude of this bad, bad man to suggest workers fight back when multi-billionaires are attempted to wipe out the possiblity of a middle-class existence in this country. Doesn’t he know that when his betters are busily working to slash their wages and benefits to give more to the handful of CEOs and owners that his responsiblity is to bend the knee like a good peasant?

    This keeps coming up in Doug’s posts, and it’s pretty obvious that if you scratch a “libertarian” you find a fan of feudal monarchy underneath.

  5. Tano says:

    I’m not cringing. I have always been averse to such language and imagery, but its time we faced reality. The Tea Party people have used this stuff very effectively to rile up their stooges, and it won them an election and given them the kind of buzz which keeps their movement in the news on a daily basis.

    Meanwhile the defenders of working people have, sad to say, wasted their time and gone backwards trying to talk about a “new tone” and transcending differences. Its time to end the unilateral disarmament. If the American people in their wisdom choose to reward the fiery rhetoric used by the right, then they well should have a strong alternative voice to consider going forward.

    Give ’em hell.

  6. Forbidden Jimmy says:

    Wow! What can one say about this? Vile heated hateful rhetoric calling for Tea Party people top be “taken out”.
    Earlier in the year Obama said those same people were “The enemy”.
    LAst week the CBC members were saying about the same people “”Some of them in Congress right now with this Tea Party movement would love to see you and me — hanging on a tree.”

    Taken together, this is no different than the Democrats Fourth Reich waiting for the ovens to fire up to “take out the enemy so they won’t hang anyone.”

    This type of failure to lead will only get worse as it gets closer to the election. I think I smell the Zyklon B coming from the progressive liberal headquarters at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave already.

  7. Forbidden Jimmy says:

    Oh, now we know why his father disappeared.

  8. Forbidden Jimmy says:

    I would love a comment from Hoffa on how he feels about his union members at GM and Chrysler not being able to strike when their contract runs out in little while.
    Quite a loss to union power that no one dares talk about! The loss of the strike is all they had before.

    And the union at the USPS paying for millions of hours not worked instead of letting workers go.

    Go unions! Look for the Union Label!

  9. gk1 says:

    Typical democratic rhetoric that will go unoticed or uncommented on by the MSM. What can you expect from a thug from the family of Hoffa? I’m glad he’s on your side, democrats!

  10. Forbidden Jimmy says:

    Thank you unions. Thank you for all the tens of thousands of jobs you created in robotics.
    Because of your demands over the past decades, the price of many made in America products are still affordable. Who could but a lawn tractor made in the USA with all human union labor wages and benefits being paid?
    I bought one made in Indiana in 1993 for $999. 12 HP 42″ cut no bells & whistles.
    I bought a new one made in the same plant in 2011 for $1150. 18HP 42″ cut automatic transmission and will accept plows snowblowers etc.

    Without automated and robotic welders and painters and intricate parts made by machines, that tractor today would be about $3000.

    Thank you unions.

    The automotive industry was the leader in the field. Without union labor costs and demands, the average auto would be $60,000 not $30,000.
    Those high tech hardware and software jobs you created around the world to build robots to do much of what you USED to do. The robots do it better and cheaper and longer without a break.
    No health care or retirement to pay. No worry about a robot striking.

    Thank you unions for getting our mail to us for 200 years until 40 years ago when the USPS forced collective bargaining.

    Was a nice run huh? 200 years only took you 40 to destroy.

    I guess we will have another union bailout soon, just I time for the election.

    That would stimulate jobs just like food stamps and unemployment does!

  11. An Interested Party says:

    Remember, it’s the Chicago political tradition, practiced on a national stage.

    Terribly ironic coming from someone with that pseudonym…next, we should talk about the Old South political tradition…

  12. Jay Tea says:

    This goes miles towards dispelling that long-held image of “union thugs.”

    Oh, and Jimmy? Why should that be a big deal? Part of the bailout deal preserved the union contracts untouched, when in a bankruptcy hearing they could (and most likely would) have been set aside. And the Obama administration still owns a healthy hunk of GM (bought with our money), so the negotiations should be pretty tame.

    J.

  13. Brian says:

    Um, guys? More to the story…

    http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109050003

  14. Jay Tea says:

    1) Media Matters complaining about selective editing? Oh, that’s rich.

    B) The context really doesn’t help make it any less thuggish.

    III) This makes me sad that they have finished the construction of the replacement for Giants Stadium.

    J.

  15. EddieInCA says:

    Doug, James –

    Perhaps an update is in order.

    Here’s the relevant portion that Fox edited out.

    HOFFA: Everybody here’s got to vote. If we go back and keep the eye on the prize, let’s take these son of a bitches out and give America back to America where we belong! Thank you very much!

    He’s speaking about VOTING. Of course, with Fox’s editing, you’d never know that.

  16. G.A.Phillips says:

    Parasite Idiot thinks he is in his dad’s movie. Talk some crap about my Momma to my face! lol….

    Off the freaking hook loser symbol of whats wrong with the political picture and mindset for far so many in this country.

    Plus their half hippie half block head voter army don’t stand a chance.

    Shame…Shame…Shame…lol, idiots….

  17. Jay Tea says:

    @EddieInCA: Eddie, I’d still like the FULL context of the quote, with a video. I’d be happier if someone would put together the full quote — note that Media Matters doesn’t give the full quote, just what they say is the entire missing part. And it doesn’t quite seem to match up with the quote from the video.

    Video transcript:

    President Obama, this is your army. We are ready to march. Let’s take these son of bitches out and give America back to an America where we belong.

    Media Matters:

    Everybody here’s got to vote. If we go back & keep the eye on the prize, let’s take these sons of bitches out.

    See what I mean? If Media Matters was really interested in giving the full context, they’d put in the part about the army and marching, show just how it all fit in.

    The Fox video does have an obvious cut, but it’d be better if there was a complete, uncut video. Plus, the SOBs in and of itself is pretty provocative.

    J.

  18. superdestroyer says:

    @WR:

    Unions are for open borders, unlimited immigration, no standards for education, unlimited public sector jobs, and taxing the crap out of the private sector.

    Please point to the policies that unions support that will grow the economy and allow American citizens to improve their standard of living. Inflating wages along with high taxes and high regulations will not make real wages go up.

  19. Jay Tea says:

    Oh, and everyone seems intent on cleaning up Hoffa’s grammar: he clearly says “son of a bitches.”

    J.

  20. concreteblue says:

    @Jay Tea., gk1 and Forbidden Jimmy-hat:…” how tame..”SOB’S”…lol…Makes a FLush Rimjob or Sean Vannity quote look tame by comparison…didn’t hear you calling THEM out….typical CONservative hypocrisy.

  21. Liberal Capitalist says:

    … ’bout freakin time !

    There should be NO apologies !

    It’s obvious that the far right has gone SO far to the right, and they feel SO empowered, that to the rest of us they no longer seem American in thought or in action.

    So, Hear Here! Take ’em out !

    Via organization, and action at the ballot box, of course. :O)

  22. I honestly wish their was more talk like this, civility in politics is bullshit. Granted I dont see a damms worth a difference between liberalism and conservatism. Just different forms of statism. I would also like to note that many union critics on the right never ever complain about government thug unions aka Police Unions. They simply squawk their “law and order” bs and call it a day.

  23. Jay Tea says:

    @New York Cynic: When was the last time a police union did something particularly obnoxious or asshatty? The right is not too thrilled about the police’s “war on photography” and there are a few folks who are really, really, really unhappy about the Las Vegas’ police killing of Erik Scott. And let’s not forget Radley Balko (libertarian, but hardly a liberal — unless you consider libertarianism a form of “classic liberalism,” which is nothing like today’s liberalism) pretty much single-handedly got (falsely) convicted “cop-killer” Cory Maye.

    There very well might be examples of police union asshattery that I can’t think of right now, but honestly — none come to mind.

    OK, one just came to mind: Republicans and conservatives in Massachusetts (a very small minority) routinely complain about some of the benefits the police unions have won over the years — the requirement of a police officer at any road work project, the overtime rules, and the pay raises for earning a college degree — any degree, from any college, even uncredited diploma mills.

    That do it for ya?

    J.

  24. EddieInCA says:

    Jay Tea –

    In Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker took away the collective barganing rights of all unions… except for those of the Police and Fire Depts.

    Why would that be? Why is one union better than any other union?

  25. @Jay Tea:

    As you stated Balko is a Libertarian, not a conservative. When I mention the right I mean conservatives. Libertarians don’t consider themselves apart of the US right wing. The right is predictably concerned with police abuse now because a Dem is in power their reactions pretty much mirror their concerns during the Clinton era but of course they flip on the “law and order” switch once Bubba left which will happen again when Obama is kicked out in 2012. Pardon me if Im skeptical for the conservative concern for government thug abuse.

    As for your conservatives in Mass example, they will be dismissed as Rhino’s or purged from their local parties as was the case for Republican Brian Miller of Arizona who did the actual brave thing and questioned the murder of Jose Guerena.

  26. WR says:

    @Forbidden Jimmy: Oh , dear, another Republican who loathes the idea of American citizens making more than minimum wage. Let me guess — Jimmy is a travelling salesman who listens to Rush while he’s on the road, desperately hoping to find people to whom he can feel superior.

  27. WR says:

    @Jay Tea: Oh, look, Jay Tea’s still alive. I guess he remembered to breathe for another 24 hours. America rejoices.

  28. WR says:

    @superdestroyer: Sorry, SD, but when you crawl out from under your bed and stop freaking out about all them scary dark people, you might be worth an answer. But you’re just another contemptible racist — more honest about it than Jay Tea, to be sure, but a loathesome little worm all the same. It’s nothing personal — it’s just that people who spend their llives trying to incite race hatred make me ill. Bye.

  29. WR says:

    @Jay Tea: Yeah, Republicans are really concerned about the police state — unless it’s turned on blacks or Hispanics.

    You’re all true civil libertarians — as long as it’s your liberty you’re worried about. Aside from that, bring on the concentration camps and “freedom zones.”

    Or were you the one Republican complaining about Bush’s “free speech zones”?

    Nah, I didn’t think so.

  30. Raoul says:

    The noise machine gets punked again-how utterly predictable.

  31. jukeboxgrad says:

    doug:

    “President Obama, this is your army. We are ready to march. Let’s take these son of bitches out and give America back to an America where we belong”

    This is what Hoffa actually said:

    President Obama, this is your army. We are ready to march. And, President Obama we want one thing – jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. That’s what we’re going to tell him. When he sees what we’re doing here he will be inspired. But he needs help. And, you know what. Everybody here’s gotta vote. If we go back and keep the eye on the prize, let’s take these son of a bitches out and give America back to America where we belong.

    The portion in italics is the portion that was removed from what you posted. He can be seen saying that here. Scroll to 1:30.

    Your video is deceptively edited, and so is the transcript you posted. Cutting out text without using an ellipsis is a form of lying. You need to post an update.

  32. Jeremy R says:

    @jukeboxgrad:

    Yup, Doug’s been had by Fox with both their transcript and video intentionally butchered for maximal effect. Not only a retraction would be good but perhaps also calling out Fox for blatantly misleading both him and his readership:

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/39121_Fox_News_Deceptively_Edits_Video_to_Smear_Teamsters_Pres._Hoffa

  33. Moderate Mom says:

    It seems like in Hoffa’s mind, only union members are “workers”. That must be a surprise to every person employed in the private sector that doesn’t belong to a union. What an asshat. And the President is an asshat too, for not denouncing Hoffa, since he was speaking at the President’s rally. With Obama, it really is all politics, all the time. Putting “Country First” my foot.

  34. Eric Florack says:

    By no means is it a new tone. All one needs do is look at the record of union violence and the no holds barred attitude of the left against Reagan, Bush and for that matter, anyone to the right of Castro.
    Which in turn is why I’ve always considered that the calls from Dems for bipartisanship can be found on any stable floor, though doubtless in smaller quantities.

  35. RW Rogers says:

    Doug: That’s a serious allegation upthread.

    It certainly calls into question your reliability as reporter of fact, not to mention how often you perform even minimal due diligence prior to publicly posting. Perhaps you need an editor.

  36. Jay Tea says:

    @EddieInCA: In Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker took away the collective barganing rights of all unions… except for those of the Police and Fire Depts.

    Wrong. Let me correct that:

    In Wisconsin, Gov. Scott Walker took away the collective barganing rights of all public sector unions… except for those of the Police and Fire Depts.

    Private sector unions (which, by the way, now represent less than half of total union membership) were utterly unaffected.

    Why were public safety unions excepted? You’d have to ask Walker and the Wisconsin Republicans why. I’d speculate, but that gives WR the vapors.

    Oh, what the hell. I’ll toss out some possibilities. (That means I don’t know if this is the right answer, and I’m not saying so, WR, just guessing.) Those unions have always demanded special treatment. The majority of police anf fire union members are most likely county and local employees, not state employees, so it’s less of a concern. The backers were pragmatists, and figured this is as far as they could get. The public safety unions have far better PR skills and tools than, say, the DMV workers. My hunch is it was a compromise decision.

    J.

  37. Jay Tea says:

    @New York Cynic: As for your conservatives in Mass example, they will be dismissed as Rhino’s or purged from their local parties as was the case for Republican Brian Miller of Arizona who did the actual brave thing and questioned the murder of Jose Guerena.

    Man, NY, do you NOT know the MA status. That’s understandable; we both neighbor the Bay State, but your state is a lot bigger, while mine’s smaller. Your state probably drowns out MA news, while we get lumped into the “Greater Boston” media market. But trust me — the loudest voice on this issue is talk show host (and newspaper columnist) Howie Carr, and he’s pretty solidly respected (if only for his influence through his readers and listeners). And every now and then, the vastly-outnumbered Republicans actually get something through the legislature on this matter.

    J.

  38. Jay Tea says:

    @WR: Personally speaking, I’m a 2nd Amendment militant who has never owned a gun and has no interest in ever owning a gun. I’m (squishily) pro-choice for whom that has been and never will be an issue, in any way, for me. And here in New Hampshire, it’s been the Democrats who’ve pushed (unsuccessfully) mandatory motorcycle helmet and car seat belt laws for adults, while it’s been the Republicans have kept the state’s role to saying “you’re a complete idiot if you don’t use them, but it’s your right to be a complete idiot.”

    Now back to your kennel, lickspittle.

    J.

  39. superdestroyer says:

    @WR:

    Then how do the unions reconcile their stated support for higher real wages and increased employment with their support for open borders and unlimited immigraiton.

    How does allowing an unlimited number of third world immigrants into the U.S. increase wages, improve the quality of life for Americans, or increase the number of jobs avaialble for Americans?

    The Unions seem to have to have an unlimited number or poor, uneducated hispanics who will automatically vote for Democrats and the support of Democrats in limiting the good paying jobs to unionized public sector workers.

    I guess screaming racist is easier than thinking about the economics of competing policy positions.

  40. Jay Tea says:

    @jukeboxgrad: Thanks for the full transcript. It’s quite helpful. And thank you, also, for getting Hoffa’s vulgarity correct — most people are saying he said “sons of bitches, while it’s clear that he said “son-of-a-bitches.” Must have been a crowded maternity ward…

    Anyway, you’re being a bit misleading. The objection isn’t that he isn’t inciting violence (a somewhat redundant concept when dealing with Teamsters), but that he’s using violent rhetoric. Of the kind that President Obama has condemned in the past:

    Aug 11, 2009: President Obama calls for civility in the health care debate.

    Feb 4, 2010: President Obama calls for civility at National Prayer Breakfast.

    Jan 12, 2011: President Obama calls for civility after Tucson shooting.

    And then President Obama comes out right after Hoffa and says he’s “proud” of him.

    THAT is the point, chum.

    J.

  41. Forbidden Jimmy says:

    @WR:

    What a typical comment form this ass! Can’t comment on the post and relies on ad hominum attacks to make a foolish point.

    When one makes idiotic ASSumptions about someone they do not know, they only make an ass of themselves but somehow I see WR as being comfortable being the part of the body that excretes waste.

  42. Forbidden Jimmy says:

    Afer reading the rest of WR’s ad hominum attacks and seeing that that is all it has, we can see why his type are losing elections all over.

    How sad to be someone who cannot discuss the issue instead of being an ASSumer.

  43. Eric Florack says:

    Perhaps it should be noted, that while Obama has been supposedly advocating for civility, he chose not to repudiate or mention that aspect of Hoffa’s remarks during his own remarks on the same stage. Tacit approval?

    And yes, I’m serious. Think…If this was Bush or Anyone to the right of center, we’d be hearing the left screaming exactly that. As it is, silence.

    Telling, that.

  44. Jay Tea says:

    @Forbidden Jimmy: To be fair, one reason why no one on WR’s side condemns him could be because they realize that he’s not worth discussing. Kind of like how I blip over some of superdestroyer’s more heated words. After all, I don’t recall anyone ever sticking up for WR, either.

    Hey, guys, if you have an “ignore WR comments” filter, can I have it, too?

    J.

  45. jukeboxgrad says:

    jay:

    Must have been a crowded maternity ward

    His usage is quite common. Here, let me google that for you.

    you’re being a bit misleading.

    As usual, the one “being a bit misleading” is you.

    The objection isn’t that he isn’t inciting violence (a somewhat redundant concept when dealing with Teamsters), but that he’s using violent rhetoric.

    I didn’t say anything about “inciting violence” or “violent rhetoric.” I simply pointed out what should be obvious: chopping out text and not replacing it with an ellipsis is a form of lying.

    By the way, I realize that you meant to say ‘the objection isn’t that he’s inciting violence.’ But that’s wrong. “Hoffa is clearly inciting violence, and should be arrested” happens to be the most popular choice at this WND poll.

  46. Jay Tea says:

    @jukeboxgrad: WND? Don’t go there. Er, I don’t go there. Once got a whiff of their birther drives, figured I’d stay away.

    As far as the grammar of the expletive, I agree it’s a common mistake. But I’m still going to mock it when I feel like it.

    The point you don’t address is that the left has talked about the Tea Party and other conservatives “inciting violence” and “using violent rhetoric” and whatnot, including Obama with his carefully timed and oh-so-selective “calls for civility.” It’s a noble sentiment, but for him to then come out after that and talk about how he’s “proud” of Hoffa… it shows a rather selective bit of sensitivity.

    J.

  47. jukeboxgrad says:

    it shows a rather selective bit of sensitivity

    Only if you’re looking at a falsified video and a falsified transcript.

  48. Jay Tea says:

    @jukeboxgrad: Plus, to think that union members might actually get violent isn’t that big an assumption — Michelle Malkin had a good roundup of union thuggery from the last year up, and then had to go back to amend it and include Hoffa’s little tirade.

    http://michellemalkin.com/2011/09/05/happy-labor-day-top-10-union-thug-moments-of-the-year/

    J.

  49. Jay Tea says:

    @jukeboxgrad: A falsified transcript? Either you’re misunderstanding me or confessing something you didn’t intend to — I was referring to your transcript. Note I complimented you on getting the “son-of-a-bitches” accurate.

    I’m not laying any traps for you here, not trying to start a flamewar, not playing any kind of games here. Any you might see are either your biases or my poor phrasings. For the latter, I apologize. For the former… understandable, considering our background, but not needed here.

    J.

  50. jukeboxgrad says:

    not playing any kind of games here

    But you are. What you’re conveniently ignoring is that Hoffa is indeed being accused of inciting violence. This accusation is based on a doctored video and transcript.

  51. Jay Tea says:

    @jukeboxgrad: I’m ignoring WND because that’s what I always do. I don’t give them any more credibility than I do Democratic Underground. You want me to go find their latest craziness and demand you denounce it?

    Or, a bit closer to home — WR used to howl about “Rick Perry murdered innocent people.” I shredded that (and him — not that it requires much), but I don’t recall you denouncing him for that.

    Nor should you be required to. It’d been nice if you had, but I’m not taking your silence as assent with his frothings.

    Should I?

    Besides, if there’s any group that doesn’t need “incitement” to get violent, it’s gotta be the unions.

    J.

  52. WR says:

    @Jay Tea: So, Jay, are you still in favor of Rick Perry if he’s only murdered one innocent person? You’ve never answered that. How many innocents does Perry have to put to death before it causes you to wonder if he’s fit to lead the nation?

  53. jukeboxgrad says:

    jay:

    I’m ignoring WND because that’s what I always do

    What you “always do” is ignore all inconvenient facts. Hundreds of readers there made “inciting violence” their top choice. That’s a bit tough to ignore.

    By the way, do you also ignore wizbang? Because one of your pals there is talking about “Hoffa’s inciting opening remarks,” and how Democrats are supposedly “encouraging thuggery.”

    And do you also ignore Flopping Aces? Even though they have been cited at wizbang hundreds of times? Because they said “Hoffa Incites Riots And Murder.”

    So if you want to stick with your phony claim that Hoffa is not being accused of inciting violence, you need to do a lot of “ignoring” in addition to just “ignoring WND.”

    You want me to go find their latest craziness and demand you denounce it?

    As usual, you’re trying to relocate the goalposts. This isn’t about anyone demanding that you “denounce” something. This is about your false claim that Hoffa is not being accused of inciting violence.

  54. Jay Tea says:

    I’m actually working on my own Wizbang piece on Hoffa — along with one on the Postal Service, based in part on discussions here.

    Your point is not a substantive error, but one of degree. No one disputes that Hoffa used violent rhetoric, precisely of the sort that Obama and a lot of other liberals condemned. And some I’ve read have said it sarcastically, echoing the terms to describe the words of conservatives and Tea Partiers. The main point — at least to me, and the one you want to dodge — is that Obama has made a point of decrying such words when they come from his political opponents, but is “proud” of his supporters that say essentially the same thing.

    J.

  55. Herb says:

    @Jay Tea: The hypocrite point is valid, but I think you’re overestimating the shock value of a hypocritical politician.

    So the president is a hypocrite….what’s new? Aren’t they all?

  56. Jay Tea says:

    @Herb: No, Obama’s different. He’s better than all the rest. That’s what we were sold on back in 2008, remember?

    J.

  57. Neo says:

    Hoffa speaks volumes

  58. Moosebreath says:

    And on the other hand, the Koch brothers refer to Obama as Saddam Hussein, and promise the mother of all wars for 2012. Now there’s a new tone for you!

  59. Jay Tea says:

    @Moosebreath: Interesting article there, Moose. Certain key words jump out at me:

    “Apparently”

    “Likely”

    “A source”

    They’re really going out on a limb there…

    And the Koches have spent $100 million on politics? Two questions — how much have they given to non-political charities, and how does $100 million stack up against what George Soros has spent?

    I understand that a big part of your side’s strategy is to keep the other side from playing the same game by the same rules, but come on — you gotta at least TRY to look fair.

    J.

  60. Moosebreath says:

    Jay Tea,

    Funny how fast you run from the actual topic of this thread — the use of violent rhetoric to demonize one’s political opponents.

  61. jukeboxgrad says:

    jay tea:

    No one disputes that Hoffa used violent rhetoric

    In your typically disingenuous style, you’re completely ducking the issue I raised. What you tried to say is that ‘the objection isn’t that he’s inciting violence.’ That claim is false. For many of your ideological pals, that is precisely the objection. Trouble is, that objection stems from a doctored video.

  62. mantis says:

    No one disputes that Hoffa used violent rhetoric

    I dispute that. “Sons of bitches” (or “Son of a bitches”) is not violent rhetoric. “Taking them out” referred to voting them out. Again, not violent.

    President Obama, this is your army. We are ready to march. And, President Obama we want one thing – jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. That’s what we’re going to tell him. When he sees what we’re doing here he will be inspired. But he needs help. And, you know what. Everybody here’s gotta vote. If we go back and keep the eye on the prize, let’s take these son of a bitches out and give America back to America where we belong.

    Where is the violent rhetoric? It’s not there (unless you selectively edit, something Doug apparently approves of).

  63. Jay Tea says:

    @mantis: The “Army” he was alleging to wasn’t exactly the Salvation Army, or Tom Lehrer’s Folk Song Army.

    The mafia has a very specific meaning behind “take them out,” and the mafia and the Teamsters ain’t exactly perfect strangers.

    But like I said at Wizbang, he wasn’t inciting violence. This is the Teamsters. That’s their default. You have to incite them to NOT be violent.

    J.

  64. mantis says:

    The “Army” he was alleging to wasn’t exactly the Salvation Army, or Tom Lehrer’s Folk Song Army.

    No, it was an army of voters, as is very clear.

    The mafia has a very specific meaning behind “take them out,” and the mafia and the Teamsters ain’t exactly perfect strangers.

    The mafia uses elections to “take people out?” Because that’s what he was clearly talking to.

    But like I said at Wizbang, he wasn’t inciting violence. This is the Teamsters. That’s their default. You have to incite them to NOT be violent.

    Yes, because the country is awash in union violence. Except that it isn’t. Not even close. Take your imaginary boogeymen and play with them over at your swamp. They aren’t scary to people who exist in reality.

  65. RW Rogers says:

    No correction of the misquoted record published record yet. Just another hit-and-run piece of dubious origin, so why bother indeed? The site need for an active editor is becoming obvious. Shame that.

  66. jukeboxgrad says:

    No correction of the misquoted record published record yet.

    I often like what Doug says, but unfortunately he seems to have an ongoing problem with misquoting people. He also misrepresented what Warren Buffett said. In both instances, no correction or update.

  67. Jay Tea says:

    @mantis: Apparently, you missed Michelle Malkin’s roundup of the Top Ten Examples Of Union Thuggery of the past year:

    http://michellemalkin.com/2011/09/05/happy-labor-day-top-10-union-thug-moments-of-the-year/

    There are none so blind as those who will not see…

    J.

  68. mantis says:

    Apparently, you missed Michelle Malkin’s roundup of the Top Ten Examples Of Union Thuggery of the past year:

    No, I didn’t. All that post did was reveal how incredibly weak the wingnut claim of rampant union violence is. Let’s look at the list. Of Malkin’s “Top Ten,” only two are actual physical altercations (really, one and a half, since the second example provides no proof of physical contact). The rest are just protesters saying mean and/or stupid things. If you’re going to make claims about violence, you should be able to back it up with more than this weak sauce.

    – One protester shoves a camera out of his face.
    – A video that does not actually show Fox News reporter Mike Tobin getting hit at the Wisconsin protests. He says “some guy just hit me” in a crowded scene with the camera pointed elsewhere.

    Now you claim that Teamsters are violent by default, but even Malkin’s scrupulously compiled list of examples only shows one physical act, and that is merely pushing a camera that was clearly right in the guy’s face. That’s your argument? Where’s the rampant Teamster violence you are referring to? Where are the beatings and riots?

    Or is it just another case of you wingnuts being completely full of shit, manufacturing silly stories to tell the rest of the wingnut dipshits who will believe pretty much anything, regardless of reality? You don’t need to answer. It’s quite clear which one it is.

  69. Jay Tea says:

    @mantis: Fun trivia question:

    1) Who put Jimmy Hoffa Sr. in prison?

    2) Who pardoned him, and let him get back into the Teamsters?

    J.

  70. Jay Tea says:

    @Moosebreath: Hey, Moose, turns out Mother Jones was not only wrong, but might have edited their tape to misrepresent what was really said:

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0911/Koch_Hussein_Obama.html?showall

    “We have, as Saddam Hussein [said] this is the Mother of All Wars,” Koch is quoting Saddam, rather than making a comparison between him and Obama.

    So… what was your point again in bringing this up?

    J.

  71. mantis says:

    @Jay Tea:

    Another fun trivia question:

    Q: What does Jay Tea do when it’s been shown that his arguments are silly, stupid, and/or based in a fantasy world?

    A: Change the subject!

    At least you’re consistent.

    Oh, and to answer your question.

    1) Bobby Kennedy
    2) Nobody (Richard Nixon commuted his sentence, though.)

    So what?

  72. Jay Tea says:

    @mantis: mantis, still a lot more unpleasant than have been done by the Teamsters’ “enemy,” who they’re waging war against, the Tea Party.

    And the Teamsters are, I believe, still operating under the 1989 Consent Decree that they accepted to avoid a RICO conviction. Which didn’t stop them from pulling a nice little money-laundering scam with the Clinton re-election campaign in 1996.

    And any comment about Mike Capuano, at a pro-Wisconsin public employees union rally,who said the following to loud cheers?

    “This is going to be a struggle at least for the next two years. Let’s be serious about this. They’re not going to back down and we’re not going to back down. This is a struggle for the hearts and minds of America,” Capuano said, referring to the Tea Party counter-protestors as a “couple of nuts in the background.”

    “I’m proud to be here with people who understand that it’s more than just sending an email to get you going. Every once and awhile you need to get out on the streets and get a little bloody when necessary,” he continued.

    Blood in the streets. Metaphorically speaking, I’m sure.

    J.

  73. jukeboxgrad says:

    That was months ago, and he apologized promptly. We’ll see if Doug apologizes for misquoting Hoffa.

  74. Jay Tea says:

    @jukeboxgrad: Oh, he apologized? I’m sorry, that makes it all better.

    Tell me, when was the last time a conservative who overran his mouth apologized, and had it accepted? How many times did George “Macaca” Allen apologize? How many times did he say he didn’t even know the meaning of it, just thought it was a nickname?

    Capuano said it, he owns it, no takesy-backs.

    You want to demand forgiveness for your allies? Start by granting it to your foes.

    J.

  75. jukeboxgrad says:

    Oh, he apologized? I’m sorry, that makes it all better.

    Yes, it does. And it’s no surprise that you don’t understand the importance of taking responsibility for what you say, because this site is packed with examples of you getting caught inventing facts and then refusing to take responsibility for doing so. The concept of taking responsibility is foreign to you, so of course you have trouble understanding what it means when someone else does it.

    when was the last time a conservative who overran his mouth apologized, and had it accepted?

    When they get caught saying something they shouldn’t say, conservatives generally don’t apologize. You’re a perfect example.

    Here’s another perfect example: after Cheney told Leahy “go fuck yourself” on the Senate floor, he specifically said he didn’t “have any regrets.”

    On the other hand, on the rare occasions when a conservative apologizes, that apology is usually accepted, unless it’s obviously insincere.

    How many times did George “Macaca” Allen apologize? How many times did he say he didn’t even know the meaning of it, just thought it was a nickname?

    And that’s a nice example of an insincere apology. The “just thought it was a nickname” alibi is a transparent lie, because he also said “I had never heard that word before.” He also nailed shut his own coffin when he said that someone who mentioned his Jewish heritage was “making aspersions.”

    So there are some good reasons why Allen’s apologies were not seen as sincere.

    You want to demand forgiveness for your allies? Start by granting it to your foes.

    Try showing us an example of a conservative delivering a sincere apology. You haven’t done that yet.

  76. Davod says:

    I don’t understand the rush to hide Mr. Hoffa’s words. He doesn’t think he needs to defend them.

    Hoffa’s tone accords perfectly with the liberal drumbeat about the Tea Party and anyone who dares to offer a contrary view of the way ahead.

    What with his weekly visits to, and constant phone contact with, the White House, Mr. Hoffa is perfectly placed to reflect the White Houses approach to working with the public.

    After all, he is just preaching the “get in their faces” ” if they bring a knife we bring a gun” mentality of the White House. Of course, its only hyperbole.

  77. Jay Tea says:

    @Davod: Hey, remember when Obama told bankers that he was the only one standing between them and the pitchforks? Now we know just who has the pitchforks — his biggest supporters.

    J.

  78. Moosebreath says:

    Jay Tea,

    “So… what was your point again in bringing this up?”

    As noted above, “the use of violent rhetoric to demonize one’s political opponents.” Or do you think referring to political campaigns as “the mother of all wars” is not violent rhetoric?

  79. Jay Tea says:

    @Moosebreath: You betray your youth, Moose. That phrase is a JOKE. It came from the first Gulf War, where Saddam promised that if the US attacked him, it would provoke “the mother of all battles.” Instead, we spent a little over a month waging an air war, then totally wiped him up with a ground campaign that lasted 100 hours — and ended with absolutely nothing between our forces and Baghdad.

    It just occurred to me that it’s been 20 years since Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Wow. Damn, I feel old…

    Anyway, go educate yourself a little, Moose. I’m sure the people Koch made the remark to were old enough and educated enough to get the reference. You weren’t the target demographic.

    J.

  80. Moosebreath says:

    Jay Tea,

    Thanks for the so-called history lesson, but I hadn’t realized there was an exception to using violent rhetoric when you think to yourself that you are joking. So if I say that Jay Tea should get his brains beat out, but I am only joking, that’s totally all right with you.

    Or as my mother used to say, it’s all fun and games until someone’s eye gets poked out.

  81. Jay Tea says:

    @Moosebreath: Context, Moose. Look it up.

    “We have, as Saddam Hussein [said] this is the Mother of All Wars.”

    That wasn’t just humor, it was self-deprecating humor. Saddam pronounced that just before one of the most one-sided ass-kickings in history. Koch was likening himself to Saddam. Saddam promised that and to drown his enemies in their own blood and totally massacre all who opposed him.

    Final tally: Iraqi casualties between 20,000 and 35,000 KIA, 75,000 WIA. Coalition casualties: 392 killed, 776 wounded. Just to make it even more one-sided: 55 of the Coalition casualties — one in seven, roughly — were from friendly fire accidents, so Saddam didn’t even get credit for that.

    I repeat: Koch was likening his position to Saddam’s in that situation. And I am quite sure that the people he was speaking to were far more aware of that — being, presumably, far older and more educated and experienced — than you.

    You didn’t understand it. Big whoop — you weren’t the target audience. His reference went right over your head, much like he’d probably go “huh?” over a “F’shizzle.”

    Being young and ignorant is no great sin. Both are curable. Demanding that everyone else cater to your shortcomings — especially when you’re not present, and only find out what was being said because someone released a tape that the recorded parties did not consent to — is truly arrogant. “How dare you speak in a way I don’t understand when I’m eavesdropping on you!”

    J.

  82. Moosebreath says:

    Jay Tea,

    Way to miss my point. Again. And Again.

    Also, to repeatedly (and wrongly) assume my age based upon no information whatsoever. Just keep making stuff out of your rump — that’s the sort of thing that always convinces people.

  83. Jay Tea says:

    @Moosebreath: Actually, Moose, I was assuming your youth as a favor to you. If you’re old enough to have lived through the first Gulf War and NOT know the whole “mother of all” joke, then you’re confessing some rather appalling ignorance.

    Should I apologize for giving you the benefit of the doubt, and excusing your ignorance? If so, then I profoundly apologize for not assuming you were just young, and not an idiot.

    J.

  84. Moosebreath says:

    No, you should apologize for assuming it’s OK to joke using violent rhetoric for political purposes when your side does it, but not the other side. But that would require you to have integrity.

  85. Jay Tea says:

    @Moosebreath: Bite me, dumbass.

    Or is that too violent?

    J.

  86. Moosebreath says:

    “Bite me, dumbass.”

    What a clever argument that is. You have just convinced that my entire worldview was wrong.

  87. Jay Tea says:

    @Moosebreath: Consider it my way of saying I’m tired of explaining the difference between a public speech by the leader of a historically violent group talking about “taking out” their political enemies, and a “we’re gonna get massacred” private quip amongst people who, unlike you, have a clue what the reference means.

    I mean, I said “if you don’t get it, you’re either very young or very stupid,” and you insisted you weren’t young. What’s left to say?

    J.

  88. Moosebreath says:

    “What’s left to say?”

    Two other possibilities come to mind. One is that you simply are unable to understand what you read. Many people above have noted that the non-Fox edited quote from Hoffa specifically refers to the electoral process. Or in other words, your complaint about them only makes sense if you ignore what he actually said in favor of what Fox wants you to believe he said.

    On the other hand, the Koch quote is undoubtedly referring to the upcoming campaign as “the mother of all wars”. Whether he was quoting Saddam Hussein or not (and the only dispute in the Politico article you cite is whether he was comparing Obama to Saddam or just quoting him), he still describes at the upcoming campaign as a political war. And one strongly doubts he is spending tens of millions to lose it. Again, you seem unable to accept that he was specifically and intentionally using the rhetoric of violence for what is supposed to be peaceable elections. And he is at least as guilty of doing so as Hoffa.

    The other possibility is that you are just a hack who will parrot anything told to you by your party. I leave it to you to explain which you are.

  89. Jay Tea says:

    @Moosebreath: Pretty much anyone with a clue knows that the phrase “mother of all XX” is put forth as a joke. Because Saddam said it so earnestly, and so thoroughly got his ass kicked, it became a cliche’ for most of the 90’s and beyond. Hell, the Air Force got into the act; they created a huge, massive fuel-air explosive bomb and called it the MOAB. The official definition was “Massive Ordnance, Air Burst,” but everyone all but admitted it was “Mother Of All Bombs.”

    On the other hand, we’re talking about unions. I understand that they have absolutely no history of violence and thuggery, and their “work actions” consist of sitting around and singing Kumbaya, but every now and then they do get a wee bit out of hand and maybe kinda sorta beat or club or shoot those who cross their picket lines. Just a little, but you know how these things get blown out of proportion…

    J.

  90. Moosebreath says:

    I see you went for both of the above. Well played.

  91. Jay Tea says:

    Oh, and back on topic: I wonder what Jimmy Hoffa thinks about the strike going on at the docks in the Northwest?

    At least 500 longshoremen stormed the Port of Longview about 4:30 a.m. and broke out windows in the guard shack, according to Longview Police Chief Jim Duscha. As longshoremen wielding baseball bats and crowbars held six guards hostage, others cut brake lines on box cars and dumped grain, according to Duscha.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016144477_longshoremen09m.html

    No, I don’t think they were answering the call from Hoffa. For one, they’re part of the AFL-CIO, and Hoffa’s head of the Teamsters. For another, as I said several times, unions don’t need to be encouraged to be violent. As you can see, they do just fine on their own.

    Which makes Hoffa’s statement as possibly interpreted as a threat, reminding folks just what unions do when they don’t get their way…

    J.

  92. jukeboxgrad says:

    jay tea:

    Pretty much anyone with a clue knows that the phrase “mother of all XX” is put forth as a joke.

    It takes only a very small amount of effort to find out that there are many, many examples of that phrase being used as a non-joke. And the non-joke meaning tends to be much more common than the joke meaning.

    And this is also confirmed here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_mother_of_all

    Which means that the joke is you.